Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

One weapon with this fire power need a equal penalty, granade launchers isnt  made it for kindergarten ,simple

Edited April 14, 2016 by (PS4)xKAIOWAx

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

My comment was based on your statement of the Tonkor comprising almost entirely of elemental damage, which unlike the Aprex it clearly isn't. For the remainder, you only reaffirmed that fire rate made the biggest difference with Lephantis.

 

Already wrote and shown earlier that lower-end fodder can be killed faster by other means as well. Therefore, in the bigger picture the Tonkor isn't the game breaker it's claimed to be here.

DPS is a product of damage per shot and fire rate. The Amprex has more fire rate than a MK-1 Braton (2⅔ times the fire rate, in fact) but this rate of fire fails to make sufficient difference in the presence of other factors. Ignoring all those other factors makes this counterargument a strawman.

The Tonkor's damage is comprised of one (1) projectile impact and a radius (∞ targets) of blast damage. The puncture is 75*1. The blast is 325*∞. Yes, it's almost entirely elemental damage. But let's score in your new goalposts as well:

On Lephantis the difference is 23% physical to 77% elemental (already a large proportion). On other single targets the ratios increase in the elemental's favour due to the automatic headshots and headcrits which the projectile is very unlikely to enjoy.

Contrasting to the 100% physical base of the Soma Prime, which would require roughly 340% added Elemental damage from mods to match this basic ratio on the Tonkor damage, very unlikely after other essential mods such as Multishot, Serration and Crit. Elemental mods applied to the Tonkor, too, would push the base ratio up even farther out of reach.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

16 hours ago, Icy_Ymir said:

Well, by your own logic, you also need to avoid telling me what i need to avoid, "because it's rude".

Calling someone's mother a prostitute is rude. Telling someone what they should do is not, however.

It NEEDS a nerf, just to bring some variety to the "top tier weaponry". Because now it looks like "Synoid Simulor Mirage > Tonkor > Everything else". This is just stupid.

in the context of this forum, telling other players how to play there game is rude as well as arrogant.  I would be more than pleased to tell you my opinion of your post, but I'm constrained by the same forum rules you are. 

What is stupid is to nerf a weapon that the majority of the player base enjoys.  Massive nerfs to popular weapons is what gives a game a bad rep and causes players to avoid buying good weapons, assuming that they'll be nerfed. 

your logic runs; I don't enjoy these weapons, so no one should be able to play them. 

If you don't like the weapons, don't play them.  But, again, respect other players enough to allow them to make their own choices. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 4/13/2016 at 1:50 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

He says, while using a weapon that actively prevents this outcome by rendering other preferences and styles obsolete. 

 

your style should be what you enjoy...  if you don't enjoy the weapon, don't use it.  but it is arrogant as well as presumptuous to speak for the massive numbers of players who enjoy the weapon by demanding a nerf.  

Under your logic, if I don't enjoy grapes, grapes should be removed from stores because they take up valuable shelf space that could contain things that I enjoy. and all those people who enjoy grapes? they're just no skill hacks who don't know that grapes are a symptom of their lack of skill. 

I repeat, the ONLY thing that should be nerfed here is the arrogance of players who demand that a weapon is nerfed when a vast number of other players enjoy that weapon as it is.

 

[cx-dave]

35 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

DPS is a product of damage per shot and fire rate. The Amprex has more fire rate than a MK-1 Braton (2⅔ times the fire rate, in fact) but this rate of fire fails to make sufficient difference in the presence of other factors. Ignoring all those other factors makes this counterargument a strawman.

The Tonkor's damage is comprised of one (1) projectile impact and a radius (∞ targets) of blast damage. The puncture is 75*1. The blast is 325*∞. Yes, it's almost entirely elemental damage. But let's score in your new goalposts as well:

On Lephantis the difference is 23% physical to 77% elemental (already a large proportion). On other single targets the ratios increase in the elemental's favour due to the automatic headshots and headcrits which the projectile is very unlikely to enjoy.

Contrasting to the 100% physical base of the Soma Prime, which would require roughly 340% added Elemental damage from mods to match this basic ratio on the Tonkor damage, very unlikely after other essential mods such as Multishot, Serration and Crit. Elemental mods applied to the Tonkor, too, would push the base ratio up even farther out of reach.

Yet the in-game individual crit numbers from the Tonkor were higher than the Soma P...but you couldn't have known that cause you'd rather spend your time playing with a calculator.

[TheLexiConArtist]

31 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

 

Argument by popularity is a logical fallacy, so no, you can't counter their arguments on a logical basis with that one. We've been over this.

However, let me pick out something specific here.

32 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Under your logic, if I don't enjoy grapes, grapes should be removed from stores because they take up valuable shelf space that could contain things that I enjoy. and all those people who enjoy grapes? they're just no skill hacks who don't know that grapes are a symptom of their lack of skill.

Let's fix this analogy a bit:

If I don't enjoy peanuts, say I have an allergy and therefore experience a directly negative effect from being exposed to them, I should be able to instruct a host, providing food for me and my group to share, to not use peanut in the recipe because of the negative result, even though other people enjoy them.

DE is our host, and the power imbalanced Tonkor is our allegorical peanut to which we might have a negative experience, individually to the rest of the group.

 

5 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Yet the in-game individual crit numbers from the Tonkor were higher than the Soma P...but you couldn't have known that cause you'd rather spend your time playing with a calculator.

52 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

DPS is a product of damage per shot and fire rate.

52 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

DPS is a product of damage per shot and fire rate.

Not sure if trolling or actually just stupid. Individual numbers are higher but the firerate averaged it down to a lesser degree? Wow, it's almost like the Tonkor's numbers would have been much higher still, had elemental resistance not factored in.

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, cx-dave said:

For instance with yesterday's Sorties, the Soma Prime compared to Tonkor, clearly out damaged Lephantis. Not much missing going on there either and I tested it with maxed Primed Fast Hands for a 1.4s reload time. The right tool for the job trumps whatever Tonkor OP argument.

You're right! The Soma Prime, a crit based physical high fire rate machine gun, does better damage to a single enemy with elemental resistances than a launcher that mainly does elemental damage that fires once a second! Who would have guessed? I guess that makes my entire argument moot, right? It's not like, say,  90% of the entire game is spent shooting at hordes, the specific situation where the Tonkor excels. This one situation where you have to fight one thing instead of several things at once makes the Tonkor completely balanced. 

What are you even trying to say here? You cheery picked one mission type (assassination) where the Tonkor doesn't completely overpower the objective, of about 5 game modes where this is actually possible (spy, some exterminates, Deception)  and you somehow extrapolate that to be applicable to everything all the time, even though for most of the game you find yourself fighting a group of enemies. This is the worst strawman ever. 

[Vaskadar]

If they fix radial headshot damage, then the Tonkor won't be nearly as strong as it is right now, but that change will also warrant rebalancing other launchers to be up to par.

Take the Ogris for example. Do you see people using it?

 

I sure don't. Then again, I've hardly played in a long while.

[Poolboy]

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You're right! The Soma Prime, a crit based physical high fire rate machine gun, does better damage to a single enemy with elemental resistances than a launcher that mainly does elemental damage that fires once a second! Who would have guessed? I guess that makes my entire argument moot, right? It's not like, say,  90% of the entire game is spent shooting at hordes, the specific situation where the Tonkor excels. This one situation where you have to fight one thing instead of several things at once makes the Tonkor completely balanced. 

What are you even trying to say here? You cheery picked one mission type (assassination) where the Tonkor doesn't completely overpower the objective, of about 5 game modes where this is actually possible (spy, some exterminates, Deception)  and you somehow extrapolate that to be applicable to everything all the time, even though for most of the game you find yourself fighting a group of enemies. This is the worst strawman ever. 

You have literally no idea what strawman means

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Vaskadar said:

If they fix radial headshot damage, then the Tonkor won't be nearly as strong as it is right now, but that change will also warrant rebalancing other launchers to be up to par.

Take the Ogris for example. Do you see people using it?

 

I sure don't. Then again, I've hardly played in a long while.

The Ogris has far more issues than its damage value. A poor AOE radius, incompatibility with Heavy Caliber (compared to Tonkor/Penta at least) and an atrocious 0.4 rockets per second bring it down below all the alternatives for general use.

 

Agreed with the autoheadshot issue, as I've said before. The Tonkor is still the best on base stats, but autoheadcrits take that basic superiority and magnify it beyond all hope of comparing, making it the best reward as well as the separate issue of having the least risk of all ordnance.

Literally a single Concealed Explosive proc deals more self damage (70) with an outgoing of 250 flat blast damage than the Tonkor does with an outgoing of tens of thousands of damage (still only 50 self damage). There is no valid argument to claim this is balanced in any way, despite thirty pages of trying; it was a poorly thought out vehicle to provide the now-obsolete 'grenade jump' mechanic which would better fit on a relatively unrewarding alt-fire.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Poolboy said:

You have literally no idea what strawman means

You literally had nothing to say about the topic besides I don't know what a strawman means. 

[Magneu]

7 hours ago, Poolboy said:

Melee is pressing E. It's not any more engaging than Tonkor. The only difference between the two is that Tonkor can kill more, and faster. Hell even the Braton P could do that in the hands of someone who knew what they were doing. You're just salty your playstyle isn't the optimal.

Cool, not addressing the argument again. Personally, I'd argue that linking combos on stances like Blind Justice and Final Harbinger is far more engaging that launching a single grenade and watching an army die. Not salty, just concerned about future game balance (it's always entertaining to rez Tonkor users who don't know how to do anything but run headfirst into fire while I soak up bullets with not a care in the world).

My gameplay style is irrelevant to my opinion on the Tonkor. What is relevant is the relative power of any other weapon/strategy to said Tonkor.

[Magneu]

4 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Already wrote and shown earlier that lower-end fodder can be killed faster by other means as well. Therefore, in the bigger picture the Tonkor isn't the game breaker it's claimed to be here.

 

I refer to my statement about high-end cars. Nobody measures the specifications on a vehicle on it's bare minimum; "Our car produces at least 50 horsepower!". A vehicle/method/weapon is measured on its top end potential, i.e., "Our car produces 600bhp, corners better than anything else, and goes 0-60 in less than three seconds. You only truly test something at its highest possible output; at the highest end of (balanced) gameplay, the Tonkor is miles ahead of anything else.

Arguing that it isn't effective at lower levels is also fallacious; it's just as effective, except its massive overflow damage isn't needed. At anything less than sortie levels, a well modded Soma Prime takes down fodder in 1-3 headshots, and heavies (with appropriate element) with scarcely more. Damage based abilities still kill at that point, indicative of how relatively fragile enemies are to our DPS. When levels climb, however, the massive overflow damage of the Tonkor comes into play; normally, this wouldn't be a problem with some weapons. Snipers can OHKO well into level 130 (if you're a good shot), but they have no CQC capability, and are single target, with slow fire rates and small clips relative to reload time. A Tonkor matches or exceeds their DPS, then applies it in an AOE that has no self-risk, nullifies its own magazine size (if you can't wipe the squad in front of you with two grenades before reloading, maybe learn to aim; you can even slot Primed Fast Hands for a 1.4 second reload and still massively out-damage the next best weapon), and has a faster base reload than any other launcher/many other primaries, especially with no charge time.

If players can defeat all enemies up to "x" level, that could be considered a level of balance, if a large amount of weapons/strategies can reach that point. The problem is, the Tonkor (a) can stretch a good deal farther  than "x" level, (b) has no significant downsides to trade for that power, and (c) is obtainable before a large amount of game content. If the Tonkor was unlocked at MR18, I wouldn't care (except that it needs self damage); as is, MR5 is easily achievable by any player.

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

your style should be what you enjoy...  if you don't enjoy the weapon, don't use it.  but it is arrogant as well as presumptuous to speak for the massive numbers of players who enjoy the weapon by demanding a nerf.  

You once again miss the issue by a mile. The problem isn't my style, the problem is you, making my style impossible or at least impractical to use because of the Tonkor. I do not speak for anyone using the Tonkor, is speak for those who don't. I honestly don't care if you like the weapon of not. My issue has nothing to do with how much or how little you like the Tonkor. Will liking the Tonkor make it less OP? Will hating it make it more OP? No?  Then it is a moot point,worthy of no discussion or mention. 

 

3 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

.  Under your logic, if I don't enjoy grapes, grapes should be removed from stores because they take up valuable shelf space that could contain things that I enjoy. 

Let me underline the part that makes no sense. In your analogy, I would enjoy eating. I would like to eat a variety of foods at a variety of times. However, if you were to fill half your store with grapes and obscenely jack the price of everything up, making grapes the only real thing you can buy, I'm going to have a problem, and so will everyone else using the store. At that point, who cares if you or even I personally like grapes? Under your logic, everyone who doesn't like grapes should suffer from price gouging because you like grapes. 

 

4 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

. and all those people who enjoy grapes? they're just no skill hacks who don't know that grapes are a symptom of their lack of skill. 

What are you even talking about here?Stick to your analogy man. 

 

4 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

.repeat, the ONLY thing that should be nerfed here is the arrogance of players who demand that a weapon is nerfed when a vast number of other players enjoy that weapon as it is.

When you repeat something without adding any information about it, you waste everyone's time. Again, no one cares if you like it. Liking it has no bearing on the discussion. It adds nothing to the conversation. 

[Roving_Neophyte]

5 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

in the context of this forum, telling other players how to play there game is rude as well as arrogant.  I would be more than pleased to tell you my opinion of your post, but I'm constrained by the same forum rules you are. 

What is stupid is to nerf a weapon that the majority of the player base enjoys.  Massive nerfs to popular weapons is what gives a game a bad rep and causes players to avoid buying good weapons, assuming that they'll be nerfed. 

your logic runs; I don't enjoy these weapons, so no one should be able to play them. 

If you don't like the weapons, don't play them.  But, again, respect other players enough to allow them to make their own choices. 

Yeah, i understand that it's a polite and nice forum, this is why i'm not saying something like "everyone who uses tonkor are stupid casuals". But this is nice and polite forum, so i will not say that. Even if i actually want to.

But well, back to conversation.

First of all, you like to say that people (and probably you too) "enjoy this weapon". This is plain wrong, actually.

Maaaaybe there is a small number of people who really likes this weapon's mechanics. But others don't enjoy using tonkor. They enjoy using OP STUFF.

Let me show you an example from other game, just to show you that it is not only about tonkor and warframe - around 50% of Dark Souls 2 PvP community uses katanas and rapiers, most commonly - Chaos Blade or Ice Rapier. So, you might say "well, those people probably just like katanas and rapiers!" - NO. Most of them don't. Why they use it then? Weeell, because Chaos Blade and Ice Rapier are similar in one particular thing - they are both share the status of "strongest and easiest-to-use weapon in the game". Insanely fast blades with a damage output of a Zweihander. This is why people use these swords. Easy-win tools, basically. If a Zweihander was stronger, they would use Zweihander. They don't really care what it is until it's stronger than other weapons.

Tonkor is the same thing actually. It's overpowered, it's easy to use = weak and low-skilled players use it, just because they will die with other weapons. They don't care about the fact that they ruining the fun for something else. As well as you.

" If you don't like the weapons, don't play them " - and well, i don't play with tonkor, actually. But you're missing the point. The problem is OTHER PLAYERS WITH TONKORS, not me. THEY are playing with that OP thing, ruining the experience of every player without a tonkor.

Have a nice day, casul.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Icy_Ymir

[CapedBaldy]

13 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Maybe if you don't mod any power strength on it. 

Eh I do have some power strength, just corpus tend to be a bit crazy. 

If damage 2.0 was anything to judge by and 3.0 is coming tonkor will be a pile of poop eventually.

[Poolboy]

5 hours ago, Magneu said:

Cool, not addressing the argument again. Personally, I'd argue that linking combos on stances like Blind Justice and Final Harbinger is far more engaging that launching a single grenade and watching an army die. Not salty, just concerned about future game balance (it's always entertaining to rez Tonkor users who don't know how to do anything but run headfirst into fire while I soak up bullets with not a care in the world).

My gameplay style is irrelevant to my opinion on the Tonkor. What is relevant is the relative power of any other weapon/strategy to said Tonkor.

Your argument was "I don't like Tonkor because REAL SKILLED PLAYERS like me can't get top damage if someone else was using it. :CCC"

If you're as smart and cunning as you say you are, while Tonkor users are braindead animals... why aren't you getting top damage?

 

Also. I find it funny that you S#&$ on Tonkor using players for being bad when you just said that you just soak up damage.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Poolboy

[TheBrsrkr]

25 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

Your argument was "I don't like Tonkor because REAL SKILLED PLAYERS like me can't get top damage if someone else was using it. :CCC"

Isn't this the same guy who told me I don't know what a strawman is? I want you to reread all of those comments and tell me where the phrase "top damage" or any part reflecting that is. Also the part where dealing damage in itself is the problem. Or where it should be nerfed because skilled players can't get top damage. Basically everything you just said is an outright fabrication. 

 

29 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

"If you're as smart and cunning as you say you are, while Tonkor users are braindead animals... why aren't you getting top damage?

What is logic? No matter how much skill anyone has, a weapon vastly more powerful against what 90% of the game fights with ease of use a half blind person can operate with is going to outdo you. That's how game mechanics work. 

 

32 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

. I find it funny that you S#&$ on Tonkor using players for being bad when you just said that you just soak up damage.

What do you think tanking is? What do you think tanks do?  Have you ever seen a tank? Do I need to draw a diagram?

[Poolboy]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Isn't this the same guy who told me I don't know what a strawman is? I want you to reread all of those comments and tell me where the phrase "top damage" or any part reflecting that is. Also the part where dealing damage in itself is the problem. Or where it should be nerfed because skilled players can't get top damage. Basically everything you just said is an outright fabrication. 

 

What is logic? No matter how much skill anyone has, a weapon vastly more powerful against what 90% of the game fights with ease of use a half blind person can operate with is going to outdo you. That's how game mechanics work. 

 

What do you think tanking is? What do you think tanks do?  Have you ever seen a tank? Do I need to draw a diagram?

You can't accuse someone of strawmanning if you don't have an argument to misrepresent

[Magneu]

32 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

Your argument was "I don't like Tonkor because REAL SKILLED PLAYERS like me can't get top damage if someone else was using it. :CCC"

If you're as smart and cunning as you say you are, while Tonkor users are braindead animals... why aren't you getting top damage?

 

Also. I find it funny that you S#&$ on Tonkor using players for being bad when you just said that you just soak up damage.

That's not my argument. Don't strawman me.

I also never claimed I'm smart or cunning (whether I am or not is for me to know and you to assume); I claimed I know game mechanics. Also never claimed I get top damage (although in extended runs, I frequently do). I also never claimed that Tonkor users are "braindead animals", I stated that the Tonkor is the easiest means to an end by a large margin. Make of that what you will

When I said "soak up damage", I was obviously referring to my frame of choice which I had just mentioned, Chroma; I was stating I survive heavy fire while rezzing the Tonkor user who tried to jump into a crowd of level 90 Gunners for the tenth time.

47 minutes ago, CapedBaldy said:

Eh I do have some power strength, just corpus tend to be a bit crazy. 

If damage 2.0 was anything to judge by and 3.0 is coming tonkor will be a pile of poop eventually.

You're kind of right; while I can shrug off multiple level 100+ gunners, a single Tech or two can gun me down much quicker. Pretty sure it's due to higher puncture damage, and Ice Ward not slowing them (their own shot would have to physically hit them, as to instantaneous hit-scan reflect). Regardless, Chroma can easily tank sortie three enemies for much longer than most any other frame, besides those with invulnerability abilities.

 

Now that that's out of the way, can we get back to the Tonkor?

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Poolboy said:

You can't accuse someone of strawmanning if you don't have an argument to misrepresent

And once again you avoid the entire discussion part of the discussion to focus on what is and isn't a strawman. I'm still waiting for you to point out where he said any of those things. 

[Magneu]

Just now, Poolboy said:

You can't accuse someone of strawmanning if you don't have an argument to misrepresent

Brsrkr both laid out his own arguments and defended mine (and other's) multiple times. Ignoring those arguments, like a certain user in the first pages of this thread (who is no longer joining us here), does nothing to enhance your own argument (ignoring that your argument is simply strawmanning other arguments and blatantly insulting people. I'm led to believe you're attempting to derail this topic just to get it shut down.

[Poolboy]

30 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Brsrkr both laid out his own arguments and defended mine (and other's) multiple times. Ignoring those arguments, like a certain user in the first pages of this thread (who is no longer joining us here), does nothing to enhance your own argument (ignoring that your argument is simply strawmanning other arguments and blatantly insulting people. I'm led to believe you're attempting to derail this topic just to get it shut down.

Ah, again with the fallacy fallacy. 

 

Your "arguments" are anecdotal and opinionated. They revolve around "it ruins MY playstyle," and "I see it everywhere!" Sorry if it's hard to argue against something that's not there. 

 

 

Your car analogy is S#&$ too. Depending on how you drove the car and what you were using it for matter more than the stats. The Prius would be a much better choice over the Ferrari if you drove in the city and stopped often, just like the Soma P or Ignis will out preform the tonkor

[Leo17453]

6 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

Ah, again with the fallacy fallacy. 

 

Your "arguments" are anecdotal and opinionated. They revolve around "it ruins MY playstyle," and "I see it everywhere!" Sorry if it's hard to argue against something that's not there. 

 

 

Your car analogy is S#&$ too. Depending on how you drove the car and what you were using it for matter more than the stats. The Prius would be a much better choice over the Ferrari if you drove in the city and stopped often, just like the Soma P or Ignis will out preform the tonkor

[TheBrsrkr]

4 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

Ah, again with the fallacy fallacy. 

The fallacy fallacy involves a person using a fallacy, and the other person equates that to the opposite of the fallacy. Which was not done here. This is another red herring, which you really should stop doing because I actually am allergic to seafood. 

7 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

Your "arguments" are anecdotal and opinionated. They revolve around "it ruins MY playstyle," and "I see it everywhere!" Sorry if it's hard to argue against something that's not there. 

Giving examples is not the same as an anecdotal argument, and more than three quarters of any of the arguments in this thread have no anecdotes in them anywhere. And of course his opinions are opinionated, they're opinions. So are yours. That's what forums are for, in case you didn't notice. 

Once again, and I think this is the third time, not using a specific playstyle and not being able to play effectively are two very different things. One is much, much broader than the other and I think you can guess which one that is. Not being able to play effectively in a by rights multiplayer game is a huge issue. No player should influence another player's ability to interact with the game to. Such an extent. As for the "I see it everywhere"  part, it's not hard to snip a quote. I'd like to see where exactly he said this. Really. 

16 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

 car analogy is S#&$ too. Depending on how you drove the car and what you were using it for matter more than the stats. The Prius would be a much better choice over the Ferrari if you drove in the city and stopped often, just like the Soma P or Ignis will out preform the tonkor

There is no "depending on what you use it for" here. On Warframe, you fight groups of enemies most of the time. Launchers are very effective against groups of enemies. This launcher in particular outclasses every other launcher, and most of the other viable choices in the game to such an extent that it is the objectively best choice. People will use the objectively best choice for most of the game content. Obviously it will still have competition in  specific niches, but 90% of the game is a pretty massive niche, especially when it consists of the most played game modes. If a Ferrari cost half as much as a Prius and you had a crapload of highway to cruise through to get wherever you're going, the Prius will still outperform it in the actual city, but the Ferrari already dominates the rest of the damn road. It's not hard to understand.