Saryn's DPS

[WhoCanKillMe]

I don't own this video but I would like to show this to you guys:

Since the rework of saryn made it didn't so 'brainless', not only press 4 to win, but the damage she can deal now is much lower to fit the need in a game, as you can see, it deals so few damage that even can't slowly evaporate a 80lv heavy gunner, I know that put some different mod like blind rage can make higher damage, but the reworked saryn is a waframe that  need duration, damage and also range, which mean she also can't put 4k mod to loss one of them......

Also, no one think that excel is being so overpower that his ult have low cost, high range, high damage and even auto-block at same time? I know that making a warframe perfect is impossible, but please help saryn get out of a vase......

Edited April 4, 2016 by WhoCanKillMe
wrong spelling

[RealPandemonium]

There are already numerous threads about this video.  Discuss it there.

[Suira]

How Does Spore work?

To quote the wiki:
Saryn infects a target within 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 meters with 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 virulent spores. Each spore inflicts 4 / 10 / 14 / 20  Viral damage per second over a duration of 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 seconds. If a spore is popped, 25  Viral damage with a 100% status chance is dealt within 8 / 10 / 12 / 16 meters, and 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 spores are transmitted to each affected enemy.

If an infected enemy is being damaged by a  Toxin proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread Toxin damage to surrounding enemies. The spore will have 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin proc added to its burst damage as  Viral damage with a 100% status chance for  Viral and  Toxineffects.

You will get more damage out of Saryn by spreading a lot of Toxic procs onto enemies and popping their bubbles to inflict the viral status proc.
The best way to do this is by using concealed explosives on a status build Hikou Prime geared towards gas. When the gas procs every enemy will get a toxic proc. The math break down to this:

Number of enemies= X
Status chance of Hikou Prime= 67.4% = Y
Concealed Explosives chance= 80% = Z
Fire Rate of Hikou Prime= 9.33 = W

In one second you get:
Y x W= 6.28842
Z x W= 7.464
Now we are going to use the lowest number and round down for the most realistic number to find or spread, which is 6.
Spread= 6

Each Concealed Explosive proc pops 9 spores per target so we are going to times by 9.
6 x 9= 54
Now we factor in the amount of enemies affected by this, which is 10 for this example.
X x 54= 540

Each tick of toxic dot generally ticks for 5 and lasts for 10 seconds with Saryns passive.
So 540 x 5 x 10= 27,000

So you can do 27,000 damage in 1 second on a mob of 10 without factoring in damage for the Hikou Prime or the damage from spore. BTW, every enemy within 40 meters takes this damage.
So what happens when you attack these enemies for 10 seconds (the point where toxic procs fall off)?
27,000 x 10= 270,000

Now factor in the fact that you inflict a viral proc cutting the enemies health in HALF!

Now you can use other weapons other than the Hikou Prime, I just used it for this example.
Also, it is possible to pop every spore and then get no effect from them what so ever.
So I suggest you don't shoot one group of enemies for to long.

 

 

 

So yeah, anyone who says Saryn doesn't do good dps is an idiot.
Also, Brozime's build is all kinds of wrong. It is so wrong it's not even funny. He should take that video down because he is misleading people.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Suira

[Gurpgork]

Does Brozime also have a video where he tries to prove that Excalibur sucks by comparing a terribly built Radial Javelin to Artemis Bow? Because that's essentially what he's doing with this clip here.

[CandyDragon]

Brozime has a habit of going "I don't understand this, so I built it wrong and here are my thoughts why the frame is bad at everything" 

[Tesseract7777]

Didn't get to watching the video yet, but let me guess, he's trying to compare post rework Miasma spam to Exalted Blade, and wondering why Saryn is doing a lot less damage? 

[Gurpgork]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Didn't get to watching the video yet, but let me guess, he's trying to compare post rework Miasma spam to Exalted Blade, and wondering why Saryn is doing a lot less damage? 

Not only that, but his Saryn build is complete crap. He has 91% range, which is probably all you need to know.

[Tesseract7777]

5 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Not only that, but his Saryn build is complete crap. He has 91% range, which is probably all you need to know.

 

Out of curiosity I skipped through to see what the Saryn build was. 

 

WTF........... 

[marshmellory]

stop with that video............

its like comparing a porsche and a lamborghini, except the lamborghini doesn't have any wheels on it's rims and instead of an engine, it has pedals like a bike.

[IceColdHawk]

I love how people didn't get the build or didn't even proceed to listen what he says.

He didn't say: "Look, this is the best build and it deals no dmg." He said: "I've taken this build with maximized damage only to show how it deals no damage. Of course you would never use that build in normal gameplay!"

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

 

Out of curiosity I skipped through to see what the Saryn build was. 

 

WTF........... 

No tesseract no, he clearly said nobody uses that in normal gameplay. It was only to show the damage of spore + viral and toxin proc + miasma with as much power str as possible. In normal gameplay you would even have less damage packed in.

Still would have preferred if he at least fought against more than only 1 enemy.

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I love how people didn't get the build or didn't even proceed to listen what he says.

He didn't say: "Look, this is the best build and it deals no dmg." He said: "I've taken this build with maximized damage only to show how it deals no damage. Of course you would never use that build in normal gameplay!"

No tesseract no, he clearly said nobody uses that in normal gameplay. It was only to show the damage of spore + viral and toxin proc + miasma with as much power str as possible. In normal gameplay you would even have less damage packed in.

Still would have preferred if he at least fought against more than only 1 enemy.

 

Well I can't watch the video cause I can't use sound where I am... I was watching without noise and skipped to see the build itself that people were talking about. <_< 

 

I guess that's what happens when you do that lol. 

 

Still the whole premise of the video misses the point in the first place imo... as I wouldn't say they fulfill the same role in a team. Nor are they meant to. I consider it like comparing Loki and Ash or something, okay, maybe that's a bit farther off a comparison but still. ; P 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[RealPandemonium]

He's comparing a radial nuke/stagger to exalted weapon spam, while also being ignorant of some of the mechanics he's dealing with.  I actually have met Brozime in game before, mostly when he was using pre-rework Saryn to nuke Draco.  I did not find him to be very sophisticated in his understanding of the game in general, and many of his opinions seemed to be based in cargo cultism rather than actual results.

[PrincessPilfer]

9 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I love how people didn't get the build or didn't even proceed to listen what he says.

He didn't say: "Look, this is the best build and it deals no dmg." He said: "I've taken this build with maximized damage only to show how it deals no damage. Of course you would never use that build in normal gameplay!"

No tesseract no, he clearly said nobody uses that in normal gameplay. It was only to show the damage of spore + viral and toxin proc + miasma with as much power str as possible. In normal gameplay you would even have less damage packed in.

Still would have preferred if he at least fought against more than only 1 enemy.

And then used that "evidence" to dismiss Saryns damage as a whole when saryn is all about DoTs and requires multiple targets to get her cross pollinating toxic procs that are her actual damage.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

36 minutes ago, Suira said:

How Does Spore work?

To quote the wiki:
Saryn infects a target within 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 meters with 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 virulent spores. Each spore inflicts 4 / 10 / 14 / 20  Viral damage per second over a duration of 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 seconds. If a spore is popped, 25  Viral damage with a 100% status chance is dealt within 8 / 10 / 12 / 16 meters, and 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 spores are transmitted to each affected enemy.

If an infected enemy is being damaged by a  Toxin proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread Toxin damage to surrounding enemies. The spore will have 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin proc added to its burst damage as  Viral damage with a 100% status chance for  Viral and  Toxineffects.

You will get more damage out of Saryn by spreading a lot of Toxic procs onto enemies and popping their bubbles to inflict the viral status proc.
The best way to do this is by using concealed explosives on a status build Hikou Prime geared towards gas. When the gas procs every enemy will get a toxic proc. The math break down to this:

Number of enemies= X
Status chance of Hikou Prime= 67.4% = Y
Concealed Explosives chance= 80% = Z
Fire Rate of Hikou Prime= 9.33 = W

In one second you get:
Y x W= 6.28842
Z x W= 7.464
Now we are going to use the lowest number and round down for the most realistic number to find or spread, which is 6.
Spread= 6

Each Concealed Explosive proc pops 9 spores per target so we are going to times by 9.
6 x 9= 54
Now we factor in the amount of enemies affected by this, which is 10 for this example.
X x 54= 540

Each tick of toxic dot generally ticks for 5 and lasts for 10 seconds with Saryns passive.
So 540 x 5 x 10= 27,000

So you can do 27,000 damage in 1 second on a mob of 10 without factoring in damage for the Hikou Prime or the damage from spore. BTW, every enemy within 40 meters takes this damage.
So what happens when you attack these enemies for 10 seconds (the point where toxic procs fall off)?
27,000 x 10= 270,000

Now factor in the fact that you inflict a viral proc cutting the enemies health in HALF!

Now you can use other weapons other than the Hikou Prime, I just used it for this example.
Also, it is possible to pop every spore and then get no effect from them what so ever.
So I suggest you don't shoot one group of enemies for to long.

 

 

 

So yeah, anyone who says Saryn doesn't do good dps is an idiot.
Also, Brozime's build is all kinds of wrong. It is so wrong it's not even funny. He should take that video down because he is misleading people.

So the only way to reach high dps is to use only 10/200 or so weapons in the game real balance.

And lets be honest here the only thing that sayrn has going for her is her spores. Her miasma is terrible considering the amout of work you have to put into it to get it to work. I love sayrn but nothing can do her justice here. Nothing works

[PrincessPilfer]

34 minutes ago, Suira said:

 

The best way to do this is by using concealed explosives on a status build Hikou Prime geared towards gas.

Is it? The toxin from regular status is way weaker than the toxic lash proc and because toxic lash applies its bonus to total damage (iirc) things like crits and combo multipliers buff the toxin procs even further. Stick a primed reach on any reasonably powerful melee weapon that can hit multiple targets and you're looking at a lot of toxic damage in short order.

[PrincessPilfer]

3 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So the only way to reach high dps is to use only 10/200 or so weapons in the game real balance.

And lets be honest here the only thing that sayrn has going for her is her spores. Her miasma is terrible considering the amout of work you have to put into it to get it to work. I love sayrn but nothing can do her justice here. Nothing works

Except toxic lash. and molt spreading spores/purging status/diverting fire/regenerating hp. Only 3 of her 4 abilities are incredibly good. Trash frame. Abandon ship.

[Suira]

1 minute ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So the only way to reach high dps is to use only 10/200 or so weapons in the game real balance.

And lets be honest here the only thing that sayrn has going for her is her spores. Her miasma is terrible considering the amout of work you have to put into it to get it to work. I love sayrn but nothing can do her justice here. Nothing works

It's called synergy.
You can also be a melee Saryn with Naramon, pull slightly less numbers but be invis and get infinite energy.
I also like to do the sniper saryn spore build with the gas lanka.

I have no problem with Saryn, idk what your issue is.  I have 88k kills on my Saryn Prime. I can honestly say that a lot of things work and she is a blast to play.
Oh, and Miasma is very easy to use. You see the trick is to constantly be using spore so when you want to ult everything already has spores.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

10 minutes ago, Suira said:

It's called synergy.
You can also be a melee Saryn with Naramon, pull slightly less numbers but be invis and get infinite energy.
I also like to do the sniper saryn spore build with the gas lanka.

I have no problem with Saryn, idk what your issue is.  I have 88k kills on my Saryn Prime. I can honestly say that a lot of things work and she is a blast to play.
Oh, and Miasma is very easy to use. You see the trick is to constantly be using spore so when you want to ult everything already has spores.

While I agree that melee sayrn is good, along with every single frame that uses shadow step. Also toxin, is really only good versus corpus units for other enemy types it is not as optimal.

Miasma fundamentally does not kill as fast compared to other warframe ultimates. Even with the bonuses. The point of sayrn is to debuff the enemies to a point where they are most vulnerable then by casting misama as the final blow.

What we have now is miasma tickling the enemies, not stripping armor at all like it was intended and spore that is only op because you can exploit the hell out of the refresh time of the spores.

Could brozime's video be wrong, sure im sure there are situations where his results don't apply, but based on my time with sayrn, even going so far as to forma her to fully optimize my build simply does not reap the benefits of DPS like Excal, Ivara, Wukong nor does it debuff nor does it CC like Loki, Nova, Mirage, Etc..

You have 88k kills thats great, that means nothing for all that I know you could be playing sayrn on apollodorus or a 2 hour t4 survival and I wouldnt know any better. Regardless, I have yet to see video evidence of someone using the misama with debuffs to at least remove a chunk of a heavy units HP or armor.

Sure she can kill light targets, but so can my mk1 braton. If a debuff / dps frame cant stip / kill enemies with higher armor values then we have a frame that gets thrown into obscurity, and renamed as "the one with the largest bust"

Also sayrn does not have synergy, inaros has synergy, ivara has synergy, Excalibur has synergy...

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[UltimateGrr]

Saryn is the new baseline for Damage 3.0 imo.  Inaros and everything else in U18.5 is balanced to a damage paradigm with significantly less ehp on enemies, so expect some "nerfs" coming to all frames and weapons when it comes out.  We'll be pulling smaller numbers, but enemies won't be so spongy.

Actually, you know what I'd love to see on Saryn?  Miasma changed from a PBAoE to a ground target AoE.  Same damage, same everything, just infinitely easier to deploy.

[Homer87]

This video is comparing apples to oranges - First he starts off by using a Saryn build that would not normally be used in regular gameplay, while not doing the same for Excalibur. Second, he doesn't talk about the full effects of the mechanics, and would leave a player who doesn't know any of this out and confused as to why any of that happened. I play Saryn a lot, and my build is nowhere near as gimmicky as the one that was shown, and has done better than this build against higher level enemies. All this video showed me is that Brozime should sit down and play with Saryn more, then issue a correction video.

[PrincessPilfer]

Except toxin procs stack and saryn can apply more toxic faster than any other frame by spreading it with spores. Whatever restances the enemy might have are quickly and easily over-ridden by the sheer volume of mega powerful toxic procs she can supply and by having their health neigh permanently halved. I'm also pretty sure viral counts as a debuff.

 

You don't know how to play Saryn, or you're trying to play her in something like a mid level exterminate where she never gets a chance to build.

 

Miasma is actually stronger than it was before, it's just less spamable. Spores is working exactly as intended, it's not some unintended exploit. She deals more toxic damage than anyone else for a reason. Toxic lash spreads spores  and auto procs toxic for a reason.  Spores spread toxic for a reason. That reason is so she can bring everything down with DoTs, and miasma is a not insignificant but of radial burst if she needs it.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

6 minutes ago, ForumPirate said:

You don't know how to play Saryn, or you're trying to play her in something like a mid level exterminate where she never gets a chance to build.

Okay go to simulacrum

135 corrupted heavy gunner

135 corrupted Bombard

135 Ex mus Corrupted Bombard / Gunner (for funzies)

No armor debuffing mods, only using sayrn to debuff enemies

 

Show the warframe community that sayrn can either

A) debuff an enemy to the point where he is vulnerable this entails stripping his armor

B) Either instantly kill OR Severely damage (to half HP or lower) one of the units.

Currently (based on the video) Excal can pretty much kill heavy units in seconds but since they were 80. I would assume that it would take 10-16 seconds to kill a 135 (based on experience)

Because as of now This mod:

Does a better job at debuffing enemies than misama.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[PrincessPilfer]

1 minute ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Okay go to simulacrum

135 corrupted heavy gunner

135 corrupted Bombard

135 Ex mus Corrupted Bombard / Gunner (for funzies)

No armor debuffing mods, only using sayrn to debuff enemies

 

Show the warframe community that sayrn can either

A) debuff an enemy to the point where he is vulnerable this entails stripping his armor

B) Either instantly kill OR Severely damage (to half HP or lower) one of the units.

Currently (based on the video) Excal can pretty much kill heavy units in seconds but since they were 80. I would assume that it would take 10-16 seconds to kill a 135 (based on experience)

 

 

You are *deliberately* ignoring that all of saryns damage is made possible by spreading spores and using said spores to trigger a ton of toxic over a large area. Saryn is not a burst frame. She would actually fare better against 20 level 135 heavy gunners than she would just 1 because that's an environment where her damage can actually ramp up like it is supposed to.

 

Comparing Saryn to Excal in a burst damage race against a lone target is like comparing Excal to Valkyr but only letting her use guns, or comparing Excal to Nyx and claiming that Excal is better because he has more DPS. They serve completely different purposes.

[UltimateGrr]

2 minutes ago, ForumPirate said:

You are *deliberately* ignoring that all of saryns damage is made possible by spreading spores and using said spores to trigger a ton of toxic over a large area. Saryn is not a burst frame. She would actually fare better against 20 level 135 heavy gunners than she would just 1 because that's an environment where her damage can actually ramp up like it is supposed to.

 

Comparing Saryn to Excal in a burst damage race against a lone target is like comparing Excal to Valkyr but only letting her use guns, or comparing Excal to Nyx and claiming that Excal is better because he has more DPS. They serve completely different purposes.

So much this.  Excal is single target burst DPS, while Saryn is DoTs for days on entire rooms of people, drowning them in Viral and Toxic procs.  One is designed to kill heavies, and the other is meant to kill everything else in short order.

 

[ClinkzEastwood]

44 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So the only way to reach high dps is to use only 10/200 or so weapons in the game real balance.

And lets be honest here the only thing that sayrn has going for her is her spores. Her miasma is terrible considering the amout of work you have to put into it to get it to work. I love sayrn but nothing can do her justice here. Nothing works

I can give you 30.

And aren't most of the weapons in this game are mastery fodder anyway?