There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[RealPandemonium]

15 minutes ago, Fifield said:

The game is very easy.  There are but a few maps & missions that a team of Oberon + other weaker frames can't do.

Is that a challenge?  What would these missions be?

[Fifield]

10 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Obviously im not bashing your own system, just hoping that by giving you a different viewpoint of categories you might see that it can be very easy to say that any single frame conforms to more 'types' by defying those types around the frame in question.

Indeed, and several people have done that, reducing 10 categories to 3 and saying that Trinity doesn't dominate any of them.  Obviously, the fewer categories, the harder it is for any frame to dominate them.

Looking at your list, somebody else brought up tank, which I think is a minor role.  The meta is either kill the enemy before it can damage you, or control it or go invis so it can't.
The others I've got in various forms.  What you'd have to do is rank them in order of importance and then see if you can split the important ones so a group is equally important.

 

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Is that a challenge?  What would these missions be?

The Corpus Sortie 2 a couple of days ago was fun.

Probably undoable without a Blind Mirage or Slova.

Obviously LOR kinda needs Trinities.  Blind Mirage and/or Slova are pretty useful for 2nd stage.

[RealPandemonium]

Just now, Fifield said:

The Corpus Sortie 2 a couple of days ago was fun.

Probably undoable without a Blind Mirage or Slova.

Obviously LOR kinda needs Trinities.  Blind Mirage and/or Slova are pretty useful for 2nd stage.

What was the mission for the last Sortie 2?  Interception?

LoR doesn't need Trinities; energy/health pizzas work almost as well.  It is true that raids/sorties are pretty much designed to be cheesed and can be onerous when not exploiting outliers.  That said, a squad of 4 Oberons can definitely complete these missions, even if they bring second-string guns.  

[Fifield]

13 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

I have two questions:

1) What is your personal definition of overpowered?

2) What exactly do you mean with that second sentence?

Good questions.

#1 A frame/weapon/mod etc that is more useful than average.
#2 Frames should be different and equally useful in order for players to be able to choose to experience the full variety they provide.  If you introduce a new frame that has no useful role, it won't get used much.  If its role is dominated by another frame, it won't get used much.

[Fifield]

9 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

What was the mission for the last Sortie 2?  Interception?

Yep, that one.

9 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

LoR doesn't need Trinities; energy/health pizzas work almost as well.

Not anything like as well.  And the important point was:

36 minutes ago, Fifield said:

But they'll tell me to GTFO anyway.

 

[torint_man]

In B4 lock, the salt being flung around is ridiculous right now. I'm going to put my opinion in here and if I start detecting salt in response to me, I'll just leave, I'm not interested in getting into a salt-fest.

Right now, Trinity is dominant in the team healing niche, with the only competition being oberon and maybe nekros. She is alone in the team energy restoration niche, and has the best damage resistance (DR) potential in the game. However, she can't be all three at once. An EV trin can fulfill the team healing and restoration niche, but not the DR niche. A bless trin fulfills the healing and DR niche, but struggles with the energy niche, as her range is borked by narrow minded, and she doesn't have enough mod slots for strength. Now, I think the most important thing to consider is that she basically needs a team built around her to succeed in higher levels. IMO, her abilities reward setting up a team. In a random PUG, her abilities are still wonderfully effective, don't get me wrong, but in order to get the OP team setups that go to 2 hours or 100 waves, the team needs to fill the niches she doesn't fill. 

She has little CC, and sure, her 1-2 wombo combo does scale infinitely, but so does Inaros's pocket sand with covert lethality, which works much faster (Before you say that you can't finish some enemies, recently moas and ancients can be finished) (The only way to have a wombo combo that's less than 5 seconds requires an EV trin, and by the time the wombo combo becomes viable, the enemy damage is so high, you need a bless trin or naramon). She needs other frames with her to provide the killing power and CC. But don't get me wrong, her abilities are still so powerful on their own that even in the sortie 3 level, she can carry a PUG by herself (A blessing trin is more likely to do that than an EV trin).

Now I will analyze the two trin builds to determine what makes them powerful, and why they are often considered OP. Let's start with the bless trin. The ability of DR is not unique to trin, just they don't apply to the whole team. Iron skin, shatter shield, turbulence, and hysteria are all examples of this. If all the other DR abilities didn't apply to the whole team, that wouldn't be okay, as no other frame could fill the niche. However, she is arguably outdone by limbo. Literal 100% invincibility for a full minute, and abilities are still able to be used. A limbo plus ash could go for hours against grineer, and adding an EB excal would extend that to the void. But let's not get sidetracked with comparisons. The 99% DR is only considered OP because the enemies effectiveness at dealing damage scales much faster than their ability to take it. Damage 3.0 might or might not fix that, but if it did, the DR would simply become unnecessary, with CC being just as effective at filling the "not making the team die" niche. Also, with enemy health being higher, damage augmenting abilities would be much more desirable, shifting the meta in favor of EV. That would make EV trin OP right?

IMO, it would not. I do not think that EV trin is OP at all. In most situations, even in wave 100/2 hours, she is simply unnecessary(Except in LoR, due to the bombs taking so much energy to charge, and RJ excals in draco). The focus meta is basically all zenurik and naramon, with naramon being used in solo situations, and zenurik in team situations. 4 energy per second is hard to outspend, especially when using efficiency mods, and the fact that enemies drop energy orbs. Also in the rare emergency, we always have energy pizzas. EV trin does not allow the game to be broken in ways we don't already, so, IMO, she is not OP.

On the topic of removing the ability to allow self damage for the damage reduction on bless, it wouldn't change anything, because I can always either get teammates to get damaged by enemies, or get damaged by enemies myself, which is doable because of melee blocking. Even getting a 90% bless would still be enough for the vast majority of situations.

IMO, in order for an ability to be considered OP, it has to allow something highly desirable that can't be done without it, or not anywhere near as well. EV trin is not OP by this definition because we have zenurik and energy plates. Bless trin is OP by this definition, as the only competition it has is limbo, and I don't see anyone saying "Limbo OP". 

At the end of the day, I don't think trinity should be changed right now. With damage 3.0 on the way, any changes to her blessing should be after damage 3.0 drops, not before. Her EV does not need changes because it doesn't allow trivialization of the energy economy in ways we can't do already, because zenurik and pizzas.

[RealPandemonium]

10 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Yep, that one.

Not anything like as well.  And the important point was:

 

Level 80 Corpus Interception is very doable without powerspam, though Oberon himself could p4tw in that mission as well.  

 LoR stage needs energy for the battery carrier and health for everyone, both of which can be solved by a couple of pizzas. I did this myself when the raid first came out; only lag and d/cs prevented us from completing it consistently.  

Best way to eliminate cheese-reliance is to get rid of the cheese.   If the cheese goes away, people will figure out how to complete content without training wheels, and content will be adjusted to fit the new paradigm instead of remaining unreasonably tuned.  

[Fifield]

I think yours is one of very few decent replies in this thread.

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

IMO, in order for an ability to be considered OP, it has to allow something highly desirable that can't be done without it, or not anywhere near as well. EV trin is not OP by this definition because we have zenurik and energy plates.

However, I'd have to disagree with your criterion for OP.  Tonkor is not the only weapon that can obliterate level 80 squads of enemies without even aiming properly, but it's still OP.  Blind is not the only ability that can disable every enemy on the map (outside of a nullifier) but it's still OP.

OP implies that something is bad for the game.  Most people say P4TW is bad for the game.  EV is fundamental to ability spam, at least when not camping.  Nothing else in the game can do that.

EV also provides around 200 energy a second to the whole team more or less at will, no matter where individual players are (within a very large radius).  Zenurik is 50x less when maxed in comparison and obviously doesn't affect other players.

You could argue that EV doesn't make you feel very powerful, that really it makes other frames OP.  I'd say it should be balanced either way.

BTW, Blessing is surprisingly underabused in my experience.

 

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Level 80 Corpus Interception is very doable without powerspam

Well I didn't try it with a 5 forma'd Tonkor but even I couldn't hold down one of the main points with a Frost.  Nobody could.  You could cheese it with Hydroids.  Otherwise, it's spamming either mapwide CC abilities or cheesing it with a Mag.

I notice the current Sortie 3 is a Corpus interception...

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Look for youself dude you dont have a point of view , u have a personal crusade against trinity , she s not a witch 

[letir]

Energy efficiency can keep ability spam even without EV. With Zenurik it's even more easier. EV hardly OP, it's add cherry on the crop, but not necessary.

Edited March 22, 2016 by letir

[RealPandemonium]

Just now, Fifield said:

Well I didn't try it with a 5 forma'd Tonkor but even I couldn't hold down one of the main points with a Frost.  Nobody could.  You could cheese it with Hydroids.  Otherwise, it's spamming either mapwide CC abilities or cheesing it with a Mag.

I notice the current Sortie 3 is a Corpus interception...

Really, the biggest factor for completing an Interception without cheesing is to capture all four points simultaneously.  After that, it isn't hard to keep enemies off the consoles with decent equipment.  Biggest mistake people make is to stagger the initial capture and then go on a never ending spiral around the map trying to re-cap.  

[Amazerath]

14 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Good questions.

#1 A frame/weapon/mod etc that is more useful than average.
#2 Frames should be different and equally useful in order for players to be able to choose to experience the full variety they provide.  If you introduce a new frame that has no useful role, it won't get used much.  If its role is dominated by another frame, it won't get used much.

So you are really talking about balance, not just Trinity. I understand.

The way I see it, the amount of balance a game needs is directly related to how challenging that game is. If the game is too easy, then you will be able to succeed without even using all of the power that's available to you. But if the game is challenging, then taking full advantage of the power available to you becomes a requirement.

Which of those two examples better describes Warframe? Well, they both kind of do. And that is a problem because if you assume Warframe is just one of those two things then you're ignoring an important part of the community. Which is one of the reasons why the game has always been kind of all over the place.

Again, I understand and even agree with what you're saying. I'd like the game to be more balanced as a whole. But I would not like the game to be more balanced at the cost of being allowed to run solo missions or playing with random people who aren't very good at teamwork.

 

[Fifield]

57 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

The way I see it, the amount of balance a game needs is directly related to how challenging that game is. If the game is too easy, then you will be able to succeed without even using all of the power that's available to you. But if the game is challenging, then taking full advantage of the power available to you becomes a requirement.

The only problem with these premises is that you're generalising across all missions a player might be compelled to run.

There are challenging missions, at least if you refuse to cheese them:
Sorties 2 & 3 occasionally.  But you can only really do that once a day and more often than not they're easy.
Some nodes eg Cerberus.  But there's little reward and a half decent team will beat it easily.

Even with Sorties, you're forced to do Sortie 1, which is nearly always a piece of cake that you could do with a level 0 frame and a Lato.

So it would be fairer to say that we are grossly overpowered for the vast majority of missions that we are compelled to do.  And if we nerf ourselves, randoms are likely to complain.

Secondly, we cannot choose to do more challenging missions, and if Sorties 2 & 3 are easy then we cannot even choose to do 1.

57 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

But I would not like the game to be more balanced at the cost of being allowed to run solo missions or playing with random people who aren't very good at teamwork.

Solo can be somewhat balanced through enemy count, enemy difficulty and extra revives.  DE already do the the former.

There's no reason why randoms should be able to do the hardest missions in the game without putting some effort into planning, modding etc.

Personally, I favour optional difficulty where rewards aren't valuable but not necessary.  This could mean obtaining stuff faster or rarer stuff that isn't any stronger than mainstream stuff.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Fifield

[Amazerath]

@Fifield

My argument wasn't referring to the missions you play in Warframe. It was presented so that I could make my point about Warframe being a mix between a casual game and a hardcore game. Most games decide to be one thing or the other. Warframe seems to have decided it wants to be both and this decision obviously creates problems. Because it is a decision that forces the game to please two groups of players that often have very different opinions about the importance of balance, challenge and many other things.

What I was trying to say in my previous post is that I support balance as a road that leads to challenge. But I do not support notions of balance that force all players to either go hardcore or quit the game.

[Manyc]

5 hours ago, Fifield said:

However, I'd have to disagree with your criterion for OP.  Tonkor is not the only weapon that can obliterate level 80 squads of enemies without even aiming properly, but it's still OP.  Blind is not the only ability that can disable every enemy on the map (outside of a nullifier) but it's still OP.

OP implies that something is bad for the game.  Most people say P4TW is bad for the game.  EV is fundamental to ability spam, at least when not camping.  Nothing else in the game can do that.

You know what's OP in here? Your wish to be right, you're blinded by your own pride to admit defeat on any argument or even just accept something that disagrees with you. Why don't you try to nerf that instead before posting more?

5 hours ago, Fifield said:

Well I didn't try it with a 5 forma'd Tonkor but even I couldn't hold down one of the main points with a Frost.  Nobody could.  You could cheese it with Hydroids.  Otherwise, it's spamming either mapwide CC abilities or cheesing it with a Mag.

I notice the current Sortie 3 is a Corpus interception...

Ivara can solo Sortie 3 Corpus Interception, or any for that matter, with just 1 energy restore per round (that is if I just don't want to wait a minute and half to regenerate as much passively)... Wanna start fighting over how OP she is now and that she also needs a nerf?

[Hellmaker2004]

5 hours ago, Fifield said:

Well I didn't try it with a 5 forma'd Tonkor but even I couldn't hold down one of the main points with a Frost.  Nobody could.  You could cheese it with Hydroids.  Otherwise, it's spamming either mapwide CC abilities or cheesing it with a Mag.

I notice the current Sortie 3 is a Corpus interception...

 

I did it solo with Iranos, Dual Toxocyst and a Sancti Tigris prepared for the Bursas.

So what is considered Overpowered or cheese in this? The AoE of the Dual Toxocyst, Iranos survivability, his healing, his crowd control or the burst Sancti Tigris have?

 

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, Manyc said:

You know what's OP in here? Your wish to be right, you're blinded by your own pride to admit defeat on any argument or even just accept something that disagrees with you. Why don't you try to nerf that instead before posting more?

LOL still waiting for a valid counterargument other than 'I like the game to be easy'.  But GJ attacking me instead the argument.

[torint_man]

6 hours ago, Fifield said:

I think yours is one of very few decent replies in this thread.

However, I'd have to disagree with your criterion for OP.  Tonkor is not the only weapon that can obliterate level 80 squads of enemies without even aiming properly, but it's still OP.  Blind is not the only ability that can disable every enemy on the map (outside of a nullifier) but it's still OP.

OP implies that something is bad for the game.  Most people say P4TW is bad for the game.  EV is fundamental to ability spam, at least when not camping.  Nothing else in the game can do that.

EV also provides around 200 energy a second to the whole team more or less at will, no matter where individual players are (within a very large radius).  Zenurik is 50x less when maxed in comparison and obviously doesn't affect other players.

You could argue that EV doesn't make you feel very powerful, that really it makes other frames OP.  I'd say it should be balanced either way.

BTW, Blessing is surprisingly underabused in my experience.

 

Keep in mind that I said "in order for an Ability to be OP". In my mind, the qualifications for OP weapons and OP abilities are significantly different. Mirage's prisim is OP by my definition because it does the disabling in a 50+m radius w/ out LoS. The only other ability with the CC caliber of prisim is vauban's bastille, which is much more expensive, and requires going from one end of the map to the other. Her prisim outstrips any other ability in terms of CC, and is in a tiny minority of abilities with CC of that caliber, so is OP. 

Sure, EV trin does allow 200 energy per second, but it is largely unnecessary, due to the fact we already have built into the game ways for any frame to break the energy economy, in the form of efficiency mods, zenurik, and energy pizzas. Every frame can break the energy economy to a large extent, which means EV does not uniquely break the energy economy, which means,(by my definition of OP Abilities) EV is not OP.

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

The only other ability with the CC caliber of prisim is vauban's bastille, which is much more expensive, and requires going from one end of the map to the other.

That just means Blind is more broken.  Another definition of OP might be 'frequently makes content that's should be challenging easy'.  Molecular Prime is another one.  All 3 are as broken as hell.

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

in the form of efficiency mods, zenurik, and energy pizzas

I don't think they're legitimately comparable to EV for reasons given twice already.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Fifield

[torint_man]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

I don't think they're legitimately comparable to EV for reasons given twice already.

I do think efficiency mods, zenurik, and pizzas are comparable to EV because the majority of good abilities don't need EV.

If zenurik did not exist, or wasn't the best focus for team situations, EV would, IMO, be OP. However, because it does, I do not consider EV to be inherently OP. I will concede EV to be OP if it allows the spamming of abilities that are "OP" as well.(I put OP in quotes there because there is the potential for a not OP ability to be OP if it is able to be spammed ad infinitum)

In order for an ability to outstrip zenurik(and by extension require an EV trin), it has to be one that benefits from high strength(i.e. builds around it use blind rage and by extension have low efficiency), and be able to be spammed while still being worthwhile(i.e. an ability you typically use repeatedly, like excal's RJ on draco).

IMO, only three abilities met this criteria(If you have disagreements with this list, feel free to voice them). Excal's RJ, vauban's bastille, and banshee's sonar. RJ is only included because it's used in draco and nowhere else, as it's just flat damage. Bastille and sonar are the only abilities usable into endgame, and need an EV to use to their highest potential. Bastille, however is arguably not going to be used in serious high level play, because as I previously mentioned, it is outstripped by prisim. So that, IMO, leaves sonar. Sonar does not break the game, as it does not have CC attached to it, but does allow insta kills to incredibly high levels. I have yet to hear anyone say "Sonar OP", so sonar is probably not OP by itself.

Being able to use sonar repeatedly might or might not be OP, but even if it was, EV still wouldn't be OP because(As far as I can tell), it only enables one ability to dominate one niche (damage augmentation in the case of sonar). The rest of the other niche dominating abilities do not outstrip zenurik.

Edited March 23, 2016 by torint_man

[Helleborr]

[Yaaaaaawn] This topic still going on in the same key of Trinity dominating most of subjectively defined roles? We still in denial of a myriad combinations of different mission types, factions, enemy levels, each one of which is easy to do with a certain comp and hard with others? We still miss the fact that matching a setup to an offered challenge to make it easier has been the entire point of this game all along?

Let's recap then. OP thinks that:

1. He can define general roles without the context of a challenge that needs to be accomplished;
2. That Trinity somehow dominates some of the most important roles;
3. That game is too easy;
4. That anyone who disagrees with the above simply likes it to be easy, but won't admit it;

And although none of the points above are anything more than subjective opinions based on impressions, he still makes another leap in that chain of twisted logic and asserts that his opinion about game being too easy is somehow more valid (and therefore more deserving to be acted upon by the devs) than the opinions of other people, whether those that don't find it easy or those that do, but like it that way. I guess at this point the only question that remains is why DE is missing out on an opportunity to hire someone who has the only valid opinion™, so that they can finally "balance the game", "make it not too easy", "nerf OP frames and abilities" and if anyone disagrees, then they just need to "git gud". Gee, never seen topics like this before.

Back on our planet, Trin is still underrepresented even despite her merits as an EV bot for Draco. And Warframe is a beautiful game because it has almost always provided elegant ways to solve problems that are hard if you don't do it right. It's rare for me to honestly compliment DE, but seeing such topics I can't help but appreciate that despite calls for homogenization, DE has continually pursued the route of niche power for warframes, where each of them would be good at doing something in a certain mission type against a certain faction, which is when and where that frame will be picked. Good job DE. ^.^

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

If zenurik did not exist, or wasn't the best focus for team situations, EV would, IMO, be OP.

Zenurik doesn't make EV less powerful.  Your criterion makes no sense.  Since most players consider P4TW to be damaging to the game, EV is OP.

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, Helleborr said:

Let's recap then. OP thinks that:

1. He can define general roles without the context of a challenge that needs to be accomplished;

Yes and already did.  This is not a counterargument.

4 minutes ago, Helleborr said:

That Trinity somehow dominates some of the most important roles;

Yes and already demonstrated how.

5 minutes ago, Helleborr said:

That game is too easy;

Yes and I've yet to find a high level random who disagrees. It's the reason my whole clan quit.  Literally no-one in the thread, in spite of the dozen or so bogus counterarguments, has said it isn't easy.

5 minutes ago, Helleborr said:

That anyone who disagrees with the above simply likes it to be easy, but won't admit it;

No, this is a strawman argument.  One player was honest and said they like it easy.   It's the only valid counterargument so far.

But good job attacking me instead of the argument and being the 7th or so person disagreeing but somehow failing to provide a valid counterargument.