Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[(XBOX)XiiX ToM XiiX]

If you don't like it don't use it. Nerfing a fun weapon just because it's strong is unfair on everyone who put the time into them.

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

So your anecdote. I could post my T3MD run I just did where I outdamaged two Tonkor wielders too, but that's neglecting context.

A permanent WOF Ember generally suffers in actual damage output due to the efficiency problems of both Corrupted Power Strength mods. Also, against Infested, healers and disruptors completely shaft that untargetable damage.

That MR12 player with the Tonkor.. you have no way of knowing how well-modded it was.

You - I mean, just look at your egregious currency balances - clearly have no obstructions left to anything in the game anyway. So you've almost certifiably got the absolute upper limit on power stuffed into your weapon. For all I know, all three players happened to have Steel Charge, further boosting your damage. Nekros has no polarity, making it viable. Ember's is Madurai, so also likely unless altered with Forma. Third player, you didn't mention the Warframe, so it could likely as not be another Madurai or unpolarised aura slot that would permit Steel Charge for best mod power gains.

See what the problem with anecdotes is? Far too many variables. I daresay if you and the MR12 swapped roles, you'd get an even greater disparity between damages, with you using a modded-to-the-eyeballs Tonkor, and him using melee of an unspecified level of power.

Thanks for admitting that the Tonkor isn't game breaking and can be out performed with proper setups and game knowledge :applause:

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Thanks for admitting that the Tonkor isn't game breaking and can be out performed with proper setups and game knowledge :applause:

Thanks for disregarding the many unknown variables and biasing the case :applause:

 

Amazing to think that a potatoed and forma'd MK-1 Braton stuffed with maxed mods could have the potential to outperform an unmodded Soma Prime, right? Groundbreaking revelations ITT.

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, (XB1)XiiX ToM XiiX said:

If you don't like it don't use it. Nerfing a fun weapon just because it's strong is unfair on everyone who put the time into them.

I don't like it, and I don't use it, and it still affects me because I have to play with people who like it and use it. When these people play with it, I cannot use what I like. Do you see the problem now?

Oh,and don't even start with that "don't play with Pugs or play alone"  spiel.. We've been over it already. It's a multiplayer game, and no player should be actively preventing another from playing the same game. 

[Robm]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I don't like it, and I don't use it, and it still affects me because I have to play with people who like it and use it. When these people play with it, I cannot use what I like. Do you see the problem now?

Oh,and don't even start with that "don't play with Pugs or play alone"  spiel.. We've been over it already. It's a multiplayer game, and no player should be actively preventing another from playing the same game. 

Based on your logic, I think we nerf Rhino because I can't play the way I want to play when people are playing him.

Please, your personal play style should not be a factor of why the Tonkor should be nerfed. And beside I would use what I like no matter whatever else brings anyways. 

[letir]

So, i did a little test.

Build: Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Critical Delay, Hammer Shot, 2 90% Elemental mods.

Aura: Corrosive projection x1.

 

T2 Survival.

Tonkot reliable oneshot Corrupted Gunner around 80-90 and doubleshot them on ~120-140 lvl. Lost effectivness around 190-210 lvl, deal about 10% damage.

Corrupted Lancers are softer and have less EHP, so they are dying easer.

Corrupted Crewens, Ancients and Butchers are pushovers and dying from one/doubleshot even on 200+ lvl.

Corrupted MOA - dying from 3-5 shots on 200+ lvl, because i don't have Cold against their shields.

 

One of the most braindead weapons in the game, but quite effective.

Edited April 6, 2016 by letir

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Robm said:

Based on your logic, I think we nerf Rhino because I can't play the way I want to play when people are playing him.

And how is that? Does Rhino lock down the entire map endlessly? Does Rhino kill literally everything on the map by himself before anyone else can? Is he forcing you to mill around doing nothing for half an hour? What exactly is he stopping you from doing? 

1 hour ago, Robm said:

.Please, your personal play style should not be a factor of why the Tonkor should be nerfed. And beside I would use what I like no matter whatever else brings anyways. 

It is not my playstyle that's being killed it's my ability to play. How can one play with no enemies to fight? How can one play if the enemy you can fight isn't even designed to be fought by you? How can one play if you are the only one ABLE to play? There is no logic here. 

[IceColdHawk]

Sorry Brsrkr i once again can't see nor understand how you can't use your fav. weapons when players got a tonkor with them. It's not like the tonkor has a 60m radius that obliterates anything in a press of a button.

I said it some pages before and i will say it again: Saying you can't get kills because of peoples with tonkor is a pure exaggeration and excuse to get it nerfed. 

Not to mention when you miss the nade, nobody dies. Now if you're up with penta users, well, they can easily detonate the nade above the enemies and always get easy kills.

Edited April 6, 2016 by IceColdHawk
small typo

[TheBrsrkr]

2 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

That post absolutely makes so sense, whatsoever... 

Serious question, how does it stop you from playing?

*T4 Defense, me with my Braton Prime/Karak Wraith/Penta 

Let me just take out this advancing group on the left, no one's on this side

*bang*

Okay then, maybe there's someone in front 

*bang*

Anyone coming down the stairs? I'll just he-

*bang*

What about behi-

*bang*

Repeat for 60 waves. 

Clearing out Ceres, random nodes with a guy with a Tonkor. I got a total of 30 kills in the entire 20 nodes we crawled through. I kept track because I had nothing else to do. 

Every bloody sortie ever without a weapon limiter. Even the ones with Radiation. 

Moon tileset, excavations,  survival. All surrounded by the same anticlimactic bang where everything dies everywhere.

I'm MR 12 because I'm too lazy to grind and have most of the mods in the game. Forget about me, I've played for a year,and I'll play anyway. What's an MR6 to do there? MR8? A brand new player? People we're trying to stick to the game as long as we've been playing. What are they to do? What about some random guy trying to clear a few nodes because it's about damn time? What is he to do? What about the three guys who created a game to have fun killing a bunch of meaningless faces for half an hour or so? What are they to do?  All of this excludes all the crap that is going to happen and will continue happening when an overpowered thing becomes too mainstream. We get things like nullifiers and raids, arbitrary alretium, Bursa spambots and horrible, horrible drop rates. I want nothing to do with it. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

23 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Sorry Brsrkr i once again can't see nor understand how you can't use your fav. weapons when players got a tonkor with them. It's not like the tonkor has a 60m radius that obliterares anything in a press of a button.

I said it some pages before and i will say it again: Saying you can't get kills because of peoples with tonkor is a pure exaggeration and excuse to get it nerfed. 

Not to mention when you miss the nade, nobody dies. Now if you're up with penta users, well, they can easily detonate the nade above the enemies and always get easy kills.

It doesn't have to starve 100% of the gameplay 100% of the time to still have a negative impact. Perhaps not as striking of an impact as Warframe-based issues that can have 100% effect and/or 100% uptime, but there's still a strong-enough impact there.

 

I've been in the situation myself where I'm trying to just chill, have a bit of casual fun shooting dudes in a Void Survival or something, because god knows I always need more ducats, when over and over again the obligatory Tonkor user flies in to interject like Kanye West - "Yo, I'mma let you finish shooting, but I just wanted to show that I have the best gun of all time. Also you've got nothing left to shoot at now anyway. Bye."

Did I get some kills between those incidents, yes, sure. Did I kill one or two of the enemies in that same pack before the Tonkor grenade obliterated the rest instantly? Yes.

Despite that, neither of those stopped the accumulating effect of feeling marginalised, like there was no point in trying, until I just got myself in a safe corner and alt-tabbed to find something productive to do with the time until loot happened, only coming back to pick up a little bit of Focus Convergence when it was available.

 

Anecdotal though that is too, it can happen. If it can happen then it mandates a change to stop players being affected in this way. Anything that disincentivises players from actually playing the missions they're in cannot be healthy to leave unaddressed.

 

 

Another claim that missed Tonkor grenades do nothing, which is strictly false. They still have a second chance at affecting the units after a bound, or affecting further units after the initial targets have passed.

If you shoot a Penta grenade and fail to detonate it early enough, it's exactly as useless for that first group because it's bounced clean past them.

If enemies get dangerously close, you can't fight them with a Penta without repositioning yourself. The Tonkor has no such qualms. Now which has the 'easier kills'?

Edited April 6, 2016 by EDYinnit

[RagingGrizzly]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

*T4 Defense, me with my Braton Prime/Karak Wraith/Penta 

Let me just take out this advancing group on the left, no one's on this side

*bang*

Okay then, maybe there's someone in front 

*bang*

Anyone coming down the stairs? I'll just he-

*bang*

What about behi-

*bang*

Repeat for 60 waves. 

Clearing out Ceres, random nodes with a guy with a Tonkor. I got a total of 30 kills in the entire 20 nodes we crawled through. I kept track because I had nothing else to do. 

Every bloody sortie ever without a weapon limiter. Even the ones with Radiation. 

Moon tileset, excavations,  survival. All surrounded by the same anticlimactic bang where everything dies everywhere.

I'm MR 12 because I'm too lazy to grind and have most of the mods in the game. Forget about me, I've played for a year,and I'll play anyway. What's an MR6 to do there? MR8? A brand new player? People we're trying to stick to the game as long as we've been playing. What are they to do? What about some random guy trying to clear a few nodes because it's about damn time? What is he to do? What about the three guys who created a game to have fun killing a bunch of meaningless faces for half an hour or so? What are they to do?  All of this excludes all the crap that is going to happen and will continue happening when an overpowered thing becomes too mainstream. We get things like nullifiers and raids, arbitrary alretium, Bursa spambots and horrible, horrible drop rates. I want nothing to do with it. 

Since when was people bringing Tonkors to everything a problem? Might as well say that about the Ogris. 

Tonkor shots are very easy to miss, and missing with the tonkor on high level play can be deadly. 

It's not OP, although it doesn't sound like the damage it can deal is the main problem you have with it (It does need a MR increase though) and saying that it takes the fun out of your game play just sounds (No offense) stupid.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

Since when was people bringing Tonkors to everything a problem? Might as well say that about the Ogris. 

Tonkor shots are very easy to miss, and missing with the tonkor on high level play can be deadly. 

It's not OP, although it doesn't sound like the damage it can deal is the main problem you have with it (It does need a MR increase though) and saying that it takes the fun out of your game play just sounds (No offense) stupid.

Must I repeat myself endlessly refuting the same rhetoric?

Quote

Aim guide

Quote

Hitting with other launchers can be deadly

Quote

Other weapons killing individual targets and/or over time when perfectly aimed leave you more vulnerable and for longer than a Tonkor miss

Quote

far lower risk/far greater reward is imbalanced by definition

Edited April 6, 2016 by EDYinnit

[IceColdHawk]

24 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

It doesn't have to starve 100% of the gameplay 100% of the time to still have a negative impact. Perhaps not as striking of an impact as Warframe-based issues that can have 100% effect and/or 100% uptime, but there's still a strong-enough impact there.

 

I've been in the situation myself where I'm trying to just chill, have a bit of casual fun shooting dudes in a Void Survival or something, because god knows I always need more ducats, when over and over again the obligatory Tonkor user flies in to interject like Kanye West - "Yo, I'mma let you finish shooting, but I just wanted to show that I have the best gun of all time. Also you've got nothing left to shoot at now anyway. Bye."

Did I get some kills between those incidents, yes, sure. Did I kill one or two of the enemies in that same pack before the Tonkor grenade obliterated the rest instantly? Yes.

Despite that, neither of those stopped the accumulating effect of feeling marginalised, like there was no point in trying, until I just got myself in a safe corner and alt-tabbed to find something productive to do with the time until loot happened, only coming back to pick up a little bit of Focus Convergence when it was available.

 

Anecdotal though that is too, it can happen. If it can happen then it mandates a change to stop players being affected in this way. Anything that disincentivises players from actually playing the missions they're in cannot be healthy to leave unaddressed.

It doesn't matter whether people successfully hit a grenade into a group or it's a soma prime with shred, shredding through all the people. Not to mention it shreds through nullifiers too. And i already said that penta does it better than tonkor, just with the exception that tonkor deals more damage (which really isn't needed until you're into a very very high level) and exchanges self-damage for rocket jump. Or i can just go with chroma and obliterate everything with ignis or atomos. Nobody mentions these. And i can name tons of other stuff that could probably kill your enjoyment of the game. 

You think tonkor is the odd one out that makes this game boring? No. Wanna know what makes this game actually boring for most of us? Absurd grind and the endless repetition. Not a guy getting more kills than someone else.

You probably find it rude from me to say, but i find it an actual helpful advice. Don't get too "mememe" because of people playing the way they want to play. You like to play trinity i heard, right? But you also said you're not gonna play bless trin tactic. Alright, np. But you will probably cast EV don't you? Or what are you doing instead? Let's say i'm playing with you but i want to get energy solely from energy balls. You destroy my enjoyment with EV. And you possibly destroy my challenge when i wanna feel "heated" when on low hp, trying to heal myself but instead you press 4. Now, would you like me to complain about THAT? You would probably facepalm. But i'm not complaining about the smallest problems in life. I simply get over it. (not to mention the problem that was mentioned isn't an actual problem but whatever).

Now with that said, i agree with this one:

18 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

(It does need a MR increase though)

Yes it needs a MR increase. It's definitely too strong to be a MR5 weapon. It's a weapon that rewards for leading and aiming shots and pays off with lots of damage. But on this level, people see little reason to get any other weapons and some people probably don't want to play any other weapon then. The whole MR system is fked up anyway. I'm still waiting for DE to finally roll over the MR requirements as what they had promised.

Edited April 6, 2016 by IceColdHawk
duh..MR5 not MR4...

[RagingGrizzly]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Yes it needs a MR increase. It's definitely too strong to be a MR4 weapon. It's a weapon that rewards for leading and pays out with lots of damage. But on this level, people see little reason to get any other weapons and some people probably don't want to play any other weapon then. The whole MR system is fked up anyway. I'm still waiting for DE to finally roll over the MR requirements as what they had promised.

Do you even know how long that was ago?

Long...

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, PUR3K1LL3R said:

Do you even know how long that was ago?

Long...

Yes, too long.

[TheBrsrkr]

4 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

Since when was people bringing Tonkors to everything a problem? Might as well say that about the Ogris. 

It is when it's OP. You don't bring a gun to a foam sword fight. With 4 year Olds. 

6 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

.Tonkor shots are very easy to miss, and missing with the tonkor on high level play can be deadly. 

For the last time,  no. No they are not. I have a Tonkor. It has a guide. It has very predictable spread. Missing with ANY THING on a high level is deadly. That isn't particular to the Tonkor. 

9 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

. It's not OP, although it doesn't sound like the damage it can deal is the main problem you have with it (It does need a MR increase though) 

Bows still do more damage than the Tonkor. As do melee weapons with those fancy new mods. That isn't the problem. The problem is that it still has a lot of damage, and doesn't need all that much skill to use, nor is there much risk to it. I'm sure I've said this all before. 

 

13 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

 and saying that it takes the fun out of your game play just sounds (No offense) stupid.

I literally just told you how and why it takes the fun out of gameplay. 

[RagingGrizzly]

17 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It is when it's OP. You don't bring a gun to a foam sword fight. With 4 year Olds. 

Is it only OP when it takes little to no work to get that damage?

Quote

Bows still do more damage than the Tonkor. As do melee weapons with those fancy new mods. That isn't the problem. The problem is that it still has a lot of damage, and doesn't need all that much skill to use, nor is there much risk to it. I'm sure I've said this all before. 

I pretty sure that bows aren't able to deal more damage than the tonkor can, but that's not the point. There are a lot of weapons that are similar to this in terms of damage it can deal in respect to skill, which probably isn't even a thing in this game.

Quote

I literally just told you how and why it takes the fun out of gameplay. 

Well, it looks like we have different definitions of fun.

It takes the fun out of YOUR gameplay, and probably not much others. Don't generalize.

Edited April 7, 2016 by PUR3K1LL3R

[TheBrsrkr]

 

On 4/6/2016 at 7:57 PM, PUR3K1LL3R said:

Is it only OP when it takes little to no work to get that damage?

Balance basically boils down to effort in/effort out. If you have a weapon with decent accuracy, average clip and manageable recoil, you would expect moderate damage from it. That's why assault rifles have so much ammo, battle rifles have such high recoil, sniper rifles are so slow, and why rockets have such tiny clips. If you really look at it all, they don't apply that much more damage than each other, depending on their tier of course. 

A launcher with that kind of damage wouldn't have twice as much ammo as any other launcher, an aim guide  a shorter reload than every other launcher and more damage applied per shot than an entire clip of the others. This one does. 

On 4/6/2016 at 7:57 PM, PUR3K1LL3R said:

I pretty sure that bows aren't able to deal more damage than the tonkor can, but that's not the point. There are a lot of weapons that are similar to this in terms of damage it can deal in respect to skill, which probably isn't even a thing in this game.

Yes, which is why I said damage isn't the only problem here. It's the amount that can be applied here. Remember that a shot isn't just 60k damage, it's 60k damage to everything in range. Only launchers have this advantage, and no other launchers hold a candle to the Tonkor. Even if you do 100k damage per shot with some other gun, it's still 100k damage to one enemy. 

 

On 4/6/2016 at 7:57 PM, PUR3K1LL3R said:

.Well, it looks like we have different definitions of fun.

Not particularly. I'm sure your definition of fun includes doing something. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

44 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

It doesn't matter whether people successfully hit a grenade into a group or it's a soma prime with shred, shredding through all the people. Not to mention it shreds through nullifiers too. And i already said that penta does it better than tonkor, just with the exception that tonkor deals more damage (which really isn't needed until you're into a very very high level) and exchanges self-damage for rocket jump. Or i can just go with chroma and obliterate everything with ignis or atomos. Nobody mentions these. And i can name tons of other stuff that could probably kill your enjoyment of the game. 

You think tonkor is the odd one out that makes this game boring? No. Wanna know what makes this game actually boring for most of us? Absurd grind and the endless repetition. Not a guy getting more kills than someone else.

You probably find it rude from me to say, but i find it an actual helpful advice. Don't get too "mememe" because of people playing the way they want to play. You like to play trinity i heard, right? But you also said you're not gonna play bless trin tactic. Alright, np. But you will probably cast EV don't you? Or what are you doing instead? Let's say i'm playing with you but i want to get energy solely from energy balls. You destroy my enjoyment with EV. And you possibly destroy my challenge when i wanna feel "heated" when on low hp, trying to heal myself but instead you press 4. Now, would you like me to complain about THAT? You would probably facepalm. But i'm not complaining about the smallest problems in life. I simply get over it. (not to mention the problem that was mentioned isn't an actual problem but whatever).

Now with that said, i agree with this one:

Yes it needs a MR increase. It's definitely too strong to be a MR4 weapon. It's a weapon that rewards for leading and aiming shots and pays off with lots of damage. But on this level, people see little reason to get any other weapons and some people probably don't want to play any other weapon then. The whole MR system is fked up anyway. I'm still waiting for DE to finally roll over the MR requirements as what they had promised.

A Soma Prime must be aimed at heads, all heads no matter differing elevations and units, and swept across the area to accumulate those kills. It also needs multiple shots to have any hope of racking up Tonkor level damage. Both of these slow the process of killing in that area.

A Tonkor must be aimed at any part of a single unit in order to instantly deal its maximal damage potential to everything in range of the AOE at once.

So the Penta does 'it' better, except has less reward and more risk? I'm sorry?

Again Warframe synergies blow everything out of proportion. Again I cite my Heavy Cal Ogris and 15x Navigator Ivara. The damage is there, the risks are mitigated, but that doesn't mean the Ogris is on the same level of power as the Tonkor.

Besides, I've already detailed the issues of the Ignis and Atomos, you can't say I, for one, neglect to address them. Damage applied over time. Range limitations. Ammo efficiency. Sacrificing numerous mod slots to achieve peak AOE output. Ignis has damage falloff over distance.

 

The grind would be less boring if it were less unengaging. Imbalances like the Tonkor reduce the engagement of the game by providing a risk-free, greatest-effect path to clearing a mission. I have no need for Nitain Extracts, but I use their alerts as an excuse to roll the Loadout Randomiser and play a mission with something outside my usual comfort zone equipment. It's fun. There's not even a slight hope for RNG to give a useful reward at the end, but it's still more engaging than sitting in T4 Interceptions with a Blind Mirage going to wave 100 to get ducats for the next Baro Ki'Teer appearance.

 

Trinity is probably a poor example with how contentious she already is, but even so. Consider in the EV case that nobody forces you to use that energy. You have it, but you can opt not to use it until you see an energy orb drop and run through it (whether or not it's picked up in the process) if that's your personal challenge.

The healing is more of a valid comparison, but already argued to be too effective, and as a result marginalises the identity of things like Oberons and Night Equinoxes for the healing they offer. It's a bit of an odd devil's advocate to draw as a parallel, and definitely enters into that grey area of trivialising things.. but there's a gameplay element there still. The Trinity has to notice you're being damaged and react to cast, in a normal Blessing scenario, whereas the permanent Blessing build removes that gameplay element in favour of a functionally static immortality with only a minor burden of upkeep in recasting whenever time runs out (as opposed to dynamic factors like being genuinely damaged).

 

At the risk of falling afoul my own argument, I'm going to bring up matchmaking versus soloing in regard to the latter point - It's reasonably expected that if you look to be matchmade with other players, that they will support you (but not marginalise your own efforts). If you wish to maintain your health with no support from allies, that is a goal that directly benefits from going it solo. Conversely, a Trinity who wants to support a team cannot go solo and acheive the goal they seek.

I'm aware that sounds hypocritical, but the difference lies in the nuance between "I want to survive on my own terms, specifically not aided by others" and "I want to fight enemies and contribute to the team's success".

There's a certain undeniable subjectivity that leaves these grey areas when we consider influences players can have on each other, but the decision is helped along by inverting the equation.

In the Trinity healing example, only one of the two sides of the equation can be suggested to solo and still achieve their goal. Compare it to the Tonkor example, where both sides can equally opt to solo to solve the clash between influences and goals. This suggests that it is more sensible to allow a Trinity to keep on doing her job and supporting teams than it is to allow a Tonkor to marginalise player contribution in the same way a Trinity stops someone surviving on only their own efforts.

 

With the Tonkor's grossly imbalanced risk/reward, an MR restriction of no less than 20, possibly higher (yes, higher than we can even access right now) would be the bare minimum to justify the power creep involved. But that wouldn't fix the problem, because of the Grandfather clause. Rebalancing it to accommodate other player preferences is still the most effective choice.

Edited April 7, 2016 by EDYinnit

[IceColdHawk]

43 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

A Soma Prime must be aimed at heads, all heads no matter differing elevations and units, and swept across the area to accumulate those kills. It also needs multiple shots to have any hope of racking up Tonkor level damage. Both of these slow the process of killing in that area.

No you don't have to aim at heads. Only if you need more damage. Even then, a damage buff from anyone can fix it again. Not to mention the tonkor has limited range while you can snipe with the soma.

43 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

A Tonkor must be aimed at any part of a single unit in order to instantly deal its maximal damage potential to everything in range of the AOE at once.

I agree with you. The tonkor must be successfully aimed and also coordinate the flight time to hit moving enemies, in order to deal it's damage.

43 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

The grind would be less boring if it were less unengaging. Imbalances like the Tonkor reduce the engagement of the game by providing a risk-free, greatest-effect path to clearing a mission. I have no need for Nitain Extracts, but I use their alerts as an excuse to roll the Loadout Randomiser and play a mission with something outside my usual comfort zone equipment. It's fun. There's not even a slight hope for RNG to give a useful reward at the end, but it's still more engaging than sitting in T4 Interceptions with a Blind Mirage going to wave 100 to get ducats for the next Baro Ki'Teer appearance.

Only if you decide to play with the tonkor and think it's too easy. Some people actually don't mind not being able to detonate the nade on press but they do like the endgame. You can always choose to pick other weapons for you to not let the game be too easy. And actually grind is boring because of the repetition as mentioned before. Wanna know what was a chore? Getting spira p blades. Playing t3 mdef all summer long. I've seen the enemies 10000000 of times, the map also the same amount of times. Then, standing there to defend it like always and kill peeps. The same game as always. Booooooring. Of course as a veteran you can't get the same enjoyment as other people who are new to the game. Now some people find the tonkor fun also because of it's heavy boom and flinging enemies away. That gives them a specific satisfaction at least when playing these missions.

43 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

The healing is more of a valid comparison, but already argued to be too effective, and as a result marginalises the identity of things like Oberons and Night Equinoxes for the healing they offer. It's a bit of an odd devil's advocate to draw as a parallel, and definitely enters into that grey area of trivialising things.. but there's a gameplay element there still. The Trinity has to notice you're being damaged and react to cast, in a normal Blessing scenario, whereas the permanent Blessing build removes that gameplay element in favour of a functionally static immortality with only a minor burden of upkeep in recasting whenever time runs out (as opposed to dynamic factors like being genuinely damaged).

Don't go that derp way like other people seem to do. Oberon and Equinox being useless because of trin having the best heal? Nonsense. Trinity is a complete support frame lacking CC and damage. She should excel in their own special area compared too all-rounders. Oberon and Equinox ain't complete support frames. They deal damage and cc. People should keep that in mind before hacking on frames, seriously.

While i understand blessing trins can completely negate your challenge, it can also be fun at times. For me at least, i played bless trin at times. Anyway, you should also keep in mind that the trin always has to keep an eye on the counter and react right on time. Also not allowed to touch the glorious bubbles of doom. Otherwise your team bites the bullet because of thinking they are immortal. Bless trin actually works harder than most other people. And i liked to play bless trin in raids because i had something to do at least. Now taking away the ability to let trin's self-damage count for the blessing, let me tell you that noone's gonna play trinity ever again (aside from ev'ing maybe which isn't much fun).

43 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

With the Tonkor's grossly imbalanced risk/reward, an MR restriction of no less than 20, possibly higher (yes, higher than we can even access right now) would be the bare minimum to justify the power creep involved. But that wouldn't fix the problem, because of the Grandfather clause. Rebalancing it to accommodate other player preferences is still the most effective choice.

"Grandfather clause"? You mean the vets, right? I'd be glad to get my hands any time on a strong weapon. But if you intend to think that vets get no progression feeling out of it, well, vets gonna be vets. A game doesn't last forever to be "fun".

 

So all it goes down is to own fun preferences. I for one got some friends that love the tonkor while i don't really love it. I still always manage to do a job and manage to have fun. So saying tonkor is taking away the fun of gameplay is complete nonsense. Maybe it does for you for any reason. But it definitely does not for many others. Not to forget that you will always get problems with players when bothering with such a small "problem" like this. "Friends only" exists. If you insist to play public, don't expect that people are always playing the way you want. You can nerf tonkor all to hell, damn you can remove it from the game. People still gonna take another weapon (maybe penta is the new tonkor then?) and continue screwing you up (leading to more nerf threads). Or even TROLL you! It WON'T help you. Once again, use recruiting, play solo or play with friends. You're gonna achieve nothing for nerfing the tonkor. You'll only achieve a better progression by giving it a higher MR requirement.

Now with that said, let the community decide what is fun and what not. Not your 2 only opinions. Opinions vs Opinions. And the winner should be the opinion of the majority. Simple as that. Otherwise you gonna depress the majority and that will lead to maximum salt, bad reviews and/or leaving the game. I dare to say that the Devs definitely don't want this situation. And we, the community don't want this either.

Peace.

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[TheLexiConArtist]

25 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

No you don't have to aim at heads. Only if you need more damage. Even then, a damage buff from anyone can fix it again. Not to mention the tonkor has limited range while you can snipe with the soma.

I agree with you. The tonkor must be successfully aimed and also coordinate the flight time to hit moving enemies, in order to deal it's damage.

Only if you decide to play with the tonkor and think it's too easy. Some people actually don't mind not being able to detonate the nade on press but they do like the endgame. You can always choose to pick other weapons for you to not let the game be too easy. And actually grind is boring because of the repetition as mentioned before. Wanna know what was a chore? Getting spira p blades. Playing t3 mdef all summer long. I've seen the enemies 10000000 of times, the map also the same amount of times. Then, standing there to defend it like always and kill peeps. The same game as always. Booooooring. Of course as a veteran you can't get the same enjoyment as other people who are new to the game. Now some people find the tonkor fun also because of it's heavy boom and flinging enemies away. That gives them a specific satisfaction at least when playing these missions.

Don't go that derp way like other people seem to do. Oberon and Equinox being useless because of trin having the best heal? Nonsense. Trinity is a complete support frame lacking CC and damage. She should excel in their own special area compared too all-rounders. Oberon and Equinox ain't complete support frames. They deal damage and cc. People should keep that in mind before hacking on frames, seriously.

While i understand blessing trins can completely negate your challenge, it can also be fun at times. For me at least, i played bless trin at times. Anyway, you should also keep in mind that the trin always has to keep an eye on the counter and react right on time. Also not allowed to touch the glorious bubbles of doom. Otherwise your team bites the bullet because of thinking they are immortal. Bless trin actually works harder than most other people. And i liked to play bless trin in raids because i had something to do at least. Now taking away the ability to let trin's self-damage count for the blessing, let me tell you that noone's gonna play trinity ever again (aside from ev'ing maybe which isn't much fun).

"Grandfather clause"? You mean the vets, right? I'd be glad to get my hands any time on a strong weapon. But if you intend to think that vets get no progression feeling out of it, well, vets gonna be vets. A game doesn't last forever to be "fun".

 

So all it goes down is to own fun preferences. I for one got some friends that love the tonkor while i don't really love it. I still always manage to do a job and manage to have fun. So saying tonkor is taking away the fun of gameplay is complete nonsense. Maybe it does for you for any reason. But it definitely does not for many others. Not to forget that you will always get problems with players when bothering with such a small "problem" like this. "Friends only" exists. If you insist to play public, don't expect that people are always playing the way you want. You can nerf tonkor all to hell, damn you can remove it from the game. People still gonna take another weapon (maybe penta is the new tonkor then?) and continue screwing you up (leading to more nerf threads). Or even TROLL you! It WON'T help you. Once again, use recruiting, play solo or play with friends. You're gonna achieve nothing for nerfing the tonkor. You'll only achieve a better progression by giving it a higher MR requirement.

Now with that said, let the community decide what is fun and what not. Not your 2 only opinions. Opinions vs Opinions. And the winner should be the opinion of the majority. Simple as that. Otherwise you gonna depress the majority and that will lead to maximum salt, bad reviews and/or leaving the game. I dare to say that the Devs definitely don't want this situation. And we, the community don't want this either.

Peace.

 

Clarification: To achieve optimal output any weapon without the 'explosion' mechanic has to aim for heads, whereas weapons with explosions get this peak output for free, and not all of which have to paritcularly aim at all.

Certainly, to match the damage and AOE of a Tonkor, the Soma would take much longer (regardless of overkill, treat as functionally infinite health targets). That upper damage limit can quite easily be reduced a little to assuage any limitations of the Tonkor (sacrificing a slot to Terminal Velocity, for example), giving a still-instantaneous, still-enormous damage, but with far less limitation on the range. Not that anything stops a Tonkor user from Parkouring themselves at 100m/s towards the offending longer-distance group and greeting them with a grenade, with no personal risk.

 

The Tonkor 'must be aimed and compensated for flight time', perhaps, but again regardless of floor-detonating grenades; Adhesive Blast another option to provide Ogris-like ability to aim for the terrain around the target rather than direct impact.

However, the exact same holds true for any projectile, and most of these have the additional burden of trying to second-guess the unit's facing, as they need to actually hit that temperamental and much smaller hitbox of the head. The Lanka or Bows have very limited multi-targeting capability (punch-through creates a thin linear area of effect at best), and although they differ in projectile speed and arcing, the actual target they're looking to hit is much smaller. Plus, they actually don't function on a miss whatsoever.

 

I do feel you on the Spira blades, Mobile Defenses are the least engaging missions right now and by far my least favourite as a result. Opinions vary, so I won't presume that to solely be the cause of the anecdotal example of dullness in particular, but it is highly likely to be a factor to some extent. Mobile Defense has the singular reward and relative unthreatening spawns of a non-endless mission, but enforces much more time spent and overall presents a more static, waiting game compared to the other Void non-endless missions.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Trinity's healing obsoletes the entire kits of those alternatives, but for the purpose of bringing a source of healing, they are just in such different leagues that in the context of that function, there's no decision. It's what I've seen directly drawn as the reasoning in threads, rather than my personal argument.

For Trinity's two meta builds right now, they both provide a similar consistent, gameplay-agnostic survivability aspect and benefit. Assuming the EV Trinity has the augment, simply constantly tagging enemies with EV provides a consistent energy and shield inflow. Bless Trinity doesn't really care for what's happening in the mission, as long as she performs the intermittent upkeep of refreshing the perfect Bless, which involves nothing but that player (not even an enemy), the effect persists, nullification notwithstanding. That's why they can be considered degenerate even in terms of a purely supportive Warframe.

But despite that, as I've said, I retired my own Trinity because the power and control of players has crept up with your Blind Mirages and Tonkors and all similar but less egregious cases, to where the only challenge is to give us a three-pronged attack: overlevelled and consequently overscaled enemies, additional arbitrary restrictions or enemy enhancements, and typically a mission-specific difficulty obstruction; whether that last is the unscaled Excavators, Hijack nullification bubbles, Bosses with ten times as many supportive normal units or outright broken elements from the scaling issues... There's no room for that reactionary support. It has to be proactive, and finding these consistent buffs and survival builds is a lot less risky than second-guessing incoming damage to land a Blessing heal in the quarter-second of 'damaged' that lies between full health and dead.

The problems have added up, creeping in under the proverbial radar, but the first step to solving these problems is to overcome the inertia of making any individual change as part of the whole.

 

Grandfather clause: The compensation by which restrictions later imposed are not retroactively applied to situations that have already met previous requirements, but would not meet the new restrictions.

Or, in short, moving the MR5 Tonkor to MR20 would still leave all those MR5 to MR19 people who already own the Tonkor with the ability to use it at its current unhealthy and unjustified power level.

 

In terms of that entire last section, I just want to point out again that 'argument by popularity' is a fallacy and invalid. If you found a bug that let you get 3 rewards for your MD instead of 1, then many people would pick up on it in hopes of those sweet, sweet Spira blades... but regardless that popularity, the bug would be fixed. Just because this is a weapon knowingly released doesn't mean it wasn't poorly thought through in its balance and deserves reining in, despite popularity.. and I would argue, that popularity in itself proves the point of imbalance.

[IceColdHawk]

49 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Clarification: To achieve optimal output any weapon without the 'explosion' mechanic has to aim for heads, whereas weapons with explosions get this peak output for free, and not all of which have to paritcularly aim at all.

Certainly, to match the damage and AOE of a Tonkor, the Soma would take much longer (regardless of overkill, treat as functionally infinite health targets). That upper damage limit can quite easily be reduced a little to assuage any limitations of the Tonkor (sacrificing a slot to Terminal Velocity, for example), giving a still-instantaneous, still-enormous damage, but with far less limitation on the range. Not that anything stops a Tonkor user from Parkouring themselves at 100m/s towards the offending longer-distance group and greeting them with a grenade, with no personal risk.

I didn't compare soma to tonkor in terms of strength. I just mentioned the soma as one of the hundred possibilities that can destroy your enjoyment of the game. Because the problem seems to be "players won't let me get kills". And yes, it is possible with a soma.

49 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

If you found a bug that let you get 3 rewards for your MD instead of 1, then many people would pick up on it in hopes of those sweet, sweet Spira blades... but regardless that popularity, the bug would be fixed. Just because this is a weapon knowingly released doesn't mean it wasn't poorly thought through in its balance and deserves reining in, despite popularity.. and I would argue, that popularity in itself proves the point of imbalance.

First of all: Balance is a myth. You will never get a complete "balanced" game. You shouldn't try to bend things in hope that the game somehow gets balanced. And by things i mean those that don't need bending. Now prism and soundquake is another story....but this is not our topic!

Then i'd also like to point out that you should NEVER compare bugs to things that got released as planned. Bugs are unintended and NEED to get fixed so the game is playable and also to prevent exploits. Now the tonkor is here for a year. It would already have been fixed loong ago when it would be unintended. Also, people ENJOY it. (not everyone, but a lot)

49 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

In terms of that entire last section, I just want to point out again that 'argument by popularity' is a fallacy and invalid. 

That says you. I say otherwise. This isn't politics. This is a game. The main balancing factors are "Fun" (players) and "Money Profit" (developers). As long as those can be kept up, the game will stay up! Now in a PvP for example, LoL, when one champ is stronger than everyone, nobody likes to fight against something that overpowers them while they are not allowed to pick them anymore. That means less fun. But when people enjoy things in warframe, it is a success. Not to mention that people are more willingly to spend money on it to skip it maybe. It's a win-win situation. Devs get money, players get good stuff. Now if we buff a frame that is lackluster, more people will not only have fun, but also would like to spend money on it! Maybe even better when it comes with a new deluxe skin.

 

Edit: Final Opinion: - Increase Tonkor's MR.

                               - Perhaps add self damage while moving the rocket jump to alt fire.

                               - Problem solved.

Edited April 7, 2016 by IceColdHawk
added more words at the end. + final opinion

[BrokenMirror]

On 4/3/2016 at 4:44 AM, EDYinnit said:

• Amprex: Terrible ammo economy / low base damage. Harshly limited range. AOE is weaker than main fire. 2.7 reload time (ohno, even longer than that Tonkor 2 second!) Has to aim for heads, rather than just 'this end towards enemy'. Damage is dealt over time.
• (S) Simulor: No arguments here, the SySim is exactly the no-aim, no-risk, all-reward as the Tonkor. It even uses Rifle Ammo, making its economy even better. At least Magnetic is a less effective damage type on most things, though. Doesn't the base Simulor also have lower AOE and/or projectile range to work with?
• Torid: Enemies have to stand in place for AOE, damage is dealt over time. 3 second reload time. Building up dense clouds is a risky business because enemies can just run right on through, and you're relying on the rarest ammo pickups to regain the ability to put more down.
• Atomos: Basically a secondary Amprex with a different base damage type. Somewhat more manageable ammo economy through its lower firerate/higher damage base, but doesn't enjoy supercrits like an Amprex, limiting the overall output. No cheap punchthrough and requiring +range to really be effective limits the AOE.Damage dealt over time.
• Hikou Prime: non-mod-scaling AOE damage except for firerate. At high fire rate, can be very deadly to self. Try putting Lethal Torrent, Barrel Diffusion, CE and Gunslinger on a regular Hikou and aim down, you'll kill yourself. This non-scaling AOE damage deals 70 self-damage for an output of 250. More selfdamage than the Tonkor, less output, not moddable. I've literally never seen someone seriously using this.
• Ignis: You didn't mention it in the quoted text, but just for completion's sake: Ammo economy issues in higher level content, damage falloff at range, must sacrifice slot for proper AOE (Firestorm), possibly also another one for additional range, limiting actual damage output. Damage is dealt over time.

Irorone's post already did a really good job addressing your entire post.

But I want to address your response to me.

Have you ever used the Amprex? Did you know amprex chains ALWAYS get headshots? Much like the tonkor always procs headshots? Did you know that? No? Because you havn't used the weapon since argon scope came out?

Oh your simulor response is. HUR DUR NO RISK NO REWARD. Yet you fail to mention that the issues with the simulor are what you used against the amprex. Did you know the simulor has MUCH less range then the amprex. MUCH LESS RANGE ALMOST 15 METERS LESS INFACT. And the simulor doesn't fire nuclear bursts like the tonkor, you have to shoot it several times to see effect vs higher level enemies.

Torid, you've never used this weapon before, have you? You stick it TO THEM. Like you have to do with the Tonkor. YOU NEED TO HIT THEM with both the Torid and the Tonkor, The torids damage rivals the tonkor, the torids statis is better then the tonkor. The Torid has the same ammo economy as the tonkor. If you run out of Torid Ammo, go back to using a Scavenger Aura with your Vectis. Because its literally like running out of vectis ammo. You have to Hur dur 0% accuracy lick a wall with the torid to not stay in the positive for ammo.

But the atomos is still an instant reward fire and forget weapon, that goes in your secondary slot, Due to Pistol mods being infinitly better then primary mods, this weapon closely competes with the amprex even with the amprex crits. And its Damage type of Fire is quite effective vs Infested. Not to mention that Pistol ammo might actually be more common then rifle ammo, if not then its about the same.

Hikou Prime, I don't even. as Irorone said, this weapon is used in many sustain comps. This weapons damage is insane, simply put. With a static damage output, this weapon runs DPS circles around the Kulstar. And Seriously, if you have accidentally killed yourself from full shields with this weapon, you should quit video gaming. This weapon with full firerate actually takes about 1-1.5s of you firing it at yourself to actually kill you, assuming your an unranked frame. Reguardless, Can you accidentally kill yourself with a Kulstar? YES Can you accidentally kill yourself with Hikou, Yes, but its about as likley of killing yourself with a Tonkor.

I dont think you've used the ignis either. This weapon's damage is insane, and it carries Low to mid level missions with abo@#&*ly no effort thanks to base Punch through, ludicrous range, and inbuilt multishot.

 

Now, have you actually concidered what you want? You want to remove the tonkor from the game. You want to nerf every stat, simultaneously. This is insane. Completely unreasonable. What weapons do you like? I wanna nerf those weapons, I don't care if they're good or not. LETS JUST NERF EVERYTHING. IT ALL KILLS ENEMIES. JUST NERF IT ALL. NERF EVERY WARFRAME. PEOPLE NOT USING OP WEAPONS RUIN MY FUN, NERF BALANCED AND UP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING OP WEAPONS RUIN MY GAME, NERF OP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING WEAPONS BETTER THEN MY MK1 BRATON RUIN MY GAME, NERF ALL BALANCED AND OP WEAPONS. PEOPLE USING WARFRAMES RUINS MY GAMEPLAY, NERF ALL WARFRAMES, PEOPLE USING CHAT RUIN MY GAME, NERF COMMUNICATION, PEOPLE RAGING ON THE FORUMS RUINS MY GAME, REMOVE THE FORUMS.

TL:DR

PEOPLE RUIN MY GAME, MAKE WARFRAME SINGLE PLAYER.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I didn't compare soma to tonkor in terms of strength. I just mentioned the soma as one of the hundred possibilities that can destroy your enjoyment of the game. Because the problem seems to be "players won't let me get kills". And yes, it is possible with a soma.

First of all: Balance is a myth. You will never get a complete "balanced" game. You shouldn't try to bend things in hope that the game somehow gets balanced. And by things i mean those that don't need bending. Now prism and soundquake is another story....but this is not our topic!

Then i'd also like to point out that you should NEVER compare bugs to things that got released as planned. Bugs are unintended and NEED to get fixed so the game is playable and also to prevent exploits. Now the tonkor is here for a year. It would already have been fixed loong ago when it would be unintended. Also, people ENJOY it. (not everyone, but a lot)

That says you. I say otherwise. This isn't politics. This is a game. The main balancing factors are "Fun" (players) and "Money Profit" (developers). As long as those can be kept up, the game will stay up! Now in a PvP for example, LoL, when one champ is stronger than everyone, nobody likes to fight against something that overpowers them while they are not allowed to pick them anymore. That means less fun. But when people enjoy things in warframe, it is a success. Not to mention that people are more willingly to spend money on it to skip it maybe. It's a win-win situation. Devs get money, players get good stuff. Now if we buff a frame that is lackluster, more people will not only have fun, but also would like to spend money on it! Maybe even better when it comes with a new deluxe skin.

The strength is still relevant to compare by virtue of the Ember Argument: Functionally permanent World On Fire can quite handily trivialise a portion of the starmap, but it heavily falls off later to the point of near irrelevance (for damage) when built this way. Similarly, if the Soma can do what the Tonkor does, but stops accomplishing this with the same ease far sooner (i.e. where Soma is no longer overkilling within a shot, two shots, a handful of shots, but Tonkors continue to overkill every shot), then the total capacity to impact is lessened.

We single the Tonkor out mainly because it continues to perform this marginalisation from the tower 2 missions I still see people bring it to (Speaking of MD3, I had two Tonkors in one random group I joined earlier today. Jesus wept.) all the way up to Sorties, proving it to be more egregiously imbalanced than its contenders.

 

Balance isn't a myth but an ideal; there is a threshold of tolerance and we opine that the Tonkor has not only crossed it, but drawn a new threshold beyond that and crossed that one as well for good measure. For the good of the hundreds of weapons that cannot even imagine such power with such sparse drawbacks as the Tonkor has, we bring down the outlier(s). As for why buffing those hundreds instead is a bad idea... Occam's Razor is one reason among several. Power creep is another thread entirely over in General.

 

You mention League of Legends, I mention the fact that after years of playing (in fact, it's what drove me to temporarily stop playing Warframe), problems in that exact nature drove me out. Imbalance and power creep. It's no secret among anyone but the blindly apologist that new champions are, almost to a fault, horrendously overpowered on release, and even after being nerfed to levels of being 'reasonable', have so many tools - the power in this case being the luxury of options, utility and mobility as much as it is statistical strength - that they simply provide a completely unreasonable function to the player.

Again, "don't like it, don't use it" came into argument there - but because you don't want to use it and don't want to be affected by the negativity, you have to ban it instead. Those bans are limited, nor does the player always get to choose the bans. So whether differing opinions or sheer outnumbering of imbalance to the limitations on removing that imbalance, sooner or later you're just stuck fighting odds that are stacked against you. Which, especially but not exclusively in a competitive scenario, is just going to lead to player dissatisfaction.

 

So in terms of Warframe, what happens when people get sick enough of the imbalance that they start leaving because the developers refuse to address it, just because some proportion of people like it or don't mind? As the saying goes, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Dramatic as that is, the sentiment stands. You have no idea what proportion of anti-nerf people would outright quit the game because the most imbalanced weapon gets tweaked. You have no idea what proportion of people might quit because it remains.

I'd guess the majority of Timmy, Power Gamer players who "like the Tonkor" (read: it's the most imbalanced weapon so it's what I use) would briefly complain about having stuffed forma on something that is 'ruined' in their typical doomsaying nature because it got balanced, but rather than quit, they'd just move onto the next best thing.

 

Players who already own the most imbalanced, best weapon in the game have little incentive to spend platinum on other weapons. All these new weapon releases? Well, it's not going to compete with my Tonkor in the slightest, so I'll just grab the BP and build it whenever I feel like getting the mastery. How's that for business sense?

[IceColdHawk]

34 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Players who already own the most imbalanced, best weapon in the game have little incentive to spend platinum on other weapons. All these new weapon releases? Well, it's not going to compete with my Tonkor in the slightest, so I'll just grab the BP and build it whenever I feel like getting the mastery. How's that for business sense?

The Dex Sybaris was not a sale but a good example of a viable new gun. I enjoyed it, so did many other. Don't assume just because tonkor exists, noone is gonna bother with anything else.

34 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

So in terms of Warframe, what happens when people get sick enough of the imbalance that they start leaving because the developers refuse to address it, just because some proportion of people like it or don't mind? As the saying goes, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Dramatic as that is, the sentiment stands. You have no idea what proportion of anti-nerf people would outright quit the game because the most imbalanced weapon gets tweaked. You have no idea what proportion of people might quit because it remains.

Just in case you thought i would be one. I'm not anti-nerf. More like anti-kneejerk. And some pages ago i said i would be neutral. I'm not agreeing the tonkor to be nerfed in terms of damage but i'm agreeing to fix it in order of consistency. If you haven't read it yet, i edited it in my last post and quoting it here right now:

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

Edit: Final Opinion: - Increase Tonkor's MR.

                               - Perhaps add self damage while moving the rocket jump to alt fire.

                               - Problem solved.

Will keep up fun and the usability of the weapon while making it a lot less unfair. About the grandfather's clause, well, you can block it for people under the MR. This game is still a beta, people should prepare for the worst at any given time. Now i'm done discussing (and i hope you will too) because it actually leads to nothing rather than throwing a wall of text after another one. (not to mention that damage 3.0 is already cooking and i can smell it for u19...)

With that in regards,

Peace.

Quick edit:

45 minutes ago, BrokenMirror said:

-snip-

Spoiler

While i can see you being mad, you should calm down in your posts or otherwise you won't get far. Just a tip.

Peace²

Edited April 7, 2016 by IceColdHawk