Mesa and Fear to Ash's Future

[_Raiklar_]

6 hours ago, LunarEdge7 said:

What is wrong with synergy? I like synergy. He does. One of the DEs said they'd like to make the frames' abilities synergise with each other in the future (iirc). 

Besides, more frames in the future will turn out to be copycats or super-similar movesets (looking at you, Wukong and his copycat 1 and 4 with an erection bonus..) so this'll make them a little more different..?

in this case it wont work. it would be like ok here comes the Ash rework....    first you have to be in smoke screen, then cast shuriken, then teleport oh now you can blade storm, for the damage to be viable but by this time your either dead or you have already kill the enemy with the shuriken or you melee. so no Synergy will not work for Ash.

[CrudShuzKong]

9 hours ago, sushidubya said:

Yeah but that's YOUR opinion bro and it bears just as much weight as anyone else's...  You may 100% believe that what you're saying makes perfect sense, but people are allowed to have a different point of view and owe you nothing with regards to justifying their own feelings, etc.

Not everyone comes to the forums here looking for a good argument.

also...  Why do people who play the game for two months believe they know better than people who've played for two years on what belongs or doesn't belong in the game?

I started playing this game exactly on the day it was released on steam, I just restarted playing it more seriously 3 monts ago, this time also getting involved in the forums.

I also have been doing game-design for some smaller projects for my programmer friends, so i do have some experience with game design choices that can or cannot be good for the flow of the game or not. And Bladestorm is definitley in the category of gameplay disrupting design (whether or not that is ok in this game, lies solely with the developers and they will choose what to do with it). I do not like such things in action based games, and thus am voicing my opinion against it.

Edited March 23, 2016 by CrudShuzKong

[CrudShuzKong]

10 hours ago, Ookami_Nihonto said:

and here it is the infamous making abilities so they have no real function because now not only do they not do the damage to be a viable ability but are now dependant on the other abilities and require the possibility of having to target on each ability cast. Almost in the nabhourhood of Saryn's rework, which I don't want to get into cause of all the toxicity of that mega thread that's still going on. Not everything has to be synergized.

My problem with Ash is, that his most interesting abilities (teleport and smokescreen) are completely overshadowed by his 4, which is in 90% of cases just the better choice to use. That leads to people endlessly spamming it without any downside.

I fail to see why you say that my suggestion has no function? in a stealth run you dont even need to cast the other abilities to use the infinite single target burst coming from the finishers and as far as im concerned, all the existing exalted melee stances are a hell of a lot of fun to fool around with on their own.

You can even stay invincible during a (way more focused and bursty) Bladestorm now, all you have to do is not leave the pc and stay somewhat focused.I really dont get why it is desireable at any point to take the hands off the keyboard and hope that the right targets die, because you have no choice whatsoever, who will take the dmage (unless you are still in low enough levels that anything dies regardless of targeting in which case it is just boring to me).

[AKKILLA]

1 hour ago, Ookami_Nihonto said:

in this case it wont work. it would be like ok here comes the Ash rework....    first you have to be in smoke screen, then cast shuriken, then teleport oh now you can blade storm, for the damage to be viable but by this time your either dead or you have already kill the enemy with the shuriken or you melee. so no Synergy will not work for Ash.

I fully disagree with You where You stated that Synergy will not work for Ash. If You just personally dont like the idea its your opinion, fine. 

Merely claiming, No synergy wont work for Ash is wrong. I support a synergy rework for Ash and I have posted some threads with reworks emphasizing synergy to Ashs whole kit. You made a example scenario which i was tryna understand what you were simulating and TBH i dont know what you where making an example of nor do i think you do as well.

If You care to reiterate in detail what you were explaining with the whole "first you have to be in smoke screen, then cast shuriken, then teleport" concept cuz I dont know when someone offered that idea.

[AKKILLA]

21 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

My problem with Ash is, that his most interesting abilities (teleport and smokescreen) are completely overshadowed by his 4, which is in 90% of cases just the better choice to use. That leads to people endlessly spamming it without any downside.

I fail to see why you say that my suggestion has no function? in a stealth run you dont even need to cast the other abilities to use the infinite single target burst coming from the finishers and as far as im concerned, all the existing exalted melee stances are a hell of a lot of fun to fool around with on their own.

You can even stay invincible during a (way more focused and bursty) Bladestorm now, all you have to do is not leave the pc and stay somewhat focused.I really dont get why it is desireable at any point to take the hands off the keyboard and hope that the right targets die, because you have no choice whatsoever, who will take the dmage (unless you are still in low enough levels that anything dies regardless of targeting in which case it is just boring to me).

A game designer huh? Well from a designers view point check this thread I posted ideas that can be implemented in game in a less then a month for Ash before a Major Rework which IMO Ash needs a Full Rework and QoL to his abilities.

Tell Me Your honest opinion I kept it short and to the point

 

[SquireAngel]

I'm really conflicted over how Ash should be worked on, for the same reason Scott is more devoted to doing Mag and Volt than dealing with the can of worms that is an Ash rework. With Ash's 4, it's really awesome to watch, and it's satisfying to use. I remember them talking in a devstream, shortly after the Mesa Peacemaker rework, about Ash being an issue they didn't know how to handle. On the one hand, his animations took a lot of work, and looks and feels amazing. On the other hand, DE doesn't want Fire and Forget abilities. The devs take pride in what they create, so it's harder on them to try and find a way to keep BS intact. They love it and worked hard on it, but on the other hand, it doesn't match the pacing of the game they continue to make. 

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

23 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

From Steve's tweet, I'm reading that Ash's ultimate wont change too much. It sounds like Ash sends clones to assassinate for him instead of going on a rampage with them. If that is true, then Bladestorm's damage wont get reduced at all, the Ash player just can't go for groceries when casting it, becasue he keeps walking around normally and is vulnerable.

That would be bad. Although if ash can just cast smokescreen and use weapons it will actually be better.

On 22/03/2016 at 0:23 PM, CrudShuzKong said:

How about no.

You sound like that one person, who really likes playing games, if he can somehow circumvent playing the actual game.

If you like Bladestorm the way it is now, Warframe is not a game you should play, since it appearntly is too much effort to bother with if you can't just hit that one button and take a timeout to go make a coffee.

My advice? Get your sh*t together and play warframe for what the game is about or go back to WoW or wherever you got the idea that Bladestorm is good game design.

Not gonna say that you are totally wrong about mesa's rework though, that one isnt much better than the original (but it is better nonetheless).

Really made me wanna spit in your face. OP is spot on. Warframe is balanced around abilities like bladestorm any endless type sortie 3 is proof. Bladestorm is the only truly viable antiarmor nuke.

 

19 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I actaully did not play with a single WoF Ember in the last 2 months, because i dont play in open parties under level 30, and above that they dont do any damage anymore, so they dont bother trying it.

Inaros being able to tank everything ever under levle 50 is not a huge problem either, because he doesnt deal any damage while jsut tanking, and you need to use his weapons to get kills.

Someone sucks at modding. I take ember into infested sorties, and even juggernaut spawn is ok.

[SoulHunter2008]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

That would be bad. Although if ash can just cast smokescreen and use weapons it will actually be better.

Really made me wanna spit in your face. OP is spot on. Warframe is balanced around abilities like bladestorm any endless type sortie 3 is proof. Bladestorm is the only truly viable antiarmor nuke.

 

Someone sucks at modding. I take ember into infested sorties, and even juggernaut spawn is ok.

Hey relax he has said in other posts that it was a rushed message because he was dealing with the toxic players in another thread that make abilities like Blade Storm a problem and thought this was another thread with the same message which we all know now its not a thread saying change isn't needed its a thread say FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DE DO NOT RUIN ASH his ability to use Blade Storm to really get in the action and assassinate a bunch of targets in quick succession really has a solid feel. That said it does indeed have problems that have plagued it since its inception. It is an outdated ability that need to be brought up to standard the main problem is the ability style does not need to change to fix 90% for the issues if you look at one of my posts on page 3 I list the main problems and easy (easy for me to type, but fairly easy to implement) solutions.

[S0V3REiGN]

@SquireAngel I hope that sunk cost fallacy isn't the reason they won't explore further options to make Ash better. Scrapping Bladestorm as is may be the best course of action.

Edited March 23, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

19 minutes ago, SoulHunter2008 said:

Hey relax he has said in other posts that it was a rushed message because he was dealing with the toxic players in another thread that make abilities like Blade Storm a problem and thought this was another thread with the same message which we all know now its not a thread saying change isn't needed its a thread say FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DE DO NOT RUIN ASH his ability to use Blade Storm to really get in the action and assassinate a bunch of targets in quick succession really has a solid feel. That said it does indeed have problems that have plagued it since its inception. It is an outdated ability that need to be brought up to standard the main problem is the ability style does not need to change to fix 90% for the issues if you look at one of my posts on page 3 I list the main problems and easy (easy for me to type, but fairly easy to implement) solutions.

It's perfectly fine mostly. And there's no need to bloody homogenise all nukes. It's already bad. They shouldn't touch bladestorm at all or just tweak the camera. 

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

4 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I started playing this game exactly on the day it was released on steam, I just restarted playing it more seriously 3 monts ago, this time also getting involved in the forums.

I also have been doing game-design for some smaller projects for my programmer friends, so i do have some experience with game design choices that can or cannot be good for the flow of the game or not. And Bladestorm is definitley in the category of gameplay disrupting design (whether or not that is ok in this game, lies solely with the developers and they will choose what to do with it). I do not like such things in action based games, and thus am voicing my opinion against it.

While the forum date truly doesn't indicate how long you've been playing.  (Personally, I started forums 1-2 months after I started on Steam.)  It still doesn't justify bringing any rage to the forums at all.  

With regards to your "qualifications" listed in an attempt to put forth your opinion as being more valid than someone else's...  Well I'm just not buying it and don't see how you can just come in here and put someone down for feeling differently from you.  It's just not necessary in a feedback forum.

It's fine to say you don't like such things in action games, voice your opinion, etc.  Keep it like that.  No need to give someone a throwdown here.

[CrudShuzKong]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

It's perfectly fine mostly. And there's no need to bloody homogenise all nukes. It's already bad. They shouldn't touch bladestorm at all or just tweak the camera. 

Bladestorm is not fine. It has more issues than funtions and should as is only be used while playing solo with ash.
Let me tell you al lof the issues again so you can think about them:

• p42w: the ability does not require any skill or attention to use, is highly spammable without getting punished, and deals anourmous damage while that is the case (i'm fine with the damage, just not how it is applied)
• It completely disrupts any form of teamplay by making rooms of enemies invincible and thus wasting the resources and time of your teammates (you probably don't care about this because you are the Ash, also you most likely play solo most of the time).
• It feels satisfying, yet looks incredibly bad: spastic camera movement, inconsistent behavior, bugging out in the thick of it, causing you to watch an ash stuck idling somewhere in the middle of the room.

If this is "perfectly fine mostly", you spent too much time in steam early access :)

[CrudShuzKong]

13 minutes ago, sushidubya said:

While the forum date truly doesn't indicate how long you've been playing.  (Personally, I started forums 1-2 months after I started on Steam.)  It still doesn't justify bringing any rage to the forums at all.  

With regards to your "qualifications" listed in an attempt to put forth your opinion as being more valid than someone else's...  Well I'm just not buying it and don't see how you can just come in here and put someone down for feeling differently from you.  It's just not necessary in a feedback forum.

It's fine to say you don't like such things in action games, voice your opinion, etc.  Keep it like that.  No need to give someone a throwdown here.

I was just giving a counter argument to the post before, nothin more. I do not insist that my view is superior, but i intent to fight for a change, because that is what i want and everyone should fight for what he wants, if he can.

Also I already Apologised for my toxic and overacted first post, as it was rushed and I mistook OP for another one of those Kids crying that Bladestorm is the best thing in the game and should never be touched in any way, since i had been dealing with those the whole day before that.

My opinion on the game design aspect of Bladestorm being bad (bad here doesnt mean that the devs did a bad job with it, or are lazy or anything, just that some mechanics of it arent too desireable) is shared by a lot of people and even some (if not most) of the devs. Just becasue it is bad game design doesnt mean it is no fun, it just means that it should be avoided in further reworks since it doesnt fit with the direction that the game is going in. There are games where the whole meta is based on bad game design choices and making the best out of them (professional smash bros melee) and those games are fun in their own crazy way.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 hour ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Bladestorm is not fine. It has more issues than funtions and should as is only be used while playing solo with ash.
Let me tell you al lof the issues again so you can think about them:

• p42w: the ability does not require any skill or attention to use, is highly spammable without getting punished, and deals anourmous damage while that is the case (i'm fine with the damage, just not how it is applied)
• It completely disrupts any form of teamplay by making rooms of enemies invincible and thus wasting the resources and time of your teammates (you probably don't care about this because you are the Ash, also you most likely play solo most of the time).
• It feels satisfying, yet looks incredibly bad: spastic camera movement, inconsistent behavior, bugging out in the thick of it, causing you to watch an ash stuck idling somewhere in the middle of the room.

If this is "perfectly fine mostly", you spent too much time in steam early access :)

I don't play on pc and definitely don't touch any early access at all. It's a truly powerful and satisfying nuke. 

Yes, camera could use work. But other than that all I see is someone crying that ash stealing their kills. Working as intended, cry some more. I personally always welcome an ash as nova or disarm loki, he helps clearing enemies stuck on different floors and in geometry. And enemies being invincible is fine, they are dead anyway and I clearly see which ones are marked in red.

[CrudShuzKong]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

I don't play on pc and definitely don't touch any early access at all. It's a truly powerful and satisfying nuke. 

Yes, camera could use work. But other than that all I see is someone crying that ash stealing their kills. Working as intended, cry some more. I personally always welcome an ash as nova or disarm loki, he helps clearing enemies stuck on different floors and in geometry. And enemies being invincible is fine, they are dead anyway and I clearly see which ones are marked in red.

Just FYI: I dont care about K/D and such thing at all, but the fact that you bring this up just shows what exactly the cancerous kind of Bladestorm-Defenders is about: playing the easy mode of the game and still topping leaderboards because thats how its supposed to be because you are such a high skilled player.

[AKKILLA]

5 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

My problem with Ash is, that his most interesting abilities (teleport and smokescreen) are completely overshadowed by his 4, which is in 90% of cases just the better choice to use. That leads to people endlessly spamming it without any downside.

I fail to see why you say that my suggestion has no function? in a stealth run you dont even need to cast the other abilities to use the infinite single target burst coming from the finishers and as far as im concerned, all the existing exalted melee stances are a hell of a lot of fun to fool around with on their own.

You can even stay invincible during a (way more focused and bursty) Bladestorm now, all you have to do is not leave the pc and stay somewhat focused.I really dont get why it is desireable at any point to take the hands off the keyboard and hope that the right targets die, because you have no choice whatsoever, who will take the dmage (unless you are still in low enough levels that anything dies regardless of targeting in which case it is just boring to me).

 

I just spoke about that with him in My Ash thread, He does seem to be mad about Kill Steals and I understand in one point, I careless about peoples kill streaks and that doesnt interest Me in the slightest. His Logic tho to Ash ideas is kinda illogical, as He stated a Ninja shouldnt go berserker, but a Ninjas smoke screen shouldnt leave up an AoE cloud that stuns enemies and opens finishers. What Logic is his Logic I honestly dont know, maybe a self centered logic where everything is how he wishes? Ninjas dont turn invisibile either, they hide and blend in to the environment but im not here to discuss Ninja logic or talk about Tenchu/Metal Gear mechanics.

This is Warframe and here anything goes, Ninjas logic is as good as folk lore and japanese mythology here.

No point in stating Your Ninja Logic of Real Ninjas cuz I have enough knowledge on Real Ninjas as I am a inja Enthusiast and I lve talking about Feudal Japan history but were not here for that this is about Mesa and Ash.

 

[LunarEdge7]

When I see enemies lit in red, I know it's Ash. I either consume any food beside my monitor while watching, or I go elsewhere to kill things. I don't care about kills, I care about killing enough to make sure we all survive.

Also, I got the habit to mark tough ones like Eximii/Bombards out for Ash to take out. xD

Edited March 23, 2016 by LunarEdge7

[CrudShuzKong]

5 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

When I see enemies lit in red, I know it's Ash. I either consume any food beside my monitor while watching, or I go elsewhere to kill things. I don't care about kills, I care about killing enough to make sure we all survive.

Also, I got the habit to mark tough ones like Eximii/Bombards out for Ash to take out. xD

And then you find out that glitchstorm failed to makr that one bombard in teh room that is currently unloading his mag at you :)

And I am smart enough to not touch enemies lit up red, what i dont like is, that i have to break my combo because ash decides he wants part of the cake as well and happened to get LoS on the Wave I happen to work on just now. I dont mind  good uses of bladestorm, when Ash spots a group containing some energy leeches and whatnot and takes them out in one swoop. What I do mind is when the Ash just stands on his Vantage point waiting for anything to come into LoS just so he can 4 the heck out of tehm and his teammates get to roll the dice if they get the 33% cahnce that its their group of enemies he "helps" with.

[_Raiklar_]

8 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

I fully disagree with You where You stated that Synergy will not work for Ash. If You just personally dont like the idea its your opinion, fine. 

Merely claiming, No synergy wont work for Ash is wrong. I support a synergy rework for Ash and I have posted some threads with reworks emphasizing synergy to Ashs whole kit. You made a example scenario which i was tryna understand what you were simulating and TBH i dont know what you where making an example of nor do i think you do as well.

If You care to reiterate in detail what you were explaining with the whole "first you have to be in smoke screen, then cast shuriken, then teleport" concept cuz I dont know when someone offered that idea.

it wasn't offered. I was using that as a example as how i saw the rework beinging. It may not be that way. As I see it synergy means that the abilities wont work unless they require an order in which the abilities have to be cast, in a sertant combination it may be a poor example but I'll use Saryn's, ok.  And this is how i see the only way for her to be effective. you have to cast molt then load it up with spores only then is her ult viable. as her 3 is only for her melee.  So if Ash is reworked in this way i can't see how synergy will work for him.  its bad enough that after the last rework of Blade storm he now will sometimes only it one enemy 18 times and still not kill it. yes he needs some work but I don't think synergy is the right direction for him.

As well if they do rework all his abilities like they did Excal. and move his ult to his three what ability will he lose and what will they give him to make him still be the master assassin that he's always been or at least used to be, before the inception of those d@mn@ble clones.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Ookami_Nihonto

[CrudShuzKong]

10 minutes ago, Ookami_Nihonto said:

it wasn't offered. I was using that as a example as how i saw the rework beinging. It may not be that way. As I see it synergy means that the abilities wont work unless they require an order in which the abilities have to be cast. it may be a poor example but I'll use Saryn's, ok.  And this is how i see the only way for her to be effective. you have to cast molt then load it up with spores only then is her ult viable. as her 3 is only for her melee.  So if Ash is reworked in this way i can't see how synergy will work for him.

You are wrong about "her only way to be effective", pretty much any good saryn player will tell you that the combo you are referring to is not only useless, but also not her main damage source.

I do agree though taht Saryn's synergy feels forced and is way too complicated, luckily it does not impare her ability to deal incredible amounts of damage, thanks to spore alone being actually stronger than the "wombo-combo". The devs know this and likely won't make the same mistake again. Synergy is good, as long as it gives QoL and is not a requirement for damage (or at least not for the majority of the damage).

Edited March 23, 2016 by CrudShuzKong

[_Raiklar_]

Just now, CrudShuzKong said:

You are wrong about "her only way to be effective", pretty much any good saryn player will tell you that the combo you are referring to is not only useless, but also not her main damage source.

Saryn's Synergy feels forced and is way too complicated, luckily it does not impare her ability to deal incredible amounts of damage, thanks to spore alone being actually stronger than the "wombo-combo". The devs know this and likely won't make the same mistake again. Synergy is good, as long as it gives QoL and is not a requirement for damage (or at least not for the majority of the damage).

like i said this was how i saw her rework and that it may be a poor example I don't really play her much. but if they rework him like they did Excal I see him being even more broken cause now when i see Excal players all they do is spam exalted blade.

[Fast_98]

I don't mind them reworking Ash 4 to be a stance but I just hope that they won't take all of his aoe away

[SoulHunter2008]

3 hours ago, Fast_98 said:

I don't mind them reworking Ash 4 to be a stance but I just hope that they won't take all of his aoe away

4 as a stance on Ash would be a crime and taking away his uniqueness.

[LunarEdge7]

8 hours ago, CrudShuzKong said:

And then you find out that glitchstorm failed to makr that one bombard in teh room that is currently unloading his mag at you :)

And I am smart enough to not touch enemies lit up red, what i dont like is, that i have to break my combo because ash decides he wants part of the cake as well and happened to get LoS on the Wave I happen to work on just now. I dont mind  good uses of bladestorm, when Ash spots a group containing some energy leeches and whatnot and takes them out in one swoop. What I do mind is when the Ash just stands on his Vantage point waiting for anything to come into LoS just so he can 4 the heck out of tehm and his teammates get to roll the dice if they get the 33% cahnce that its their group of enemies he "helps" with.

I just flail around like a monkey. Yeah I do that when the bombard situation happens.. and then Ash uses 3 and finisher on it. I guess now Ash's 4 is something that you've to get permission from squad members to use now, just like Limbo. Like some kind of Shinigami Soul Reaper's limiters or whatever. 

Otherwise your second paragraph's situation would happen..

[AKKILLA]

4 hours ago, SoulHunter2008 said:

4 as a stance on Ash would be a crime and taking away his uniqueness.

No it wont be a Crime at all, come on lets not be naive to Facts

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ash

• Trivia

• Ash was the FIRST Warframe that had innate PHYSICAL WEAPONS associated with his frame, in this case his HIDDEN BLADES he uses in his BLADE STORM ability. The second frame with this innate physical weapon was Mesa and her Regulator pistols she uses in her Peacemaker ability.                                              

 

The facts are proven and I will defend My idea as I reference it with Wikia Facts and Ash is the First Frame with a weapon built in and that weapon is a Melee weapon soo how is a Blade storm stance wrong? In fact I think a Blade storm stance would be the best way to making Ash interactive and fun. My opinion is backed up by facts however and STRONG facts to back them up, but however doesnt mean My idea will be implemented I just have a solid foundation to My ideas as I use in game mechanics and wikia facts to stand firm in my discussions. 

Knowledge is power and knowing Ash is a melee frame and the first frame with Melee installed is important to the Ash Blade storm stance subject. Heck Quickening functions with Blade storms dps and its a Melee Channeling mod, Bladestorm is not a channeled ability so why does it function for it? Might as well make it a stance  IMO.

 

NOTE: Hidden Blades are Innate Melee weapons and should scale off melee and a Stance is Viable for Blade Storm, embrace a good idea instead of degrading it at first sight because others claim its redundant or too many Stance ulti's. Theres only 3 Stances one more that makes total sense and fixes a bad old ability wouldnt hurt.

Edited March 24, 2016 by AKKILLA