Saryn's DPS

[ThatOddDeer]

23 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

If you count in QT it can be 15k(takes like 700 energy). What is in the same ballpark of Inaros that I can use without QT or primed flow in a 1h T4 melee run.

My Valkyr with QT is also well over 15k in build I did use before the hysteria changes.

Overall the numbers with QT are very reasonable and in line with other melee focused frames, with the benefit that it does also work in a caster build to a certain extend.

if you're counting QT on Saryn you must count it on all the frames rambitz mentioned as well.for the sake of balance. This would but her still vastly below all those frames who are not even melee oriented.

 

And your idea for spore seems good but shotguns exist. It will render spore even closer to mprime and for balance reasons I'd rather move the CC to toxic lash if anything.

[RealPandemonium]

11 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

What do you suggest, then?

Getting something like a 50% DR (static) when Toxic Lash is on in melee mode would be more than enough, IMO.  Maybe make blocking in TL give 100% DR and make Toxic Lash increase melee range too.

However, this is all pointless speculation until DE re-does durability and damage values for players and enemies.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[ThatOddDeer]

12 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Getting something like a 50% DR (static) when Toxic Lash is on in melee mode would be more than enough, IMO.  Maybe make blocking in TL give 100% DR and make Toxic Lash increase melee range too.

However, this is all pointless speculation until DE re-does durability and damage values for players and enemies.  

I wouldn't say pointless conjecture because we have mes/mirage/trinity as examples of % DR working perfectly fine at all stages in the game.

[Djego27]

3 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

Frames should not and are not balanced around QT. I only use it on one frame, which is Trin due to Blessing mechanics. And the stagger is potentially lethal in some situations.

Every single melee frame with the exception of Inaros(since it does not help that much on him) uses QT in a melee build. The simple reason for this is that nearly everything will murder you in under a second.

2 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

if you're counting QT on Saryn you must count it on all the frames rambitz mentioned as well.for the sake of balance. This would but her still vastly below all those frames who are not even melee oriented.

 

And your idea for spore seems good but shotguns exist. It will render spore even closer to mprime and for balance reasons I'd rather move the CC to toxic lash if anything.

Again 15k is a lot better then what you have now, a ton better actually. Inaros or Valkyr do not have much more and Chorma is absolute no fun in the void when you run into a nullifier ever 10s and have to stack your damage resistance all over again like 5 times per minute.

While this is possible with less F*** ups on my end, the process to getting there is a absolute pain by the lack of viable quick CC or a HP pool to work with like on melee frames that don't have it as well(Chroma\Valkry). You literally hold down the left mouse button non stop after 60 minutes with a R1 life strike that fills up the full HP in more or less single hits and the shield and HP warning sounds become annoying permanent background noise.

While the damage is not that incredible, at least you don't look like a absolute moron when you stand in-front of a arson eximus heavy gunner or bombard with Ember in the same situation. It is like literally taking away 90% of your dps(against everything around it as well), reducing your life strike to next to nothing and stacking a 97% damage reduction and over 100k HP against a weapon that can't proc corrosive. At this point your only hope are good rolls for slash procs.

As for shotguns, the only shotguns that allow you to hit the hole room are boar prime(what is bad since U17 and would not work on saryn that good anyway because it is low dps and horrible for proc based damage) or the kohm what does the same thing while being even less ammo efficient(I managed to run out of ammo with primed ammo mutation before the 40 minute mark in T4).

Otherwise you will hit one target and her spore and it will be CCed for 1s. On the flip side before DE did the shotgun buff, a boar prime did CC everything you hit what is even required because it got a effective single target dps range of 5m or less and was only useful beyond L100 against absurd armor levels.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Djego27

[ThatOddDeer]

14 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Every single melee frame with the exception of Inaros(since it does not help that much on him) uses QT in a melee build. The simple reason for this is that nearly everything will murder you in under a second.

Again 15k is a lot better then what you have now, a ton better actually. Inaros or Valkyr do not have much more and Chorma is absolute no fun in the void when you run into a nullifier ever 10s and have to stack your damage resistance all over again like 5 times per minute.

 

While this is possible with less F*** ups on part, the process to getting there is a absolute pain by the lack of viable quick CC or a HP pool to work with like on melee frames that don't have it as well(Chroma\Valkry). You literally hold down the left mouse button non stop after 60 minutes with a R1 life strike that fills up the full HP in more or less single hits and the shield and HP warning sounds become annoying permanent background noise.

While the damage is not that incredible, at least you don't look like a absolute moron when you stand in-front of a arson eximus heavy gunner or bombard with Ember in the same situation. It is like literally taking away 90% of your dps(against everything around it as well), reducing your life strike to next to nothing and stacking a 97% damage reduction and over 100k HP against a weapon that can't proc corrosive. At this point your only hope are good rolls for slash procs.

As for shotguns, the only shotguns that allow you to hit the hole room are boar prime(what is bad since U17 and would not work on saryn that good anyway because it is low dps and horrible for proc based damage) or the kohm what does the same thing while being even less ammo efficient(I managed to run out of ammo with primed ammo mutation before the 40 minute mark in T4).

Otherwise you will hit one target and her spore and it will be CCed for 1s. On the flip side before DE did the shotgun buff, a boar prime did CC everything you hit what is even required because it got a effective single target dps range of 5m or less and was only useful beyond L100 against absurd armor levels.

 

My saryn runs functionally without QT because I rely on shadowstep and regen molt to cover my weaknesses on the defensive side so I can focus on fixing saryn's weakness to armor by substituting lifestrike for weeping wounds, a build that works on any frame that is not able to reliably strip or ignore armor. QT +rage + lifestrike is something that can work effectively on any frame and seems not surprisingly more effective on saryn than others. Plus, DR would be a thematic bonus for her "class" in warframe. She's a hybrid melee/debuffer which puts her closer to a caster than most frames, which have defensive abilities that all work via % DR  

 

On the terms of shotguns you keep discounting the strun wraith, which is still an acceptable alternative to boar prime in my honest opinion, and I suggest you test it out in the simulacrum at least.

[Rambit23Z]

22 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Every single melee frame with the exception of Inaros(since it does not help that much on him) uses QT in a melee build. The simple reason for this is that nearly everything will murder you in under a second.

You say that as if it is definitive fact. It's not. QT is a mod that you'd want to safeguard against the potential one-hit kills. It should not (and is not) a standard defensive mod such as vitality. Use it as much as you like, but don't tell me that it's mandatory for melee builds.

26 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Again 15k is a lot better then what you have now, a ton better actually.

EHP doesn't matter if you get stunlocked. I tried QT on Saryn, and it was more of a hindrance than helpful. I'd rather have a mod that stops me from losing all my HP in the first place, such as Rush or Handspring.

29 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Chorma is absolute no fun in the void when you run into a nullifier ever 10s and have to stack your damage resistance all over again like 5 times per minute.

It takes like, five seconds to stack the buffs. Or just shoot the bubble works too.

 

And remember, Chroma and Mirage will reach way higher damage than Saryn ever will. (Excluding those perfect AOE scenarios) And they are not restricted to melee while doing said damage.

[Xarteros]

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Xarteros

[Xarteros]

For some reason that reply bugged and I couldn't actually type, apologies for the double post.

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

-Snip-
Every single melee frame with the exception of Inaros(since it does not help that much on him) uses QT in a melee build

To be perfectly honest, I have never once in my 2000~ish hours of gameplay, ever used QT. Sure, I don't run 2 hour survivals twice a day, but I do run very high level missions in melee builds and I've always figured a way around dying without using QT. As has been stated, warframes in general shouldn't be balanced around optional mods.

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I wouldn't say pointless conjecture because we have mes/mirage/trinity as examples of % DR working perfectly fine at all stages in the game.

Is 80-95% DR working fine at all stages?  Before the 70s it's effective godmode, and after the 70s it's a bandaid for a while until spike damage gets so high that it doesn't matter anymore unless you're spamming heals.  Stuff like Ballista/Seeker focus, Techs, etc will spike you down sooner, but yeah.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[ThatOddDeer]

4 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Is 80-95% DR working fine at all stages?  Before the 70s it's effective godmode, and after the 70s it's a bandaid for a while until spike damage gets so high that it doesn't matter anymore unless you're spamming heals.  Stuff like Ballista/Seeker focus, Techs, etc will spike you down sooner, but yeah.  

It's enough to push saryn above. We may call it a bandaid but it;'s better than what saryn currently makes due with

[Djego27]

3 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

My saryn runs functionally without QT because I rely on shadowstep and regen molt to cover my weaknesses on the defensive side so I can focus on fixing saryn's weakness to armor by substituting lifestrike for weeping wounds, a build that works on any frame that is not able to reliably strip or ignore armor. QT +rage + lifestrike is something that can work effectively on any frame and seems not surprisingly more effective on saryn than others. Plus, DR would be a thematic bonus for her "class" in warframe. She's a hybrid melee/debuffer which puts her closer to a caster than most frames, which have defensive abilities that all work via % DR  

 

On the terms of shotguns you keep discounting the strun wraith, which is still an acceptable alternative to boar prime in my honest opinion, and I suggest you test it out in the simulacrum at least.

Then why would you even start a discussion about EHP values? I just give my opinion where Saryn could be to be a more enjoyable frame if you play it normally. I will not compare it to what you get with shadow step, because at this point you throw game balance basically completely out of the window.

I did tons of runs with the strun wraith and ember after U17, bottom line it does not reload fast enught(with 2 reload speed mods) to provide reasonable use after 50 minutes solo into T3S or T4S and is vastly outclassed by the vaykor hek(that still kills even heavy stuff just as quick at this point while it one shots everything else) or the prisma grakata, because it is a good status weapon without the ridiculous drawbacks DE decided to give status shotguns with in U17. It also does not have a huge spread, what again would only CC single targets, what it already can do perfectly fine as a status shotgun if you put any element that does CC on it.

3 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

You say that as if it is definitive fact. It's not. QT is a mod that you'd want to safeguard against the potential one-hit kills. It should not (and is not) a standard defensive mod such as vitality. Use it as much as you like, but don't tell me that it's mandatory for melee builds.

EHP doesn't matter if you get stunlocked. I tried QT on Saryn, and it was more of a hindrance than helpful. I'd rather have a mod that stops me from losing all my HP in the first place, such as Rush or Handspring.

It takes like, five seconds to stack the buffs. Or just shoot the bubble works too.

 

And remember, Chroma and Mirage will reach way higher damage than Saryn ever will. (Excluding those perfect AOE scenarios) And they are not restricted to melee while doing said damage.

Just look at any non cheese video of any reasonable solo melee run without the mod, it is literally impossible if you play it without shadow step, invisibility or god mode cheese.

This would be one for example: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHc1Eomq67x90ZMM2mNVZZA

While the stagger should be removed, it can be migrated with blocking and rolling. On Ember for example face tanking into your energy is incredible bad, since you will not only die by that super quick but you also have a terrible HP to energy conversion rate what means mistakes like this, even if they don't kill you will be a massive problem.

It takes 5s multiple times per minute if you don't use a quick attack melee weapon with a ok range. Switching weapons takes to much time and makes you very likely to get killed at high levels, since basically every second you spend outside of life stike range, even with chorma can be a huge problem.

With Mirage it is super damage or super tank, not both at once. Chroma is kind of single target and mostly a solo frame. I also suggested to apply toxic lash with the extra toxin damage and proc to ranged weapons(no AOE mechanics) to help with single target damage, what is kind of lacking from my experience beyond L140 ish.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Djego27

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Djego27 said:

-snip-

With Mirage it is super damage or super tank, not both at once. Chroma is kind of single target and mostly a solo frame. I also suggested to apply toxic lash with the extra toxin damage and proc to ranged weapons(no AOE mechanics) to help with single target damage, what is kind of lacking from my experience beyond L140 ish.

Sadly that will almost NEVER happen. [DE] wants her to be melee based and toxic lash will always be melee oriented, like warcy or speed. That idea was pitched so many times during her initial stages of her rework yet it never happened. 

Also I kind of want to send you a video of strun wraith vs vaykor hek but thats off topic to the thread in a large degree but I can go take both my builds and tell you number of shots to take down 1,5,10 level 135 heavy gunners

[PikeOrShield]

So, I've been following this thread from the shadows, etc. etc.  and I think you guys should put your ideas into new threads.  I like what's being said, but it's branched way off from the original topic and lots of your ideas deserve their own thread instead of being at the back end off this wall.  There are too many ideas rolling around for any of them to get some spotlight or traction and most newcomers to this thread don't make it this far.  I'd personally like to see more about toxic lash giving a % damage reduction like link or shatter shield to make it useful outside of melee.  Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, PikeOrShield said:

So, I've been following this thread from the shadows, etc. etc.  and I think you guys should put your ideas into new threads.  I like what's being said, but it's branched way off from the original topic and lots of your ideas deserve their own thread instead of being at the back end off this wall.  There are too many ideas rolling around for any of them to get some spotlight or traction and most newcomers to this thread don't make it this far.  I'd personally like to see more about toxic lash giving a % damage reduction like link or shatter shield to make it useful outside of melee.  Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

pretty much what most of us are saying.

[Rambit23Z]

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Just look at any non cheese video of any reasonable solo melee run without the mod, it is literally impossible if you play it without shadow step, invisibility or god mode cheese.

You know just as well as I that it is not "literally impossible", if you're talking about levels 200 and above, maybe. But then you're far away from where the game intended to be balanced. And ideally you wouldn't need QT because the higher the level the more you want to avoid damage entirely.

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

This would be one for example: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHc1Eomq67x90ZMM2mNVZZA

Which one? This links me to a channel with several 1 hour+ videos.

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

While the stagger should be removed, it can be migrated with blocking and rolling. On Ember for example face tanking into your energy is incredible bad, since you will not only die by that super quick but you also have a terrible HP to energy conversion rate what means mistakes like this, even if they don't kill you will be a massive problem.

Ember is a squishy frame though. It makes sense to use QT on her, (even though I don't) but that does not mean all frames should need it, especially melee frames.

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

It takes 5s multiple times per minute if you don't use a quick attack melee weapon with a ok range. Switching weapons takes to much time and makes you very likely to get killed at high levels, since basically every second you spend outside of life stike range, even with chorma can be a huge problem.

Until we get Corrupted Techs, Chroma will have no problem tanking damage at higher levels. 27 EHP which can be increased even further with blocking. And remember that he doesn't need to tank that many enemies at once due to the 5.39x damage multiplier.

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

With Mirage it is super damage or super tank, not both at once.

True, but decoys take most of the non AOE damage.

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Chroma is kind of single target and mostly a solo frame.

Not quite. Because his damage buff is universal and not melee only, that means he can pull out an AOE weapon at any time to clear crowds.

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

I also suggested to apply toxic lash with the extra toxin damage and proc to ranged weapons(no AOE mechanics) to help with single target damage, what is kind of lacking from my experience beyond L140 ish.

Perhaps. Though her durability needs to be addressed first.

[Djego27]

13 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Also I kind of want to send you a video of strun wraith vs vaykor hek but thats off topic to the thread in a large degree but I can go take both my builds and tell you number of shots to take down 1,5,10 level 135 heavy gunners

Well I tested it excessive after U17 in solo survival, since the boar prime was my most used primary before U17 and was kind of exactly the primary weapon you want on Ember. Bottom line It just reloads to slow to keep up. You need multiple hits for cannon fodder each at around L90, vaykor hek does this in 1 hit. You need 4-6 rounds to soften up L100 bombards\heavy gunners and about 2 more for the kill, vaykor hek is nearly as quick. In the end you have a gun that reloads faster, clears trash significant faster while needed less rounds(what also means less reloads). Assuming you have everything CCed at L150+ in a 4 man team maybe but then you most likely will just use CP. In general it is like the akbronko prime, a weapon that could be useful at high levels as status option if it would have proper reload speed(in case of the akbronko prime also 40% base status since blast is horrible for multi target dps).

 

2 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

You know just as well as I that it is not "literally impossible", if you're talking about levels 200 and above, maybe. But then you're far away from where the game intended to be balanced. And ideally you wouldn't need QT because the higher the level the more you want to avoid damage entirely.

Which one? This links me to a channel with several 1 hour+ videos.

Ember is a squishy frame though. It makes sense to use QT on her, (even though I don't) but that does not mean all frames should need it, especially melee frames.

Until we get Corrupted Techs, Chroma will have no problem tanking damage at higher levels. 27 EHP which can be increased even further with blocking. And remember that he doesn't need to tank that many enemies at once due to the 5.39x damage multiplier.

True, but decoys take most of the non AOE damage.

Not quite. Because his damage buff is universal and not melee only, that means he can pull out an AOE weapon at any time to clear crowds.

Perhaps. Though her durability needs to be addressed first.

I highly suggest you take your saryn and go to 1h solo melee only and judge by yourself how good that works without QT for stuff like T3S.

As for the channel it does not really matter it is the same for all the melee runs outside of demonstrating how cheesy shadow step is or how broken covert lethality was with Loki when it did work on any untalented attack.

I never use QT on Ember on normal runs with guns, however I would have died like 4 times till 1h and about 50+ times afterwards with Saryn in my melee run simply because incoming damage just to high.

You don't clear crowds with Chroma at high levels with AOE weapons, because ancients/eximus will make that incredible ineffective and melee at least since the shadow dept mods just out scales ranged weapons at high levels.

Again I am not really sure why we are discussing EHP here, given that we apparently don't even need QT before L200+.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

OR! and its a long shot... we could just fix the insane amount of enemy damage

[Xarteros]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

OR! and its a long shot... we could just fix the insane amount of enemy damage

We don't know what's going to happen with damage 3.0, but changing enemy damage isn't really much of a fix, since all it would do is require every warframe to be rebalanced anyway. It's easier to tweak frames to be roughly on par in their respective fields, and end-game damage is purely optional. There is nothing that requires you to fight level 200+ enemies, so the damage is ok to be a bit insane, as long as warframes can more equally contend at that level.

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

I highly suggest you take your saryn and go to 1h solo melee only and judge by yourself how good that works without QT for stuff like T3S.

I get bored way to fast for endurance void runs. Maybe some other time, doubt it though.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

As for the channel it does not really matter it is the same for all the melee runs outside of demonstrating how cheesy shadow step is or how broken covert lethality was with Loki when it did work on any untalented attack.

Well, yeah. That's why I don't use Shadow Step.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

I never use QT on Ember on normal runs with guns, however I would have died like 4 times till 1h and about 50+ times afterwards with Saryn in my melee run simply because incoming damage just to high.

The enemies are supposed to deal huge amounts of damage at higher levels. They're basically telling you; "It's time to stop".

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

You don't clear crowds with Chroma at high levels with AOE weapons, because ancients/eximus will make that incredible ineffective and melee at least since the shadow dept mods just out scales ranged weapons at high levels.

That's why you aim for the ancients first.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Again I am not really sure why we are discussing EHP here, given that we apparently don't even need QT before L200+.

The reason I'm discussing this is because 5k EHP is really low for a melee frame. 10k (with 75% damage reduction) is a decent spot for a relatively risky frame like Saryn. And QT should not be a requirement to get decent survivability with a melee frame.

[Djego27]

51 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

We don't know what's going to happen with damage 3.0, but changing enemy damage isn't really much of a fix, since all it would do is require every warframe to be rebalanced anyway. It's easier to tweak frames to be roughly on par in their respective fields, and end-game damage is purely optional. There is nothing that requires you to fight level 200+ enemies, so the damage is ok to be a bit insane, as long as warframes can more equally contend at that level.

Actually no, it would be much better to cap damage at around L70-80 and fix the massive outlines like balistas, Techs, speed trigger Ogris Bombards, Napalms etc. After this DE could knock down stupid stuff like 95% damage resistance, perma CC or blessing to more reasonable levels and create a even playing field where you actually play against high level stuff instead of just CC everything or get one hit killed. This does ofc also require a much better balance of weapon dps(what is plain out of wrack) and status(what is kind of lacking today, compared to the high end dps weapons) to create a game where long missions are actually fun and challenging instead of the boring CC/god mode stuff we play currently.

 

16 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

I get bored way to fast for endurance void runs. Maybe some other time, doubt it though.

Well, yeah. That's why I don't use Shadow Step.

The enemies are supposed to deal huge amounts of damage at higher levels. They're basically telling you; "It's time to stop".

That's why you aim for the ancients first.

The reason I'm discussing this is because 5k EHP is really low for a melee frame. 10k (with 75% damage reduction) is a decent spot for a relatively risky frame like Saryn. And QT should not be a requirement to get decent survivability with a melee frame.

Enemy damage scaling is a very bad mechanic to balance high level missions against, because there is no even playing field for frames that would make a less binary attribute.

I still don't get it how you could have a strong opinion about melee frames and EHP values when you get bored to quick to do high level melee runs with them(the only place where EHP matters) and consider that 1/3 of your EHP pool works well enught as it is up to L200.

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Enemy damage scaling is a very bad mechanic to balance high level missions against, because there is no even playing field for frames that would make a less binary attribute.

Until we have something new, that's all we have to work with.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

I still don't get it how you could have a strong opinion about melee frames and EHP values when you get bored to quick to do high level melee runs with them(the only place where EHP matters) and consider that 1/3 of your EHP pool works well enught as it is up to L200.

I occasionally do longer runs, very rarely due to my recent completion of my Prime collection. There's also Sorties, where enemies (might) reach level 120 during a defense. Slap a radiation condition on it and the enemies will be hitting like absolute trucks. (I consider Grineer more dangerous than corrupted)

My point is, Saryn is the only melee frame that requires fast reflexes to survive hits. Now to me that is a sign of a well-designed frame. But she's also the only melee frame that can be ended by a single point blank shot from a Corrupted Crewman.

Also, I might not do too many long runs, but others do. I think about more than just myself with this.

[blaes]

23 hours ago, Djego27 said:

If you count in QT it can be 15k(takes like 700 energy). What is in the same ballpark of Inaros that I can use without QT or primed flow in a 1h T4 melee run.

My Valkyr with QT is also well over 15k in build I did use before the hysteria changes.

Overall the numbers with QT are very reasonable and in line with other melee focused frames, with the benefit that it does also work in a caster build to a certain extend.

Except that those others melee frames have good defensive tools.

Valkyr has paralysis, higly spammable CC, and hysteria, damage immunity on demand when she needs to heal.

Inaros has dessication, finisher opener with extremely strong CC and life leech, and damage immunity while devouring an enemy (which is also a heal).

On 12/4/2016 at 5:26 PM, Rambit23Z said:

Ice Chroma: 27172(300) EHP + 5.34 damage multiplier.

My ice chroma is more like 60000 EHP. And I think I could push it a bit further with armored agility/vigor (or QT) if I really felt like it.

I face-tanked the last sortie assassination from start to finish, including the boss.

Edited April 13, 2016 by blaes

[ThatOddDeer]

1 hour ago, blaes said:

Except that those others melee frames have good defensive tools.

Valkyr has paralysis, higly spammable CC, and hysteria, damage immunity on demand when she needs to heal.

Inaros has dessication, finisher opener with extremely strong CC and life leech, and damage immunity while devouring an enemy (which is also a heal).

My ice chroma is more like 60000 EHP. And I think I could push it a bit further with armored agility/vigor (or QT) if I really felt like it.

I face-tanked the last sortie assassination from start to finish, including the boss.

This is all alright too. These are tanky frames doing their job, surviving, excellently. However, when a melee frame like saryn is outdone in melee by frames not even meant for it, both in damage and survivability, then there is a problem with the frame not performing as intended.

[Djego27]

6 hours ago, blaes said:

Except that those others melee frames have good defensive tools.

Valkyr has paralysis, higly spammable CC, and hysteria, damage immunity on demand when she needs to heal.

Inaros has dessication, finisher opener with extremely strong CC and life leech, and damage immunity while devouring an enemy (which is also a heal).

My ice chroma is more like 60000 EHP. And I think I could push it a bit further with armored agility/vigor (or QT) if I really felt like it.

I face-tanked the last sortie assassination from start to finish, including the boss.

Paralysis is extreme limited in range with melee builds(both eternal war and hysteria) and it is not damage immunity if you need to heal(you will never run a non hysteria build without life strike, it is just a massive pain in the &#!), it is hysteria non stop because it does the most damage possible and allows you to throw all defensive mods out of the build for more dps.

You will never use devouring since a single finisher heals you up to full HP with a R1 life strike on a heavy blade melee weapon with zero combo counter(R0 is probably absolute sufficient as well given that you hit for 270k with a scindo prime and a 3x melee counter). Inaros does feel like maximum cheese even 1h into solo T4S because next to nothing can even hit you and your HP to energy conversion is super good, even compared to a frame like Chroma plain better while you never run into issues with life stike. It is just a frame that can stack caster stuff like range and duration in a melee build to spend 80% of your melee time in finisher animation and dealing absurd damage.

I have no idea how you calculate 60k on your chroma, given that mine got 17k if you not take QT into account what feels more or less like Inaros(since both HP pools are very close to each other 1h into T4S). I soloed the sorti boss with my Nova prime today(would have loved to do it with Ember, but since the accelerant fire damage is not applied at all to bosses as we speak that makes it a absolute pain). Taking no damage >>> super duper damage resistance. Still took forever to finish it with it with my Sancti Tigris and Lex prime.

9 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

I occasionally do longer runs, very rarely due to my recent completion of my Prime collection. There's also Sorties, where enemies (might) reach level 120 during a defense. Slap a radiation condition on it and the enemies will be hitting like absolute trucks. (I consider Grineer more dangerous than corrupted)

My point is, Saryn is the only melee frame that requires fast reflexes to survive hits. Now to me that is a sign of a well-designed frame. But she's also the only melee frame that can be ended by a single point blank shot from a Corrupted Crewman.

Also, I might not do too many long runs, but others do. I think about more than just myself with this.

Grenier are certainly not more dangerous then corrupted, this would not do the cluster F*** of 90% healer damage reduction, nullifiers and speed trigger bombards justice. Radiation just means that you should cheese it, because it is even multiple times worse then 3x damage in T4 for a melee frame.

Saryn is not the only frame that requires skill for melee, Ember is a lot worse, Mag is actually a absolute player skill challenge(and yes I did over 1h in void survival with her melee only) since it is not even about AOE CC, but AOE damage redirection while you kill melee targets around a target that you have to keep alive. Then again Mag is most likely the weirdest thing to play melee, since you don't use vitality, QT, rage or life strike but 100% ranged damage immunity as long as you maintain your range to your BA trarget and shields, what you refresh by pressing 2.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Djego27

[RealPandemonium]

26 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Grenier are certainly not more dangerous then corrupted, this would not do the cluster F*** of 90% healer damage reduction, nullifiers and speed trigger bombards justice. Radiation just means that you should cheese it, because it is even multiple times worse then 3x damage in T4 for a melee frame.

Depends on what kind of Grineer are spawning.  If you get swarms of Bombards, Napalms, Seekers, Scorches, Ballistas, Shield Lancers, or Hyekka Masters, then you're gonna have a bad time.  The other Grineer units are not as dangerous IMO.