Why do nullifiers still exist?

[Xzorn]

The easiest fix for Nullifiers:

• Enemy no longer removes current buffs when entering it's bubble.
• Enemy no longer deflects bullets. ( though it will still bounce projectiles with low velocity such as Launchers )
• Bubble size is static and does not change.
• Bubble still prevents abilities from penetrating and from being cast within.
• Increase Base HP and Shields of the unit itself.
• Keep shimmering bubble visual as it fairly hinders aimed shot at units protected by it.

With the inclusion of Ancient Healers and larger sized Heavies this will actually create more challenge and reward good aim from players. Even more so it will add value to sharp shot weapons like Bows and Snipers which have steadily lost their value as enemy spawn rates have been increasing. Most importantly it only hinders the abilities and AoE it;s design was intended for.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

The easiest fix for Nullifiers:

• Enemy no longer removes current buffs when entering it's bubble.
• Enemy no longer deflects bullets. ( though it will still bounce projectiles with low velocity such as Launchers )
• Bubble size is static and does not change.
• Bubble still prevents abilities from penetrating and from being cast within.
• Increase Base HP and Shields of the unit itself.
• Keep shimmering bubble visual as it fairly hinders aimed shot at units protected by it.

With the inclusion of Ancient Healers and larger sized Heavies this will actually create more challenge and reward good aim from players. Even more so it will add value to sharp shot weapons like Bows and Snipers which have steadily lost their value as enemy spawn rates have been increasing. Most importantly it only hinders the abilities and AoE it;s design was intended for.

Looks good. I'd be happy to see that.

[TheBrsrkr]

7 hours ago, magusat999 said:

There is no such thing as "Ability and weapon spam". You cannot survive without abilities and you cannot eliminate the enemies without weapons. Your just parroting some propaganda statement that started floating around a while back about a specific issue, applying it in a place it does not apply. That statement means nothing in a game that is built around using abilities and weapons. It's like asking people to come to a birthday party and then telling them they cannot eat the cake - makes no sense. 

Sigh....... This again. 

Tell me exactly where a nullifier prevents you from using your weapon. It reduces your effectiveness, sure. It renders all abilities useless inside the bubble. But is the bubble always up? Are they a fodder unit like the Crewman? Is it particularly sturdy? No. 

I don't think you understand what spamming is. Spamming isn't using. If you use something, let's say Miasma for the sake of it, you're using it because it's appropriate for the situation. You're surrounded? Things getting too heated? Trying to save a teammate or clear out a trouble spot? Miasma can deal with these in relatively short order. But you wouldn't use it in every situation (though it would work)  because usually something as powerful as that would be unfeasible  due to resource costs or something. However, our broken energy systems and insane damage calculations mean that you can use it everywhere, ever, eclipsing every other tactic and ability because it's just so powerful. Using Miasma to clear some mobs to get to your teammates is not the same thing as using Miasma to kill mobs for faster drops.  That's where spamming comes in. If you think spamming is the definition of gameplay, I weep for the current state of Warframe. 

8 hours ago, magusat999 said:

. You don't like weapons and abilities - play Street Fighter... oh that's right, they have abilities too so I guess Street Fighter would annoy you also... I'll never get why people play a game that features certain aspects, and call those features "spamming" because people want to use them. 

Street Fighter has its own kind of spamming, such as the Hadouken/light low kick/Shoryuken combo that forces the AI to act in certain ways and is impenetrable to players who are not experienced enough to deal with it. You're somehow conflating the issue with using the Hadouken 50 times in a row  to using it at all. That isn't a fair or accurate definition of spam. I don't care if you want to use the Hadouken 50 times in a row to win a match, because the variety of other attacks, combos and specials that you aren't using are the ones that aren't accounted for when they put in an enemy that's now immune to specials. Why immune and not resistant? Because it doesn't matter how resistant it is if you can keep doing it forever. 

8 hours ago, magusat999 said:

 Instead of condemning the player for using abilities, how about asking DE to build a game that challenges people WITH RESPECT to those abilities? Taking them away is a lazy, cheap tactic and shows a lack of creativity. There are many great ideas right here in the forums, from people who have no idea how to make a game that is better than introducing mobs of enemies that wipe away what makes Warframe... Warframe. Surely, DE can come up with a better way than to melt away all the fun with this cavalcade of fun blockers.

What exactly do you expect besides taking them away? Of course it's a lazy, cheap tactic! Do you know why? Because spamming is a lazy, cheap tactic! The not lazy, expansive method of fixing this is to rework every single frame and weapon to fit the framework of a game that doesn't allow effective spamming. This is currently in progress with the slew of reworks we have gotten and those still to come. What do you think would happen, they would just let you spam away all year while they rework them?  You think being able to lock down the entire map for the better part of an hour risk free is the intended model DE wants to follow? You think DE wants to read through these forums where everyone thinks a nerf is  2 steps down from a third world war and in the same breath complain about how unchallenging and empty the game is?  You think a gun should be able to kill literally everything in one shot for half an hour and about 5 shots afterwards  while you still have the ability to shut down the entire map near endlessly? If you want obscene, excessive amounts of power then you better be prepared for obscene, excessive amounts of cheese in return. Because that's what it's going to take to matter to you. 

8 hours ago, magusat999 said:

. where in there does it discourage players from using abilities and weapons - because I cant find it. Seems like quite liberal usage to me...

Where in there do you see Excalibur spamming Radial Javelin? Where in there do you see 15 enemies die in one shot from a Soma Prime? Where in there do you see the 4 Tenno standing in one spot casting their abilities again and again? That's not what I see. I see them running around, fighting with enemies, using abilities on the move, legitimate gunplay and skills. I don't see 4 minutes of Ultimate casting and walking to the next room. So where in there do you see them spamming abilities? 

 

 

[Decembrist.exe]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

They're in the game and have increased in spawn rate since U18 to hinder and create unfair circumstances for inexperienced players. They do not present a challenge in any way for those who know how to deal with them. How do you deal with them? Well it's simple, very simple in fact. You play as derpy as possible.

They do not force me to think twice, evaluate routes or options, they simply take away options just like many things added in the past. I do not hate a challenge, but this game does not reward you for playing against that challenge, it rewards you for finding to path of least resistance.

There will always be cheese. They can go back and edit 15 or so frames and even more mods/weapons, or they can fix this enemy to at least allow more options of play. Which would you take?

I'm sure DE thought Shock Eximus served a purpose as well, which is why they came back for round two, yet they're now changed. People make mistakes, it's up to the community to bring unforeseen problems to light.

 

 

1. Inexperienced players have a hard time against nulifiers. Get experienced then? Why remove completely? Game is already absolutely casual.

2. Take away your options,( not all)  thats the whole point.

3. They feel rewarding to me and other players as well ,they make me change routes, or rush in to attack depending on the situation, and think tactically ( at high level)

Shock eximus units had no way to counter their proc other than kill them before they get close. Nulifiers are nothing like that.

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by JinxedWolf

[Xzorn]

3 minutes ago, JinxedWolf said:

1. Inexperienced players have a hard time against nulifiers. Get experienced then? Why remove completely? Game is already absolutely casual.

2. Take away your options,( not all)  thats the whole point.

3. They feel rewarding to me and other players as well ,they make me change routes, or rush in to attack depending on the situation, and think tactically

Shock eximus units had no way to counter their proc other than kill them before they get close. Nulifiers are nothing like that.

 

1. Inexperience in terms of knowing that you have a limited selection of effective weapons for them and knowing which to use. Once you know there's no "challenge". I also don't want Nullifiers removed, I want their design changed to not cause even more weapon imbalance.

2. They take away the wrong options, that is the problem.

3. Really? Cuz they just make me use nothing but Ignis for content under lvl 60 and derpy crap like Naramon Excalibur for higher. He already hits hard as a Tonkor and he's unhindered by Nullifiers, why not? There are other derpy boring setups solo and group. You don't have to change your play style, Nullifiers simply favor some setups far more than others. Even then any CC frame with eyes and Twin Grakatas is for the most part unhindered by them. So they're crappy at their job and cause a whole mess  of other problems.

4. Shock Eximus destroyed melee based frames, they took an option away, that was their biggest sin. 

[magusat999]

38 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Sigh....... This again. 

Tell me exactly where a nullifier prevents you from using your weapon. It reduces your effectiveness, sure. It renders all abilities useless inside the bubble. But is the bubble always up? Are they a fodder unit like the Crewman? Is it particularly sturdy? No. 

I don't think you understand what spamming is. Spamming isn't using. If you use something, let's say Miasma for the sake of it, you're using it because it's appropriate for the situation. You're surrounded? Things getting too heated? Trying to save a teammate or clear out a trouble spot? Miasma can deal with these in relatively short order. But you wouldn't use it in every situation (though it would work)  because usually something as powerful as that would be unfeasible  due to resource costs or something. However, our broken energy systems and insane damage calculations mean that you can use it everywhere, ever, eclipsing every other tactic and ability because it's just so powerful. Using Miasma to clear some mobs to get to your teammates is not the same thing as using Miasma to kill mobs for faster drops.  That's where spamming comes in. If you think spamming is the definition of gameplay, I weep for the current state of Warframe. 

Street Fighter has its own kind of spamming, such as the Hadouken/light low kick/Shoryuken combo that forces the AI to act in certain ways and is impenetrable to players who are not experienced enough to deal with it. You're somehow conflating the issue with using the Hadouken 50 times in a row  to using it at all. That isn't a fair or accurate definition of spam. I don't care if you want to use the Hadouken 50 times in a row to win a match, because the variety of other attacks, combos and specials that you aren't using are the ones that aren't accounted for when they put in an enemy that's now immune to specials. Why immune and not resistant? Because it doesn't matter how resistant it is if you can keep doing it forever. 

What exactly do you expect besides taking them away? Of course it's a lazy, cheap tactic! Do you know why? Because spamming is a lazy, cheap tactic! The not lazy, expansive method of fixing this is to rework every single frame and weapon to fit the framework of a game that doesn't allow effective spamming. This is currently in progress with the slew of reworks we have gotten and those still to come. What do you think would happen, they would just let you spam away all year while they rework them?  You think being able to lock down the entire map for the better part of an hour risk free is the intended model DE wants to follow? You think DE wants to read through these forums where everyone thinks a nerf is  2 steps down from a third world war and in the same breath complain about how unchallenging and empty the game is?  You think a gun should be able to kill literally everything in one shot for half an hour and about 5 shots afterwards  while you still have the ability to shut down the entire map near endlessly? If you want obscene, excessive amounts of power then you better be prepared for obscene, excessive amounts of cheese in return. Because that's what it's going to take to matter to you. 

Where in there do you see Excalibur spamming Radial Javelin? Where in there do you see 15 enemies die in one shot from a Soma Prime? Where in there do you see the 4 Tenno standing in one spot casting their abilities again and again? That's not what I see. I see them running around, fighting with enemies, using abilities on the move, legitimate gunplay and skills. I don't see 4 minutes of Ultimate casting and walking to the next room. So where in there do you see them spamming abilities? 

 

 

Ugh... this again.

Oh, I understand what you think spamming is - and again, there is no such thing as spamming. Who says you get to define what is legitimate play? Using an ability over and over again isn't "spamming", it is using the ability. That's why people pick that frame to play with. Not because the frame is "cute", or has big strong knuckles...

Using your Warframe's abilities is not lazy and cheap. it is part of the game. Get over it. There is always Call of Duty if you don't like abilities. I do think you should be able to lock down an entire map. If you invested the time and plat into leveling up you Warframe and weapons, then yes, you should eventually have that kind of skill. That's called progression, and every GOOD game has progression and reward for coming up another level. The design of this game punishes you for progressing and that is frustrating. There SHOULD BE people who can lock down an entire map, one shot every thing - all those things you mentioned because there SHOULD BE people who have attained such a level of skill. And if those people are bored after getting to the top of the mountain - they don't get to change the game to suit their elite skill set - but DE should look into providing them a challenge all of their own (like Sorties and Raids). We don't need a Mercury with 100+ level areas just because you made it to Pro-ville and are now bored. (Although DE COULD make tiered levels for each area and that would serve the purpose... level 150 Appollodorus... hmmm.). BTW - we HAVE obscene amounts of power - that's what Warframe is all about, and always has been. The cheesey enemies trying to wipe it away came later. It does not have to be "balanced" (or rather imbalanced) with cheese that takes the fun away. It can be balanced in other ways - can you imagine that or are you just here to keep arguing? There CAN BE CHALLENGE without gimping our abilities. It isn't impossible, I promise you. Do you think that is impossible? Sure sounds that way - or you just like to argue.

i don't know what trailer you watched but the trailer I saw every one of them used their abilities. And let me ask you something - you didn't see them casting their abilities over and over again - why? BECAUSE IT IS A TRAILER -  not enough time to show all that. Did you think it was actual gameplay? No it wasn't. It is a commercial. Did you ever see a breakfast commercial where a kid consumes bowl after bowl of cereal? They are showcasing what they think will attract players - using powers. The Warframes used abilities and weapons - the things you despise - to defend against the enemy. Every last Warframe in the trailer used an ability - because nobody is going to play the game based on a trailer showing some dippity-doo da puttering around like they are scared their reputation will get tarnished if they use an ability. So no, you didn't see "4 minutes of Ultimate casting", the trailer wasn't even 4 minutes (or wasn't long enough to show that AND the purpose of a trailer...). What you saw was the best features of Warframe - and each one of those present used an ability. BTW - like I mentioned there are many trailers of Warframe created by DE - this is but one of them, I guess you overlooked that in your fervor to try to be right. If you want to see "ability spamming", go look at some of the gameplay ones they did - I'm sure your savvy enough to find them.

And be truthful, don't just try to win an argument - you saw the Warframes TRY to fight. It wasn't working so they busted out their abilities. The commercial is telling you right there what a Warframe is for. Normal fighting doesn't cut it against an enemy that doesn't square up in a ring with you. If they could fight like you describe they wouldn't need Warframes. The trailer shows you that there is a hero with superpowers who has been created to defend against an overwhelming enemy - WITH abilities and advanced weaponry. If you could just poke 'em in the eye like Moe of the Three Stooges - you wouldn't need a Warframe...

[Maicael]

10 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

1. Inexperience in terms of knowing that you have a limited selection of effective weapons for them and knowing which to use. Once you know there's no "challenge". I also don't want Nullifiers removed, I want their design changed to not cause even more weapon imbalance.

2. They take away the wrong options, that is the problem.

3. Really? Cuz they just make me use nothing but Ignis for content under lvl 60 and derpy crap like Naramon Excalibur for higher. He already hits hard as a Tonkor and he's unhindered by Nullifiers, why not? There are other derpy boring setups solo and group. You don't have to change your play style, Nullifiers simply favor some setups far more than others. Even then any CC frame with eyes and Twin Grakatas is for the most part unhindered by them. So they're crappy at their job and cause a whole mess  of other problems.

4. Shock Eximus destroyed melee based frames, they took an option away, that was their biggest sin. 

You just have to take advantage of what your weapon can do based on the rules provided. High ROF can knock the bubbles down and expose them. High damage weapons can be used inside the bubble to kill them instantly. You play to the strengths of what you have. Just because 1 enemy type has a way to counter what you like doing safely doesn't mean you have to change anything other than how you approach it.

Not liking whatever options they appear to take away doesn't make them wrong. (What do you see them taking away, and what alternatives do you suggest? Would they still fulfill the role of effectively protecting allies from being disabled/killed as soon as they're within 30-50m?)

I use almost nothing but Rakta Cernos regardless of faction, mission type, or level. It wasn't Nullifiers or Comba/Scrambus that were giving me trouble in a solo Corpus Survival. Sure the CC frame with Twin Grakatas can deal with them pretty easily, but using that as an example is like saying to use Mag against Corpus or Blind Mirage against Grineer. It's an effective method against them, but it's not the only method. Whether or not players choose to use another method is up to them.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, Maicael said:

use almost nothing but Rakta Cernos regardless of faction, mission type, or level. It wasn't Nullifiers or Comba/Scrambus that were giving me trouble in a solo Corpus Survival.

So...what is giving you trouble then?

[Maicael]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

So...what is giving you trouble then?

Life support drops

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Maicael said:

Life support drops

Then it would be maybe, but only MAYBE be beneficial to use more than only a bow?

[Decembrist.exe]

44 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

1. Inexperience in terms of knowing that you have a limited selection of effective weapons for them and knowing which to use. Once you know there's no "challenge". I also don't want Nullifiers removed, I want their design changed to not cause even more weapon imbalance.

2. They take away the wrong options, that is the problem.

3. Really? Cuz they just make me use nothing but Ignis for content under lvl 60 and derpy crap like Naramon Excalibur for higher. He already hits hard as a Tonkor and he's unhindered by Nullifiers, why not? There are other derpy boring setups solo and group. You don't have to change your play style, Nullifiers simply favor some setups far more than others. Even then any CC frame with eyes and Twin Grakatas is for the most part unhindered by them. So they're crappy at their job and cause a whole mess  of other problems.

4. Shock Eximus destroyed melee based frames, they took an option away, that was their biggest sin. 

1. Wat. Some weapons should be more effective against certain enemies so what. 

2. Wrong options?? What are the right options? Those that dont hinder your killing spree?

3. Why dont you drop that ignis and naramon excal and all the other cheese and deal with them with your favourite frame and weapon not a "nulifier" weapon? Id like to see what you would do and how your playstyle would change then, especially at high level. Of course some setups are more effective, that doesnt mean you're forced to use them....unless you cant deal with them in any other way due to lack of skill or unwillingness to put more effort.

4. Yes, because you couldnt counter that. You CAN counter nulifiers in may ways. 
 

[Maicael]

11 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Then it would be maybe, but only MAYBE be beneficial to use more than only a bow?

Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear. I used my primary(Rakta Cernos), secondary(Sonicor), melee(Sheev) and various abilities when the situation called for each. When enemies run at you single file though getting 5-15 kills with a single arrow is pretty effective and fun to watch as they fly back. Maybe could've gone with Soma Prime or Tonkor instead. Still, 40 minutes on any single mission is plenty for me to see the reward rotations and want to go do a different mission. Doing the same repetitive thing for too long is why some players get burnt out and I've played Warframe almost exclusively for 3 years on a regular or daily basis.

[IceColdHawk]

15 minutes ago, JinxedWolf said:

2. Wrong options?? What are the right options? Those that dont hinder your killing spree?

Nullifiers were added to counter ability overpowering. Instead they counter almost everything EXCEPT that what it should counter. I can easily cheese them with mirage or mag. But do i want to? No.

15 minutes ago, JinxedWolf said:

3. Why dont you drop that ignis and naramon excal and all the other cheese and deal with them with your favourite frame and weapon not a "nulifier" weapon? Id like to see what you would do and how your playstyle would change then, especially at high level. Of course some setups are more effective, that doesnt mean you're forced to use them....unless you cant deal with them in any other way due to lack of skill or unwillingness to put more effort.

Cuz in most situations it's simply not possible when they overwhelm you and you can't stop them fast enough. Be it a sapping mine in it or any techs that shrek you when entering. Not to mention it's fast bubble shield recharge rate when you manage to shoot it down and perhaps reload after that. Not to mention how hard launchers and slow weapons suck against them.

Also i'd like to mention that some people play corpus sorties in order to get a better perspective from nullifiers. We don't play venus or neptune exclusively.

3 minutes ago, Maicael said:

Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear. I used my primary(Rakta Cernos), secondary(Sonicor), melee(Sheev) and various abilities when the situation called for each. When enemies run at you single file though getting 5-15 kills with a single arrow is pretty effective and fun to watch as they fly back. Maybe could've gone with Soma Prime or Tonkor instead. Still, 40 minutes on any single mission is plenty for me to see the reward rotations and want to go do a different mission. Doing the same repetitive thing for too long is why some players get burnt out and I've played Warframe almost exclusively for 3 years on a regular or daily basis.

Survival 40 mins? Sorry man but that's low level + you can simply ignore nullifiers in that mode. On sortie interception, defense and excavation it looks different.

Edited March 28, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[TheGreatBB]

18 minutes ago, JinxedWolf said:

1. Wat. Some weapons should be more effective against certain enemies so what. 

2. Wrong options?? What are the right options? Those that dont hinder your killing spree?

3. Why dont you drop that ignis and naramon excal and all the other cheese and deal with them with your favourite frame and weapon not a "nulifier" weapon? Id like to see what you would do and how your playstyle would change then, especially at high level. Of course some setups are more effective, that doesnt mean you're forced to use them....unless you cant deal with them in any other way due to lack of skill or unwillingness to put more effort.

4. Yes, because you couldnt counter that. You CAN counter nulifiers in may ways. 
 

There is only 2 ways to take down a nullifier. Either:
a) Get inside the bubble and melee Tonkor weapon kill them or
b) Use a rapid fire gun to take down the bubble to kill them with whatever you want. (Example, fire quake.)

What other methods can you think of that doesn't fall into those two?

Corpus are the most annoying faction in the game. To the extent, I'll avoid them at all costs. From Nullifiers to Zappers to Bursas, I just don't think they designing them very well. They are just making it opposite of what they are supposed to be. Example would be Bursas. They have very little shields and high armor? Why? Because they were countering shield polarize. But now we find out they are changing shield polarize to work with armor... What kind of enemy will we get now. Lol

In any regards, nullifiers should have been replaced by combas or have the bubble weapon hit taken down by health not hits. IE, one big hit takes it down.

Edited March 28, 2016 by TheGreatBB

[Maicael]

9 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

-snip-

Survival 40 mins? Sorry man but that's low level + you can simply ignore nullifiers in that mode. On interception, defense and excavation it looks different.

There wasn't a Corpus Sortie yesterday, so had to go with something else. Got everything I want from this season anyway. Lvl 76 is still within the realm of Sortie level. Sure it's not like level 150+ after 2 hours in, but if that's what you're looking at being able to waltz through, then DE really needs to up the difficulty beyond Nullifiers.
Edit: Maybe start having Hyena packs and Lynx start spawning at some point. That could be interesting.

Don't really see what Interception/Defense/Excavation has to do with it. I still handle the enemy the same way I would anywhere else since their AI doesn't change and they don't gain any new mechanics.. Only difference is what they're trying to target.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Maicael

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, Maicael said:

There wasn't a Corpus Sortie yesterday, so had to go with something else. Got everything I want from this season anyway. Lvl 76 is still within the realm of Sortie level. Sure it's not like level 150+ after 2 hours in, but if that's what you're looking at being able to waltz through, then DE really needs to up the difficulty beyond Nullifiers.

Corpus sortie appear to happen every 2nd day. Just like today once again. And the fact that sniper only sortie is a thing, only shows them even more how broken they are. No i'm not talking about lvl 150. That's exaggeration. Lvl 70 is enough for techs to shred any frame.

[CrazyCatLad]

On 3/25/2016 at 0:39 PM, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

I seriously wanted to say that Banshee or mag and the other frames that are capable of doing some CC/area knockdown abilities is good on solo-ing high level corpus/void missions...

But guess what? Every time i wanted to bring a banshee with a bow out and do some high level corpus/void missions, Nullifiers just made me change my mind.

Why are they even existed?

Was it to prevent AOE CC ability spam or immortality ability abuse and promotes gunplay? THEN DON'T BLOCK BULLETS! IT IS STRESS INDUCING WHEN YOU ARE USING SLOW FIRE RATE WEAPONS!

or was it to promote sword play? then F**K me, player might lose their combo counter that ensures that they can still can do a considerable damage on the enemies after a long run when they are hitting the bubble using their melee weapons. AND NOT TO MENTION, there is only few frames that are viable for swordplay that can actually soak up some damage and WHICH they need to cast their abilities to prevent them from dying while reaching the enemies with their melee. 

In the end, i think nullifiers should get a rework, like may be changing their ability nullifying bubble into a 10 energy/ sec energy draining bubble that still blocks bullets but doesn't cancel your ability, OR make it remains the same(blocks bullets and prevent ability casting inside the bubble) but won't remove the ability effect that are already cast upon the players, OR make the shield smaller and looks like a 360 degree round barricade that has no rooftop that allows player to shoot the nullifiers directly if they are in the higher position.

AND OF COURSE! IM READY FOR THOSE TOXIC WHITE KNIGHT that will just come here and protect this lazy design saying it is okay and it provides challenge. 

 

 

Agree, bubbles should not block bullets. Have thought this since they released. Mitigation of bullet damage I guess is okay at higher levels. Such bubbles could be different colors.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Lanieu

[IfritKajiTora]

I'm fine with Nultifiers, but why there are SO MANY OF THEM!!! DE please! make it stop T.T

Nultifiers should be the same rare as bursas, and just make them harder to kill, more health, shield and maybe little more damage.

We don't need 20 nultifiers in the same time, its breaking the game, seriously. I can't sometimes even do anything.

[Xzorn]

43 minutes ago, Maicael said:

You just have to take advantage of what your weapon can do based on the rules provided. High ROF can knock the bubbles down and expose them. High damage weapons can be used inside the bubble to kill them instantly. You play to the strengths of what you have. Just because 1 enemy type has a way to counter what you like doing safely doesn't mean you have to change anything other than how you approach it.

Not liking whatever options they appear to take away doesn't make them wrong. (What do you see them taking away, and what alternatives do you suggest? Would they still fulfill the role of effectively protecting allies from being disabled/killed as soon as they're within 30-50m?)

I use almost nothing but Rakta Cernos regardless of faction, mission type, or level. It wasn't Nullifiers or Comba/Scrambus that were giving me trouble in a solo Corpus Survival. Sure the CC frame with Twin Grakatas can deal with them pretty easily, but using that as an example is like saying to use Mag against Corpus or Blind Mirage against Grineer. It's an effective method against them, but it's not the only method. Whether or not players choose to use another method is up to them.

 

From where I often play (once or twice a week) going inside a Nullifier bubble is not an option, even when it is I don't usually take it, Frames like Chroma might not die at lower level but you loose a ton of damage until your buff stacks up and you might not get the armor buff back till Guardian procs.

I did suggest my alternative idea on how they should be designed a little above on this page. I don't mind their purpose but I have a serious problem with diminishing the value of weapons that already have lower value due to sheer numbers. On top of this they're usually skillful, every shot counts type weapons which should never be diminished in any game ever.

The CC frame with Twin Grakatas example works for all factions and all mission types. Twin Grakatas, Soma, Prisma Grakata, majority of top tier weapons are already good against them. Choosing another method is the problem, If I were a Bow player (I'm not) I would have a serious problem with Nullifiers as they counter my play style completely, using a Bow really isn't an option for me considering the value of other high RoF options.

 

32 minutes ago, JinxedWolf said:

1. Wat. Some weapons should be more effective against certain enemies so what. 

2. Wrong options?? What are the right options? Those that dont hinder your killing spree?

3. Why dont you drop that ignis and naramon excal and all the other cheese and deal with them with your favourite frame and weapon not a "nulifier" weapon? Id like to see what you would do and how your playstyle would change then, especially at high level. Of course some setups are more effective, that doesnt mean you're forced to use them....unless you cant deal with them in any other way due to lack of skill or unwillingness to put more effort.

4. Yes, because you couldnt counter that. You CAN counter nulifiers in may ways. 
 

1. Skillful every shot counts weapons should never be diminished in value, ever.

2. The only options are high RoF and run in. The second option is only viable under lvl 80.

3. I don't have a favorite frame, I've played too many MMOs to pick a favorite and suffer through FoM and other bad design. For me, Warframes are just tools for a job. I do however have favorite weapons, most of which I hardly use because of the game's design around hordes of enemies, including Nullifiers. But you are indeed forced to use high RoF weapons after a certain level or you will die.

4. Not many, just two, that I listed on #2. One could argue a melee frame only had to swap to a gun for half a second for Shock Eximus. Just as I argue I have no counter if I play with a low RoF weapon. Some frames can do fine with 0 energy, others are completely crippled. Same with Nullifiers and weapons.

[(PSN)Mazda_07_]

1 hour ago, Maicael said:

There wasn't a Corpus Sortie yesterday, so had to go with something else. Got everything I want from this season anyway. Lvl 76 is still within the realm of Sortie level. Sure it's not like level 150+ after 2 hours in, but if that's what you're looking at being able to waltz through, then DE really needs to up the difficulty beyond Nullifiers.
Edit: Maybe start having Hyena packs and Lynx start spawning at some point. That could be interesting.

Don't really see what Interception/Defense/Excavation has to do with it. I still handle the enemy the same way I would anywhere else since their AI doesn't change and they don't gain any new mechanics.. Only difference is what they're trying to target.

Oh dude ..what a great idea ! 

[Troll_Logic]

4 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

We don't need 20 nultifiers in the same time, its breaking the game, seriously. I can't sometimes even do anything.

That's the point.  To put a substantial challenge.  I was on Triton was around excavator 20 or so and the excavator was in the area that's down in a valley with two spots up top.  We were at the bottom spot and it looked like 30 enemies were coming down the mountain protected by at least a dozen overlapping nullifiers.  Makes a group pay attention.

[Troll_Logic]

4 hours ago, Lanieu said:

Agree, bubbles should not block bullets. Have thought this since they released. Mitigation of bullet damage I guess is okay at higher levels. Such bubbles could be different colors.

I refer you to this post https://forums.warframe.com/topic/630101-why-are-nullifiers-still-exist/?page=5#comment-7060672

It makes perfect sense that the Corpus would add a forcefield to the nullifiers as protection. 

[Quovander]

The only problem I have with Nullifiers is that the fields are unreasonably strong against weapons that should be able to destroy it in fewer shots (ie, Shotguns, Bows, Snipers and heavy weapons like the Opticor and the Ogris). Those fields shouldn't be able to go through walls/doors/windows either.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Bro_Z

[CrazyCatLad]

11 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I refer you to this post https://forums.warframe.com/topic/630101-why-are-nullifiers-still-exist/?page=5#comment-7060672

It makes perfect sense that the Corpus would add a forcefield to the nullifiers as protection. 

Corpus already have their personal shields.

 

The only problem I have with Nullifiers is that the fields are unreasonably strong against weapons that should be able to destroy it in fewer shots (ie, Shotguns, Bows, Snipers and heavy weapons like the Opticor and the Ogris). Those fields shouldn't be able to go through walls/doors/windows either.

 

And yes, this has been an issue for too long now. Two bow shots, two sniper shots, two heavy weapons should be able to take the bubble down.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Lanieu

[magusat999]

I was just thinking about what the core of this problem (for some people is) and what really makes this an issue. Perhaps it's the fact that enemies and more importantly their weaponry, level up endlessly - and our Warframes do not. Enemies at our level up to even twice our level do not pose much of as threat - it is when we are facing enemies 3 or 4 times our level that this really becomes an issue. Notice how the game balance changes once you get in the higher level content areas? When you first started Warframe you were having a different type of felling as you tromped through, opening up the planets. Then you started dipping into the Void, your first taste of higher level play - then you went for higher and higher levels - which feel much different than when you were just starting out - much more tense, more strategy - more danger. At the same time you noticed you don't feel as rewarded... perhaps even a little jaded - but that's beside the point. 

The you notice the enemies levels going up and up. THIS is the real reason it feels "challenging" - because you are capped at a certain level and the enemy continues to grow in power and strength until they totally outclass you. Their weaponry also grows (nobody seems to think about that) that is why they can one-shot you at higher levels. Ever notice if you take a level zero weapon to a low level mission, even though the enemies are level 10 that weapon isn't one shotting them? Put that same weapon in an enemy who is level 150 and suddelny it can kill everything... Your Warframe's level doesn't raise up the level of YOUR weapons, but they seem to raise up the level of the ENEMIES weaponry. Otherwise why would they suddenly be able to one shot you just because they are level 150? Evidently their weapons are 150 also!.

And that is where the real pressure of high level play really comes from. it isn't really Nullifiers and how long it takes to deal with them - it is the enemy having ridiculous weaponry that has scaled up with them to insane-o levels. The real danger is getting hit by one of these over-powered weapons WHILE your dealing with the Nullifier, because otherwise we could take a few shots or even be vulnerable for a second. I believe that this is what needs to change - either allow us and our weapons to infinitely level, up - just like the enemies - or cap the upward scaling of the enemies weaponry - and then who cares about a Nulifier after balancing that aspect?

[There are other circumstances where level doesn't matter, like Corpus spy missions with a stealth build frame, and situations where your Warframe is stripped to the bone and then attacked with what otherwise wouldn't concern you, this isn't a catch-all but it can catch a lot...]