Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[TheBrsrkr]

56 minutes ago, Medereyes said:

How soon players forget about Mesa, Acrid, Synoid Gammacor, etc. Lets fix whats broken first before trashing yet another weapon/warframe into obscurity.

The Acrid got hit with Damage 2.0 a lot harder than other weapons. Even so, it's more outdated than anything, like, say,  half the weapons in the game. Mesa does more damage than she used to and is even getting a buff soon, but since you couldn't sit there and farm all day anymore she's "broken" because muh efficiency. As for the Slammacor, its  problem is the way beam weapons in general work. Even then it still does a ton of damage, and it was plain ridiculous before. 

 

44 minutes ago, Irorone said:

.  Am I mad?  YES because this is the NTH nerf X thread where SOMEBODY decides something is OP and it wants it nerfed unilaterally and people like YOU disregard our points on the matter as much you accuse us of disregarding yours. 

You really should calm down. This is a discussion, not a rant. You are putting your opinions out in a public forum. Expect criticism and dissenting opinions. 

 

That being said, you have little in the way of points. Not all weapons are designed to be the same, but there's still a general progression and scale of power. While some weapons will be more powerful than others, there would be no objectively superior weapons. 

The weapons described by EDYinnit up there were not supposed to be unable to compete with the Tonkor, they were supposed to demonstrate how weapons have limiting factors and are still powerful. You have to lay with them in specific ways to get around those factors to get the damage output you want. After that it's just some ranting on your part. 

You bring up melee crit and Covert Lethality while completely ignoring that melee range is a massive risk factor. One the Tonkor comparatively does not have. You bring up the aim guide not being exactly accurate while being completely oblivious to the fact that it has an aim guide, something NO other weapon has. You somehow think needing to hit the enemy with a grenade is a limiting factor, which is just...... No. No it isn't. The rest is just incomprehensible ranting and raging about nerfs, even though they're needed just as much as buffs and happen less often. 

[NKDG]

9 hours ago, BrokenMirror said:

I didn't say the tonkor didn't need a nerf, I said that even if you nerfed the tonkor, the explosive weapons we're comparing it too will still be unused due to being bad, and yes, I bet if you took a poll of every player in warframe and asked "Why don't you use <Insert Self Damaging explosive here>?" The answer will be "Because I can and will kill myself with it." By running explosives in Low-Mid level missions YOU are the only danger to yourself, Your not at risk to dying to any enemy here, you risk killing yourself because any number of circumstances, Biggest one being a teamate who sees you using an angstrum and walks infront of you to kill you on purpose, That is why I stopped using explosives, i died because my teammates are Trolls. I believe I said specifically, "Bring the weapons in-line with eachother" Which means buffing the other explosives and nerfing the tonkor. Because that is the only way weapons like the penta will see widespread play, and I tell you the Secura Penta (One of my more used explosives now-a-days) doesn't need more damage, it needs to not risk me exploding violently because the penta decided to bounce of some invisible clipping, or stick to my sentinel with adhesive blast, Let me tell you, adhesive blast pentas do stick to sentinels, and if you do stick it to a sentinel, you are guaranteed dead when you detonate. Period, End of story.

Also the torid does not have self damage.

And why won't you accowlage bringing the Launchers up to the same level of lack of downside of the tonkor isn't a good thing for that entire genre of weapons. It will have to happen for those weapons to become popular. 

About me: I am a collector, I build weapons, I use weapons, I have a lot of weapons, I dislike the tonkor because It is easy mode, I play Argon Scope Vectis because It is ultra hardcore MLG mode, Why? Because I am having fun, I don't care what the other 3 people are using, and I ignore people who elitist at me with the "WHY YOU USE PENTA, TONKOR IS BETTER" My answer is always "Because it's MY game, and I play what I want to play." And I have had my fun ruined several times by nerf happy forum goers, for instance, Phage nerf, Mirage nerf (YES LOSING 2 MIRRORS AND GAINING PROPORTIONATE DAMAGE IS A NERF, I HAVE STRICTLY LESS STATUS CHANCE), Ash Nerf, Ember nerf (Before the recent buff), Mesa Nerf (seriously, nothing wrong with the old damage, why did they nerf her damage!), Limbo NerfS(Yes because this frame needed to cheese less content, and be completly useless, this WAS MY FAVORITE WARFRAME.), Coptering nerf (TIPEDO... RUINED), Saryn Super mega ultranerf I mean "rework."  (Sure guys, keep calling it a rework, losing ~40k(Estimation, Real DPS loss was between 20k-40k, including Spore halving health, which doesn't scale nearly as well as people think it does) DPS was totally not a nerf)

STOP

I don't complain about people running subpar weapons, why do people complain about me using OP weapons. What if I genuinly like the simulor as my favorite weapon in the entire game(Which I do), How is me using my Weapon ruining your fun?

I guess that's something neither you nor I will convince the other towards, and we have no data to prove it, so I guess we're gonna have to be stuck in "agree to disagree" mode on that. Neither of us can use pure fact to prove either side, so for now, we're at a standstill in that topic. 

However! I will argue there are only 2 launchers that are hilariously underpowered: ogris and angstrum. They have long charge times, pitiful damage payoff for those times, and crap other stats to not-make up for it. Penta's fine, S. Penta's great (I use it quite a bit unforma'd and it still OHKOs around lvl 80 or so) and kullstar is same story as S. Penta. 

Tonkor' snot so much ruining my fun as annoying me because of its outlier nature. Self damage should not be capped, you have to have the risk. It's like saying the cheater on the other table in a poker game affects you. It's just really really angering to see him getting all these winnings without actually taking a risk. Thus, I argue to uncap the self damage on tonkor.

Alright, I'll bite.

About me:

I play with whatever's fun, and if it's criminally underpowered but feels good, I max it. I collect what I can if it's rare, and get rid of it if it's not fun. I sold my soma but put 5 forma into my gorgon, I foddered my detron, but put 4 forma in my single bronco p (farmed 3 sets of that thing so I could have akbronco p too). I foddered orthos p, but serro is still pound for pound my most used weapon, and I would stake my life on its viability. I love being the underdog, I revel in the "why are you using x, y's soooooo op and so much better noob" cause I get to go out there and show them up and maybe make them wanna put effort into breaking the meta. If it's fun and usable but not viable in "endgame" I'll put my time and forma in to make it viable in some way. My favorite frame is limbo, and while I'm absolutely livid at how much DE seems to hate him these days, I keep finding new builds to keep him a relevant and fun frame in my collection. Rift surge augment? Max range efficiency cataclysm sniper limbo does well in defense missions. Respectable base speed? Slap on that destreza and and those speed/evasion mods, let's make a pseudo nezha build! I got my akvastos, but they fall off easier than they should? Not anymore! High strength/duration rift torrent build ftw! That's where I thrive. I don't care if you're out damaging me, I don't care if your weapon's crazy op as long as your mechanics aren't broken. Thus, I find 2 weapons to be fundamentally broken, tonkor because lack of uncapped self damage, and simulor line because screen nuke gun isn't all that fun to play with. I'm also stubborn, if I see something I think should be balanced, I will fight to the bitter end to prove my case. Even if my proposal is a failure, I'll bring it up from time to time in an effort to get my voice heard and a change incited (lower powercreep p and way-too-broken war's base attack speed to be lower than previous top variants' for example). For me, a debate is welcome. As quiet and quick to shut up when I'm about to say something as I am in real life, I tend to come out quite quickly to quickly point out fallacies in an argument or to defend a side I agree with in an online situation. Thus, you'll prolly be seein a lot more of me ;)

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[Irorone]

58 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

The Acrid got hit with Damage 2.0 a lot harder than other weapons. Even so, it's more outdated than anything, like, say,  half the weapons in the game. Mesa does more damage than she used to and is even getting a buff soon, but since you couldn't sit there and farm all day anymore she's "broken" because muh efficiency. As for the Slammacor, its  problem is the way beam weapons in general work. Even then it still does a ton of damage, and it was plain ridiculous before. 

 

You really should calm down. This is a discussion, not a rant. You are putting your opinions out in a public forum. Expect criticism and dissenting opinions. 

 

That being said, you have little in the way of points. Not all weapons are designed to be the same, but there's still a general progression and scale of power. While some weapons will be more powerful than others, there would be no objectively superior weapons. 

The weapons described by EDYinnit up there were not supposed to be unable to compete with the Tonkor, they were supposed to demonstrate how weapons have limiting factors and are still powerful. You have to lay with them in specific ways to get around those factors to get the damage output you want. After that it's just some ranting on your part. 

You bring up melee crit and Covert Lethality while completely ignoring that melee range is a massive risk factor. One the Tonkor comparatively does not have. You bring up the aim guide not being exactly accurate while being completely oblivious to the fact that it has an aim guide, something NO other weapon has. You somehow think needing to hit the enemy with a grenade is a limiting factor, which is just...... No. No it isn't. The rest is just incomprehensible ranting and raging about nerfs, even though they're needed just as much as buffs and happen less often. 

No points huh?

1. There are objectively more powerful weapons real world or otherwise.  Boar prime vs. sobek how many do you see of that matchup believe me when I say the stat chance aug from meridian is NEVER used on that weapon.  Trying to institute a system where all weapons are basically sidegrades of each other seems to be the goals of you and EDYinnit.

2.  And I described the limiting factors of the tonkor guess you didn't read the entire post though >_>.  So to list them again regular reloading, low stat proc chance (stat procs scale infinitely unlike the raw or crit damage), and a requirement to either direct hit or bounce a grenade near a group of enemies on a timed explosive.

3.  Melee? Massive risk factor?  Loki, valk, wukong, ivara as long as you don't sprint or bullet jump, saryn when you actually use all of her first three powers with the regeneration aug, any frame with high rank nara.  Also tonkor has an aim guide because it's one of the few weapons that would actually need a guide instead of a scope or a sight.  And I did list the possibility of putting the tonkor near.  Finally the only reason my ranting seems "incoherent" is that's when you tuned out to the rest of the post.

4.  A discussion involves understanding and compromise something I've ONLY seen from NKDG in this exchange of posts of nerf vs. leave it alone and in regards to the self damage that's literally the only point I'd concede on in all this.  So between that person and I is a conversation between you, EDYinnit and I is NOT what I would consider "conversation".  Also a "discussion" doesn't involve me repeating myself every other reply post to people who've claimed to have read mine.  I'm entirely within my rights to be mad though being mad in and of itself will bring nothing, however that doesn't change the fact that this hamster wheel of a "discussion" has worn my patience thin.

P.S. Good job on thinking you made a point by quoting the last sentence of a multi paragraph post.  At least I try to include EVERYTHING I'm replying to >_>.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Irorone
Grammar

[IRVoidGuru]

here is the point every single 1 of u is mission , there is Nothing wrong with tonkor as it stands now . if its a weapon you think is not fun for u then dont use it . i personally agree with previous comments. other launchers are under used due to self damage and the secura penta is no different , the 1 true player i know who uses penta all the time and enjoys is. uses trinity and says he likes it cuz with 99 percent bless it cant kill him. id like to see other launchers get a self damage cap rather then remove this weapons limiter. there has to be a weapon at the top and tbh tonkor and simulor atm are them , they deal more damage easyer to use and have room for extra mods . these are all necessary for how gameplay should be

[NKDG]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

that would be an option for easy enemys not an easy difficulty game mode , either way trying to say tonkor makes the game easy in itself is the problem in the first place. i find that more weapons need to be brought up to this standard and that is Exactly what the devs are working on in the new Damage system , before anymore Nerfs or Damage reworks , weapon reworks . or anything of the such. how about we give the devs the free time to , idk , fix multi shot and add weapon scaling. this conversation is basicly a leading 1, lets be honest with ourselves if this weapon gets nerfed its Simulor next . DE needs to stop giving in to ppl crying Op. its getting old for the community who likes the weapon , and for DE themselves  

 

P.S. at least with it how it is , it has room for more mods like firestorm , fast hands , and such while still dealing out decent game damage , why would u down this weapon that actually has the build freedom that players want. sure most ppl who use this weapon dont think of that and opt into more damage but that is because we are starved for better damage output witch this weapon gives  

In this game, easy enemies are synonymous with easy enemies, unless you really wanna count hacking as anything other than a small minigame. I don't think tonkor in itself makes the game easy, but it's kinda like giving you the RYNO (I really hope you know what that is if you're on a Sony console. If not, I'm gonna go cry in a corner) midway through the game. There's no downside to using it, why give me any other weapon at that point? Thus, the downside must be added (uncapped self damage) so you'll want to move onto other weapons. Also, I'm not quite sure if anyone knows HOW damage 3.0 is going to address ingame issues. For me, I'm inclined to hope it will fix scaling by possibly adding a lvl cap, capping dmg at a much lower area, and adding new mechanics to make the game scale (more manics/techs/bombards/scorches, less nullies and modular corpus in terms of mechanics) I hope this cause I want slightly more difficulty and challenge from this game, we're skilled warriors, not gods among men imo. Simulors need a base mechanics change to achieve balance imo, nerfing damage is just stupid cause all that'll do is bring it into obscurity. There's gotta be an idea for a mechanic that will more viably mesh into the game than screen nuke right? Like for me I thought like magnetic claymores dealing 350/400 base dmg on explosion, with a vortex pulling in enemies dealing DoT affected by mods. Of course, this means a lot of programming changes and balancing issues that would need to be addressed with its ammo/mag pool, but it'd be really cool imo...

PS: thus I only argue for uncapped self damage. 

[IRVoidGuru]

2 minutes ago, NKDG said:

In this game, easy enemies are synonymous with easy enemies, unless you really wanna count hacking as anything other than a small minigame. I don't think tonkor in itself makes the game easy, but it's kinda like giving you the RYNO (I really hope you know what that is if you're on a Sony console. If not, I'm gonna go cry in a corner) midway through the game. There's no downside to using it, why give me any other weapon at that point? Thus, the downside must be added (uncapped self damage) so you'll want to move onto other weapons. Also, I'm not quite sure if anyone knows HOW damage 3.0 is going to address ingame issues. For me, I'm inclined to hope it will fix scaling by possibly adding a lvl cap, capping dmg at a much lower area, and adding new mechanics to make the game scale (more manics/techs/bombards/scorches, less nullies and modular corpus in terms of mechanics) I hope this cause I want slightly more difficulty and challenge from this game, we're skilled warriors, not gods among men imo. Simulors need a base mechanics change to achieve balance imo, nerfing damage is just stupid cause all that'll do is bring it into obscurity. There's gotta be an idea for a mechanic that will more viably mesh into the game than screen nuke right? Like for me I thought like magnetic claymores dealing 350/400 base dmg on explosion, with a vortex pulling in enemies dealing DoT affected by mods. Of course, this means a lot of programming changes and balancing issues that would need to be addressed with its ammo/mag pool, but it'd be really cool imo...

PS: thus I only argue for uncapped self damage. 

or rise its mastery requirement through the roof. its mastery has never represented its power output

[NKDG]

10 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Explosives don't have friendly fire, though.

What I mean is the actual projectile interacts with other players, this should not be... Thanks for pointing that out so I could clarify, I have a way of screwing up my word choices XD

[NKDG]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

or rise its mastery requirement through the roof. its mastery has never represented its power output

Mastery has never represented actual skill either... my old clan's best player was MR8. He just decided he didn't care to get the primaries and was fine with the rank he stopped at. No, mastery represents how much grind you've put into lvling weapons and frames. Nothing more. Thus, upping the mastery is only a temporary solution AT BEST and completely pointless at worst. Why not just remove the self dmg cap? Caviat being explosive projectiles no longer interact with other players...

also, disregarding something to me is like saying you don't know how to respond. One of the myriad of things you disregarded was my reference... I'm gonna go cry in a corner now :/

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[Robm]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

here is the point every single 1 of u is mission , there is Nothing wrong with tonkor as it stands now . if its a weapon you think is not fun for u then dont use it . i personally agree with previous comments. other launchers are under used due to self damage and the secura penta is no different , the 1 true player i know who uses penta all the time and enjoys is. uses trinity and says he likes it cuz with 99 percent bless it cant kill him. id like to see other launchers get a self damage cap rather then remove this weapons limiter. there has to be a weapon at the top and tbh tonkor and simulor atm are them , they deal more damage easyer to use and have room for extra mods . these are all necessary for how gameplay should be

I agree this is the reason I never use the other explosive because of the high self damage. To be fair the Tonkor sucks without proper mods. You need to really mod that thing to make it good. 

[NKDG]

12 hours ago, BrokenMirror said:

Yeah, this is the main reason why I cant have nice things such as Explosive weapons. It is 100% "People are A******s" and some RNG, where the Penta with splitchamber sometimes bounces off the split projectile back at you, for no reason whatsoever, Or My favroite, the angstrum sometimes decides to fire Straight down for no reason(Bad Aim + Self Damage=badtime)

Although, I still stand by my idea of static damage, or percentage based damage, The fact that I can unstoppably nuke myself by accident is really awkward and annoying, And if all explosives still did a static, non-lethal but relievent damage, it would make everyone happy, Say 400-500. That way you cant nuke yourself, but you can still be slightly punished by being bad at the weapon.

Although I actually stopped running multi shot on but a few weapons (kullstar and angstrum being 2 of those few) I feel your pain. As infuriating as OHKO'ing yourself is, I do think it's an appropriate risk for that aoe damage, and at least you can see the grenade bounce off before you detonate (again, I don't use multishot on penta). I haven't actually had RNG hit me like that on angstrum... maybe I'm just lucky? Idk...

[NKDG]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

here is the point every single 1 of u is mission , there is Nothing wrong with tonkor as it stands now . if its a weapon you think is not fun for u then dont use it . i personally agree with previous comments. other launchers are under used due to self damage and the secura penta is no different , the 1 true player i know who uses penta all the time and enjoys is. uses trinity and says he likes it cuz with 99 percent bless it cant kill him. id like to see other launchers get a self damage cap rather then remove this weapons limiter. there has to be a weapon at the top and tbh tonkor and simulor atm are them , they deal more damage easyer to use and have room for extra mods . these are all necessary for how gameplay should be

HAHAHA!!! Sorry... I'll be the first to contradict your statement. There's something wrong with tonkor, it's cheating in terms of its own mechanics. Launchers deal uncapped self damage, except tonkor. Consistency is key here. Again, I'll use my cheating gambler analogy and apply it to your "if you don't like don't play" argument. "If you don't like cheating, don't do it! Let others cheat though!" No, the cheater should have his tools for cheating taken away, we shouldn't bend the rules to where everyone cheats. Also, we don't have statistics as to why people don't use the other launchers, but I'm guessing it's more the fact that tonkor does the all important supermeta crit everyone's in love with. Also, I use secura penta with Vauban so I can hold em where I want them or I can shock em, so there! You now have data that falls in line with your statement 50% of the time.

[NKDG]

1 hour ago, Robm said:

I agree this is the reason I never use the other explosive because of the high self damage. To be fair the Tonkor sucks without proper mods. You need to really mod that thing to make it good. 

I shall also contradict this, as it 1-shots lvl 30 mobs unmodded, something most guns can only dream of doing without mods. So I don't think it particularly sucks as bad as you say

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[TheBrsrkr]

50 minutes ago, Irorone said:

No points huh?

1. There are objectively more powerful weapons real world or otherwise.  Boar prime vs. sobek how many do you see of that matchup believe me when I say the stat chance aug from meridian is NEVER used on that weapon.  Trying to institute a system where all weapons are basically sidegrades of each other seems to be the goals of you and EDYinnit.

I didn't say no points, I said little. And poor. 

Yes, there is a weapon trend. There is a very hazy weapon progression in Warframe forming not very strict tiers. Some weapons would be more or less powerful. But you don't bring a nuke to a knife fight. Even in the powerful weapons there are many disparities that make them unique and comparable,with different strengths and weaknesses. While there may be a strongest weapon, there wouldn't be an overall best weapon. This is what the tonkor does. There's no reason to use anything else, and it actively hampers the use of other weapons. An overall reduction of diversity. Not a good thing. Balance doesn't mean everything is exactly the same in every way, it means that the risks and work you take are proportional to the rewards you get. 

2 hours ago, Irorone said:

.

2.  And I described the limiting factors of the tonkor guess you didn't read the entire post though >_>.  So to list them again regular reloading, low stat proc chance (stat procs scale infinitely unlike the raw or crit damage), and a requirement to either direct hit or bounce a grenade near a group of enemies on a timed explosive.

 

And to run them over again, these factors barely limit anything. Spending a lot of time reloading would be properly limiting if everything didn't die in one shot in a 5m radius , and if you didn't have 2. It doesn't matter if you reload 30 times in a minute if you spend all of the other time killing literally everything in sight. It's not downtime if you're not actually down. 

Low (actually average) status chance is not a limiting factor. T

It is a factor the Tonkor doesn't have, sure, but it doesn't reduce the effectiveness or require a workaround. You wouldn't call no knockdowns on the Braton Prime a limiting factor because the sonic or has it. Also, what do you think of all that bloody crit? Are you just gonna ignore that? It doesn't scale infinitely because it doesn't need to scale infinitely. It scales high enough with all that  damage. Status weapons don't scale infinitely either, because even if you cut 60k health in half, it won't matter if you're doing 100 damage. 

Again, needing to hit the enemy with a shot is not a limiting factor. It's required for the bloody gun to work! Any gun! You have a bloody aim guide man, how is it difficult? Because the aim guide doesn't do EVERYTHING for you? Is this your first shooter? God forbid you have to AIM to HIT SOMETHING. 

3 hours ago, Irorone said:

 

3.  Melee? Massive risk factor?  Loki, valk, wukong, ivara as long as you don't sprint or bullet jump, saryn when you actually use all of her first three powers with the regeneration aug, any frame with high rank nara.  Also tonkor has an aim guide because it's one of the few weapons that would actually need a guide instead of a scope or a sight.  And I did list the possibility of putting the tonkor near.  Finally the only reason my ranting seems "incoherent" is that's when you tuned out to the rest of the post.

 

You still have to get within 2-5 metres  to use it, unlike EVERY GUN IN EXISTENCE. You take more fire, you're locked into animations especially for Covert Lethality , you're mostly single target or locked to a single group, it takes a way longer time than guns and generally has much less effective DPS, mostly due to the factors above. None of the frames or abilities you mentioned can remove any of those factors, only mitigate them. 

The Tonkor doesn't NEED a guide. In fact, every other grenade launcher deserves a guide more than the Tonkor, because they actually have proper limiting factors. Like killing yourself on a botched shot. The Tonkor fires in almost exactly the same arc as the Penta at a slightly faster speed I think. The Penta doesn't need an aim guide,you can judge the shots by sight.

The reason your ranting is incoherent is because it is ranting and not discussion. You say that melee is somehow comparable to a grenade launcher because you can instantly stealth kill enemies. This is not logical progression. 

3 hours ago, Irorone said:

.4.  A discussion involves understanding and compromise something I've ONLY seen from NKDG in this exchange of posts of nerf vs. leave it alone and in regards to the self damage that's literally the only point I'd concede on in all this.  So between that person and I is a conversation between you, EDYinnit and I is NOT what I would consider "conversation".  

All you have done so far is to completely misrepresent both of our points, go off on wild, irrelevant tangents and whine about nerfing in general. Not to mention your lack of counterpoints to the points we make on the issue, which is why we repeat them. I will not agree with you unless and until you provide those points. That is how discussion works, you present your points coherently and respectfully to try to convince the other side of your line of thinking. Not 10+ run on paragraphs of wild ranting and raving about am integral part of the balance process because you think we're not affected by other players in a multiplayer game. 

 

3 hours ago, Irorone said:

.  I'm entirely within my rights to be mad though being mad in and of itself will bring nothing, however that doesn't change the fact that this hamster wheel of a "discussion" has worn my patience thin.

I honestly don't care if you are mad. Your points on your opinions are what matters here. Either discuss your points in a respectful manner, or don't speak at all. 

 

3 hours ago, Irorone said:

.P. S. Good job on thinking you made a point by quoting the last sentence of a multi paragraph post.  At least I try to include EVERYTHING I'm replying to >_>.

There was no point to it. I didn't want to dig through editing an entire rage filled spiel to cut out the  2 or 3 lines you actually make a point in. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

Calling me on fallacies eh?  Ironic how many you're prone to yourself.

1.  It's about the players huh?  Unless you're in the same camp as NKDG and ONLY want the self damage nerf then you are asking for the same kind of nerf that I was going off about earlier which is WILDLY unnecessary and trying to enforce that on ALL players is negative.  DE nerfs mesa's peacemaker because of "ez mode" arguments like yours now ask yourself when's the last time you saw somebody using a level 30 mesa intentionally >_>.  Again it's about the players huh? WHAT ABOUT THE ONES THAT LIKE TONKOR.  Saying that one part of racial segregation makes it solidly analagous to weapon balancing in a video game?  That's like saying all lizards are geckos because geckos are lizards.

I could start listing them directly again, if you'd prefer.

DE nerfed Peacemaker because it was degenerate. Push 4, walk away from game, come back being the only one that could kill anything for zero interaction. The new Peacemaker is much better, it just has too large of an energy drain base. Mesa's other abilities are as much to blame for her unpopularity as the Peacemaker change itself; the aimbotting anti-gameplay 4 was just so ruthlessly effective it outweighed the lacking lustre of the other three.

You're still allowed to use the Tonkor. As I keep saying, if you like the Tonkor, you will continue to use it, balance changes and all. Anything more than that is just apologism for the imbalance it holds currently.

It wasn't "one part" analogous, it was the logical extreme of the exact same argument. They can choose to avoid consequence by obeying societal restrictions instead of freedom to access all that is mechanically available. People can choose not to be made irrelevant by a Timmy and his Fisher-Price Launcher by obeying the societal restriciton of private parties only, instead of being free to use the mechanically available public matchmaking.

Plus, it was never adequately addressed that the exact same argument holds true in the opposite: Tonkor users can make their private parties with people that don't mind (or find) the negative influence, too.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

2.  It's called fire rate mods something that you know WORKS for weapons with a higher mag capacity.  Also you didn't really refute me with your logic here when you're basically not taking into account AT ALL the people who like the current tonkor "because ez mode" btw the same kind of thing you accuse other people of doing to your opinions there's a particular word for that.

The Ogris has a zero point four shots per second rate of fire, and only 30 less average damage per shot on base stats (not counting Headcrits, see later). Increasing rate of fire just means that it loses a greater proportion of the (increased) burst DPS as sustained damage because, oh look, bigger reload time that now happens more often.
It can't afford Heavy Cal without becoming almost completely useless (and dangerous), unlike the Tonkor. It cannot afford to spend a slot on fire rate without the end result being just as inferior anyway.

No idea what your frothing last was specifically in reference to there, you've already deviated from point-per-point at that stage.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

3.  No it's not.  By bringing down the outliers that's literally taking away what makes a weapon special and calling that what makes it special >_>; bringing down the outliers is ONLY THAT bringing down the outliers you pretend that it makes the other options viable when in reality you may be killing the only viable weapon in a category at the highest tiers with no other option in that same weapon category.  Bringing other options adds diversity IN ANY SENSE.  Developers only use nerfing so much instead of buffing because it's so much easier for them to implement it generally pisses off ANY player base.

~special snowflake~ anecdotal nonsense has no place in this argument. It'd still have all the properties that aren't degenerate. You'd still use it if you liked the tonkor, not the risk-free power that it holds.

Your logic is flawed, please revise.

Mathematically, improving lower proportions and reducing higher proportions do the exact same thing to improve the effects of the lower proportioned options.

If three out of 200 things are strongest, then you can equally make 197 things more likely to be used by nerfing three, as you can by buffing 197.

Also, if the Power Three weren't so strong, then content targeted at challenging the highest power wouldn't be at its current level of sponginess, would it? Then everything would be even more viable. Oh joy!

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

4.  It's called having different tiers/grades of weapons if every weapon was just a sidegrade of a baseline weapon this'd be TF2 not warframe >_>.  We have enemies that go across a massive set of levels (up to level 100 or so in non infinites) and expecting every weapon to be just as viable as another just does not work in games like these after all why get new weapons if your current function just as well?

This is my favourite argument that completely defeats itself.

Why get new weapons if your current functions just as well?

Why get any other weapon when your Tonkor is always five times better?

I'm not expecting MK-1 weapons to take on sorties, but when things like the Boltor and Soma Primes, which were previously considered power outliers, are now considered mediocre at best, but suffered no nerfs in the interim, there's an obvious issue with overcrept power that needs to be addressed.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

5.  Tonkor is a higher tier weapon that instead of lots of raw damage gains lots of crit chance and multiplier in comparison to penta and ogris.  Also unless this

-U17.3-

didn't stick SHUT UP ABOUT THE HEADSHOT BONUSES ALREADY.  WE'VE LITERALLY ALREADY BEEN THROUGH THIS BIT.  Even if didn't, ALL the explosive weapons get the autoheadshot which includes kunai thanks to the concealed explosives mod (which guess what with a spira prime is basically a rapid fire tonkor, still has self damage but you're complaining more about the output from what I've seen).

But the Tonkor doesn't have drastically lower raw damage to offset its crit stats!

• It has 25 less damage than a Penta (50 for Secura Penta), but 3.5 times the crit chance and 25% more crit multiplier.
• It has 175 less damage than the Ogris, but 7 times the crit chance and the same 25% higher crit multiplier, also it doesn't take hours to fire and it has higher blast radius.

It is more so to other launchers (in damage) than what the Soma Prime is even to the Gorgon.

Yes, we've already been through that update's 'fix'. That fix did nothing but subtract it as 'counting' for headshots in the mission stats and Headhunter challenge. Autoheadshotting still happens.

You seem to be unaware of headcrits: On non-Crewman enemies, critically striking the head adds an extra 2x multiplier. Now tell me, do all explosives equally benefit from headshots? Or does the one that crits a majority, if not all of the time enjoy a far better bonus on most targets?

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

6.  Not all player input is valued by damage output and kill count, which seems to be the only ones YOU care about.  As a nekros I can get my squad NINETY TWO MODS in the space of four waves of draco.  I may have a low kill count, damage output etc.  but I'm a VERY valuable member of those parties because of that fact and even then expecting a mk-1 braton to do just as much as a tonkor without a well thought build/mod setup (which is by the way effectively what you're asking for without explaining the baseline you're advocating) is just stupid.  Some weapons are just gonna be better than other GET OVER IT literally EVERY game with an actual selection of weapons will have weapons that stand out hammering the nails that stick out works for a house not a game.  There are other options to a tonkor to out put lots of damage on a group not even necessarily in the explosives category so stop thinking that fixing this weapon will in any REAL sense "fix weapon balancing" since it'll just end up a chain of nerfing the flavor of the week.  When they reworked at least she still could put out the kind of damage she used to (ironically more if you tweak your gear right) just not with the press 4 alone.

Nice ad hominem bro. If you stopped raving for a moment you'd perhaps notice the several times I've said I don't go out for highest damage. But some people do, and they deserve that diversity you keep going on about.

100% of weapons don't have to be comparable at highest power level.

A mere 2% of weapons being comparable at the highest power level is too few.

Again, we can fix that by buffing 98%, or by reducing the 2%. One of which might actually be accomplished without breaking the entire game in half.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

7.  OTHER PLAYERS ARE NOT PUNISHED YOU LITERALLY HAVE NOT MENTIONED IN ONE WAY OTHER THAN THE COMPLETELY POINTLESS SCOREBOARD AT THE END.  You get all the xp, loot, and completion rewards of a high dps teamember so in no way are you punished unless you literally bring NOTHING to a squad that expects you to do SOMETHING (i.e. en vamp, blind, etc.).  Even then that punishment is social in nature not engineered by the game's functions itself stop expecting a game fix to truly change human nature in this manner.  Also PVE BALANCE? Seems to me like unless everybody is cookie cutter on the stats board while SOMEHOW using different gear you're never gonna be happy which SURPRISE you never will if DE follows that design philosophy.

INCOHERENT SHOUTING.

Exp, loot and completion rewards are not everything people look for in a game. Being able to play the game generally is something people look for in a game. The Tonkor's risk-free, huge-reward nature removes agency of fellow players to contribute through fighting.

Just earlier I was in a T3 Survival and got sick of the obligatory Timmy flying past obliterating the enemies I was trying to fight in an instant over and over again. There was no point in trying to compete, he can move as fast as I, but output more damage to more enemies and instantly. So I just sat in a corner bored out of my wits until loot happened. Yay, loot...

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

8.  I'm not hating on the brakk I'm stating that as a fact they nerfed it LITERALLY because of people complaining that it was a high tier sidearm that like YOUR arguments entail a LOT OF PEOPLE USED.  Guess what they nerfed it instead of adding primary shotguns to outperform the sidearm by your argument #Diversity.  Also one of the properties of the Tonkor IS it's high damage nerfing that is LITERALLY nerfing one of the core aspects people like about it.

They nerfed it not because of complaints, but because it was statistically better, with its non-falloff, tight spread and solid, evenly-distributed damage.

Guess what, they realised primary shotguns weren't as powerful as they ought to be, and buffed them in the end.

None of that has stopped me using it.

 

Anyone that likes the Tonkor 'for its high damage' instead of its properties will just seamlessly migrate to the next flavour of the month without incident once the Tonkor is balanced. As most people did when the Brakk got nerfed. Big deal.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

9.  a. Amprex but has MASSIVE crit stats and chaining which when used with mirage's abilities give it that "instant payoff" you hate so much about tonkor.

     b. PFFFT no aim, no skill on a tonkor? do you even know how this weapon works?  It only explodes on contact with things like enemies and cryopods, it has projectile dropoff and it isn't even 100% accurate on it's own guide trail anymore.

     c. Torid except that constant field stacked with effects like spore now make torid and ignis ridiculously powerful since you can pop those kind of on hit effects at a literally machine gun pace in an aoe.  It is competitive and in some ways more so than tonkor but no surprise you don't care about it because it's "not the weapon everyone's noob tubing with".

     d.  Atomos, deals damage over time because it's a THROWER WEAPON THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO JUST LIKE A GRENADE IS SUPPOSED TO BLOW **** UP.

     e.   Maybe you should check the MULTIPLE vids where concealed explosives stacked with things like spores/resonance is a top tier strategy before you try relegating it (as in a t4d if you're gonna try you're usual shtick).  It's not the same burst damage as a tonkor but it is by NO means weak.  I've seen plenty of people who use concealed explosives and with the right builds it's plenty effective.

     f. Ignis guess what? LITERALLY flows back into the thrower AND proc based arguments.  Even then?  Guess what I still wreck rank 30ish enemies (highest tier of enemies before going into keys/sorties) with an ignis on characters like ember/saryn BEFORE a tonkor user can even line up a shot most of the time.  Does it need a nerf now?  Give it blast and GUESS WHAT it now has knockdown cc something a tonkor can't sustain regularly.  DOES IT NEED NERFED NOW?  OH AMMO ECONOMY YOU SAY TO THAT I SAY AMMO MUTATION MOD LITERALLY EVERY HOSE WEAPON USES ONE.

• It's still over time. Doesn't matter how much you crit off 7.5 base damage, it's still going to take a while to match what the Tonkor does instantly... AOE is still less than direct damage, too, unlike the Tonkor explosion. and don't use warframes to muddy the waters, Mirage makes everything feel broken. Mirage also makes you shoot what, 6 Tonkor grenades at once? It's totally irrelevant to the comparison.
• It explodes on contact or shortly after coming to rest. If the burden of aiming and 'skill' was so bad, you wouldn't see EVERYONE USING IT because some people just DON'T HAVE THE APTITUDE. Just like how not everyone can effectively wield a bow. Any aim guide is still more than a precision weapon enjoys, and it's still accurate 90% of the time, even with Heavy Cal.
• My Ivara's Navigator can make a Heavy Cal Ogris functional, doesn't make the Ogris better than a Tonkor. Warframe synergy is a strawman argument.
• Continuous weapons are meant to do damage over time, the risk being that enemies shoot you until that damage adds up. Meanwhile, explosives due to instantaneous reward are meant to proportionally harm the user if used carelessly OH WAIT!
• People use Mirage's extra projectiles to do silly things with Thunderbolt, doesn't mean it actually scales. Turns out Resonance can make a weakspot on the head, too. Or anywhere a person can melee. Or anything else that does more than 250 damage. Irrelevant.
• So now I have 2-3 slots sacrificed for the AOE and sustained effect, Firestorm, Mutation and possibly Sinister Reach/Ruinous Extension. Where the damage at bro? Timmy's got no cares, he does what I do over 10 or more seconds in an instant.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

some raving lunacy

You know why people like me even bother replying to this?  It's because we don't want DE to look at this and think YOUR insane idea of "balance" is the majority voice on the subject and then employ it to the dissatisfaction of those WHO ACTUALLY USE THE WEAPON.  Am I mad?  YES because this is the NTH nerf X thread where SOMEBODY decides something is OP and it wants it nerfed unilaterally and people like YOU disregard our points on the matter as much you accuse us of disregarding yours. 

Cool your jets bro.

I'm providing evidence to support my arguments, you're defending your toy because you say it's fun and nobody else's fun is relevant so long as you get yours. Fair's fair, but you're doing nothing to help your argument by frothing at the proverbial mouth.

Am I disregarding your points? Only those that are abject fallacies and/or serve to muddy the waters. Anything else I provide a counterargument for, just like you're trying to do to refute my own.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

that would be an option for easy enemys not an easy difficulty game mode , either way trying to say tonkor makes the game easy in itself is the problem in the first place. i find that more weapons need to be brought up to this standard and that is Exactly what the devs are working on in the new Damage system , before anymore Nerfs or Damage reworks , weapon reworks . or anything of the such. how about we give the devs the free time to , idk , fix multi shot and add weapon scaling. this conversation is basicly a leading 1, lets be honest with ourselves if this weapon gets nerfed its Simulor next . DE needs to stop giving in to ppl crying Op. its getting old for the community who likes the weapon , and for DE themselves  

 

P.S. at least with it how it is , it has room for more mods like firestorm , fast hands , and such while still dealing out decent game damage , why would u down this weapon that actually has the build freedom that players want. sure most ppl who use this weapon dont think of that and opt into more damage but that is because we are starved for better damage output witch this weapon gives  

Easy enemies is synonymous with an easy mode. Yeah, the simulor probably should be next, but you know what they say about making an omelette. The Tonkor is just the first of several eggs that have to be cracked for the betterment of hundreds of other weapons.

Say no to power creep.

3 hours ago, Irorone said:

No points huh?

1. There are objectively more powerful weapons real world or otherwise.  Boar prime vs. sobek how many do you see of that matchup believe me when I say the stat chance aug from meridian is NEVER used on that weapon.  Trying to institute a system where all weapons are basically sidegrades of each other seems to be the goals of you and EDYinnit.

2.  And I described the limiting factors of the tonkor guess you didn't read the entire post though >_>.  So to list them again regular reloading, low stat proc chance (stat procs scale infinitely unlike the raw or crit damage), and a requirement to either direct hit or bounce a grenade near a group of enemies on a timed explosive.

3.  Melee? Massive risk factor?  Loki, valk, wukong, ivara as long as you don't sprint or bullet jump, saryn when you actually use all of her first three powers with the regeneration aug, any frame with high rank nara.  Also tonkor has an aim guide because it's one of the few weapons that would actually need a guide instead of a scope or a sight.  And I did list the possibility of putting the tonkor near.  Finally the only reason my ranting seems "incoherent" is that's when you tuned out to the rest of the post.

4.  A discussion involves understanding and compromise something I've ONLY seen from NKDG in this exchange of posts of nerf vs. leave it alone and in regards to the self damage that's literally the only point I'd concede on in all this.  So between that person and I is a conversation between you, EDYinnit and I is NOT what I would consider "conversation".  Also a "discussion" doesn't involve me repeating myself every other reply post to people who've claimed to have read mine.  I'm entirely within my rights to be mad though being mad in and of itself will bring nothing, however that doesn't change the fact that this hamster wheel of a "discussion" has worn my patience thin.

P.S. Good job on thinking you made a point by quoting the last sentence of a multi paragraph post.  At least I try to include EVERYTHING I'm replying to >_>.

1. The best status is death. Even that other thread a few down about status shotties even has people mainly saying they use them for novelty as much as anything, knowing that damage would win out overall.
2. Well, let's explore:
   1. Reloading is an effective product of fire rate and mag size, as well as the actual effect of shots. A Brakk's reloading reduces burst to 38.56% for sustained damage, a Tonkor's reduces burst to 33.33%. An Ogris only reduces to 83.33% but its atrocious fire rate means that the Tonkor sustains almost twice as much damage, straight from base.
   2. Statuses generally don't scale infinitely. Some are static (such as Viral, 50% HP is 50% HP no matter what), some add up to relevancy the higher you go which is infinite scaling (corrosion), some diminish (heat and toxin), some are just a function like Blast, and you don't need a high rate of proccing on anything but Corrosive and DoTs.
   3. Aim guide. Exorbitant damage allows a mod slot to be free for a compensatory utility mod. No more of a drawback than most projectile weapons. Less, even, because of the utterly affordable compensatory mod.
3. Even including Naramon shadowstep (which presumes a crit weapon, limiting choice), those still all have more risk except Valkyr. Unless soloing, an ally can cause crossfire and get you killed before you can kill the targets. Warframe-stealth suffers Nullifying and has an energy load (still relevant even with Zenurik due to energy leech eximi, Disruptors). Valkyr's utterly broken too. Free godmode, with no backlash because the backlash benefits from Narrow Minded's range reduction, while the duration improves efficiency! Genius.
4. You want to know what I look for more broadly with launchers? Here:
   1. Reduce proportional-self-damage to a more manageable level (that still scales with output) by either increasing the equivalent percentile of damage reduction form offensive to personal damage, or making mods literally increase self damage by only a percentage of their effect on offensive output.
   2. Address self-status to avoid issues e.g. Magnetic that may still be disproportionally punishing to the player. (possibly making a forced Impact or Blast the only resulting status for self-damaging)
   3. Give proportional self-damage to the Tonkor. Optionally, add an alt-fire that does no offensive or self-damage to preserve 'grenade jumping'. Optionally also allow this to simply forced-proc blast to enemies with no associated damage, to make it somewhat useful than strictly novelty.
   4. Remove headcrit multipliers from skewing damage equations or remove autoheadshotting. Potentially, double launcher base damage but make launchers only ever bodyshot, improving their performance on targets normally immune to autoheadshot behaviour and evening the damage disparity between normal launchers and the crits of Tonkor; avoid making this possible doubled base damage increase self-damage back to an unhealthy state.

[Magneu]

@Irorone; Just cherry-picking here (as I'm short on time and lack the time to flesh out a full argument), your analogy with Covert Lethality is horrible.

CL requires a certain, rare mod.

CL limits you to extreme melee range.

CL is single target, and at best will get you roughly .5 seconds for a frontal finisher, and 1 second for a rear finisher.

CL is only useable in scaling missions by a handful of frames that can instigate finishers.

By comparison, the Tonkor is AOE, will one hit decently into the triple digits (with half-decent modding), and if it ever falls off, can easily be accommodated by frames like Mirage and Chroma (when even 135 gunners are OHKO by a Tonkor with Chroma in the silmulcram (well past the point of balance), that's too much)), and, most importantly, can deliver that spike damage at range with no personal risk.

Just my two cents. Maybe I'll be back later, maybe I won't. 

Oh, and P.S.

Caps do nothing to get your argument across, it just makes you look less accredited. 

[IRVoidGuru]

2 hours ago, Robm said:

I agree this is the reason I never use the other explosive because of the high self damage. To be fair the Tonkor sucks without proper mods. You need to really mod that thing to make it good. 

finally a positive comment ! ty my friend

[NKDG]

Hold hold! Little too high on the insults here, This is a little too high on tension to produce a valid debate. Best thing to do would be a bit to calm down and don't triple team the poor guy until he calms down as well...

Also, what are the three of you arguing for??? I argue for uncapped self damage, nothing else. But you guys just seem to be arguing for the sake of argument, isn't that kinda pointless?

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[TheBrsrkr]

41 minutes ago, NKDG said:

...Also, what are the three of you arguing for??? I argue for uncapped self damage, nothing else. But you guys just seem to be arguing for the sake of argument, isn't that kinda pointless?

With such a large AoE that would be rather impractical. If the crit damage is normalized it'll pretty much fix everything about it. 

 

[NKDG]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

With such a large AoE that would be rather impractical. If the crit damage is normalized it'll pretty much fix everything about it. 

 

Not really... I've recently rebuilt tonkor and I can say the aoe isn't in the slightest unavoidable. It's quite a reasonable request imo...

Normalized as in...

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[letir]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

With such a large AoE that would be rather impractical. If the crit damage is normalized it'll pretty much fix everything about it. 

Even without explosive headshot Tonkor still will be most powerful launcher without self-damage.

[Godzilla853]

I still don't understand why it matters that it has no self damage it may not make sense but it's a game, and this game has things that are unreal.

[NKDG]

4 minutes ago, Godzilla853 said:

I still don't understand why it matters that it has no self damage it may not make sense but it's a game, and this game has things that are unreal.

A game must have a set of consistencies to enhance immersion. The tonkor is, as I stated before, the cheater of the bunch. Thus, its tools for cheating the system must be removed (uncapping the self damage.)

also, how would you like it if gravity suddenly didn't work in the game? But it's a game, and this game has some things that are unreal right? No, you rely on consistencies to play the game. Thus, my point has an example at least to point out your false correlation. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[Godzilla853]

Okay now I see.

[TheBrsrkr]

46 minutes ago, letir said:

Even without explosive headshot Tonkor still will be most powerful launcher without self-damage.

It'll still be stronger damage wise, sure, but not by such a massive margin. The other limiting factors would actually be limiting instead of token. It's base damage may have to be increased though, since the ray trace method I'm 90% sure DE uses won't work on explosives, so no head crits at all. 

@NKDG  I meant the headshot bonus on explosives. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by TheBrsrkr
New forums, bleh

[NKDG]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It'll still be stronger damage wise, sure, but not by such a massive margin. The other limiting factors would actually be limiting instead of token. It's base damage may have to be increased though, since the ray trace method I'm 90% sure DE uses won't work on explosives, so no head crits at all. 

@NKDG  I meant the headshot bonus on explosives. 

But... but... but... that affects ALL the launchers... my secura penta really can't take a damage halving all that well... how would you address that??