Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[NKDG]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

thats not an element of ballance , weapons wer made for making killing easyer , if you add self damage to tonkor every 1 , Every 1 , is just going to move Right over to simulor , it dont damage u , it deals almost the same High output damage , and u dont have to aim , ppl with no skill will always have no skill . changing weapons they use will only make it to where they have to find a new weapon to no skill , nerfing isnt the answer . rebalancing other weapons to be as strong as tonkor or better is what we need to be thinking of now 

 

How do you see the baseline of difficulty in this game? I see a game that should promote skill and as such I use weapons that promote skill over cheese. Tonkor/Synnoid simulor are the poster boys of cheese, they should be less cheesy in my opinion. As much as I hate soma p, I believe that's where the high tier weapons should be balanced around, as it does high damage but requires even a little skill to use (you have to look at the enemy at least) in a better version of this game if you want a no-skill weapon, take soma p, as it should be the closest to no skill you could get. However, Timmy Tonkor and Sammy Synnoid Simulor need some sort of changes in order to remove the aspect of no-skill cheese in terms of guns. Also, take away enough shadows, and you'll get people comin into the light eventually. It will take a while, but it's worth it. 

 

FYI, there have been many threads asking for what you want: less self damage on launchers, but DE has stated the self damage stays. Why does this weapon get to be an outlier? God only knows and it should be brought back into the group of risk/reward launchers. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[Irorone]

1 minute ago, NKDG said:

I'll just point out a few things here:

A: risk v reward can involve skill. (analogy time) a clown on a dunking booth says he'll give you 10 dollars if you can dunk him. Thus, you pay the man up front 5 dollars for the three balls. You're risking 5 dollars on your skill with throwing a baseball for a gain of 5 dollars. It requires skill to hit that target, and you're putting it to the test with some both a risk and reward at play for success/failure. (Unlikely analogy i know, but it proves my point and works)

B: if we don't keep everything on some sort of baseline of balance, the new content will either be trivial or powercreeped, which is either bad for business or agonizing for players respectively. 

C: Balance in pve is the same as balance in pvp. The definition isn't subjective in this case, just the degree. It just means all weapons/classes have a similar degree of viability. If one has a significantly higher degree of viability, it should be rebalanced back to the parameters of viability that the other weapons have. 

D: This is more like calling the tonkor black when it should be grey. Solution? Add some white (in this case remove the self damage cap) until it reaches the shade of grey it should be. 

E: An opinion is simply saying its op. A fact is saying its an outlier that must be remedied. Granted, the degree of space between the outlier and the rest of the points until it becomes an outlier is subjective, and that's where the contention lies. That's why we need some sort of baseline (in this case other launchers) to compare it to. Let's do that shall we? Other launchers have an uncapped self damage. Tonkor does not.

 

A.  Irony is you literally just used a gambling example and in regards to "skill" in that example you'll notice how you said your betting your skill but surprised I don't think they're gonna let you put your giant funnel in the basket just because you happened to have it on hand.  Your example literally excludes the concept of player gear.

b.  Structure? yes.  Baseline? no.  biggest reason a "baseline" in this example is we already have several types of weapons in the same categories some with unique tweaks and "baselining" could be HORRIBLE when you consider what some of these balancing tweaks would do to certain subtypes in this case crit weapons vs. raw damage.  Why use tonkor if it's gonna have the same baseline as ogris or a penta? None actually LESS than none since a penta can detonate multiple projectiles at once on a crowd and an ogris doesn't need to reload as often.

c. AHAHAHA no.  Balance in pve is VERY different from balance in pvp.  In pve we can slaughter hundreds nay THOUSANDS and not a single complaint.  In pvp you'd have screams of hacks and exploits across three continents with that kind of k/d.  Similar degree of viability is ALSO extremely subjective when you consider that they try to fill different functions AND themes.  This just falls back into nerf one item vs. buffing the others, and while nerfing is easier to implement it tends to piss off the player base more i.e. Diablo 3 and nerfing the attack speed stat by HALF back in the day "because too good".

d.  Self damage i'd be fine with, I'd miss the rocket jumps but they weren't an integral part of what made tonkor, tonkor.  What OTHERS are suggesting in this thread are nerfing the damage which is the big reason to even use the tonkor over penta/ogris.

e. again only thing you're mentioning here is the self damage, others in the thread have LOUDLY said they wanted the damage nerf ala brakk (when's the last time you've seen that rank 30 in someone's loadout these days hrm?).  Nerfing something because it's popular is also insane, I didn't agree with the greedy mag pull nerf since that power was not op in a damage or even a utility sense it was nerfed purely because it was the most used power (notice how nobody uses THAT anymore either).  Just because you see it a lot, see it used a lot DOES NOT MEAN IT NEEDS NERFED. 

[IRVoidGuru]

4 minutes ago, NKDG said:

How do you see the baseline of difficulty in this game? I see a game that should promote skill and as such I use weapons that promote skill over cheese. Tonkor/Synnoid simulor are the poster boys of cheese, they should be less cheesy in my opinion. As much as I hate soma p, I believe that's where the high tier weapons should be balanced around, as it does high damage but requires even a little skill to use (you have to look at the enemy at least) in a better version of this game if you want a no-skill weapon, take soma p, as it should be the closest to no skill you could get. However, Timmy Tonkor and Sammy Synnoid Simulor need some sort of changes in order to remove the aspect of no-skill cheese in terms of guns. Also, take away enough shadows, and you'll get people comin into the light eventually. It will take a while, but it's worth it. 

difficulty in a game should be optional , and with that being said since there is no means of doing so in options , it should be something determinable by your Equiptments and mods , there will ALWAYS be ppl who no skill , no matter what weapons or frames u change it will always be so , its a free game , we gadda get used to no skill players . 

[Irorone]

14 minutes ago, NKDG said:

But this promotes skill. It won't kill the weapon, it'll weed out those who liked it cause "noob tube F*** everyone else, let's point-blank a launcher" from those who actually like the weapon cause it's fun. Now there's appropriate risk for your reward of high damage, what's wrong with that? I'd gladly trade in my secura penta and start using tonkor if that element of balance was added. 

It promotes not using the weapon which is the actual effect of nerfing this while I don't mind the self damage tweak, I get tired of everybody hating on a weapon just because it's GOOD.  Also the self damage thing isn't the ONLY nerf being thrown around it's also the damage nerf output nerf (because some people here can't aim enough to kill a few between tonkor reloads).  "Balancing" one weapon won't do jack for anybody cuz what'll happen?  Change to the new flavor of the week till THAT gets nerfed for being an outlier?  Change to another weapon type altogether and again MORE PEOPLE SCREAMING FOR NERFS ON THAT?  "Balancing" as I've seen 90% of people explain involves taking everything to a baseline HOMOGENIZING the entire experience taking up dev resources that could be used on new content, which is why myself among others are fed up with nerf threads, easy mode complaints, and general complaints about powerful weapons being powerful. 

P.S. It's PVE as well, literally only things that could complain about the current state of things and actually have clear, understandable reasons for wanting change would be the enemies we're slaughtering wholesale.

[IRVoidGuru]

12 minutes ago, Irorone said:

It promotes not using the weapon which is the actual effect of nerfing this while I don't mind the self damage tweak, I get tired of everybody hating on a weapon just because it's GOOD.  Also the self damage thing isn't the ONLY nerf being thrown around it's also the damage nerf output nerf (because some people here can't aim enough to kill a few between tonkor reloads).  "Balancing" one weapon won't do jack for anybody cuz what'll happen?  Change to the new flavor of the week till THAT gets nerfed for being an outlier?  Change to another weapon type altogether and again MORE PEOPLE SCREAMING FOR NERFS ON THAT?  "Balancing" as I've seen 90% of people explain involves taking everything to a baseline HOMOGENIZING the entire experience taking up dev resources that could be used on new content, which is why myself among others are fed up with nerf threads, easy mode complaints, and general complaints about powerful weapons being powerful. 

P.S. It's PVE as well, literally only things that could complain about the current state of things and actually have clear, understandable reasons for wanting change would be the enemies we're slaughtering wholesale.

a perfect way of saying it , other then then P.S . i have no clue what u wer tryin to say , but i do agree nerfing this weapon is a waste of resorces , it is fine as it is , and if u dont like it no 1 asked u to use it , or even like it for that matter . but why go out of your way to ruin it for others when every 1 who uses it commonly finds it to be fine , heck i use it rarely and i dont find any issue with it . i think the problem here is ppl see others getting things done "easyer" then they are and they cant stand it. some ppl have different ways of playing but i think instead of trashing what is already a magnificent weapon , and then moving on to simulor witch if tonkor gets nerfed is OBVIOUSLY ! next , lets buff other weapons and make then want to be more powerful like tonkor and simulor , this would open up the game for a new starting high end enemy lvl , perhaps even a difficulty like  (example only ) tower 5 

Edited April 3, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[NKDG]

13 minutes ago, Irorone said:

A.  Irony is you literally just used a gambling example and in regards to "skill" in that example you'll notice how you said your betting your skill but surprised I don't think they're gonna let you put your giant funnel in the basket just because you happened to have it on hand.  Your example literally excludes the concept of player gear.

b.  Structure? yes.  Baseline? no.  biggest reason a "baseline" in this example is we already have several types of weapons in the same categories some with unique tweaks and "baselining" could be HORRIBLE when you consider what some of these balancing tweaks would do to certain subtypes in this case crit weapons vs. raw damage.  Why use tonkor if it's gonna have the same baseline as ogris or a penta? None actually LESS than none since a penta can detonate multiple projectiles at once on a crowd and an ogris doesn't need to reload as often.

c. AHAHAHA no.  Balance in pve is VERY different from balance in pvp.  In pve we can slaughter hundreds nay THOUSANDS and not a single complaint.  In pvp you'd have screams of hacks and exploits across three continents with that kind of k/d.  Similar degree of viability is ALSO extremely subjective when you consider that they try to fill different functions AND themes.  This just falls back into nerf one item vs. buffing the others, and while nerfing is easier to implement it tends to piss off the player base more i.e. Diablo 3 and nerfing the attack speed stat by HALF back in the day "because too good".

d.  Self damage i'd be fine with, I'd miss the rocket jumps but they weren't an integral part of what made tonkor, tonkor.  What OTHERS are suggesting in this thread are nerfing the damage which is the big reason to even use the tonkor over penta/ogris.

e. again only thing you're mentioning here is the self damage, others in the thread have LOUDLY said they wanted the damage nerf ala brakk (when's the last time you've seen that rank 30 in someone's loadout these days hrm?).  Nerfing something because it's popular is also insane, I didn't agree with the greedy mag pull nerf since that power was not op in a damage or even a utility sense it was nerfed purely because it was the most used power (notice how nobody uses THAT anymore either).  Just because you see it a lot, see it used a lot DOES NOT MEAN IT NEEDS NERFED. 

A: Then is a gambling simulator a bad thing? Your idea of a gambling simulator is there's a risk and a reward. Isn't that almost any video game weapon ever? Shotguns have high damage. That damage falls off at long range. That's risk/reward. Full auto rifles are reliably good with sustained damage. They are generally pretty ammo hungry and can run outta ammo when you need it. That's risk/reward. Like it or not, risk/reward lies in everything, and removing the risk removed much of the sense of accomplishment.

B: I argue for a baseline with the understanding there will be an acceptable amount of deviation on any given weapon(so I guess I call it baseline, but it's technically a structure). The tonkor oversteps that deviation by having a capped self damage. That needs to be fixed. While it is true that it is subjective that the degree of deviation, having set parameters for each extremity is a good way to promote objectivity (for me, soma p is what the top tier weaponry shouldn't surpass and regular braton is what lower tier weaponry shouldn't surpass in terms of viability). Tonkor surpasses soma p just on the fact that it does no self damage. 

C: yes, there's a different level of FEEDBACK from a pvp game, but it still requires the same finesse of keeping weapons in a set range of usefulness. If a weapon doesn't have a drawback that the rest of the weapons in its group has but has all of the upsides, you now have killed balance as it exceeds the usefulness range. If a weapon does multiples of damage compared to the previous best weapons in that group (lookin at you too-broken war and powercreep prime) something must be done to balance (I still say lower attack speed in both those cases) thus, you encourage weapon diversity and discourage the thought of new weapon = best weapon (powercreep)

D/E: Welp... I don't really know why they advocate damage nerf... It does great damage yes, but if there was that drawback, I would give no craps about it. Thus, I only advocate removing the self damage cap.

 

[Irorone]

6 minutes ago, NKDG said:

A: Then is a gambling simulator a bad thing? Your idea of a gambling simulator is there's a risk and a reward. Isn't that almost any video game weapon ever? Shotguns have high damage. That damage falls off at long range. That's risk/reward. Full auto rifles are reliably good with sustained damage. They are generally pretty ammo hungry and can run outta ammo when you need it. That's risk/reward. Like it or not, risk/reward lies in everything, and removing the risk removed much of the sense of accomplishment.

B: I argue for a baseline with the understanding there will be an acceptable amount of deviation on any given weapon(so I guess I call it baseline, but it's technically a structure). The tonkor oversteps that deviation by having a capped self damage. That needs to be fixed. While it is true that it is subjective that the degree of deviation, having set parameters for each extremity is a good way to promote objectivity (for me, soma p is what the top tier weaponry shouldn't surpass and regular braton is what lower tier weaponry shouldn't surpass in terms of viability). Tonkor surpasses soma p just on the fact that it does no self damage. 

C: yes, there's a different level of FEEDBACK from a pvp game, but it still requires the same finesse of keeping weapons in a set range of usefulness. If a weapon doesn't have a drawback that the rest of the weapons in its group has but has all of the upsides, you now have killed balance as it exceeds the usefulness range. If a weapon does multiples of damage compared to the previous best weapons in that group (lookin at you too-broken war and powercreep prime) something must be done to balance (I still say lower attack speed in both those cases) thus, you encourage weapon diversity and discourage the thought of new weapon = best weapon (powercreep)

D/E: Welp... I don't really know why they advocate damage nerf... It does great damage yes, but if there was that drawback, I would give no craps about it. Thus, I only advocate removing the self damage cap.

 

A. Yes, when you consider that warframe's supposed to be a third person action game.  Risk reward is a function usable in the game but it is by no means core.  That's skill not risk.  That's what we call a weapon trait >_>.  Again player skill not risk in the ammo management department, also ammo mutation mods preparation AND skill before risk in that example.  Tell that to asura's wrath when I basically kenshiro'd a giant space buddha knockoff not all entertainment in a game is in the payoff.

B.  I've also said that I wouldn't mind the self damage tweak myself but now you're comparing apples to oranges with that soma p comparison. 

C.  You don't encourage diversity by nerfing one option.  You encourage diversity by offering OTHER options >_>.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Irorone
Weird text rollover

[NKDG]

22 minutes ago, Irorone said:

It promotes not using the weapon which is the actual effect of nerfing this while I don't mind the self damage tweak, I get tired of everybody hating on a weapon just because it's GOOD.  Also the self damage thing isn't the ONLY nerf being thrown around it's also the damage nerf output nerf (because some people here can't aim enough to kill a few between tonkor reloads).  "Balancing" one weapon won't do jack for anybody cuz what'll happen?  Change to the new flavor of the week till THAT gets nerfed for being an outlier?  Change to another weapon type altogether and again MORE PEOPLE SCREAMING FOR NERFS ON THAT?  "Balancing" as I've seen 90% of people explain involves taking everything to a baseline HOMOGENIZING the entire experience taking up dev resources that could be used on new content, which is why myself among others are fed up with nerf threads, easy mode complaints, and general complaints about powerful weapons being powerful. 

P.S. It's PVE as well, literally only things that could complain about the current state of things and actually have clear, understandable reasons for wanting change would be the enemies we're slaughtering wholesale.

For me, I only follow behind balancing broken mechanics for now unless they're such outliers it's not even funny (broken war nikana p). The broken invis system, almost nonexistent self damage on tonkor, etc. Fixing damage right now is like treating a headache from a lethal poison you're about to get the antidote for. The situation is about to change (dmg 3.0 in this case) why are you trying to fix symptoms right before applying the antidote? Makes no sense, as those symptoms will go away when you're cured. However, if there's a problem not linked to the poison, this should be fixed. This is a mechanical flaw in the weapon. Bringing everything up to the outlier of reduced risk would ruin the launcher for me, as no risk = no sense of accomplishment. PS: ai still sux, but at least it's improving day by day. 

[NKDG]

11 minutes ago, Irorone said:

A. Yes, when you consider that warframe's supposed to be a third person action game.  Risk reward is a function usable in the game but it is by no means core.  That's skill not risk.  That's what we call a weapon trait >_>.  Again player skill not risk in the ammo management department, also ammo mutation mods preparation AND skill before risk in that example.  Tell that to asura's wrath when I basically kenshiro'd a giant space buddha knockoff not all entertainment in a game is in the payoff.

B.  I've also said that I wouldn't mind the self damage tweak myself but now you're comparing apples to oranges with that soma p comparison. 

C.  You don't encourage diversity by nerfing one option.  You encourage diversity by offering OTHER options >_>.

I'll start off by saying this: I only advocate for uncapped self damage. I don't care what others are advocating for, this is the only thing I am advocating.

 

A: then the self damage on launchers is a weapon trait. I don't understand how this is different, other than the fact you're required a higher degree of skill. You can burst fire with assault rifles (requires skill) to lower the downside. You can get close with a shotty(requires skill) to lower the downside. You can take care of your aim and avoid getting caught in the blast (requires skill) to lower the downside. 

B: I mean in terms of effectiveness(as stated previously), which is on an apples to apples scale, albeit a bit more subjective. 

C: if one choice is far superior or far inferior to the others, it should be brought to the level of the others to encourage diversity. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[Robm]

On 3/14/2016 at 6:14 PM, ----Fenrir---- said:

Please no self damage. Every time a stupid teammate runs in front of you, you die... The Tonkor is the only explosive weapon I use precisely for that reason.

This, this is the only reason I use the Tonkor over every other explosive weapon. It would make the weapon instant mastery fodder. Then everyone will complain about the next weapon and so and so for, actually while on the topic. Let's remove the other self damage from the other explosive weapons so people will use them. 

[NKDG]

3 minutes ago, Robm said:

This, this is the only reason I use the Tonkor over every other explosive weapon. It would make the weapon instant mastery fodder. Then everyone will complain about the next weapon and so and so for, actually while on the topic. Let's remove the other self damage from the other explosive weapons so people will use them. 

Why are launchers affected by friendly fire in the first place???? Whoever did that should get a slap on the wrist at least! People are A******s, so why do you place the lives of the riskers in the hands of everyone else???

[BrokenMirror]

On 3/31/2016 at 11:58 PM, EDYinnit said:

Realism may not factor in, but consistency still applies.

It's the only explosive with unscaling and crit-agnostic self-damage. It should be consistent with the scaling and crittable self-damage of all the others, unless and until those are reworked.

 

And I'll defend my self-damage to the death. It's not explosive if you don't suffer for a danger-close mistake.

Honestly, I can present the issue with explosive weapons as being the self damage. So the tonkor is the only used explosive. Why? It does a obscene amount  of damage. AOE. Does not self damage. Lets look at other popular AOE weapons. Amprex, Simulor, Torid, Atomos, Hikou Prime, You know what all of these weapons have in common? Non-Lethal levels of self damage (No self damage except the Hikou which does very little self damage). The issue is actually the fact that, if you make a "Close range mistake" with an explosive you are punished, whereas all the other AOE weapons don't punish you for using them close range, whats the advantage to using a Kulstar over a Hikou? There isn't one, there is only a disadvantage, self damage. All explosives should be set in line to deal a set non-scalling self damage, probably around 150-200 across the board, ignoring armor. While yes the tonkor dealing massive damage is a problem, the tonkor not dealing self damage is the biggest reason people use it, remove that and you ruin the weapon to be ignored like all the other explosives with better alternatives, Nerfing the tonkor's damage seems like the most reasonable solution, and buffing the rest of the explosives to be in-line with the tonkor.

On 3/31/2016 at 1:42 AM, (PS4)thefndodge said:

I support a tonkor nerf. It's an outlier.

Or you can buff the other explosives, which even without the tonkor, are not perticularily usable. Before the tonkor, sure you saw more of the other explosives, but they were still worse. If anything the explosive weapons are all outliers, The tonkor is too good, the rest are too bad, as I said above, Self damage is the issue, explosive weapons punish you for using them, no other weapon punishes you for making mistakes, even though other weapons are better at being AOE nukes then the explosives.

[NKDG]

31 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

Honestly, I can present the issue with explosive weapons as being the self damage. So the tonkor is the only used explosive. Why? It does a obscene amount  of damage. AOE. Does not self damage. Lets look at other popular AOE weapons. Amprex, Simulor, Torid, Atomos, Hikou Prime, You know what all of these weapons have in common? Non-Lethal levels of self damage (No self damage except the Hikou which does very little self damage). The issue is actually the fact that, if you make a "Close range mistake" with an explosive you are punished, whereas all the other AOE weapons don't punish you for using them close range, whats the advantage to using a Kulstar over a Hikou? There isn't one, there is only a disadvantage, self damage. All explosives should be set in line to deal a set non-scalling self damage, probably around 150-200 across the board, ignoring armor. While yes the tonkor dealing massive damage is a problem, the tonkor not dealing self damage is the biggest reason people use it, remove that and you ruin the weapon to be ignored like all the other explosives with better alternatives, Nerfing the tonkor's damage seems like the most reasonable solution, and buffing the rest of the explosives to be in-line with the tonkor.

Or you can buff the other explosives, which even without the tonkor, are not perticularily usable. Before the tonkor, sure you saw more of the other explosives, but they were still worse. If anything the explosive weapons are all outliers, The tonkor is too good, the rest are too bad, as I said above, Self damage is the issue, explosive weapons punish you for using them, no other weapon punishes you for making mistakes, even though other weapons are better at being AOE nukes then the explosives.

I believe this is called false correlation (a la "ice cream causes murder") in terms of low/no self damage being why they're used. (Also, I believe torrid does some self damage on initial explosion, possibly lethal btw, and I don't believe it's all that popular regardless.) Anyways, it's more the fact that they do much better dps than the ones that are unused. Also, a good bit of them are redcrittable, and based on the general public's love of anything crit, I'd say that could be a pretty big factor. What's the advantage of hikou over kullstar?? Hmm... maybe the faster fire rate, faster flight speed, higher ammo count/mag capacity, and the hikou doesn't need sniper ammo? Those could be factors... Again, the tonkor should be brought to the same level of downsides as the other launcher, and while I wouldn't argue a buff for weapons like ogris and angstrum, "buff all the things to match the outlier" isn't and shouldn't be a viable solution. The outlier is exactly that, something that doesn't fit the data. Thus, it must be tweaked to fit that data (uncapped self damage in this case) Also, as a secura penta/kullstar user. I can safely say they're not underpowered in the slightest, and do quite well in viability even late game. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[BrokenMirror]

9 minutes ago, NKDG said:

I believe this is called false correlation (a la "ice cream causes murder") in terms of low/no self damage being why they're used. (Also, I believe torrid does some self damage on initial explosion, possibly lethal btw, and I don't believe it's all that popular regardless.) Anyways, it's more the fact that they do much better dps than the ones that are unused. Also, a good bit of them are redcrittable, and based on the general public's love of anything crit, I'd say that could be a pretty big factor. What's the advantage of hikou over kullstar?? Hmm... maybe the faster fire rate, faster flight speed, higher ammo count/mag capacity, and the hikou doesn't need sniper ammo? Those could be factors... Again, the tonkor should be brought to the same level of downsides as the other launcher, and while I wouldn't argue a buff for weapons like ogris and angstrum, "buff all the things to match the outlier" isn't and shouldn't be a viable solution. The outlier is exactly that, something that doesn't fit the data. Thus, it must be tweaked to fit that data (uncapped self damage in this case) Also, as a secura penta/kullstar user. I can safely say they're not underpowered in the slightest, and do quite well as launchers. 

I didn't say the tonkor didn't need a nerf, I said that even if you nerfed the tonkor, the explosive weapons we're comparing it too will still be unused due to being bad, and yes, I bet if you took a poll of every player in warframe and asked "Why don't you use <Insert Self Damaging explosive here>?" The answer will be "Because I can and will kill myself with it." By running explosives in Low-Mid level missions YOU are the only danger to yourself, Your not at risk to dying to any enemy here, you risk killing yourself because any number of circumstances, Biggest one being a teamate who sees you using an angstrum and walks infront of you to kill you on purpose, That is why I stopped using explosives, i died because my teammates are Trolls. I believe I said specifically, "Bring the weapons in-line with eachother" Which means buffing the other explosives and nerfing the tonkor. Because that is the only way weapons like the penta will see widespread play, and I tell you the Secura Penta (One of my more used explosives now-a-days) doesn't need more damage, it needs to not risk me exploding violently because the penta decided to bounce of some invisible clipping, or stick to my sentinel with adhesive blast, Let me tell you, adhesive blast pentas do stick to sentinels, and if you do stick it to a sentinel, you are guaranteed dead when you detonate. Period, End of story.

Also the torid does not have self damage.

And why won't you accowlage bringing the Launchers up to the same level of lack of downside of the tonkor isn't a good thing for that entire genre of weapons. It will have to happen for those weapons to become popular. 

About me: I am a collector, I build weapons, I use weapons, I have a lot of weapons, I dislike the tonkor because It is easy mode, I play Argon Scope Vectis because It is ultra hardcore MLG mode, Why? Because I am having fun, I don't care what the other 3 people are using, and I ignore people who elitist at me with the "WHY YOU USE PENTA, TONKOR IS BETTER" My answer is always "Because it's MY game, and I play what I want to play." And I have had my fun ruined several times by nerf happy forum goers, for instance, Phage nerf, Mirage nerf (YES LOSING 2 MIRRORS AND GAINING PROPORTIONATE DAMAGE IS A NERF, I HAVE STRICTLY LESS STATUS CHANCE), Ash Nerf, Ember nerf (Before the recent buff), Mesa Nerf (seriously, nothing wrong with the old damage, why did they nerf her damage!), Limbo NerfS(Yes because this frame needed to cheese less content, and be completly useless, this WAS MY FAVORITE WARFRAME.), Coptering nerf (TIPEDO... RUINED), Saryn Super mega ultranerf I mean "rework."  (Sure guys, keep calling it a rework, losing ~40k(Estimation, Real DPS loss was between 20k-40k, including Spore halving health, which doesn't scale nearly as well as people think it does) DPS was totally not a nerf)

STOP

I don't complain about people running subpar weapons, why do people complain about me using OP weapons. What if I genuinly like the simulor as my favorite weapon in the entire game(Which I do), How is me using my Weapon ruining your fun?

[NKDG]

To those complaining about self damage because people are A******s, maybe a better idea is to remove friendly fire on explosive weapons in general? I'd much rather have that...

[RealPandemonium]

6 minutes ago, NKDG said:

To those complaining about self damage because people are A******s, maybe a better idea is to remove friendly fire on explosive weapons in general? I'd much rather have that...

Explosives don't have friendly fire, though.

[BrokenMirror]

10 minutes ago, NKDG said:

To those complaining about self damage because people are A******s, maybe a better idea is to remove friendly fire on explosive weapons in general? I'd much rather have that...

Yeah, this is the main reason why I cant have nice things such as Explosive weapons. It is 100% "People are A******s" and some RNG, where the Penta with splitchamber sometimes bounces off the split projectile back at you, for no reason whatsoever, Or My favroite, the angstrum sometimes decides to fire Straight down for no reason(Bad Aim + Self Damage=badtime)

Although, I still stand by my idea of static damage, or percentage based damage, The fact that I can unstoppably nuke myself by accident is really awkward and annoying, And if all explosives still did a static, non-lethal but relievent damage, it would make everyone happy, Say 400-500. That way you cant nuke yourself, but you can still be slightly punished by being bad at the weapon.

@RealPandemonium he is refering to explosives colliding and exploding on friendlies, This causes weapons like the Kulstar to have their users trolled by people who stand infront of them on purpouse to cause them to kill themselves.

Edited April 3, 2016 by BrokenMirror

[Jeetza]

On 3/14/2016 at 3:15 PM, Zonzo said:

Are you serious? The rocket jump ability that comes with the Tonkor is the reason it has low self damage? Why in the name of God would you change this? 

"Hey guys lets just take every fun element out of this game, add more bulletsponge enemies and call it a day"

 

Great stuff DE, truly amazed.

This thread scares me, do people really feel a need to nerf the S#&amp;&#036; out of one of the funnest weapons in the game? I've had friends that hate it because of how powerful it is, but then fall in love with it when they see how fun it is to use and how rewarding it is. Nerfing this would drive a lot of people crazy.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Hoo boy, I went to sleep and Things Happened.

7 hours ago, Irorone said:

 

NKDG has done a good job in my stead, but your fallacies are really sad. And you're so very mad. Chill bro.

Addressing some things you've mentioned in no particular order:

• All other explosives have risk (proportional selfdamage) for the AOE reward, excepting the Tonkor. Therefore, Tonkor should be given this too. I noticed you're not against this, so I don't have to go into further detail than that
• W/r/t segregation, it's not about the tonkor, it's about the players; mainly, it's the fallacious argument of "make private parties or suffer the Tonkor's influence". If there's a weapon that can provide a negative influence, you should not be precluded from public matchmaking simply in order to avoid it, that's all. It came only off a long argument of such fallacy, pointing out the flaw in the argument. Is it as bad as racial segregation? Not remotely. Is racial segregation an extreme example of the same core argument? Yes.
• Your mention of the Ogris is hilarious. Doesn't need to reload as often? No, because it shoots at 1/5th the rate. Ogris output is frankly sad, especially since it has lower blast radius than Pentas and the Tonkor.
• Encouraging diversity is done by bringing down outliers or bringing up underperformers; I explained this mathematically earlier in the thread. Balance changes also have to be tested for. What's easier to test the effect of, one nerf or twenty buffs?
• The Tonkor's damage is a problem point because it doesn't reside in the same category as the Soma/Prime does to rifles; with a very low base (10/12) but high crit (35% and 3x), the Soma's damage only matches up once those crits are accounted for. The Tonkor throws this completely out of the water by having only slightly lower base (325 vs. 350 on a Penta, for example) but still far higher crits (35% and 2.5x rather than 10% and 2x).
  • Add headcrit multipliers to this and you have a huge damage disparity. On something like a Charger that doesn't have autoheadshots to trigger headcrits, it's powerful (probably still the most powerful) but possibly not so much more so that it wouldn't be acceptable (given appropriate risk in selfdamage). On a unit that does suffer autoheadshot headcrits, that damage disparity is magnified into a clearly unacceptably large gap.
• PvE balance is still important in order to keep players happy with freedom of choice. If someone doesn't want to use the SySim/Tonkor, they shouldn't be punished by having a pathetic comparitive output. They currently are, and that's why the Tonkor needs balance changes (as does the SySim, but that's not this thread's main focus).
• I love my Brakk. Don't hate on my Brakk. It wasn't nerfed for popularity, it was nerfed for statistical superiority in its class, even compared to primary shotguns. Those nerfs are out of date and should be at least partially reverted since primary shotties are so much more powerful and usable these days. _{At least give the even damage spread back, impact is the worst}
  • Similarly, people who like the Tonkor for its properties, not for how imbalanced it is, will probably continue to use it regardless of balance changes.

 

7 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

difficulty in a game should be optional , and with that being said since there is no means of doing so in options , it should be something determinable by your Equiptments and mods , there will ALWAYS be ppl who no skill , no matter what weapons or frames u change it will always be so , its a free game , we gadda get used to no skill players . 

Difficulty is optional. Mercury continues to exist if all you want is to walk through enemies.

Optional involves opting in as well as opting out, and difficulties are rarely contrasted in "Yes" and "No" categories.

 

5 hours ago, BrokenMirror said:

Honestly, I can present the issue with explosive weapons as being the self damage. So the tonkor is the only used explosive. Why? It does a obscene amount  of damage. AOE. Does not self damage. Lets look at other popular AOE weapons. Amprex, Simulor, Torid, Atomos, Hikou Prime, You know what all of these weapons have in common? Non-Lethal levels of self damage (No self damage except the Hikou which does very little self damage). The issue is actually the fact that, if you make a "Close range mistake" with an explosive you are punished, whereas all the other AOE weapons don't punish you for using them close range, whats the advantage to using a Kulstar over a Hikou? There isn't one, there is only a disadvantage, self damage. All explosives should be set in line to deal a set non-scalling self damage, probably around 150-200 across the board, ignoring armor. While yes the tonkor dealing massive damage is a problem, the tonkor not dealing self damage is the biggest reason people use it, remove that and you ruin the weapon to be ignored like all the other explosives with better alternatives, Nerfing the tonkor's damage seems like the most reasonable solution, and buffing the rest of the explosives to be in-line with the tonkor.

Or you can buff the other explosives, which even without the tonkor, are not perticularily usable. Before the tonkor, sure you saw more of the other explosives, but they were still worse. If anything the explosive weapons are all outliers, The tonkor is too good, the rest are too bad, as I said above, Self damage is the issue, explosive weapons punish you for using them, no other weapon punishes you for making mistakes, even though other weapons are better at being AOE nukes then the explosives.

• Amprex: Terrible ammo economy / low base damage. Harshly limited range. AOE is weaker than main fire. 2.7 reload time (ohno, even longer than that Tonkor 2 second!) Has to aim for heads, rather than just 'this end towards enemy'. Damage is dealt over time.
• (S) Simulor: No arguments here, the SySim is exactly the no-aim, no-risk, all-reward as the Tonkor. It even uses Rifle Ammo, making its economy even better. At least Magnetic is a less effective damage type on most things, though. Doesn't the base Simulor also have lower AOE and/or projectile range to work with?
• Torid: Enemies have to stand in place for AOE, damage is dealt over time. 3 second reload time. Building up dense clouds is a risky business because enemies can just run right on through, and you're relying on the rarest ammo pickups to regain the ability to put more down.
• Atomos: Basically a secondary Amprex with a different base damage type. Somewhat more manageable ammo economy through its lower firerate/higher damage base, but doesn't enjoy supercrits like an Amprex, limiting the overall output. No cheap punchthrough and requiring +range to really be effective limits the AOE.Damage dealt over time.
• Hikou Prime: non-mod-scaling AOE damage except for firerate. At high fire rate, can be very deadly to self. Try putting Lethal Torrent, Barrel Diffusion, CE and Gunslinger on a regular Hikou and aim down, you'll kill yourself. This non-scaling AOE damage deals 70 self-damage for an output of 250. More selfdamage than the Tonkor, less output, not moddable. I've literally never seen someone seriously using this.
• Ignis: You didn't mention it in the quoted text, but just for completion's sake: Ammo economy issues in higher level content, damage falloff at range, must sacrifice slot for proper AOE (Firestorm), possibly also another one for additional range, limiting actual damage output. Damage is dealt over time.

Oh look, the AOE weapons that are moderately balanced have actual drawbacks like eating ammo, and only doing their AOE damage over a period of use. The Tonkor gets instant reward; that's what a launcher is for, but to compensate that instant reward you have to be careful using it or risk hurting yourself.

Also, checking CE's stats for the Hikou just made my day. Because nothing says lack of risk/reward balance like having a 'fun' AOE-source mod still provide more self-harm than the single strongest weapon in game right now.

I know I'd much rather use a Kulstar, where I can actually increase the damage output and affect the damage types, than a Hikou/Prime where I'm just throwing derpy firecrackers around. Oh, and on that note, if you want to use Concealed Explosives, you might as well use the normal Hikou, they have a slightly better rate of fire.

 

I don't think Self-damage is in perfect balance right now, but I definitely don't want to obsolete all other weapons by removing it entirely. Plus, it's fun knowing you can absolutely screw yourself over if you aren't careful where you're pointing.

 

3 hours ago, Jeetza said:

This thread scares me, do people really feel a need to nerf the S#&amp;&#036; out of one of the funnest weapons in the game? I've had friends that hate it because of how powerful it is, but then fall in love with it when they see how fun it is to use and how rewarding it is. Nerfing this would drive a lot of people crazy.

Yes, your Timmy, Power Gamer friends gravitate to the broken weapons. As has most of the general public. Doesn't mean it's not deserving of a change.

If they think it's fun, they keep using it after balance changes. Like my Brakk, a shadow of its former glory (release stats), still my main secondary.

[cx-dave]

8 hours ago, NKDG said:

A: Then is a gambling simulator a bad thing? Your idea of a gambling simulator is there's a risk and a reward. Isn't that almost any video game weapon ever? Shotguns have high damage. That damage falls off at long range. That's risk/reward. Full auto rifles are reliably good with sustained damage. They are generally pretty ammo hungry and can run outta ammo when you need it. That's risk/reward. Like it or not, risk/reward lies in everything, and removing the risk removed much of the sense of accomplishment.

B: I argue for a baseline with the understanding there will be an acceptable amount of deviation on any given weapon(so I guess I call it baseline, but it's technically a structure). The tonkor oversteps that deviation by having a capped self damage. That needs to be fixed. While it is true that it is subjective that the degree of deviation, having set parameters for each extremity is a good way to promote objectivity (for me, soma p is what the top tier weaponry shouldn't surpass and regular braton is what lower tier weaponry shouldn't surpass in terms of viability). Tonkor surpasses soma p just on the fact that it does no self damage. 

C: yes, there's a different level of FEEDBACK from a pvp game, but it still requires the same finesse of keeping weapons in a set range of usefulness. If a weapon doesn't have a drawback that the rest of the weapons in its group has but has all of the upsides, you now have killed balance as it exceeds the usefulness range. If a weapon does multiples of damage compared to the previous best weapons in that group (lookin at you too-broken war and powercreep prime) something must be done to balance (I still say lower attack speed in both those cases) thus, you encourage weapon diversity and discourage the thought of new weapon = best weapon (powercreep)

D/E: Welp... I don't really know why they advocate damage nerf... It does great damage yes, but if there was that drawback, I would give no craps about it. Thus, I only advocate removing the self damage cap.

 

A: Tonkor has risk reward factored in. It only carries 2 charges and is highly inaccurate. Not effective at all in lower levels and situations where enemies are moving at high speed and or spread apart.

B: If the Tonkor were balanced around the Soma P, there'd be absolute no point in using it. In most cases you'd kill 100x more efficiently with the Soma P. Introducing self-damage would also render it useless, due to the low accuracy at range. It would become the next Kulstar. Almost no point in using it even if you remove the risk of other players bouncing back your shots...or we can just go back to a Bless Trin setup and shoot everything in the face regardless of self-damage risk? Perhaps, selectively nerf that too?

What then are experienced players supposed to do next? When all damage is balanced around a mid-tier weapon, call it a day while enemies are still easy for them and just leave the mission? Tried a Soma P on a lvl 100 Bursa (without CP) or lvl 300 Ancient? You're wasting your time. It's like shooting some bullet sponge in The Division and your game becomes a reload simulator :) 

No, the Tonkor allows for casual players to have their fun and experienced players to take it to another level (depending on mission type). It's quite safe from being abused. In most situation it's outgunned at lower levels by many other weapons that carry a much larger ammo pool.

Unless widespread abuse occurs, there's no point in lowering damage of highly powerful weapons in the current enemy environment. It would require a whole rework of enemy intelligence and the complete removal of their cheese to be effective. So, instead of breaking things even more we just have to live with ridiculous enemy scaling for the time being.

Edited April 3, 2016 by cx-dave

[Medereyes]

How soon players forget about Mesa, Acrid, Synoid Gammacor, etc. Lets fix whats broken first before trashing yet another weapon/warframe into obscurity.

[letir]

18 minutes ago, Medereyes said:

How soon players forget about Mesa, Acrid, Synoid Gammacor, etc. Lets fix whats broken first before trashing yet another weapon/warframe into obscurity.

Synoid Gammacor is still DPS monster, one of the best full-auto secondaries in the game. It fully capable to install Ammo Mutation and still kill everything with free slots, even without any crit/status capacity.

The only difference is amount of time when this Death Star Beam working.

Edited April 3, 2016 by letir

[Irorone]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Hoo boy, I went to sleep and Things Happened.

NKDG has done a good job in my stead, but your fallacies are really sad. And you're so very mad. Chill bro.

Addressing some things you've mentioned in no particular order:

• All other explosives have risk (proportional selfdamage) for the AOE reward, excepting the Tonkor. Therefore, Tonkor should be given this too. I noticed you're not against this, so I don't have to go into further detail than that
• W/r/t segregation, it's not about the tonkor, it's about the players; mainly, it's the fallacious argument of "make private parties or suffer the Tonkor's influence". If there's a weapon that can provide a negative influence, you should not be precluded from public matchmaking simply in order to avoid it, that's all. It came only off a long argument of such fallacy, pointing out the flaw in the argument. Is it as bad as racial segregation? Not remotely. Is racial segregation an extreme example of the same core argument? Yes.
• Your mention of the Ogris is hilarious. Doesn't need to reload as often? No, because it shoots at 1/5th the rate. Ogris output is frankly sad, especially since it has lower blast radius than Pentas and the Tonkor.
• Encouraging diversity is done by bringing down outliers or bringing up underperformers; I explained this mathematically earlier in the thread. Balance changes also have to be tested for. What's easier to test the effect of, one nerf or twenty buffs?
• The Tonkor's damage is a problem point because it doesn't reside in the same category as the Soma/Prime does to rifles; with a very low base (10/12) but high crit (35% and 3x), the Soma's damage only matches up once those crits are accounted for. The Tonkor throws this completely out of the water by having only slightly lower base (325 vs. 350 on a Penta, for example) but still far higher crits (35% and 2.5x rather than 10% and 2x).
  • Add headcrit multipliers to this and you have a huge damage disparity. On something like a Charger that doesn't have autoheadshots to trigger headcrits, it's powerful (probably still the most powerful) but possibly not so much more so that it wouldn't be acceptable (given appropriate risk in selfdamage). On a unit that does suffer autoheadshot headcrits, that damage disparity is magnified into a clearly unacceptably large gap.
• PvE balance is still important in order to keep players happy with freedom of choice. If someone doesn't want to use the SySim/Tonkor, they shouldn't be punished by having a pathetic comparitive output. They currently are, and that's why the Tonkor needs balance changes (as does the SySim, but that's not this thread's main focus).
• I love my Brakk. Don't hate on my Brakk. It wasn't nerfed for popularity, it was nerfed for statistical superiority in its class, even compared to primary shotguns. Those nerfs are out of date and should be at least partially reverted since primary shotties are so much more powerful and usable these days. _{At least give the even damage spread back, impact is the worst}
  • Similarly, people who like the Tonkor for its properties, not for how imbalanced it is, will probably continue to use it regardless of balance changes.

 

Difficulty is optional. Mercury continues to exist if all you want is to walk through enemies.

Optional involves opting in as well as opting out, and difficulties are rarely contrasted in "Yes" and "No" categories.

 

• Amprex: Terrible ammo economy / low base damage. Harshly limited range. AOE is weaker than main fire. 2.7 reload time (ohno, even longer than that Tonkor 2 second!) Has to aim for heads, rather than just 'this end towards enemy'. Damage is dealt over time.
• (S) Simulor: No arguments here, the SySim is exactly the no-aim, no-risk, all-reward as the Tonkor. It even uses Rifle Ammo, making its economy even better. At least Magnetic is a less effective damage type on most things, though. Doesn't the base Simulor also have lower AOE and/or projectile range to work with?
• Torid: Enemies have to stand in place for AOE, damage is dealt over time. 3 second reload time. Building up dense clouds is a risky business because enemies can just run right on through, and you're relying on the rarest ammo pickups to regain the ability to put more down.
• Atomos: Basically a secondary Amprex with a different base damage type. Somewhat more manageable ammo economy through its lower firerate/higher damage base, but doesn't enjoy supercrits like an Amprex, limiting the overall output. No cheap punchthrough and requiring +range to really be effective limits the AOE.Damage dealt over time.
• Hikou Prime: non-mod-scaling AOE damage except for firerate. At high fire rate, can be very deadly to self. Try putting Lethal Torrent, Barrel Diffusion, CE and Gunslinger on a regular Hikou and aim down, you'll kill yourself. This non-scaling AOE damage deals 70 self-damage for an output of 250. More selfdamage than the Tonkor, less output, not moddable. I've literally never seen someone seriously using this.
• Ignis: You didn't mention it in the quoted text, but just for completion's sake: Ammo economy issues in higher level content, damage falloff at range, must sacrifice slot for proper AOE (Firestorm), possibly also another one for additional range, limiting actual damage output. Damage is dealt over time.

Oh look, the AOE weapons that are moderately balanced have actual drawbacks like eating ammo, and only doing their AOE damage over a period of use. The Tonkor gets instant reward; that's what a launcher is for, but to compensate that instant reward you have to be careful using it or risk hurting yourself.

Also, checking CE's stats for the Hikou just made my day. Because nothing says lack of risk/reward balance like having a 'fun' AOE-source mod still provide more self-harm than the single strongest weapon in game right now.

I know I'd much rather use a Kulstar, where I can actually increase the damage output and affect the damage types, than a Hikou/Prime where I'm just throwing derpy firecrackers around. Oh, and on that note, if you want to use Concealed Explosives, you might as well use the normal Hikou, they have a slightly better rate of fire.

 

I don't think Self-damage is in perfect balance right now, but I definitely don't want to obsolete all other weapons by removing it entirely. Plus, it's fun knowing you can absolutely screw yourself over if you aren't careful where you're pointing.

 

Yes, your Timmy, Power Gamer friends gravitate to the broken weapons. As has most of the general public. Doesn't mean it's not deserving of a change.

If they think it's fun, they keep using it after balance changes. Like my Brakk, a shadow of its former glory (release stats), still my main secondary.

Calling me on fallacies eh?  Ironic how many you're prone to yourself.

1.  It's about the players huh?  Unless you're in the same camp as NKDG and ONLY want the self damage nerf then you are asking for the same kind of nerf that I was going off about earlier which is WILDLY unnecessary and trying to enforce that on ALL players is negative.  DE nerfs mesa's peacemaker because of "ez mode" arguments like yours now ask yourself when's the last time you saw somebody using a level 30 mesa intentionally >_>.  Again it's about the players huh? WHAT ABOUT THE ONES THAT LIKE TONKOR.  Saying that one part of racial segregation makes it solidly analagous to weapon balancing in a video game?  That's like saying all lizards are geckos because geckos are lizards.

2.  It's called fire rate mods something that you know WORKS for weapons with a higher mag capacity.  Also you didn't really refute me with your logic here when you're basically not taking into account AT ALL the people who like the current tonkor "because ez mode" btw the same kind of thing you accuse other people of doing to your opinions there's a particular word for that.

3.  No it's not.  By bringing down the outliers that's literally taking away what makes a weapon special and calling that what makes it special >_>; bringing down the outliers is ONLY THAT bringing down the outliers you pretend that it makes the other options viable when in reality you may be killing the only viable weapon in a category at the highest tiers with no other option in that same weapon category.  Bringing other options adds diversity IN ANY SENSE.  Developers only use nerfing so much instead of buffing because it's so much easier for them to implement it generally pisses off ANY player base.

4.  It's called having different tiers/grades of weapons if every weapon was just a sidegrade of a baseline weapon this'd be TF2 not warframe >_>.  We have enemies that go across a massive set of levels (up to level 100 or so in non infinites) and expecting every weapon to be just as viable as another just does not work in games like these after all why get new weapons if your current function just as well?

5.  Tonkor is a higher tier weapon that instead of lots of raw damage gains lots of crit chance and multiplier in comparison to penta and ogris.  Also unless this

 

didn't stick SHUT UP ABOUT THE HEADSHOT BONUSES ALREADY.  WE'VE LITERALLY ALREADY BEEN THROUGH THIS BIT.  Even if didn't, ALL the explosive weapons get the autoheadshot which includes kunai thanks to the concealed explosives mod (which guess what with a spira prime is basically a rapid fire tonkor, still has self damage but you're complaining more about the output from what I've seen).

6.  Not all player input is valued by damage output and kill count, which seems to be the only ones YOU care about.  As a nekros I can get my squad NINETY TWO MODS in the space of four waves of draco.  I may have a low kill count, damage output etc.  but I'm a VERY valuable member of those parties because of that fact and even then expecting a mk-1 braton to do just as much as a tonkor without a well thought build/mod setup (which is by the way effectively what you're asking for without explaining the baseline you're advocating) is just stupid.  Some weapons are just gonna be better than other GET OVER IT literally EVERY game with an actual selection of weapons will have weapons that stand out hammering the nails that stick out works for a house not a game.  There are other options to a tonkor to out put lots of damage on a group not even necessarily in the explosives category so stop thinking that fixing this weapon will in any REAL sense "fix weapon balancing" since it'll just end up a chain of nerfing the flavor of the week.  When they reworked at least she still could put out the kind of damage she used to (ironically more if you tweak your gear right) just not with the press 4 alone.

7.  OTHER PLAYERS ARE NOT PUNISHED YOU LITERALLY HAVE NOT MENTIONED IN ONE WAY OTHER THAN THE COMPLETELY POINTLESS SCOREBOARD AT THE END.  You get all the xp, loot, and completion rewards of a high dps teamember so in no way are you punished unless you literally bring NOTHING to a squad that expects you to do SOMETHING (i.e. en vamp, blind, etc.).  Even then that punishment is social in nature not engineered by the game's functions itself stop expecting a game fix to truly change human nature in this manner.  Also PVE BALANCE? Seems to me like unless everybody is cookie cutter on the stats board while SOMEHOW using different gear you're never gonna be happy which SURPRISE you never will if DE follows that design philosophy.

8.  I'm not hating on the brakk I'm stating that as a fact they nerfed it LITERALLY because of people complaining that it was a high tier sidearm that like YOUR arguments entail a LOT OF PEOPLE USED.  Guess what they nerfed it instead of adding primary shotguns to outperform the sidearm by your argument #Diversity.  Also one of the properties of the Tonkor IS it's high damage nerfing that is LITERALLY nerfing one of the core aspects people like about it.

9.  a. Amprex but has MASSIVE crit stats and chaining which when used with mirage's abilities give it that "instant payoff" you hate so much about tonkor.

     b. PFFFT no aim, no skill on a tonkor? do you even know how this weapon works?  It only explodes on contact with things like enemies and cryopods, it has projectile dropoff and it isn't even 100% accurate on it's own guide trail anymore.

     c. Torid except that constant field stacked with effects like spore now make torid and ignis ridiculously powerful since you can pop those kind of on hit effects at a literally machine gun pace in an aoe.  It is competitive and in some ways more so than tonkor but no surprise you don't care about it because it's "not the weapon everyone's noob tubing with".

     d.  Atomos, deals damage over time because it's a THROWER WEAPON THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO JUST LIKE A GRENADE IS SUPPOSED TO BLOW **** UP.

     e.   Maybe you should check the MULTIPLE vids where concealed explosives stacked with things like spores/resonance is a top tier strategy before you try relegating it (as in a t4d if you're gonna try you're usual shtick).  It's not the same burst damage as a tonkor but it is by NO means weak.  I've seen plenty of people who use concealed explosives and with the right builds it's plenty effective.

     f. Ignis guess what? LITERALLY flows back into the thrower AND proc based arguments.  Even then?  Guess what I still wreck rank 30ish enemies (highest tier of enemies before going into keys/sorties) with an ignis on characters like ember/saryn BEFORE a tonkor user can even line up a shot most of the time.  Does it need a nerf now?  Give it blast and GUESS WHAT it now has knockdown cc something a tonkor can't sustain regularly.  DOES IT NEED NERFED NOW?  OH AMMO ECONOMY YOU SAY TO THAT I SAY AMMO MUTATION MOD LITERALLY EVERY HOSE WEAPON USES ONE.

 

Finally SINGLE STRONGEST WEAPON?  You literally have no credibility with that statement.  You know what ACTUALLY instakills anything it applies to?  Covert Lethality on a stealth takedown.  You know what has BETTER CRITS than a tonkor?  EVERY MELEE WEAPON WITH A HALF DECENT CRIT STAT AND THE ACOLYTE MELEE MODS.  You know what has better AOE than a tonkor?  ANY NUMBER OF THE THROWER EXAMPLES AND THOSE CAN PROC EFFECTS LIKE SPORES MUCH FASTER THAN A TONKOR CAN  AND GUESS WHAT THEY EVEN SCALE BETTER SINCE PROCS LIKE VIRAL AND MAGNETIC ACTUALLY DO SCALE INFINITELY AND THROWER WEAPON PROC THOSE MUCH MORE RELIABLY.  What's a tonkor got?  High crit damage, a respectable aoe, manageable ammo economy.  What doesn't it have?  Infinite scaling outside of stat procs which other weapons do RIDICULOUSLY better,  ease of use since you have to either direct hit or land your nade close by somehow, a reload time that doesn't require you to pace your engagements to avoid running right into a gunner's knockdown.  Oh yeah it's the TONKOR that needs nerfed >_>. 

You know why people like me even bother replying to this?  It's because we don't want DE to look at this and think YOUR insane idea of "balance" is the majority voice on the subject and then employ it to the dissatisfaction of those WHO ACTUALLY USE THE WEAPON.  Am I mad?  YES because this is the NTH nerf X thread where SOMEBODY decides something is OP and it wants it nerfed unilaterally and people like YOU disregard our points on the matter as much you accuse us of disregarding yours. 

[Irorone]

8 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Explosives don't have friendly fire, though.

Technically they do if you have a rad proc, but semantics, technically EVERYTHING has friendly fire if you have a rad proc.  Mostly people just don't like getting instadowned because a fellow player literally runs in front of them right as the left off the shot.  I've had one player try and grief me this way (didn't succeed ONCE much to my pride) so self damage on explosives CAN also be a trolling based issue if you have the bad luck of pubbing with a complete *******.

[IRVoidGuru]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Difficulty is optional. Mercury continues to exist if all you want is to walk through enemies.

Optional involves opting in as well as opting out, and difficulties are rarely contrasted in "Yes" and "No" categories.

 

that would be an option for easy enemys not an easy difficulty game mode , either way trying to say tonkor makes the game easy in itself is the problem in the first place. i find that more weapons need to be brought up to this standard and that is Exactly what the devs are working on in the new Damage system , before anymore Nerfs or Damage reworks , weapon reworks . or anything of the such. how about we give the devs the free time to , idk , fix multi shot and add weapon scaling. this conversation is basicly a leading 1, lets be honest with ourselves if this weapon gets nerfed its Simulor next . DE needs to stop giving in to ppl crying Op. its getting old for the community who likes the weapon , and for DE themselves  

 

P.S. at least with it how it is , it has room for more mods like firestorm , fast hands , and such while still dealing out decent game damage , why would u down this weapon that actually has the build freedom that players want. sure most ppl who use this weapon dont think of that and opt into more damage but that is because we are starved for better damage output witch this weapon gives  

Edited April 3, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33