So, about Saryn...

[Lt.Cuddles]

With Saryn's prime access coming to a close I thought now would be a perfect time to talk about Saryn as a whole and just where she sits when it comes not to just overall scaling, but just where DE wanted her to be in terms of design. First off, she doesn't scale damage-wise, and you'd think with all this synergy she would, right? As it turns out her damage starts to fall off a cliff at around level 35ish enemies, which of course would be fine, if she had some form of CC, unfortunately that isn't the case, and on the cusp of late game, she is really there to just debuff enemies with viral procs, not too bad except Nova can do this just as well and without the need for viral, which means she also as an easier time with infested as well. Saryn also had her defensive stats nerfed some time back, and due to the lack of ability damage or built in CC, she struggles to say the least in melee range, even against lower level enemies. (Melee frame, right?) Although it isn't perfect, I feel the ideas I have put together may flesh her out a bit a give her a more distinct niche to fill then per say, second fiddle debuff support with a mostly moot 3.

First, simply add CC to her spores, in the form of either a blast or impact proc whenever they are popped by yourself or allies, this will help give her more control over close range fights rather then skirting around them

On her molt, wouldn't having her molt become an actual "ally" be more interesting then just having it sit around to soak damage? The molt would act more as a feral "beast" and attack nearby enemies in defense of Saryn, they would fly after and attack anything that targets Saryn herself, the molts themselves would lack shields, but have double health scaling and 100% armor scaling in comparasion to Saryn's base stats, and their melee attacks would scale along with Saryn's melee weapon and mods, they can also still detonate when killed and can also carry spores into combat on their bodies, allowing them to carry the CC into the fight with them.

Toxic Lash should be more of a shared buff with both allies and molts, along with allowing it to effect primaries and secondaries as well.

Miasma's damage could be changed to %health damage, Maybe 5-8% health per tic to give it scaling along with the corrosive procs, just some thoughts.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Lt.Cuddles
Not quite finished ^w^;

[AEP8FlyBoy]

17 minutes ago, Lt.Cuddles said:

"second fiddle debuff support with a pointless 3."

Pointless 3?

I beg to differ.

And sure her damage seems to fall off near level 40-50 or so, but if you manage to spread Viral and Toxin procs all over the place, it basically triples the damage Miasma can deal over its duration. Which is where Toxic Lash, Molt and Spores come in handy. Popping a Spore with Toxic Lash will spread Viral and Toxin to nearby enemies and then popping in a Miasma will stun them and deal triple damage overall.

As for late-game... this isn't a problem with Saryn.

It's a problem with Warframe in general. Enemies gain health and armor at equal rates and lead to increasingly large EHP pools. This and the fact that their damage goes up as well, and welp... they just turn into juggernauts at a point.

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Magnulast]

Around at 35 level enemies? What? I thought it falls off at around level 70+..

Her survivability is crap though.....it's really bad...miasma CC isn't as good....not saying the range is bad...but the fact that you have to stay still to cast it....makes it harder to use....unless using via airglide.

My question is this....do you use Toxic lash? It shreds any corpus and infested units(Sortie)....except grineer.

I don't know exactly where you get your results from....but...I have no clue what you are doing.....

[Wolfglaive]

Level 35-ish? You're doing it wrong if you're having a hard time with her at that level. She's fine the way she is, and much more powerful than people give her credit for. As for struggling in melee range? Hardly. And regarding your points about scaling and Nova, first, she scales just fine when using spore properly, i.e as a vehicle for high damage toxin procs, second, you can combine Nova and Saryn to reach an effective reduction of enemy health of 1/4 barring armor calculations from Mol Prime's increased damage, and Infested are resistant to viral damage, not viral procs. She's fine against them, too, and agruably she's better against them than the other two base factions, due to how high infested health tends to be.

[SodapopKevin]

My issue with her is it takes some much effort to maximize her use for such a meh payoff. Run up and throw down molt, put spores on it, miasma at the right time and positioning and even when you pull it all off on high level enemies it barely phases them. She doesn't have any defensive abilities either so good luck surviving long enough to set up spores and molts. Compare that to anyone with a Tonkor who can just one shot a group of enemies with one shot from a safe distance and it makes it really apparent Saryn is pretty lackluster in high level content.

What would be cool is if Molt stayed on Saryn similar to Iron Shell, and then she could cast it again to leave it behind like how it behaves now. Then she could have some protection while getting it into a good position, or at the very leave allow her to use her 3 better.

[Trichouette]

You probably aren't doing it right...

First, she has viral guaranteed proc. That makes her already powerful against all kind of enemies except maybe corpus, and even into late game.

Second, the spores carry on toxin procs, which is basically broken if you proc a big toxin DoT. Try using a melee weapon that crit often and you'll see how broken that is.

Really the only problem with her is how squishy she is, but with something like naramon or a trinity you can do anything \o/

(or a buff of her mold)

 

2 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

-snip-

What are we supposed to see on your picture ? (no offense, seriously asking)

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 minute ago, Magnulast said:

Around at 35 level enemies? What? I thought it falls off at around level 70+..

Her survivability is crap though.....it's really bad...miasma CC isn't as good....not saying the range is bad...but the fact that you have to stay still to cast it....makes it harder to use....unless using via airglide.

My question is this....do you use Toxic lash? It shreds any corpus and infested units(Sortie)....except grineer.

I don't know exactly where you get your results from....but...I have no clue what you are doing.....

Combined with Spores, and a good melee build, Toxic Lash can easily make mince meat of several types of enemies.

4x Damage with a Mios (or any high range melee) and Toxic Lash gives you good damage at these levels regardless of armor and a bit of damage block to boot.

[Lt.Cuddles]

9 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Pointless 3?

I beg to differ.

And sure her damage seems to fall off near level 40-50 or so, but if you manage to spread Viral and Toxin procs all over the place, it basically triples the damage Miasma can deal over its duration. Which is where Toxic Lash, Molt and Spores come in handy. Popping a Spore with Toxic Lash will spread Viral and Toxin to nearby enemies and then popping in a Miasma will stun them and deal triple damage overall.

As for late-game... this isn't a problem with Saryn.

It's a problem with Warframe in general. Enemies gain health and armor at equal rates and lead to increasingly large EHP pools. This and the fact that their damage goes up as well, and welp... they just turn into juggernauts at a point.

 

Well...I suppose enemies are the bigger issue, but I'd personally love to see the molt idea played with, and Toxic lash is quite good, saryn can't really use it too well unless she spams naramon, due to her  lacking CC/ ways to actually negate punishment.

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Lt.Cuddles

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

If your Saryn damage falls off around lvl 35, then you are using the wrong weapon/elements. 

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Just now, Lt.Cuddles said:

Well...I suppose enemies are the bigger issue, but I'd personally love to see the molt idea played with, and Toxic lash is quite good, saryn can't really use it too well unless she spams naramon, due to her  lacking CC/ ways to actually negate punishment.

 

Ever heard of Melee blocking?

Don't need Naramon to do well later-game with her. Just gotta keep on the move.  I will admit she does lack a bit on the Armor side, but she has one of the biggest health pools of all Warframes.

Molt, that sort of would be a cool idea to see it changed a bit, to give her a bit of defensive nuances.

[Lt.Cuddles]

8 minutes ago, SodapopKevin said:

My issue with her is it takes some much effort to maximize her use for such a meh payoff. Run up and throw down molt, put spores on it, miasma at the right time and positioning and even when you pull it all off on high level enemies it barely phases them. She doesn't have any defensive abilities either so good luck surviving long enough to set up spores and molts. Compare that to anyone with a Tonkor who can just one shot a group of enemies with one shot from a safe distance and it makes it really apparent Saryn is pretty lackluster in high level content.

What would be cool is if Molt stayed on Saryn similar to Iron Shell, and then she could cast it again to leave it behind like how it behaves now. Then she could have some protection while getting it into a good position, or at the very leave allow her to use her 3 better.

See I thought about that too, that would also be a neat idea to play around with in terms of her molt~

[Stratego89]

"Doesn't scale damage wise"

Saryn's 1 reduces pretty much the entire map's health max by 1/2 no matter their level.

Nothing to see here people, just another person who clearly has never actually played saryn post-rework and just wants their press 4 to win cheese back.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

4 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

"Doesn't scale damage wise"

Saryn's 1 reduces pretty much the entire map's health max by 1/2 no matter their level.

Nothing to see here people, just another person who clearly has never actually played saryn post-rework and just wants their press 4 to win cheese back.

Don't discount the OP yet, Stratego.

He's just throwing some ideas around.

[Lt.Cuddles]

8 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

"Doesn't scale damage wise"

Saryn's 1 reduces pretty much the entire map's health max by 1/2 no matter their level.

Nothing to see here people, just another person who clearly has never actually played saryn post-rework and just wants their press 4 to win cheese back.

Sorry maybe I was abit heavy handed, how do you usually build her? And how do you handle her in sortie level melee? I'd love any tips you'd be willing to share ^w^

 

[Lt.Cuddles]

11 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Ever heard of Melee blocking?

Don't need Naramon to do well later-game with her. Just gotta keep on the move.  I will admit she does lack a bit on the Armor side, but she has one of the biggest health pools of all Warframes.

Molt, that sort of would be a cool idea to see it changed a bit, to give her a bit of defensive nuances.

So would you blame Saryns lack of defense? Or more so just the enemies being just plain silly with scaling? I do block plenty but I was refering to clustered rooms with CC spamming enemies and hordes of damage all targeting you.

[Lt.Cuddles]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

If your Saryn damage falls off around lvl 35, then you are using the wrong weapon/elements. 

Well, what do you use? I'd love to take her further~

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Just now, Lt.Cuddles said:

So would you blame Saryns lack of defense? Or more so just the enemies being just plain silly with scaling? I do block plenty but I was refering to clustered rooms with CC spamming enemies and hordes of damage all targeting you.

It's a little of both tbh with you. Saryn doesn't have a lot going for her on the defensive side of things, but if you play with her with that knowledge and mod for her strengths, you can do quite a bit with her.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

1 minute ago, Lt.Cuddles said:

Well, what do you use? I'd love to take her further~

Personally, Ignis with Gas element. Read over this thread to understand Saryn.

 

[Lt.Cuddles]

1 minute ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

Personally, Ignis with Gas element. Read over this thread to understand Saryn.

 

Oh my...well excuse me...~

[tifanator]

Since no one has said it yet, my preferred build for team play (especially Defense) is max range (Overex, Stretch, Cunning Drift) with Concealed Explosives Hikou Prime. Molt > Spores on Molt > Start throwing Hikou. Concealed Explosives makes this weapon excellent at popping spores and they're already good for ripping through Nullifiers. Put Gas on it and you can proc Toxin on just about everybody as well. I barely even use Miasma, but that setup ensures that whenever I do I'm usually maxing the damage from it. 

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

2 minutes ago, Lt.Cuddles said:

Oh my...well excuse me...~

I hope you didn't take my response as being demeaning. I'm at work, so I can't explain in full details. PM me if you have questions and I'll answer when I have time.

[Lt.Cuddles]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

I hope you didn't take my response as being demeaning. I'm at work, so I can't explain in full details. PM me if you have questions and I'll answer when I have time.

Oh no its fine, thanks for this~

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

Honestly Toxic Lash with high strength gives great tankiness. Off the top of my head it's about a 95% block reduction. Oberon I really want to see buffed, and I think I have a few ideas regarding him.

[Stratego89]

5 minutes ago, Lt.Cuddles said:

Sorry maybe I was abit heavy handed, how do you usually build her? And how do you handle her in sortie level melee? I'd love any tips you'd be willing to share ^w^

 

I don't play Saryn a whole lot, and I've never used her for sortie level melee only (in fact I don't approve of DE's push to turn her into a melee focused frame)- but here are my suggestions.

First off, her best skill is her spores- without a doubt. It's an all consuming plague that you rarely have to recast that spreads among all enemies within range of any you pop, constantly halving enemy health from it's max to make them weakened targets, in addition to the insane amounts of DoT toxin damage/procs they create. It's best to have a weapon you feel comfortable using to pop her spores- and if you use Toxic Lash your melee has a 100% chance of popping them, so using a large range melee who can hit a lot of people at once is very very good for this.

Her molt IMO is lacking. It just doesn't pull aggro hard enough when you ditch it. IMO the best use of it is with the augment to restore health, but that might not be necessary if you are running a melee build with life strike. It really depends on what you prefer but life strike doesn't come with the (limited) aggro draw away from you molt creates. In fact you actually have to put yourself in more danger to get that health back. Additionally since your damage falls off the health you get from life strike does too, meaning it starts costing more and more energy to heal less and less health- and you also get health back slower while also losing health faster. TL;DR the augment is really better since it can be used in any situation, but it depends on your melee and personal preference, as well as the situations you'll be in. Another thing to remember about molt is that you can cast molt and then cast spore ON the molt and any enemies that attack it- ranged or otherwise- will be infected with spores. Meaning one spore cast gets you more initial targets, and spread about. How you should cast spores is dependent on where the enemies are around you. One final thing- when you cast Miasma while your molt is nearby/in range, your damage is heavily amplified (same goes for if enemies are just toxin/viral proc'd, but I'll get to that more in depth when I cover miasma).

Toxic lash. Again, I don't really approve of this skill as a whole. Nevertheless, it is powerful. It gives you a high boost to the amount of damage your melee does, guarantees spore bursts (which is kinda pointless considering DE finally made spores easy to pop at the same time they added this change...), and the damage it adds is toxin, meaning it goes straight through shielding making it very lethal against corpus. Additionally toxin procs and high damage melee/crits go really well together, so if you can find a high damage-per hit melee it becomes incredibly lethal to just hit and forget a target, meaning you can keep more on the move. Since toxic lash gives you a 100% chance to proc that toxin, status chance on your melee becomes pointless for this concept's sake, opening her up to even more melee weapons. This is even further boosted by saryn's passive that extends status proc duration. When toxic lash is active your melee weapon also blocks more damage when parrying, giving her increased survivability. And here's some more of that "synergy" they focused so much on with her kit- when you smack someone who has spores on them and a spore bursts- you get 2 energy back. It doesn't seem like a lot but if you're hitting large crowds or lots of enemies quickly, it adds up and it can be used for any of her skills, channeled melee for life strike- or molt with augment to give you some health back. It also makes quick thinking a good choice to use.

Miasma... I would have preferred if they changed how the skill itself worked rather than just changing it to mechanically rely on other skills for damage but oh well. As mentioned before when a molt is nearby Miasma causes that molt to explode dealing more damage in addition to adding more damage to Miasma (affected by how much health the molt has lost). Miasma also gets a 100% damage bonus for both viral and toxin procs on an enemy, giving you up to 300% of your original damage. Miasma is best used as a finisher for a large crowd that has been spored and hit with a wide hitting melee like Mios/whip weapons that are imbued with toxic lash. Alternatively since it stuns enemies it hits for a decent period of time it can be good when range is added to it as a stun that can be used to save your team for a few seconds so they can regroup/recover. Also good for saving pod, or other defense targets.

[Lt.Cuddles]

1 minute ago, Stratego89 said:

I don't play Saryn a whole lot, and I've never used her for sortie level melee only (in fact I don't approve of DE's push to turn her into a melee focused frame)- but here are my suggestions.

First off, her best skill is her spores- without a doubt. It's an all consuming plague that you rarely have to recast that spreads among all enemies within range of any you pop, constantly halving enemy health from it's max to make them weakened targets, in addition to the insane amounts of DoT toxin damage/procs they create. It's best to have a weapon you feel comfortable using to pop her spores- and if you use Toxic Lash your melee has a 100% chance of popping them, so using a large range melee who can hit a lot of people at once is very very good for this.

Her molt IMO is lacking. It just doesn't pull aggro hard enough when you ditch it. IMO the best use of it is with the augment to restore health, but that might not be necessary if you are running a melee build with life strike. It really depends on what you prefer but life strike doesn't come with the (limited) aggro draw away from you molt creates. In fact you actually have to put yourself in more danger to get that health back. Additionally since your damage falls off the health you get from life strike does too, meaning it starts costing more and more energy to heal less and less health- and you also get health back slower while also losing health faster. TL;DR the augment is really better since it can be used in any situation, but it depends on your melee and personal preference, as well as the situations you'll be in. Another thing to remember about molt is that you can cast molt and then cast spore ON the molt and any enemies that attack it- ranged or otherwise- will be infected with spores. Meaning one spore cast gets you more initial targets, and spread about. How you should cast spores is dependent on where the enemies are around you. One final thing- when you cast Miasma while your molt is nearby/in range, your damage is heavily amplified (same goes for if enemies are just toxin/viral proc'd, but I'll get to that more in depth when I cover miasma).

Toxic lash. Again, I don't really approve of this skill as a whole. Nevertheless, it is powerful. It gives you a high boost to the amount of damage your melee does, guarantees spore bursts (which is kinda pointless considering DE finally made spores easy to pop at the same time they added this change...), and the damage it adds is toxin, meaning it goes straight through shielding making it very lethal against corpus. Additionally toxin procs and high damage melee/crits go really well together, so if you can find a high damage-per hit melee it becomes incredibly lethal to just hit and forget a target, meaning you can keep more on the move. Since toxic lash gives you a 100% chance to proc that toxin, status chance on your melee becomes pointless for this concept's sake, opening her up to even more melee weapons. This is even further boosted by saryn's passive that extends status proc duration. When toxic lash is active your melee weapon also blocks more damage when parrying, giving her increased survivability. And here's some more of that "synergy" they focused so much on with her kit- when you smack someone who has spores on them and a spore bursts- you get 2 energy back. It doesn't seem like a lot but if you're hitting large crowds or lots of enemies quickly, it adds up and it can be used for any of her skills, channeled melee for life strike- or molt with augment to give you some health back. It also makes quick thinking a good choice to use.

Miasma... I would have preferred if they changed how the skill itself worked rather than just changing it to mechanically rely on other skills for damage but oh well. As mentioned before when a molt is nearby Miasma causes that molt to explode dealing more damage in addition to adding more damage to Miasma (affected by how much health the molt has lost). Miasma also gets a 100% damage bonus for both viral and toxin procs on an enemy, giving you up to 300% of your original damage. Miasma is best used as a finisher for a large crowd that has been spored and hit with a wide hitting melee like Mios/whip weapons that are imbued with toxic lash. Alternatively since it stuns enemies it hits for a decent period of time it can be good when range is added to it as a stun that can be used to save your team for a few seconds so they can regroup/recover. Also good for saving pod, or other defense targets.

So what do you think of the idea of making the molts into a somewhat tanky sort of "attack molt" that benefits from toxic lash and your melee weapon and its mods, and it would also carry spores on itself, allowing you to have something that can draw agro for you, maybe they could also taunt enemies and we could even change the augment with it so that you'd heal for 20% of the damage they deal? Just an idea~