The De-personalization of Warframes...

[K0bra]

Can anyone explain me this?

 

Wake up Tenno and then there is a Warframe?So the Operator was sleeping and the Lotus woke the operator up through a warframe?

Why the warframe is breathing there and is confused because of his cryo sleep?

I have problems to understand this logic.

Thanks for anyone who can explain me this properly.

Edited April 6, 2016 by K0bra

[Mak_Gohae]

Dont try to make sense of the lore cause DE barely moves it forward each time they add something and they mostly just bring up questions.

 

You should just sit and wait patiently until your specific question is answered.

 

PS- your answer can be retcon later on so dont actually take anything as fact..... ever.

[SilentMobius]

8 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You've called that a retcon. I don't think it is, because it doesn't actually contradict anything in the prior information. Despite the fact that you keep insisting that Low Guardian means some sort of lowly foot soldier, the word low isn't capitalised. It's not part of the title. The Stalker describes the Guardians as low, but that's his description not his title. We still don't know what Guardian actually means, and the codex entry still says absolutely nothing which requires the Stalker to not be using Transference, either knowingly or unknowingly.

I agree, it's perfectly possible that a "Guardian" may well simply be Tenno that were not sent through the Tau Rail to fight the Sentients on their home ground. Those that remained behind to "Guard" the Orokin and the Origin System (Hence Guardian). Given that the returning Tenno were being "bathed in saviour's silks" it makes sense that a group of Tenno who were not being treated like that might describe themselves as "low".

[SilentMobius]

7 hours ago, CraackerTraash said:

Although, now it seems weird that the Operator has to touch their Warframe to regain control in the Second Dream. My best guess is that the conduits are just to make sustained Transference easier.

I don't think it's as black-and-white as that. Not an either-or situation where the Tenno can/cannot control the Warframe in-all-cased because of distance.

Think of the different situations:

• A child who has previously been involved with Margulis' research in letting them visualize and maybe project in some way (though not necessarily into something) suddenly being separated from that and left alone for a long time. Certainly I'd be reaching out in any way I could to find anything to latch on to.
• A child who was nearly mind-wiped suddenly coming back to their real body after spending a long time in an system that augmented Transference for them. that child had problem controlling their Void-based abilities but could certainly crudely blast away while outside the Transference chamber. I can see how delicate manipulation of a Warframe might be difficult in that situation and even contact with the Warframe isn't enough for the Warframe to operate in the manner it normally would (No warframe abilities could be used)
• The same child has been separated from their Warframe and is ultimately being choked to death by the Stalker. Would that kind of terror enable the child to briefly re-take control of the Warframe, even at a distance? Maybe, certainly I wouldn't discount it.

I think there is a big difference between a Warframe that the Operator is _very_ familiar with (Affinity Rank 30) and some random "Beast" that the Orokin (Possibly Enginus, possibly Archemedian) were working on. 

I'm more of the opinion that the Tenno-Operator relationship becomes deeper than simply "tech makes it work" as the Operator gains affinity rather than the (IMHO) story-toxic notion that the Warframes are in some way sapient and that Operators override that self-determination

[SilentMobius]

12 hours ago, Omnimorph said:

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the lore, there are no confusions, it's quite consistent.  It's just that it's still not quite complete yet....[snip]

I absolutly agree with almost everything here, expecially your clarity on the wide range of possible interpretations of the events we-the-player witnesses, so bravo for that. However, just one little point:

12 hours ago, Omnimorph said:

ISo when the Lotus says "dream not of what you are, but of what you want to be", the idea is that the Warframes were a bit analogous to ideal "superheroes"

That was Margulis' voice, and her research was later turned into "Transference". It's possible that Margulis' instructions led to the Tenno shaping the Warframes or that the mechanism for Warframe creation relied on Margulis' research such that the a Tenno's projected self-image had some impact on a design. But there is a disconnect between Margulis's intent and the later creation of the Warframes.

Edited April 6, 2016 by SilentMobius

[SilentMobius]

8 hours ago, magusat999 said:

Hayden is an ancient Tenno? That still makes him a Tenno, right? And he wore a (3) Warframe...So we can accept Inaros as a Warframe, who is old enough to be considered "ancient", but Hayden, because he mucks up the new storyline, we just go "he doesn't matter"? Doesn't Orikin technology pre-date or co- date Hayden's time? And if so how do we justify just forgetting that part of the lore (which DE has left connected as canon)?

1. There is a video of Dark Sector, where the first "Warframes" appeared  - has all of you seen it? How do we reconcile that to what we are being told now. In that video  the first Tenno wore a Warframe that morphed into three different versions on the fly  - how do we dismiss that? 
2. Further, i cannot see how we can be dismissive of Hayden, despite him being dead for a long time when we are using some of his Warframes. So we can accept part of his lore, but not all of it? I feel we know too much about the original storyline to just pretend it didn't exist. It needs to be inclusive and explained at this juncture. It needs to fit without insulting our intelligence.

The published game Dark Sector is "connected" to Warframe in that that both Warframe and Dark Sector are based on an original idea that DE were trying to get made since 2001. They share a common ancestor idea, the two stores are not canon to each other.

• The never-made, game that DE wanted to make features a high-tech power-suited character called "Hayden Tenno"
• The published game "Dark Sector" features a different Ex-agency agent called "Hayden Tenno"
• In Devstream 10 Geoff referred to "Hayden Tenno" as the "OG" AKA the "First Tenno"

These characters are "connected" but are not canon to each other, they are not the same person.

There is nothing in the published game "Dark Sector" nor the Promo video for the game that DE wanted to build (that you liked to) that we can rely on to have happened in the Warframe universe. Character names, concepts, meshes, textures and ideas may be re-used and recycled for eventual inclusion into Warframe but the canon stories of these elements cannot be relied on to be the same as they were in other stories.

Realise that creatives can write about a character and/or setting, be unhappy with that treatment and later reuse ideas, names, places without making the later work canon to the earlier work.

Edited April 6, 2016 by SilentMobius

[BornWithTeeth]

7 hours ago, magusat999 said:

Ok, a lot of thoughtful, intelligent responses here. All trying to figure it out, it seems. Im feeling a bit clearer, but not comfortably. I think I know what DE is TRYING to say, but it seems to still leave questions unanswered. 

1. When I first started playing, the name "Warframe" meant literally a frame (sort of exoskeleton) made for War. What does that name mean now?
2. Hayden is an ancient Tenno? That still makes him a Tenno, right? And he wore a (3) Warframe...So we can accept Inaros as a Warframe, who is old enough to be considered "ancient", but Hayden, because he mucks up the new storyline, we just go "he doesn't matter"? Doesn't Orikin technology pre-date or co- date Hayden's time? And if so how do we justify just forgetting that part of the lore (which DE has left connected as canon)?
3. There is a video of Dark Sector, where the first "Warframes" appeared  - has all of you seen it? How do we reconcile that to what we are being told now. In that video  the first Tenno wore a Warframe that morphed into three different versions on the fly  - how do we dismiss that? 
4. Further, i cannot see how we can be dismissive of Hayden, despite him being dead for a long time when we are using some of his Warframes. So we can accept part of his lore, but not all of it? I feel we know too much about the original storyline to just pretend it didn't exist. It needs to be inclusive and explained at this juncture. It needs to fit without insulting our intelligence.
5. If Stalker is wearing his Warframe, and not controlled by an operator... then isnt that the way things work? It almost seems to make Stalker a hero...
6. If the Warframes gained sentience, but tge operator technically did nit exist or have control of the Warframe until he/she was rescued... Way AFTER said rescue... Where did this sense of self (sentience) come from? Thus far no solid answers, just theory. What was making the Warframe have a mind before the Operator existed? Dont say there was some low level brain-like AI going on, because that doesnt explain all these tears (our years, not lore years) of playing AS the Warframe, thinking we are the Tony Stark in the Iron Man suit. And remember all of the interactions with other characters over the span  of the game. Who talks to a brainless drone like that, and there was no Operator so nothing to support Transference... How to explain that?
7. EDITED IN: 

   I added this info as an edit to my OP - but I will put it here because it is a relevant point and some people are not going back to the OP...

   The first Tenno, was Hayden. What was his last name? Do we all know that "Tenno" is Hayden's last name? So when Lotus started using that term, it was not a term - it was a NAME.

   In this video, what happens at 6:00? What is inside of Excalibur? Looks like Hayden Tenno to me. So this is the kind of thing that does not match up with the new "lore" and needs to be explained and clarified. Obviously the Warframe was originally conceive as a War Frame, not a drone, with a PERSON inside. We cannot just go back on that now. What explains this???

    

     Reveal hidden contents

    

    

   (I started this post from my tablet and a very rouge spell correcter that I needed to come back and basically re-type the whole thing from my computer... JEEZ!

 

Trying to treat darkSector as a directly relevant canonical prequel to Warframe is not going to work. The issue of whether or not Hayden Tenno existed is not relevant, as whether or not he did, he would have died millenia before the Orokin Era. For the time being, you're much better off accepting that the references to darkSector are easter eggs, left in homage to the spiritual predecessor of Warframe.

 

1. It still does. Warframe still means a frame for Tenno power, deployed to the battlefield. That has not changed.

2. Hayden Tenno did not wear a Warframe. He was an assassin/agent infected by the Technocyte who wore experimental power armour, augmented by his own Technocyte armour plating and bio-technological weapons. He doesn't 'muck up' the timeline, nor is the timeline of Warframe somehow a 'new' line which is required to match the events of darkSector. Again, insisting that darkSector must be treated as completely canonical, and that Hayden Tenno must be considered the first Tenno/Warframe is only going to cause confusion. Inaros is ancient.....because all Warframes are ancient. The Tenno slept for a long, long time, and while they did, it seems that some of the people whom they protected from the Orokin began to worship them as deities for doing so, never understanding exactly what it was that they worshipped. There is nothing in Inaros' lore which suggests that it is somehow significantly older than other Warframes.

3. Promotional and concept materials =/= finished, canonical game material. Trying to treat them as 100% canonical is only going to cause headaches.

4. The problem here is not 'disrespecting Hayden Tenno's historical role'. It is in trying to treat darkSector as a necessarily relevant and 100% canonical prequel to Warframe. Hayden Tenno did not have a stable of Warframes, did not use Void power, never left Earth, died before the twenty first century. He was the government assassin who was able to survive and control his personal infection long enough to prevent a massive Technocyte infestation event. Heroic. Virtuous. Not directly relevant to the Orokin adolescents who bear his name by coincidence millenia later.

5. The issue of whether or not one is 'wearing' their Warframe is not relevant to one's moral standing. Wearing a Warframe is not somehow more virtuous than operating it through Transference. What matters is what we do, not what we are wearing while we do it. So, no. If the Stalker is directly inhabiting his Warframe, that does not somehow make him the 'hero'. Most Tenno are morally ambiguous figures, who rescue civilians on Monday, then carry out terror strikes on Tuesday, perform acts of naked burglary on Wednesday, and then wipe out a dangerous Infestation on Thursday. I take Fridays off.

6. The Operator did not pop into existence only after the Second Dream. Nor is it the case that the Warframes had been independent and that the Second Dream caused the Operators to somehow resume control of them. The point of the Second Dream is that the Warframes were always (always, since the beginning of the game) controlled and inhabited by the consciousness of the Operator. Remember that moment from the Matrix, where Neo wakes up in the pod? It's that moment. You are still the same person you always were....but [the person whom you are] is not in the location and circumstances which you thought. The world and your life is not what you had thought. So, no. Second Dream is not the story of independent Warframes rescuing comatose Operators who then assert control of the 'frames. It is the story of the awakening of the Operators, whose dreaming wills have been inside the Warframes all along.

7. Tenno is indeed Hayden's last name. It's also translated from Japanese as 'Divine Emperor'. However, it has another meaning, which is a dreadful piece of slang. The Tenno were created by a Void jump accident onboard a ship called the Zariman 10-0. Say that last part out load. "Zariman Ten Oh." "The Ten Oh survivors." "These Tenno are too dangerous to live."

 

 

Basically, insisting that Hayden Tenno was somehow the 'first' of the player characters from Warframe and that his story must take precedence over Warframe's own lore is only gonna cause confusion, and (eventually) resentment, arguments, and conflicting headcanon.

 

That video is pretty cool....but it pre-dates darkSector by five years, and pretty clearly depicts a bunch of stuff which never happens in darkSector. Digital Extremes originally pitched a game which would have been somewhere between darkSector and the modern Warframe. Their sponsorship caused them to focus more on the darkSector elements, and I understand that the resulting game was never 100% what they had originally wished to make. Then, when they got the chance, a bunch of the unused or shared elements made it into Warframe.

 

Trying to force Warframe and darkSector to seamlessly fit together is not going to work out. Accepting that the games share elements, visual themes, and references, and have an uneasy, overlapping canonicity? That'll work.

[Rorgal_Sina]

Warframes are weapons. We don't yet know if they are sentient (THE DEFINITION, NOT THE FACTION), it all depends on how DE builds on the Warframe breaking the War into two.

However, who's to say that armors, weapons, and mechs can't have a personality of their own? I'm sure you watched enough shows to develop a bond with a non-living object that accompanies you. Heck, you can customize and personalize them in so many ways! This game is called Warframe after all, so wouldn't the experience of fighting as a Warframe perfectly fill that role?

In mech games, do you identify as the mech or the pilot?

[SilentMobius]

16 minutes ago, Rorgal_Sina said:

Warframes are weapons. We don't yet know if they are sentient (THE DEFINITION, NOT THE FACTION), it all depends on how DE builds on the Warframe breaking the War into two.

However, who's to say that armors, weapons, and mechs can't have a personality of their own? I'm sure you watched enough shows to develop a bond with a non-living object that accompanies you. Heck, you can customize and personalize them in so many ways! This game is called Warframe after all, so wouldn't the experience of fighting as a Warframe perfectly fill that role?

In mech games, do you identify as the mech or the pilot?

I'd suggest using the term "Sapient" instead of "Sentient" as it avoid confusion with the faction. Also it's more useful in that:

• "Sapient" infers thinking and reasoning, it is the quality that infers "person-ness" (EG. Homo Sapiens)
• "Sentient" infers felling, capable of suffering and emotional imperatives.

Humans are both Sentient and Sapient, some animals are considered only Sentient but not Sapient, some AI's could be considered only Sapient not Sentient.

• Warframes could be simply inanimate with the Second Dream War-breaking sequence being due to the Operator.
• Warframes could house void-echoes of their operator that fade fast, generally not enough to animate them
• Warframes could be sentient-only, being like animals, but then the question becomes why they drop when not under the control of an operator. It also causes notable moral problems akin to dog-fighting.
• Warframes could be sapient-only but that raises the same question above and also causes massive moral problems akin to violation of bodily autonomy
• Warframes could be sapient-and-sentient but that would be much too horrifc for this game.

IMHO any independent motive identity in the Warframes casts the Tenno as Moreau-Mengler-Mindcontrol-Slavemasters, which would be a hell of a forced shift, and I just don't see DE going down a path that casts 99% of the game an an ongoing player-perpetuated-war-crime

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by SilentMobius

[arch111]

This discussion is still the same even post Second Dream. But one major thing is new.

The Tenno is us, it was allways us as players building and using the biotechnolocal armors.

But now we have the Operators awake. This is the change that makes me identify as the warframe. Why? Because my Operator talks to me and about me.

As soon as that happened, there were 3 of us. I cannot control the Operator,  but I am her Hand and the Hand sometimes dissobeys the Will.

I identify as my Ember or Loki because I control them. That I do not exist without my Operator is irrelevant, 

She Dream so I can be awake, affinity makes the warframe strong And the Operator more powerful. 

[Guest]

big thx for magusat999, i was on the same point and come always back to it

in parts spoken, the offers of the development are nice, as well as i miss a clear storyline since a year now which isnt really comfortable because i dont "eat" everything i get offered

first i was amazed about the operator, but now i can see its a waste and im no longer attracted by a "wheelchairish avatar" based on "hindu-siddhis etc." which guides to a imprisoned mind more then to a free enlightened one which is the basement of all life on earth and its development, its simply true ^^)

i started playing warframe because i understood the offer before 2 years that way that "I" control the warframes and choose them for my joy and fun and how i feel the moment i wanna play or play warframe

now i have some "minddisturbing personality" which i will be able to give different hairs, faces, and whatever cosmetics with U 19 or earlier, not really that what i was thinking about according to a clear lore which "could" appear slowly instead of art-ist overwhelming pieces of a story which start being confusing

as said, i dont take every offer i get even that i love playing warframe ... things have to be clear or i loose interest forced by "grindwalls" ^^)

honestly

[tnccs215]

47 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I'd suggest using the term "Sapient" instead of "Sentient" as it avoid confusion with the faction. Also it's more useful in that:

• "Sapient" infers thinking and reasoning, it is the quality that infers "person-ness" (EG. Homo Sapiens)
• "Sentient" infers felling, capable of suffering and emotional imperatives.

Humans are both Sentient and Sapient, some animals are considered only Sentient but not Sapient, some AI's could be considered only Sapient not Sentient.

• Warframes could be simply inanimate with the Second Dream War-breaking sequence being due to the Operator.
• Warframes could house void-echoes of their operator that fade fast, generally not enough to animate them
• Warframes could be sentient-only, being like animals, but then the question becomes why they drop when not under the control of an operator. It also causes notable moral problems akin to dog-fighting.
• Warframes could be sapient-only but that raises the same question above and also causes massive moral problems akin to violation of bodily autonomy
• Warframes could be sapient-and-sentient but that would be much too horrifc for this game.

IMHO any independent motive identity in the Warframes casts the Tenno as Moreau-Mengler-Mindcontrol-Slavemasters, which would be a hell of a forced shift, and I just don't see DE going down a path that casts 99% of the game an an ongoing player-perpetuated-war-crime

 

While I mostly agree, I'd like to had that salience is impossible without sentience, since emotion give the basis on which logic builds itself. This was proven several times by particular medical cases, for example the case of Phineas Cage, whose partial destruction of the brain rendered him incapable of feeling emotions, and that made him uncap able of realizing most daily chores, including and specially those that we deem purely "logical". He was still capable of making deductions and mathematical equations, but he couldn't apply them. In the end, the opposition between emotions and logic is nothing but a myth.

I mean, last time I checked, being happy when something good happens is logical, no?

This is just a detail, its value for the conversation is practically null. But I think it might be convenient nonetheless.

[tnccs215]

20 minutes ago, arch111 said:

This discussion is still the same even post Second Dream. But one major thing is new.

The Tenno is us, it was allways us as players building and using the biotechnolocal armors.

But now we have the Operators awake. This is the change that makes me identify as the warframe. Why? Because my Operator talks to me and about me.

As soon as that happened, there were 3 of us. I cannot control the Operator,  but I am her Hand and the Hand sometimes dissobeys the Will.

I identify as my Ember or Loki because I control them. That I do not exist without my Operator is irrelevant, 

She Dream so I can be awake, affinity makes the warframe strong And the Operator more powerful. 

That makes a lot more sense than at first glance... And explains why I feel more connected to the frames ever since the second dream.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, arch111 said:

This discussion is still the same even post Second Dream. But one major thing is new.

The Tenno is us, it was allways us as players building and using the biotechnolocal armors.

But now we have the Operators awake. This is the change that makes me identify as the warframe. Why? Because my Operator talks to me and about me.

As soon as that happened, there were 3 of us. I cannot control the Operator,  but I am her Hand and the Hand sometimes dissobeys the Will.

I identify as my Ember or Loki because I control them. That I do not exist without my Operator is irrelevant, 

She Dream so I can be awake, affinity makes the warframe strong And the Operator more powerful. 

ok, accepted, as well as spoken for my mind, i can accept lotus and the operator as a part of the game as well as finally i dont care about them, i have no big feeling to the operator even that i have chosen the most close to a female one - beside lotus and her nice look-a-like - for my personal entertainment i can get out of warframe

(a handful of kids at this zariman-story for thousands of players ? there my mind goes ... as said, i can accept all because the game gives me the impression im the "tenno"-energy in the frames which gives them life since i started playing, if this get changed more i loose being connected to warframe ^^) )

as well as the moment i think about the "operator" or lotus more then a bit inspiritation beside playing my warframes and weapons in the game im scratching my head

i cant split myself up into more interest into lotus or the operator with the female touch i have given "it"

if i think about the offers from the last dev-streaming i start laughing because the first thing which come in my mind is, how much will the parts and "possible" packages which will appear count in platinum ?

so, all the confusion about the lore guides me only in one direction, marketing over art and as a result of this a totally confusing lore which will be splitted up even more when the umbra's appear ...

am i left curious how and when DE will give me a clear lore about this all ? right now, NO ... if this go on i will fall off as a natural development of my mind according to playing warframe

yeas, steve said a few of "us" players will not like it, as well as i dont care about this saying really, its his choice to express ideas/feelings in his mind which i dont have to follow because they dont tell me anything to the basic lore ... or should i ? ^^)

or should i accept that the basic lore even magusat is talking about in the most clear way i ever read here the last 2 years will be changed into smth confusioning forced by DE's marketing part ? i could not believe that (^^

sorry for my "maybe real" thinking and sharing, i cant do different

i wish deep there will be a real brightening solutionsoon, because warframe appears as a real bright heroic backstrengthening game for me, i dont wanna loose that basement as i understand it since i started playing ... i dont wanna have the feeling i wasted my time ^^)

[arch111]

15 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

That makes a lot more sense than at first glance... And explains why I feel more connected to the frames ever since the second dream.

Yes, prior to this the Operator and the warframe was one and the same.

That explains why all warframes have a "personality" it is imprinted upon them by their symbiosis to the Tenno who first "birthed" them as Transferrence took hold.

Like a echo or neural-ghost that makes the warframes live.

It allso explains why some warframes actually died in the war, and why Lotus mourned them.

Imagine you met a First, still in Cryo. That Tenno have never used another warframe and in fact would probably call you a Lier if you told her about the second dream. 

Once Clans, Traditions and dwellings including a Language was invented. These things take time and dedication.

We are now rediscovering that legacy.

Stalker may very well be a First.

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

While I mostly agree, I'd like to had that salience is impossible without sentience, since emotion give the basis on which logic builds itself. This was proven several times by particular medical cases, for example the case of Phineas Cage, whose partial destruction of the brain rendered him incapable of feeling emotions, and that made him uncap able of realizing most daily chores, including and specially those that we deem purely "logical". He was still capable of making deductions and mathematical equations, but he couldn't apply them. In the end, the opposition between emotions and logic is nothing but a myth.

I mean, last time I checked, being happy when something good happens is logical, no?

This is just a detail, its value for the conversation is practically null. But I think it might be convenient nonetheless.

That is more of a real-world philosophical point, and my well be true... but in a Sci-fi context the notion of emotionless AI is extablished enough to acknowledge the possibility in a given setting IMHO.

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

That is more of a real-world philosophical point, and my well be true... but in a Sci-fi context the notion of emotionless AI is extablished enough to acknowledge the possibility in a given setting IMHO.

In the Culture novels, it is possible to build a perfect AI, one with no emotional bias whatsoever. Such a pure intellect always responds by quietly erasing itself from this plane at the first opportunity, and Subliming to the (Void?).

[SilentMobius]

14 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

In the Culture novels, it is possible to build a perfect AI, one with no emotional bias whatsoever. Such a pure intellect always responds by quietly erasing itself from this plane at the first opportunity, and Subliming to the (Void?).

Indeed and I adore the culture novels. But the point remains that without an explicit treatise on what and how Warframe-science works it shouldn't be discounted even if cephalons, "Sentients" and all other forms of (possible) created intelligence appear to be both sentient and sapient.

I also think that it's a useful term when discussing the topic. EG. "The Warframe-Operator relationship is completely unethical if a Warframes are sapient, regardless of weather of whether they are sentient."

Edited April 6, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Blakrana]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Most Tenno are morally ambiguous figures, who rescue civilians on Monday, then carry out terror strikes on Tuesday, perform acts of naked burglary on Wednesday, and then wipe out a dangerous Infestation on Thursday. I take Fridays off.

As they say in Shadowrun: "Sometimes we do the right thing. Sometimes we shoot people in the face for money."

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I think there is a big difference between a Warframe that the Operator is _very_ familiar with (Affinity Rank 30) and some random "Beast" that the Orokin (Possibly Enginus, possibly Archemedian) were working on. 

I'm more of the opinion that the Tenno-Operator relationship becomes deeper than simply "tech makes it work" as the Operator gains affinity

Certainly does lend itself to consideration. After all Affinity acknowledges particulars (EG This Saryn is levelled independently of any other Saryn you may own, and vice versa). Just a question of how it goes narratively for this potential 'deeper link'.

[SilentMobius]

5 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

Certainly does lend itself to consideration. After all Affinity acknowledges particulars (EG This Saryn is levelled independently of any other Saryn you may own, and vice versa). Just a question of how it goes narratively for this potential 'deeper link'.

I think that DE as storytellers would rather leave it vague, where the operator can do things that wouldn't usually happen "if the story required it" such as remotely move a Warframe. I think that, to them, story comes first, lore justification come second. Hence I use story first when evaluating things as "likely" or "not likely" rather than taking abstract lore connections as "rules"

AKA out-of-game story viability trumps in-game correspondences.

Edited April 6, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Blakrana]

8 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I think that DE as storytellers would rather leave it vague, where the operator can do things that wouldn't usually happen "if the story required it" such as remotely move a Warframe. I think that, to them, story comes first, lore justification come second. Hence I use story first when evaluating things as "likely" or "not likely" rather than taking abstract lore connections as "rules"

AKA out-of-game story viability trumps in-game correspondences.

Makes sense as an approach. Certainly better to have a kind of check lest the 'possibles' spiral out of hand as they may be want to do.

[brucifer1]

I have to agree with the OP. When I started playing the game I envisioned each warframe to be an individual person inside a suit just as in the dark sector concept video. For two years I played with that belief and even though DE made it known before the 2nd dream came out that this would not be the case, I am still disappointed. The 2nd dream has for me been a huge disconnect and while I still play the game it is no longer quite as immersive or enjoyable. I now find myself dreading future lore reveals as I fear they will be even more of a turn off to me, as at least now I can mute and pretty much ignore the tween in the back of the ship.

I know there are many who like the 2nd dream story, but hopefully DE has learned that lore at least the basic concept, should be given at the beginning of a games production, not 2 years in. If everyone understands what they are playing from the start then you don't have to try to tie things together and risk disappointing players later.

[ViLeDeth]

Ever Changing Lore.

Good luck.

[Jaruis]

17 hours ago, Naith said:

Regarding your title and the first half of your OP I personally disagree. I found that I felt that I had a bit more of an identity with the Operator and made it actually feel a little more personal. Probably in the minority here for that as there's a crowd with pitchforks who still complain about the concept DE went for, but I admire them sticking by it regardless. Despite that, Warframe's are still 'inhabited', but just not in the literal sense.

I disagree. I dislike the idea of an operator not because I want to actually be loki, but because the operator is just another addition of being another a person I hardly relate to thanks to the personality limitatons. If that crippled kid is supposed to be me, it should act like me. 

But it isnt, so I just treat it like a tool. The concept of us being humans should hopefully improve in the future, especially in terms of adding in more personality 

[Rorgal_Sina]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

"The Warframe-Operator relationship is completely unethical if a Warframes are sapient, regardless of weather of whether they are sentient."

Now assuming that #WarframeLivesMatter

The problem with this view is that we have not yet established the actual definition of transference. It's a link, I get it, but we haven't confirmed it as a "master to slave" type of relationship.

Do the Tenno control every muscle of the Warframe?