DE, Please stop giving Xbows recoil, thank you

[Vanadium]

Title says it all. Crossbows don't have recoil.

For me, this is the main reason I don't use the Xbows, because the recoil on Xbows is less controllable then on my Gorgon or Supra, which is pretty silly. They're great weapons statwise, I love the flavor, I love the models, and I would love to use them, but then I remember how the Ballistica scatters its burst like a shotgun, how I can't even put Shred on the Attica, and now it looks to be the same for the Zhuge.

Simply, if my Grinlok is completely recoiless, if my Latron barely climbs per shot, why do Xbows have some of the worst per-shot recoil in the game when they aren't even guns?

Usability comes before stats, always. I'll stick with my regular bows and kunai for stealth.

[Revel72]

That is probably a balance decision.

+ Design of Zhuge is not the best. It doesn't have good stock on it. (Aka thing is set against your shoulder or chest) making the weapon extremely difficult to control in fully automatic fire.

Grinlok and Latron have a reason why they have a moderate recoil. Believe me. Firing a weapon that doesn't have a good stock to set against your shoulder or chest. Is not going to be most stable weapon. Also not the most accurate.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

The arrow or bolt used is relatively heavier compared to bullet, even with lower velocity it would pushes back on the firer

It might not be an issue for single shot, since bows are, but when firing in rapid succession the muzzle climb become rather annoying ? 

 

[Vanadium]

7 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

The arrow or bolt used is relatively heavier compared to bullet, even with lower velocity it would pushes back on the firer

It might not be an issue for single shot, since bows are, but when firing in rapid succession the muzzle climb become rather annoying ? 

 

 

Sorry guy, that's just not how recoil works, especially on bows and their derivatives. If you are interested, I would encourage you to look up a local archery range wherever you live and give it a shot (lol). I'm sure they also have a Xbow you can try out. Then we'll be on the same page.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Vanadium
forgot quote

[Ada_Wong_SG]

7 minutes ago, Vanadium said:

 

Sorry guy, that's just not how recoil works, especially on bows and their derivatives. If you are interested, I would encourage you to look up a local archery range wherever you live and give it a shot (lol). I'm sure they also have a Xbow you can try out. Then we'll be on the same page.

Newton's third law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the force applied to push the arrow forward would accelerate the crossbow backward, which with the crossbow being much heavier it can be that the weapon has enough inertia to resist being rapidly accelerated, but not totally negating the effect.

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Vanadium]

47 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

 

Newton's third law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the force applied to push the arrow forward would accelerate the crossbow backward, which with the crossbow being much heavier it can be that the weapon has enough inertia to resist being rapidly accelerated, but not totally negating the effect.

I guess I should have been more specific (I really shouldn't have to be). Xbows should not have muzzle recoil. Felt recoil (as demonstrated in that video) cannot be accurately simulated in game and is not simulated by any weapon in game currently. What we have is muzzle recoil, where the force of the gas pressure leaving the barrel results in the weapon being forced off target.

Xbows don't have muzzle recoil because they: A) Don't have barrels, B) Don't have an explosive impetus that propels the projectile resulting in gas pressure.

Again, I'd invite you to try a Xbow for yourself.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Vanadium
typo

[Rekkou]

I don't see what can be proven by comparing "real" crossbow to a "fictional" automatic crossbow that are completely different in design and mechanics and demand them to work exactly the same. Nothing will prevent DE from saying "it's a new futuristic mechanism that allows the bolts to be more powerful but causes recoils during launch"

[Ada_Wong_SG]

25 minutes ago, Vanadium said:

I guess I should have been more specific (I really shouldn't have to be). Xbows should not have muzzle recoil. Felt recoil (as demonstrated in that video) cannot be accurately simulated in game and is not simulated by any weapon in game currently. What we have is muzzle recoil, where the force of the gas pressure leaving the barrel results in the weapon being forced off target.

Xbows don't have muzzle recoil because they: A) Don't have barrels, B) Don't have an explosive impetus that propels the projectile resulting in gas pressure.

Again, I'd invite you to try a Xbow for yourself.

The felt recoil might have been cancel out by the forward motion of the bow limb ? 
Which if you wish to specifically try to explain anything ?

The initial forward acceleration of the arrow/ bolt would have recoiled the crossbow, which depending on construction and balancing,
a lighter crossbow frame with a heavier bow would result in the immediate push forward of the entire system once the bow reaches the end of the forward stroke

this forward impulse can be reduced by having a suspension system between the bow and the crossbow frame which most modern crossbow does.
That combined with powerful bow that result in almost immediate "arrow accelerate - bow reaching the released state"
can give the false impression that recoil does not apply on crossbow.

This is very similar to the M16, which might give user a strange feel when firing
the initial recoil from the muzzle is just a split second earlier than the bolt actually cycles,
which the bolt carrier would cycle back and hit home when all the buffer is compressed.
which might make you feel as if you fired a 2 round burst when it is actually single shot.

[Vanadium]

1 hour ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

-snip-

Thank you...for explaining what felt recoil is and how it can be mitigated to anyone else who might be looking at this thread.

But I'm still talking about muzzle recoil and rise, which Xbows shouldn't have and yet they do. I'm not really sure what you are trying to address with your post.

1 hour ago, Rekkou said:

I don't see what can be proven by comparing "real" crossbow to a "fictional" automatic crossbow that are completely different in design and mechanics and demand them to work exactly the same. Nothing will prevent DE from saying "it's a new futuristic mechanism that allows the bolts to be more powerful but causes recoils during launch"

Then let them say it. If DE_Steve or whoever comes in here and says, "Hey, they use compressed gas capsules in addition to a weird magnetic laser string to propel the bolt in addition to magnetic rails, thus lots of muzzle recoil on a Xbow," I will drop this forever. 

But they rarely, if ever, explain how anything works in this game. The only guns we can even guess at are about half of the Grineer weapons, which seem to produce their own solid projectiles, while being fed propellant from chemical hoppers (Grakata, Buzlok, etc.). That's just guessing.

So until someone from DE gives me some applied phlebotinum explanation, I will keep asking for for zero recoil on my Xbows. Since we're arguing over the qualities of fake guns, just as easily as you can say, "Why shouldn't they have recoil," I can say, "Why should they?"

Once again: If the Grinlok is completely recoiless, why does every Xbow have more recoil per shot than either the Supra or the Gorgon?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Vanadium

[ShikiRen]

5 minutes ago, Vanadium said:

Thank you...for explaining what felt recoil is and how it can be mitigated to anyone else who might be looking at this thread.

But I'm still talking about muzzle recoil and rise, which Xbows shouldn't have and yet they do. I'm not really sure what you are trying to address with your post.

Then let them say it. If DE_Steve or whoever comes in here and says, "Hey, they use compressed gas capsules in addition to a weird magnetic laser string to propel the bolt in addition to magnetic rails, thus lots of muzzle recoil on a Xbow," I will drop this forever. 

But they rarely, if ever, explain how anything works in this game. The only guns we can even guess at are about half of the Grineer weapons, which seem to produce their own solid projectiles, while being fed propellant from chemical hoppers (Grakata, Buzlok, etc.). That's just guessing.

So until someone from DE gives me some applied phlebotinum explanation, I will keep asking for for zero recoil on my Xbows. Since we're arguing over the qualities of fake guns, just as easily as you can say, "Why shouldn't they have recoil," I can say, "Why should they?"

Once again: If the Grinlok is completely recoiless, why does every Xbow have more recoil per shot than either the Supra or the Gorgon?

This wepaon doesn't actually have much recoil it just feels that way. Or mine was bugged yesterday. After the first shot (maybe the 2 first shots) it kicks up, yes, but when i compensated for that first recoil the other shots went almost dead center...

[Rekkou]

4 minutes ago, Vanadium said:

Then let them say it. If DE_Steve or whoever comes in here and says, "Hey, they use compressed gas capsules in addition to a weird magnetic laser string to propel the ...

They kinda already did,

This devastating automatic crossbow is the perfect marriage of ancient Earth weaponry and Tenno technology.

Feel free to nitpick further, i rest my case here.

[Vanadium]

7 minutes ago, ShikiRen said:

This wepaon doesn't actually have much recoil it just feels that way. Or mine was bugged yesterday. After the first shot (maybe the 2 first shots) it kicks up, yes, but when i compensated for that first recoil the other shots went almost dead center...

But I still don't feel like I should have to compensate for the recoil on a crossbow. Because it shouldn't have any. That's the point I'm trying make. Just like the Attica, the Zhuge is still a very good weapon stat-wise. It just doesn't feel like a Xbow (because it has recoil), so there doesn't feel like there's much reason to use it over my other pretty excellent guns.

[Misgenesis]

Then they would be beefed up Boltors. We dont need that.

[Shreiko]

Just now, Ada_Wong_SG said:

...

Thank you for doing this, I was about to come snag myself a warning point on this thread with my response. Also... "xbow".

[Ada_Wong_SG]

2 minutes ago, Vanadium said:

But I still don't feel like I should have to compensate for the recoil on a crossbow. Because it shouldn't have any. That's the point I'm trying make. Just like the Attica, the Zhuge is still a very good weapon stat-wise. It just doesn't feel like a Xbow (because it has recoil), so there doesn't feel like there's much reason to use it over my other pretty excellent guns.

I'm not really how sure we are on a fully automatic crossbow not having any recoil ?

Might be the myth from this ? 1:30 ?

 

[ShikiRen]

40 minutes ago, Vanadium said:

But I still don't feel like I should have to compensate for the recoil on a crossbow. Because it shouldn't have any. That's the point I'm trying make. Just like the Attica, the Zhuge is still a very good weapon stat-wise. It just doesn't feel like a Xbow (because it has recoil), so there doesn't feel like there's much reason to use it over my other pretty excellent guns.

*sigh* See; "no recoil" might fly for normal x-bows but not for rapid firing ones. You saw that video someone posted right? now imagine that only 4 times per second; that IS, indeed, recoil. Also you have no clue what the firing mechanism of the X-Bows in WF is, for all we know they might split atoms to propell the bolts.

[Vanadium]

3 hours ago, Shreiko said:

Thank you for doing this, I was about to come snag myself a warning point on this thread with my response. Also... "xbow".

No need to get salty just because I can shorten five letters to one and everyone still knows what I'm talking about. Also, all he's talking about is felt recoil. Nothing he says addresses why my xbows have muzzle climb.

3 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

Then they would be beefed up Boltors. We dont need that.

Nah, boltors will still have their RoF, large mag, and decent reload. They'll be fine. Honestly, I'm just happy that powercreep has made it far enough that we can just call the Boltor Prime "good" rather than "disgustingly OP". It only took a year.

2 hours ago, ShikiRen said:

*sigh* See; "no recoil" might fly for normal x-bows but not for rapid firing ones. You saw that video someone posted right? now imagine that only 4 times per second; that IS, indeed, recoil. Also you have no clue what the firing mechanism of the X-Bows in WF is, for all we know they might split atoms to propell the bolts.

Again, muzzle recoil and felt recoil are not the same. Felt recoil could not be accurately depicted in this game, unless you're talking about weapon strong enough to knock you over. Since the Tenno are superhuman Space-Ninja-Wizard-Puppets, they don't really have to worry about felt recoil.

[Shreiko]

Just now, Vanadium said:

No need to get salty...

Excuse my tone, I apologise for all that nastiness previously.

[RafaelFuchs]

Crossbows don't really have vertical recoil. The release of energy is entirely horizontal. It's not like a firearm where the release of gas comes out the barrel and could also be using the gases to cycle the weapon causing the force to be redirected and forced out in another way. I don't think an automation of the draw would cause much if any recoil. Then again, we don't have a working Attica/Zhuge in real life to observe. Whatever tech they use isn't even explained upon enough to even theorize about. 

I did find a video of someone who made an automatic crossbow, but I don't think it's up to the strength of a more 'serious' crossbow. It's still an interesting concept.

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by RafaelFuchs
Removed the pointless spoiler.

[[DE]Momaw]

I feel like a lot of you are overcomplicating the issue. Zhuge has recoil as a balancing factor. It would be measurably more powerful if it didn't have recoil, meaning more its shots easily hit the target.

If the recoil bothers you that much, check out the mod Stabilizer. :)

[Ada_Wong_SG]

1 hour ago, RafaelFuchs said:

Crossbows don't really have vertical recoil. The release of energy is entirely horizontal. It's not like a firearm where the release of gas comes out the barrel and could also be using the gases to cycle the weapon causing the force to be redirected and forced out in another way. I don't think an automation of the draw would cause much if any recoil. Then again, we don't have a working Attica/Zhuge in real life to observe. Whatever tech they use isn't even explained upon enough to even theorize about. 

I did find a video of someone who made an automatic crossbow, but I don't think it's up to the strength of a more 'serious' crossbow. It's still an interesting concept.

 

I suppose the Zhuge is modelled after this ?

 

[RafaelFuchs]

36 minutes ago, Momaw said:

I feel like a lot of you are overcomplicating the issue. Zhuge has recoil as a balancing factor. It would be measurably more powerful if it didn't have recoil, meaning more its shots easily hit the target.

If the recoil bothers you that much, check out the mod Stabilizer. :)

Recoil is a non-issue to me. It's more of the fact that it's illogical to me. Well, unless they can make up some reason of why it would kick upwards. I'd just accept it at that point because it's their game and they can make it however they wish. Lol

To be brutally honest, I don't really even care if they changed it. Projectile weapons are too finicky in Warframe.They're just not reliable in melee range and at long range vs the AI that stops on a dime for no real reason. They also have issues shooting through things with punchthrough due to how 3rd person shooters have the camera verses where the projectile is created. Therefore, those flaws in the game detract from the fun I'd otherwise have with a weapon type that I enjoy.

 

22 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I suppose the Zhuge is modelled after this ?

 

That's a repeating crossbow. It's a bit different in how the action works. A repeating styled like that makes it quite unstable and hard to aim compared to the design I found for a truly automatic crossbow that would more closely resemble how they work in Warframe. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by RafaelFuchs
Poorly worded response.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

12 minutes ago, RafaelFuchs said:

That's a repeating crossbow. It's a bit different and the action it uses makes it quite unstable and hard to aim compared to the design I found for a truly automatic crossbow. 

That is the working Zhuge... Which you precisely mentioned all of it's drawback
which recoil does not seems to matter much because the user have to fight the weapon hard to even shoot it accurately

Which is one of the reason why a pneumatic/ electric crossbow will not be a thing. 
The energy derived from those system can be made into a pneumatic gun/ coil gun with much better damage 
than a crossbow

Most automatic rifles uses recoil/ gas operated/ roller delay blowback to self-automate the firing process
using an external energy source makes the weapon depended on the ammo and energy which you need to fullfill 2 conditions for it to fire.
not a practical solution for any combat intended weapon
 

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Ada_Wong_SG

[-N7-Leonhart]

22 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

The arrow or bolt used is relatively heavier compared to bullet, even with lower velocity it would pushes back on the firer

It might not be an issue for single shot, since bows are, but when firing in rapid succession the muzzle climb become rather annoying ? 

 

Yes, that's right.

22 hours ago, Vanadium said:

 

Sorry guy, that's just not how recoil works, especially on bows and their derivatives. If you are interested, I would encourage you to look up a local archery range wherever you live and give it a shot (lol). I'm sure they also have a Xbow you can try out. Then we'll be on the same page.

No, he was right, that's exactly how it works. The reaction force of the released projectile causes the kickback. If the projectile is heavier, then the speed required for the same amount of kickback is lower. Don't tell me you are comparing a repeating crossbow with a normal crossbow? I don't have to mention which will have a lot stronger recoil.

[RafaelFuchs]

2 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

That is the working Zhuge... Which you precisely mentioned all of it's drawback
which recoil does not seems to matter much because the user have to fight the weapon hard to even shoot it accurately

Which is one of the reason why a pneumatic/ electric crossbow will not be a thing. 
The energy derived from those system can be made into a pneumatic gun/ coil gun with much better damage 
than a crossbow

Most automatic rifles uses recoil/ gas operated/ roller delay blowback to self-automate the firing process
using an external energy source makes the weapon depended on the ammo and energy which you need to fullfill 2 conditions for it to fire.
not a practical solution for any combat intended weapon
 

 

The Zhuge and Attica don't need assistance to pull the string back or load the next bolt. Therefore, they're not repeating crossbows. They are automatic crossbows. Think of a repeating crossbow like a lever-action rifle because they're quite similar in concept. 

Realistically speaking, why would you even want to progress crossbows for combat situations?