Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[motorfirebox]

4 hours ago, Madkap said:

I figured I'd post this here, since the rework is still fresh, but it could go in the Specter's of the Rail thread just as well: Mag, immediately following the rework was actually in a pretty good spot. She had good damage in Magnetize that scaled incredibly well with certain weapons. She was viable against all factions.

With the nullifier changes (i.e. a nullifier bubble dispels abilities which it touches such as Frost Snowglobe or Mag bubble), she's taken a huge hit to that viability. Nullifier bubbles dispelling things which they touch is good conceptually, and for an ability like Frost's Snowglobe this adds compelling gameplay: keep the nullifiers away from the bubble. This isn't the case for Mag.

 Mag's damage (and to a large extent her survivability)  come from her Magnetize ability. The way she uses her bubble is a lot different from the way Frost uses his: she has to put it on an enemy (so placement is to some extent limited), she wants enemies to be in or near it, and she can't shoot through it. None of that lends well to counterplay against Nullifiers.

I've been playing Mag a lot since the rework, but she feels awful against the reworked Nullifiers.

I agree with that. Nullies got a huge, huge, huge buff with this update, and it's absolute murder against basically any frame that relies on powers for survivability.

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, Madkap said:

I've been playing Mag a lot since the rework, but she feels awful against the reworked Nullifiers.

No frame should really be intrinsically better or worse against nullifiers, since they are designed to remove powers from the equation when dealing with them.  Getting upset because "I lost my cheese against the anti-cheese unit" is nonsensical.  

[Dracario]

5 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

No frame should really be intrinsically better or worse against nullifiers, since they are designed to remove powers from the equation when dealing with them.  Getting upset because "I lost my cheese against the anti-cheese unit" is nonsensical.  

The thing is, riding nullifiers is extremely hard when bombards and HGs spawn right next to you then immediately ground slams/rockets you to knock you down and the nullfier stays just out of reach where an Ancient stands preventing a chance to even try to kill the problem (fissure problems).

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, Dracario said:

The thing is, riding nullifiers is extremely hard when bombards and HGs spawn right next to you then immediately ground slams/rockets you to knock you down and the nullfier stays just out of reach where an Ancient stands preventing a chance to even try to kill the problem (fissure problems).

That's neither here nor there.  The presence of Nullifiers means that you're not supposed to be able to simply make the problem go away using powers.  This takes powers out of the equation; they are irrelevant here.  If certain powers can conveniently make Nullifiers a non-threat, then they need to be fixed and not the other way around.  

[Comradicus_Prime]

Gotta love this Mag rework!

 

You can shred armor permanently now, making her more effective versus Grineer!
Bullet Attractor made cheaper, and freezes most enemies in place, dealing DoT to any more that walk in!

 

Polarize nerfed with higher cost

Polarize nerfed with wave instead of instant

Polarize no longer scales...

Meaning it has now joined Bullet Attractor in overall uselessness.

 

But wait, there's more!
Due to recent nullifier buffs that were made because... I don't have a good reason why they were buffed... Magnetize bubbles, you know those things you cast on enemies in chokepoints, now detonate early if a Nullifier walks over!

How wonderful! First polarize is nerfed to the ground for end-game competitiveness, not Magnetize is being given the shaft too!
And we can't forget, crush is still more or less useless for the cost at anything other than lower levels.

 

And energy is still a problem if you don't have the right focus on hand.

 

All in all, one step forward, about three steps back.

[Dracario]

33 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

That's neither here nor there.  The presence of Nullifiers means that you're not supposed to be able to simply make the problem go away using powers.  This takes powers out of the equation; they are irrelevant here.  If certain powers can conveniently make Nullifiers a non-threat, then they need to be fixed and not the other way around.  

Im not saying the use of powers should be able to kill nullifiers. I'm saying with weapons alone, and given the surroundings of fissures and how fast they spawn enemies; Nullfiers can litter the entire map with equal amount of bombards and heavy gunners to CC the entire squad to the point where the squad can only hope the rift closes which in turn wastes relics and a reward. Nullifiers are enemies to bypass around, but unlike in the old void keys, they don't spawn with a bunch of CC heavy enemies, they are spawned distantly with lower tier enemies.

[RealPandemonium]

13 minutes ago, Dracario said:

Im not saying the use of powers should be able to kill nullifiers. I'm saying with weapons alone, and given the surroundings of fissures and how fast they spawn enemies; Nullfiers can litter the entire map with equal amount of bombards and heavy gunners to CC the entire squad to the point where the squad can only hope the rift closes which in turn wastes relics and a reward. Nullifiers are enemies to bypass around, but unlike in the old void keys, they don't spawn with a bunch of CC heavy enemies, they are spawned distantly with lower tier enemies.

What does that have to do with Mag in particular, though?  My initial comments were in response to the guy claiming that Mag was somehow bad against Nullifiers.  Every frame is supposed to be "bad" against them, and Mag is no exception.  That's all I was trying to say.  

[Dracario]

2 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

What does that have to do with Mag in particular, though?  My initial comments were in response to the guy claiming that Mag was somehow bad against Nullifiers.  Every frame is supposed to be "bad" against them, and Mag is no exception.  That's all I was trying to say.  

Given that Mag is supposed to be a CC frame, it's completely shut down by nullifiers. Magnetize is detonated earlier than supposed to when Nullifiers touch the bubble, forcing her to go into the bubble and kill it or shoot the bubble and then kill it. Mag is incredibly squishy as she sports barely any health but a ton of shields that can be bypassed easily through slash and toxin procs. Seeing how a nullifier is never alone, mag can be easily shot up by a nearby Tech, Bursa, Elite Crewman, etc. I suggested the shards can be picked up to increase shields so that mag has more survivability in levels >50.

Also frames with more defense such as inaros, Chroma, Valkyr, etc are good against nullfiers as they have enough health and armor to walk right in the bubble to kill them.Mag has little armor to deal with nullifiers safely. Shooting the bubbles wastes ammo and time that can be used with dealing other enemies So mag is incredibly less viable in a team environment and solo.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

What does that have to do with Mag in particular, though?  My initial comments were in response to the guy claiming that Mag was somehow bad against Nullifiers.  Every frame is supposed to be "bad" against them, and Mag is no exception.  That's all I was trying to say.  

Here's the particular for Mag: Other frames can generally pop a Nullifier bubble before it comes close enough to touch them while still enjoying the full extent of the power they're seeking to protect. Even a Valkyr can claw it down during Hysteria if careful, while still being invulnerable.

If the Magnetise is placed in a doorway or other hard chokepoint, Mag or her allies cannot do this without sacrificing the function of her power. She either exposes herself by going past the Magnetise bubble radius to shoot the Nullifier bubble, or she cannot shrink and pop it because, obviously, she can't just fire through the Magnetise. Or out of it, even when she's stood inside (the Snowglobe equivalent - Frost can fire out. Mag can't even do that).

 

Before, it was slightly buggy but at worst the Nullibubble had to overlap the centre of the Magnetise (cover the initial target) in order to make it pop. In most circumstances it would be possible, epecially with a projectile weapon, to graze the shield before it got that far. Projectiles orbiting, or hitscan carefully aiming at the right tangent to the Magnetise sphere, would path into the advancing bubble. Now you just lose it unceremoniously.

[Dracario]

Also my sense of time has been deceiving me but Magnetize's duration is dramatically decreased at random points and explodes prematurely. I was playing Hieacron and i placed Magnetize on a Ancient Disruptor and it died soon after. Then the timer shot down to 3 seconds from the 10 i usually had and the bubble exploded. Is this a feature or bug perhaps?

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, Dracario said:

Also my sense of time has been deceiving me but Magnetize's duration is dramatically decreased at random points and explodes prematurely. I was playing Hieacron and i placed Magnetize on a Ancient Disruptor and it died soon after. Then the timer shot down to 3 seconds from the 10 i usually had and the bubble exploded. Is this a feature or bug perhaps?

That's just Ancient Disruptors doing their thing. Along with the -90% damage from powers buff, the aura also drastically reduces power durations on affected targets.

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Dracario]

13 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

That's just Ancient Disruptors doing their thing. Along with the -90% damage from powers buff, the aura also drastically reduces power durations on affected targets.

 

That's a feature? Wow i never knew that, then again, infested aren't much of a problem and they can be dealt with quickly.

As far as suggestions go in earlier post

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/652762-mag-rework-feedback-post-update-1813/?do=findComment&comment=7485310

How does this balance pan out in terms of viability?

[Comradicus_Prime]

23 hours ago, Dracario said:

Pull

 

-Keep it the same but allow special interaction with Magnetize. Aiming at Magnetize will cause enemies be pulled into the bubble up to a determined range (can be increased by power range)

Magnetize

-The pull is a bit stronger, enough so that slower enemy units can't escape like it's intended for. Make it have special interaction with each type of gun. Hit-Scan weapons deal direct damage to enemies inside the bubble, Beam Weapons increase the DoT, Projectiles have innate punch through due to the rapid velocity of magnetize. Also let Magnetize be castable on surfaces and not enemies, this will fix the bug where Magnetize will cost energy but not activate due the enemy dying immediately after casting it.

Polarize

-Give it SOME scaling. As long as Power Strength mods cap it at 70% strip (so that only one teammate can equip Corrosive projection or Shield Disruption and can be used for solo). Allow it to affect ALL enemies caught inside the cast like Nova's. Some enemies somehow avoid the damage and strip entirely when Polarize is casted. I've tested this inside the test area). Shards still drop and for each shard dropped is based on every 5-10% of the shield/armor stripped (can be altered at any time, this is just a suggestion). Shards only interact with...

Crush

-The more shards around Mag the more powerful this ability is. Passively shards can be collected to increase Warframe armor by flat or by percentage (of armor stripped). This move is still an AoE nuke but more reliable than it is now and before. The idea is to shoot the shards into Magnetize as Crush will add damage to those shards (additive or multiplicative).

 

Also buff the power max with her, the way most people would build her is putting her in an energy crisis. Put it at like 500 with a fully ranked Flow. I wouldn't mind my suggested interaction with Pull and magnetize be a replacement for Greedy Pull because of mag's new passive.

I like the ideas. Provides more synergy than current Mag has, so not bad on that department.

I like the suggestion on Pull, nothing wrong with that.

The fact that Magnetize does not keep enemies sucked in sometimes is a real pain in the &#!. I'd say have Magnetize work on both enemies and surfaces though, so if you really need some tanky Grineer boss dead, you cast it on him/her for increased damage on that target. The different interactions of weapon types is nice, I like that a bunch.

Polarize very much needs scaling back. The lack of it really hurts Mag's end game reliability. Also, we best make sure that cap of 70% strip isn't the hardest to get to, otherwise we are right back to the old Mag builds and Magnetize gets forgotten. However, for 70% strip, that does usually weaken enemies enough that the scaled damage finishes them off, making the ability worth that 75 power cost.

For the Crush changes, I am a bit curious on how that would work out. If she passively collects shards to make her progressively more tanky (Not a bad idea, actually a really good one), how would she then use them for Crush? Would crush kinda work like Scarab Armor on Inaros, where he can charge it up, but if he casts it on an enemy, a portion of it is taken away? I think that would probably be best, and it works out in making Crush more viable late game. Been collecting up a bunch of shards? Use some of those bad boys to wipe a particularly nasty room!

And the buffed energy I am 100% for. My biggest problem with Mag is not toxin or slash procs, I have medi-ray on Carrier to help with that. It is not shields, that is what Shield Transference is for. Nope, it's running out of energy, because Mag shares the lowest base amount, with no real easy way to get it back. At least Saryn can run Rage reasonably well. Rage on a Mag just seems silly.

 

All in all, this would be a far better set of re-worked abilities than the one we got. In her current state, the only reason I use Mag on 90% of my missions is because I love her to bits. I can get more CC stun off of Excalibur, more boss take-down potential out of Rhino, better aoe nuke out of Saryn, and better ult out of... Just about any other CC frame in the game.

And the shutting down of choke-points? Not after the buff to the nulli's. Why they were buffed, I have no idea.

[Madkap]

15 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

No frame should really be intrinsically better or worse against nullifiers, since they are designed to remove powers from the equation when dealing with them.  Getting upset because "I lost my cheese against the anti-cheese unit" is nonsensical.  

I should have been more clear; Mag feels awful against factions with Nullifiers. In high level content, she can't keep her bubble up long enough to do anything meaningful. Also, she was just reworked, so if she has any "cheese" left in her kit, it wasn't a very good rework.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Today I learned that Nullifiers remove my Ivara's cloak bubbles and even her Dashwires under the new system.

So that's my Mag unviable, and my Ivara got the shaft.

F*** me running, the "No Fun Allowed police" gag is more accurate than ever. What in the nine hells was a dashwire harming in the game? Jesus.

Edited July 10, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Dan1lo]

Mag used to be one of my favorite frames pre-rework and now it has got EVEN BETTER

Magnetize is a mobile shield with low cost and you can cast up to 4 times! (the effects on death are awesome, too!)

Polarize used to be amazing because it COMPLETELY BURST DOWN all corpus, and it got SLIGHTLY worse now, but it's balanced! I can still rip many of corpus' armies AND the added armor reduction effects are AMAZING! Absolutely loved the rework on this one! (Also leaving shrapnel behind, making other abilities more powerful!)

Crush has gotten balanced and useful, since it locks enemies into place, holds new enemies with each pulse and deals 3 pulses of damage! (scalable with shrapnel, if I'm not mistaken). Not the most killer of finisher abilites, but I always feel good bursting it every once in a while!

Pull hasn't quite hit the point, yet. The energy drop chance bonus for kills isn't good because it doesn't have that much damage, and even on low levels it doesn't feel like it's 33% drop chance (lots of enemies dragged around, no energy coming...)

All in all, I feel a great ammount of synergy between the skills and THAT'S some great warframe design, in my opinion! I feel like using every single skill of mag depending on the situation and it has surely hit that favorite frame spot once again!

[Comradicus_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Dan1lo said:

Mag used to be one of my favorite frames pre-rework and now it has got EVEN BETTER

Magnetize is a mobile shield with low cost and you can cast up to 4 times! (the effects on death are awesome, too!)

Polarize used to be amazing because it COMPLETELY BURST DOWN all corpus, and it got SLIGHTLY worse now, but it's balanced! I can still rip many of corpus' armies AND the added armor reduction effects are AMAZING! Absolutely loved the rework on this one! (Also leaving shrapnel behind, making other abilities more powerful!)

Crush has gotten balanced and useful, since it locks enemies into place, holds new enemies with each pulse and deals 3 pulses of damage! (scalable with shrapnel, if I'm not mistaken). Not the most killer of finisher abilites, but I always feel good bursting it every once in a while!

Pull hasn't quite hit the point, yet. The energy drop chance bonus for kills isn't good because it doesn't have that much damage, and even on low levels it doesn't feel like it's 33% drop chance (lots of enemies dragged around, no energy coming...)

All in all, I feel a great ammount of synergy between the skills and THAT'S some great warframe design, in my opinion! I feel like using every single skill of mag depending on the situation and it has surely hit that favorite frame spot once again!

This is only really effective at low levels without nullifiers...

Magnetize isn't such a low cost anymore when you take into consideration the fact that it is 1/6 of her energy with a max normal flow. And with the nullifier buff, the ability is shafted any time one of several touches it.

Polarize used to be worth the current cost with bursting down all corpus, that was what made Mag, well, Mag. You brought her to lay waste to an army of Corpus like no other frame. It is not slightly worse, because of one crucial factor. It went from percentage of shields stripped to a raw amount of armor and shields stripped. That right there is very bad. It means that come late game, with higher level enemies, Mag no longer kills them, only debuffs them a bit. This is a big deal, as it ripped her out of her niche, without any good offer in return. The added armor strip is nice, I will grant you that, but the lack of scale on the ability, plus the added cost, is way too hard of a nerf. The scaling most certainly needs to be brought back to even remotely warrant the cost of the ability.

Crush is still kind of meh. It's only feeling better now because polarize got shafted so hard and it has slight synergy with Magnetize. This is only slight, and magnetize bubbles will not cover all the people you would need the bonus for.

Quite ironically, I find Pull to be the one that is very good where it is, unlike you. It is a cheep CC that can cover a wide area in the direction of the cast. It's not really meant to kill enemies, just CC them away. It's not as effective at other stuns, but it is good bang for your energy buck.

 

The true amount of synergy Mag has is... Lack luster at best. Yeah, her abilities work with each other now, but only slightly. Saryn's at least combined to maintain her aoe nuke machine. Mag lost hers, and until something is done to help bring Polarize back, I feel she may not get that nuke back. Her concept I too enjoy, but her current design is terrible. All due to her powers not really working hard enough for their costs, aside from Pull of course. Magnetize is deleted by Nullifier bubbles, and it can't do nearly as much damage as promised, unless you are trying to focus down 1 target (No longer the Capture targets anymore, because apparently they are better than the Stalker at avoiding Tenno powers). Polarize was savagely beaten by the nerf stick, and given more versatility as a consolation prize. Crush is still a pretty poor ultimate for one of the (Previously, not anymore) great CC frames.

I respect your opinion, and at low levels you are correct. But when the situation becomes more than just level 30 enemies... Mag is just another Hydroid. And at least he can block chokepoints and give additional loot and health to allies. Mag has a personal carrier, personal shields, and an augment mod I haven't dared to touch since I got it, because it does not offer enough for the cost.

[Dan1lo]

46 minutes ago, ExteriorJungle4 said:

But when the situation becomes more than just level 30 enemies...

dear ExteriorJungle4, I adapt my tactics to the enemy in hand. The problem with nullifiers is that people either want to dispatch them at a distance or are too afraid to close in for the kill.

I recently did missions on high level corpus planets and the first thing I do is prioritize nullifiers entering their bubble and slashing or hitting with a ice/impact weapon. After I dispatch the main nullifier, I burst a polarize, shield transference heals me up and I get rid of more enemies.

You don't need magnetize to work it's full duration for it to be worth, and although nullifiers become really popular in higher levels, priorizing that target over others brings a crucial difference to survivability.

If what you want is for every frame to have that one particular nuke that works wonders in a certain situation, now that's ANOTHER point. Which seems to be the general wish... It's really cool to have that 1 nuke that burst everything on the screen in a situational basis, but then every player would just pick frame X for Y situation and keep bursting and rotating that... and that's bad game design.

[Comradicus_Prime]

8 minutes ago, Dan1lo said:

You don't need magnetize to work it's full duration for it to be worth, and although nullifiers become really popular in higher levels, priorizing that target over others brings a crucial difference to survivability.

There is only so much prioritization that can be done. In the event of say, Bursas and sapping ospreys, getting close enough to kill one of the nully's is easier said than done. In the void, you get to contend with Bombards and Heavy Gunners and most importantly Ancient Healers. In the worst case scenario, there are multiple of all four in one area, which happens unfortunately often. In these cases, the Ancient may keep the Nully alive too long, and even if he is dispatched, the HG and Bombards work you over.

 

11 minutes ago, Dan1lo said:

If what you want is for every frame to have that one particular nuke that works wonders in a certain situation, now that's ANOTHER point. Which seems to be the general wish... It's really cool to have that 1 nuke that burst everything on the screen in a situational basis, but then every player would just pick frame X for Y situation and keep bursting and rotating that... and that's bad game design.

For having every frame have access to an ability that nukes in certain situations for every situation was not what I was going for. I was going more for Mag was capable of turning the tables on high-level corpus. Pre-rework, if the Corpus had Augmented shields in a sortie, you brought a Mag along to help deal with them. Mag was given a spot-light, where she was at her best. At current, I dread seeing those sorties, because I still bring Mag, and my impact is negligible at best.

 

And for more of a comedic sense, that level 9999 alert celebrating Tennocon. Imagine the old Mag back, just for that one mission. That would have been beautiful. That would have been hilarious and fun. Thus far, I have not had as much fun in my Mag, just because Polarize was nerfed to the ground, Magnetize is okay but is at risk in anything but Grineer and Infested missions (A place where low max-health Mag is not the best suited to), and Crush continues to be lack-luster for the cost.

 

Honestly, a large part of the hate I feel for the rework was the combination of a cost increase of Polarize and a massive nerf of scalability into late-game. Even Magnetize has its issues, because most of the time enemies just walk through as if there is no suction at all. Meaning they come out slightly wounded at best, if they don't manage to kill me, while inside the bubble of all places. That was certainly a weird event for both me and that Elite Lancer.

I do like your respect on this conversation though. We have disagreements on Mag post-rework for sure, but at least we keep this for the most part out of the Salt mines.

[motorfirebox]

The thing with nullifiers is, they're bad and should be changed so that they are less bad. So as irked as I am about Mag's utility vs nullies getting seriously kicked in the mouth by this latest update, the problem isn't Mag and shouldn't be resolved by changing Mag. It should be resolved by changing nullifiers.

[Comradicus_Prime]

5 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

The thing with nullifiers is, they're bad and should be changed so that they are less bad. So as irked as I am about Mag's utility vs nullies getting seriously kicked in the mouth by this latest update, the problem isn't Mag and shouldn't be resolved by changing Mag. It should be resolved by changing nullifiers.

Why not do both? Mag needs a buff... Again... And nully's need a nerf... Again.

[motorfirebox]

I think Mag is mostly fine. What buffs she needs don't really have anything to do with nullifiers specifically.

[Comradicus_Prime]

1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

I think Mag is mostly fine. What buffs she needs don't really have anything to do with nullifiers specifically.

No, not nullifiers specifically, just quality of life improvements. Like making Polarize scale again. If it's gonna cost more, perhaps it should not be less effective to a significant degree.

[RealPandemonium]

I think people need to keep in mind that every warframe has access to basic close-range knockdowns in the form of jump kicks, bullet jump aoe, and melee slam attacks.  It's very possible to enter a Nullifier bubble at high speed, knock down the most dangerous enemies, and dispatch the Nullifier before they can get up.  If those enemies have ground slams you can bait them or roll through them (or melee block) and then proceed.  It's only when enemies get into the ridiculous 70+ range that this becomes less reasonable, but that is an issue with overtuned enemy levels and not Nullifiers themselves.  At reasonable enemy levels, Nullifiers are totally reasonable as well. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I think people need to keep in mind that every warframe has access to basic close-range knockdowns in the form of jump kicks, bullet jump aoe, and melee slam attacks.  It's very possible to enter a Nullifier bubble at high speed, knock down the most dangerous enemies, and dispatch the Nullifier before they can get up.  If those enemies have ground slams you can bait them or roll through them (or melee block) and then proceed.  It's only when enemies get into the ridiculous 70+ range that this becomes less reasonable, but that is an issue with overtuned enemy levels and not Nullifiers themselves.  At reasonable enemy levels, Nullifiers are totally reasonable as well. 

Like people are saying over in the Nullifier thread, the problem isn't inability to fight/kill Nullifiers. It's the fact that you have to do so in a restrictive lose-lose manner. "Just entering the bubble" forces you to lose buffs. "Just shoot the bubble" falls short when your weapons don't behave correctly (low ROF, shotguns). That, plus the common nature of nullifiers, makes a terrible unit. The possibility to fight something in some way does not invalidate it being unfun or unfair to other approaches.

They should be split up into different unit types; we already have the first one: the "beefy close-range cast denial" Comba/Scrambus (with better counterplay, headshooting the helmets). Follow that up with a power immunisation sphere unit, which still leaves targets vulnerable to bullets (Arctic Eximi globes already cover that), an ally-cleansing/enemy-buff-dispelling unit (that doesn't delete harmless objects like goddamn Ivara ziplines), and make them all appropriately uncommon to rare spawns depending on impact and you have the start of diverse enemies with compelling target priority differences depending on squad needs.

 

Saying 'nullifiers are the only unit that stops us cheesing' actually highlights the problem. If one unit is the only bastion of anticheese, then it's binary gameplay. If Nullifier then no. Kill Nullifier then yes, until new Nullifier.

Edited July 11, 2016 by EDYinnit