Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Wolfnrun]

21 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

i just had an Idea. what if we could throw the speed buff drop and use it as a stun grenade (as ball lightning)? would save a lot of time having to run to allies in a jam.

But wouldn't the corpus be upset with us? If that was a thing?  Eh, forget em 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[Toramaru]

3 hours ago, SamuraiWMT said:

I've been following this thread on and off, and there are a lot of good ideas in here. I just thought that I might as well post my own ideas as well. I've been using Volt quite a lot these few days, but I wouldn't consider what I've done as testing; I've only been doing some casual play, so some of the problems about him falling off late game I was not able to experience first hand. I feel that Volt as he is right now is indecisive. He is a mix between being a caster damage frame and being a support frame. DE should decide which one he is and just go all in: no compromising. I thought I would provide some of my own insight on what DE could do to make Volt a great damage frame or a good support frame.

Caster Volt:
Shock - Shock is fine as it is now it just needs to be more involved in Volt's skill set.
Speed - Volt throws down a speed pad in front of him.  While he has the speed buff, he electrocutes the ground creating a path that other Tenno can step on to get the buff, similar to Nezha's Fire Walker ability.
    Shocked Speed: Allow Volt to Shock the speed pad and have it increase  the speed buff he and fellow Tenno receive.
Energy Shield/Riot Shield - Get rid of the movement decrease, the primary restriction, and the energy drain based on distance traveled, but increase the base energy drain to compensate.
    Shocked Energy Shield/Riot Shield: This is fine as it is.
Discharge - Make the CC this skill provides more consistent.
    Shocked Tesla Coil: Deal more damage.
Explanation:
The primary idea behind Caster Volt is that we don't need to build for Power Strength because Shock will compensate for the lack of it.  This will allow us to focus on the other stats he needs.  However, for builds based on power strength the increase in power that shock provides wouldn't be that noticeable.  

Support Volt:
Shock - Combine with Shock Trooper.
Speed - Go back to how it originally was, and increase the base speed received, or use the method described in Caster Volt.
Energy Shield/Riot Shield - Don't decrease the size of the shield when picked up.
Discharge - Increase damage Tesla Coils take from allies.
Explanation:
Volt acts a support, so he doesn't need any power strength; however for this type of Volt to work the range on Capacitance needs to be bigger.  I have a hard time giving overshield to allies because the range of it is so short.

Well, that's the gist of if.  I hope I properly conveyed my ideas, and that these ideas may serve as a base for other ideas. Thanks for reading.  

I don't agree. Being able to build at our convenience is way better. Setting Volt on a specific path sounds like bad design.

And Volt-wise I'd rather have CC oriented skills, as DE doesn't seem inclined to enable Frame alone play on end game (not dependent on weaponry). And I don't know if they should. Could be cool, but still, game mechanics, specially energy, don't work well enough so you can forget weapons.

Again, I melee with anything, so I like CC better, as it enables melee builds on the end game, and conclave (especially interested in conclave, can't wait until PvP gets a rework)!

@EnderDDT

Edited June 3, 2016 by Toramaru
@enderddt got stuck there and I can't remove through the mobile

[RaiZu]

This is the only rework that I can say is bad. You made us curious when you said you wanted to make him a "real alternative to gunplay" but now he's mostly utility.

His ult needs a lot more range and damage to the targets hit, the tesla mechanic could be ok but maybe the tics should be arcs (that would extend like the original ult), or maybe implement something like equinox to buff up the damage for it.

And if he should be a real alternative to gunplay then you should be able to kill everything by casting, so I would change his passive a lot.

 

I think his passive should be something like "Energize" where each ability cast give volt a stack of "Energize" up to a cap, and this buff should increase his efficiency so you would be able to cast shock and his ult more often

[Wolfnrun]

3 minutes ago, RaiZu said:

This is the only rework that I can say is bad. You made us curious when you said you wanted to make him a "real alternative to gunplay" but now he's mostly utility.

His ult needs a lot more range and damage to the targets hit, the tesla mechanic could be ok but maybe the tics should be arcs (that would extend like the original ult), or maybe implement something like equinox to buff up the damage for it.

And if he should be a real alternative to gunplay then you should be able to kill everything by casting, so I would change his passive a lot.

 

I think his passive should be something like "Energize" where each ability cast give volt a stack of "Energize" up to a cap, and this buff should increase his efficiency so you would be able to cast shock and his ult more often

I find it funny how the abilities benefit weapons more then other abilities ... increased reload speed,more crit damage, a pinch of electric damage from ES...Benefits gunplay not alternative 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[Toramaru]

10 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

I find it funny how the abilities benefit weapons more then other abilities ... increased reload speed,more crit damage, a pinch of electric damage from ES...Benefits gunplay not alternative 

With almost no real benefit at all, considering how scaling goes.

[Toramaru]

10 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

I find it funny how the abilities benefit weapons more then other abilities ... increased reload speed,more crit damage, a pinch of electric damage from ES...Benefits gunplay not alternative 

With almost no real benefit at all, considering how scaling goes.

[Aquasurge]

Just now, Toramaru said:

With almost no real benefit at all, considering how scaling goes.

say what?

[Wolfnrun]

1 hour ago, Toramaru said:

With almost no real benefit at all, considering how scaling goes.

Well, the crit damage and melee attack speed increase are good, the only thing that is barely noticeable is the added electric damage. Still a buff to guns, not an alternative 

[Cytobel]

It might be more accurate to say that the benefits are vastly outweighed by annoying, ill-fitting design choices.  It feels like this is a perfect case study of too many cooks spoiling the broth.

Honestly, I got the real impression that it's more about "all hands on deck" right now than actually reworking things.  U19 is such a big thing that the game is coming apart under the weight of all these alterations.

I would prefer to hear that U19 was being delayed by a few weeks so that these issues could be fixed.

[Aquasurge]

2 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

It might be more accurate to say that the benefits are vastly outweighed by annoying, ill-fitting design choices.  It feels like this is a perfect case study of too many cooks spoiling the broth.

Honestly, I got the real impression that it's more about "all hands on deck" right now than actually reworking things.  U19 is such a big thing that the game is coming apart under the weight of all these alterations.

I would prefer to hear that U19 was being delayed by a few weeks so that these issues could be fixed.

same. as much as i want a new cinematic quest, i would also like to play it with my favourite frame, volt.

[Toramaru]

4 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

say what?

Reload Speed is somewhat useless due to the way it works, the passive is interesting, but currently nothing but a joke, and we already had crit damage.

[Brasten]

36 minutes ago, Toramaru said:

Reload Speed is somewhat useless due to the way it works

That depends heavily on the weapon and how much Power Strength you are willing to commit to it. For weapons with longer reload times (3+ seconds) you start to feel the difference as you creep past 150% strength. Knocking off quarter of second or more means more steady outgoing fire. Cutting a full second off the Strun Wraith (at the top end of silly weapon reload times) just for having Speed running is nice.

However the fact that the Speed Coil is nearly invisible almost no one on the team befits from the small buffs Speed is handing out. 

Regardless, the point stands that the synergies on Volt's powers work better with weapons then between his other powers. Frankly it would be a mistake to force him into purely a "real alternative to gunplay" at this point and with how relatlivtly well is over all kit works (with need for tweaks and polish still).

The biggest problem was Overload, and now that Discharge (turning enemies into shock towers) some real work can go into adjusting the numbers and performance elsewhere... of course once Speed Coils get punted back into the Void of really bad ideas that should never have been.

[hukurokuju5]

feels like there wasn't a rework at all 

visual tweaks, shield number cap, riot shield, some damage and stun duration on 4

[FitzSimmons]

4 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

feels like there wasn't a rework at all 

visual tweaks, shield number cap, riot shield, some damage and stun duration on 4

you forgot shield now immune to aoe attack, "again".

[Cytobel]

I've been thinking about this Volt situation.  My worry is essentially this: between rage posts, qq-ing, and walls of text DE may not understand what we mean when we say there's something wrong with Volt.  I believe I have an example that can cover this:

Think back to the Saryn rework.  Imagine that Miasma isn't gaining the buffs to damage from toxin and viral procs, but it's destroying spores and Molts.  Imagine that Toxic Lash has its duration, but it drains energy every time you hit something.  Imagine that Molt only acts as a decoy to enemies that were in LoS when you cast it.  Now imagine that none of Saryn's damage gains bonuses against at least 70% of the enemies in game, but instead faces every form of damage mitigation there is.

What I'm saying is this: Volt's skillset has seen nerfing that seems totally nonsensical and actively counterproductive to his survival.  Buffs to his kit feel like they're scattergun and without motive or theme.  Truely amazing and useful components (like Riot Shield) feel like they were "balanced" after the fact by someone more concerned with attaching drawbacks than improving on a troubled 'Frame.

TL;DR: it seems we got the worse half of a decent rework, without elements to tie it together and lacking in final polishing (and Ball Lightning).  We need fewer "mitigating factors" per ability, especially when much of what Volt already does is so situational.  And if Volt is to be "potent" or "tactical" at all, then he must fit that theme.

P.S., I hope I'm not being offensive here.  I really just feel that there is some degree of communication about this issue lacking, so I'm trying to do my part.

[FitzSimmons]

7 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

TL;DR: it seems we got the worse half of a decent rework, without elements to tie it together and lacking in final polishing (and Ball Lightning).  We need fewer "mitigating factors" per ability, especially when much of what Volt already does is so situational.  And if Volt is to be "potent" or "tactical" at all, then he must fit that theme.

what is so situational about volt?

[Cytobel]

1 hour ago, FitzSimmons said:

what is so situational about volt?

Rollers, Latchers, and Regulators.  These are the enemies you're actually effective against.  That's it.

Corpus robotics have shields, which you have to burn through before you can hurt them.  For whatever reason, it seems like all Corpus are equally squishy once you're past the shields, and Toxin is just about as effective against Robotics due to shield bypass.  Also, Corpus Nullifiers.  They ruin everything.

You need to exist in a constant state of Speed OR be behind a shield throwing Discharge.  Else if, you're a squishy target facing basically unlimited hordes of enemies with a damage type that's probably the most ineffective in Warframe.  Also, your enemies scale; you don't.

Volt Speed worked (better even) before the rework, so nothing was improved there.  Shield now blocks AoE damage, actually making it really quite nice.  Shock is, at best, a pocket CC to use when you're reloading.  Discharge is great IF you're allowed to cast it (stupid ground lock) AND IF enemies don't break out early.

Basically, you're not good against the Corpus if they have shields, not good against non-machinery type Grineer (because metal armor over cybernetic implants stops electrical current), and not much good against Corrupted if they have Ancients or Drones (which they always do).

Another weird situational point is the fact that you're now somewhat decent against the Infested, so long as you avoid all Toxin damage and don't get whipcorded AND there aren't any Ancient Healers to BS their way through everything (they "heal" through CCs, which is total nonsense).

Actually, ya know what?  You're right.  I'm not seeing much of a situation in which there isn't a much better choice of 'Frame than Volt.  Outside of an endless waves of Rollers mission, Volt really doesn't bring much to his Cell.  I guess the most "situational" aspect of Volt is whether he survives or not...

That last bit really isn't a slam at you, just frustration.

[FitzSimmons]

14 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Rollers, Latchers, and Regulators.  These are the enemies you're actually effective against.  That's it.

Corpus robotics have shields, which you have to burn through before you can hurt them.  For whatever reason, it seems like all Corpus are equally squishy once you're past the shields, and Toxin is just about as effective against Robotics due to shield bypass.  Also, Corpus Nullifiers.  They ruin everything.

You need to exist in a constant state of Speed OR be behind a shield throwing Discharge.  Else if, you're a squishy target facing basically unlimited hordes of enemies with a damage type that's probably the most ineffective in Warframe.  Also, your enemies scale; you don't.

Volt Speed worked (better even) before the rework, so nothing was improved there.  Shield now blocks AoE damage, actually making it really quite nice.  Shock is, at best, a pocket CC to use when you're reloading.  Discharge is great IF you're allowed to cast it (stupid ground lock) AND IF enemies don't break out early.

Basically, you're not good against the Corpus if they have shields, not good against non-machinery type Grineer (because metal armor over cybernetic implants stops electrical current), and not much good against Corrupted if they have Ancients or Drones (which they always do).

Another weird situational point is the fact that you're now somewhat decent against the Infested, so long as you avoid all Toxin damage and don't get whipcorded AND there aren't any Ancient Healers to BS their way through everything (they "heal" through CCs, which is total nonsense).

Actually, ya know what?  You're right.  I'm not seeing much of a situation in which there isn't a much better choice of 'Frame than Volt.  Outside of an endless waves of Rollers mission, Volt really doesn't bring much to his Cell.  I guess the most "situational" aspect of Volt is whether he survives or not...

That last bit really isn't a slam at you, just frustration.

I'm so effective against bombard, napalm, scorch, and hyekka master tho, more effective than frost because electric shield nullifies aoe damage, I can just stand behind shield in a narrow space then throw my lanka beam through them, all die in a shot since electric shield doubles lanka damage.

in my experience of discharge I never experience enemies "not allow" me to cast it.

speed works better now for volt individually, for a team no.

what so tough about corpus shield compared to grineer armor? I don't think its tough at all, especially when you go with weapon and use magnetic element combination, no need to use element that give bonus damage to their flesh health/robotic health because they're so weak. the only tough opponent in corpus faction is oxium because of its armor and bursas.....and those roller skaters that's all.  corpus? discharge then jat kittag/fragor prime then boom. i even forgot that they have shield except when it comes to anti-moa.

infested is the easiest of all enemy faction after volt rework because I don't have to rely only on shocking speed to stun them while I slashing and smashing, and shock can't stun enemies if ancient healer is nearby so I use discharge and ancient healer proc immune buff doesn't work against discharge stun, that's why I can easily solo hierarcon with volt because of discharge. and its a long stun, long enough to kill them all with volt speed + heavy weapon.

the funny thing is in sorties I always the one who revive my allies rather than revived in volt, is it because I'm too good or volt is actually good? I don't even use redirection, vitality, or vigor. only rely on QT and primed flow.

i guess you see volt in wrong direction, volt is capable of all missions against all faction.

[ograzzt]

CC on his Discharge can be effectively used only against armored enemies. Anything without armor will break from his CC in seconds because of laughable HP caps on this ability. That's extremely weird and makes no sense. 

In the end we didn't get neither promised on devstreams scaling damage for his ultimate, nor reliable cc. Volt still needs a lot of fixes.

[Cytobel]

1 hour ago, FitzSimmons said:

*snip*

i guess you see volt in wrong direction, volt is capable of all missions against all faction.

I agree that we disagree.

Given that we're discussing Volt, I couldn't care less what weapons manage to accomplish.  That's not what this thread is about, although you're completely right that many weapons are quite good and can pair well with Volt.

Also you're correct to say that the Lanka is beast through the Electric Shield.  Again, what a gun does is not what Volt does, although that's a very wise weapon choice for Volt.  Good synergy.  It sounds like you have good modding and equipment sense.

On the other hand, I see what Volt by himself is doing. THAT is where I have issues.  Primed Flow is a mod i tend to use, but not Quick Thinking.  QT can stagger-lock you, though that's rarely a fatal issue outside of Sorties.

Actually, I think our disagreement is simple:  you're good, Volt isn't.  Your weapons are sound and you've worked around Volt's weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.  Primed Flow and QT can make ANYTHING stay standing quite well (until a stagger-lock).

I mean you no disrespect at all, but I think we are talking about different issues.  If I'm missing something or being offensive, I apologize.  I'm kinda sleep-deprived right now and on allergy medications, so everything's a little...  bendy...

[OSACHIE]

Jesus his ultimate needs to go back, makes you not even want to use it and I just got volt prime :(   the shields OK that u can pick it up but never had much problems placing them in the first place, the speed pick up is OK but an option would make more sense...but please please! Turn his ultimate back the lights going out, doing it mid air it actually helping during large crowds now it just tickles them with electricity,... Volt was a strong warframe with his high energy and team buffs but now it just feels like he can't....we gotta bring him back to life

 

[Cloud]

I would like to discuss about Volt's Speed. I made also a post :

19 minutes ago, LordCloud00 said:

Many did not like Speed instant effect, because this forced people to acquire an high speed, sometimes unwelcome.

But what if players were able to decide how fast to go with the speed of the Volt?

My proposal is to maintain speed as a droppable object, but also to let anyone within a certain range from volt to benefit from the buff instantly without having to physically go to the object.

Once in the speed, each player during all the duration of the buff can adjust the intensity of the speed applied to theirselves through the mouse wheel, down to decrease speed, upwards to increase it.

Having as extreme points, for the decrease of the effect zeroing speed; for the increase, the increase in speed until the cap allowed by the power strength of the Volt.

This will satisfy all of these needs:
1) For those who do not want to/ cannot be attached to the Volt, you may also benefit from the speed using the droppable object.
2) For those who do not want to bother with the droppable object, may be near the Volt and so benefit from instant buff.
3) For those who do not want the speed effect, they can (using the mouse wheel) , clear it for theirselves.
4) Having the ability to adjust the speed to your liking, the skill itself will become much more stable and comfortable. 

What do you think about it?

[hukurokuju5]

5 hours ago, ograzzt said:

CC on his Discharge can be effectively used only against armored enemies. Anything without armor will break from his CC in seconds because of laughable HP caps on this ability. That's extremely weird and makes no sense. 

In the end we didn't get neither promised on devstreams scaling damage for his ultimate, nor reliable cc. Volt still needs a lot of fixes.

basically this.

[Brasten]

7 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Discharge is great IF you're allowed to cast it (stupid ground lock)

I'd point out that you can cast it while Wall Latched and while Sliding (which I do quite often, as I'm also looking to spin into combat as the opening melee attack).

====

The biggest issue with Discharge right now is the inconsistent CC element brought on the Health Cap. I needs to be changed so that even if Discharge burns through all its potential damage in 2 seconds, the Teslal'ed enemies are still locked up for the duration. -- Discharge doesn't have the range and spread (has deliberately designed issues going up or down levels that aren't directly connected) to keep a whole map perma-locked the way Mirage could, so I don't see long term issues. Not when Banshee can make the whole map dance. Or Nova setting the game pace to Slow Mo.

How discharge works now compared to overload is a good start, but it sure cannot be allowed to be the end. It's not refined enough and inconsistent in application.

Getting Speed back as team buff, and whole new system of opting in/out of party buffs (maybe through quick tapping the Gear screen button, Q, when prompted) would bring Volt into a solid Combat Support role.

Volt very much depends on his Weapons. Along with most defiantly Loki, Mesa, Rhino, Nekros, Limbo, Vauban, Oberon, and Wukon. If you don't bring complementary weapons on the majority of frames that can't cheese with Finisher Daggers.

====

Another issue remains speed of play. For Volt to be at his best he still plays very methodically. If he or his allies rush face first into level 100+ fights... ya he gets his crotch spike pushed in. He's a squishy but has the tools to get himself into deep trouble. Speed and Shield (riot) mode are going to give inexpedience Volts a false sense of security, making it feel like you can dive keep to get the most impact out of Discharge. This would kinda work if the CC duration on Discharge was consistent across factions and even enemy types, but it isn't.

Currently the Pre-Rework method of playing Volt stands. Methodical. You start by moving into new tile and setting up a shooting stand behind Shield. Moving under Speed to new positions as more aggressive enemies and area-denial force you. Throwing out Shocks and Discharges where appropriate.

The only thing about that which has changed is the addition of the Riot Shield, which just lets you move a bit safer to a new spot to set up.

[Wolfnrun]

18 hours ago, Cytobel said:

It might be more accurate to say that the benefits are vastly outweighed by annoying, ill-fitting design choices.  It feels like this is a perfect case study of too many cooks spoiling the broth.

Honestly, I got the real impression that it's more about "all hands on deck" right now than actually reworking things.  U19 is such a big thing that the game is coming apart under the weight of all these alterations.

I would prefer to hear that U19 was being delayed by a few weeks so that these issues could be fixed.

War within is coming in about a month, give or take...Something has to be done until then! We need proper buffs and changes for the better! not...this 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Wolfnrun
I can't spell