Overpowered players

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

Just now, (PS4)lNoctus said:

 

Warframe shouldn't be a scapegoat for players who want to cheese enemies without a struggle - there are many other games where you can be a god in single player or relax like in a bird simulator where you fly around with no obstacles (or even do other activities other than gaming if you just want to relax or kick back).

Since warframe is heavily co-op focused, god mode shouldn't be a thing for warframe.

If and when warframe is balanced (and it will) you can still indiscriminately slaughter level 1 enemies for your amusement, and when you feel the need to be serious - play harder enemies.

 

just because the game lead down a path of kill everything no challenge doesn't mean that was warframes intention - they are wanting to balance everything from what devstreams have announced.

 

as a matter of fact it's exactly the reason I want warframe to be balanced and skilled because warframe itself is a unique game and why waste potential for casuals to easy mode through content and have weapons/frames be obsolete to the meta of the month new gear? No.

everything should be viable, that is why balance is needed.

Again what benefit would warframe have to change its entire game mechanics?

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

Again what benefit would warframe have to change its entire game mechanics?

again: black/white arguments. we are talking about tweaking core mechanics, not changing them entirely.

[IRVoidGuru]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)lNoctus said:

 

Warframe shouldn't be a scapegoat for players who want to cheese enemies without a struggle - there are many other games where you can be a god in single player or relax like in a bird simulator where you fly around with no obstacles (or even do other activities other than gaming if you just want to relax or kick back).

Since warframe is heavily co-op focused, god mode shouldn't be a thing for warframe.

If and when warframe is balanced (and it will) you can still indiscriminately slaughter level 1 enemies for your amusement, and when you feel the need to be serious - play harder enemies.

 

just because the game lead down a path of kill everything no challenge doesn't mean that was warframes intention - they are wanting to balance everything from what devstreams have announced.

 

as a matter of fact it's exactly the reason I want warframe to be balanced and skilled because warframe itself is a unique game and why waste potential for casuals to easy mode through content and have weapons/frames be obsolete to the meta of the month new gear? No.

everything should be viable, that is why balance is needed.

warframe also shouldnt be forced to be played co-op. i like solo cuz i dont have to deal with players FAR under my ability , as for skill. the only skill in this game is modding. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[Sinkatas]

Does anyone have anything positive to say here,  ever ?

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

read my edit of the post before. i don't bash the devs by questioning their reasoning. we are in feedback, this forum exists for that.

I don't care that it was edited the developers are amazing the graphics team amazing the support team I was shown to be one of the best support teams i have scene in like 50 mmo's

I hate when players play games and never take the time to be like the makers of this game are great all you get is angry rants and players made about what they dont have

I started warframe it was a challenge i soloed the entire thing and if you call that easy you try it Its pretty hard So when you say i sit back and do nothing for 5 minutes it makes so depressed to think how a player can be talking about the same game

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

Just now, Sinkatas said:

Does anyone have anything positive to say here,  ever ?

Exactly What i was writing we all take time to complain but never are like you did this awesome

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

the only problem with your argument is there are builds with low efficiency that Require the energy restore ability we have just to keep up , my saryn for example.

 So? Just spam restores If there's no EV in the team ...

Quote

do i find requiring a power fun ? well no on the other hand id have way less fun without that power active witch is why its a requirement, invis should be able to be countered by enemy's firing on an area they hear a shot Forcing u to mod for silence to get the ability u have now. if u work hard enough on your mods and frame. you then should be able to do more then others. my mesa has over 3k plat in her. arcanes based off the deffence shatter shield gives. should i lose my set up cuz players don't like efficiency?

 Efficiency alone is not the issue. Skill spamming is the issue and efficiency along with easy energy gain is what enables it. And yes, just because you spent god knows how much plat doesn't mean that you should be able to brake gameplay.

Quote

they answer is just no. as for + 300 percent i get where u may feel that way but its not that at all. it is 190 you can get at best and its capped to 175 . efficiency is cheaper mod cost wise because its limited. if we limit power strength range and duration then maybe i could agree with you. but that in turn ruins build variability 

It seems you should invest some plat in your math skills.

100 energy ult cost = 100% efficiency

50 energy ult cost = 150% efficiency

25 energy ult cost = 175% efficiency

100/25= 4 = 400% final casting efficiency

Edited June 23, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

I don't care that it was edited the developers are amazing the graphics team amazing the support team I was shown to be one of the best support teams i have scene in like 50 mmo's

I hate when players play games and never take the time to be like the makers of this game are great all you get is angry rants and players made about what they dont have

I started warframe it was a challenge i soloed the entire thing and if you call that easy you try it Its pretty hard So when you say i sit back and do nothing for 5 minutes it makes so depressed to think how a player can be talking about the same game

,;.:!?""()-   <- please learn to use these. if you can't stand any criticism towards DE ("leave britney alone D:" ) maybe you should stop reading the feedback forums. the game is nice, but not perfect. the devs rely on our feedback. i feel free to provide some. doing so i never used any strong words or anything. i applaud their efforts, too. though some went in the wrong direction ... in. my. oh. so. humble. opinion.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[IRVoidGuru]

4 hours ago, Tomppak said:

I really like those mod suggestions. I'm used to "modding" in most games meaning that you add a bonus, at the cost of a penalty - Corrupted mods are a good example of what mods should be. Currently, mods like Serration are kinda like the "true" level of your rifle - every time you add a rank, your weapon gains one level and a damage bonus associated with it - that's not really "modding" as modding is usually understood: You aren't modifying your weapon, you're merely upgrading it's statistics.

Mods like you suggest would diversify builds, making people choose mods based on what compliments their playstyle, as opposed to mods that provide the best damage bonus. For example, I'd use wall latcher and try to adapt my playstyle to accomodate it (and either adapt to it, or ditch it in favor of another mod if it proves too difficult). Likewise, I'd love to see more, and more balanced, corrupted mods - choosing between "increased multishot but decreased clipsize" and "increased fire rate, decreased damage" is a lot more interesting and gives a lot more room for personal preferences than "choose between corrosive and gas" - of course, the mods would need to be carefully balanced, and not abusable like the current -duration mods on Trinity EV.

(the negative duration ev is silly. Seriously, the negative trait on the mod is a DRAWBACK, and should hinder you, not something you are ment to exploit. Easiest fix for trinity would be to have negative duration actually make the EV last longer.)

mods with negitives should be able to be used intelegently. like Over extended making speed nova and so on , so removing -duration on EV is kinda .... no. players should be able to use these decreases as an advantage if they are smart enough 

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

6 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

,;.:-   <- please learn to use these. if you can't stand any criticism towards DE ("leave britney alone D:" ) maybe you should stop reading the feedback forums. the game is nice, but not perfect. the devs rely on our feedback. i feel free to provide some. doing so i never used any strong words or anything. i applaud their efforts, too. though some went in the wrong direction ... in. my. oh. so. humble. opinion.

See what you said is wrong ^^ feedback on the game not the [DE] and you should understand I can give my feedback on a idea if I disagree and now that your being proven wrong your taking the make it personal road

Sorry I just hate bullies that will bully to prove a point. now your next response will be a explanation on how it wasn't meant to attack me personally

I understand we both feel strongly on the subject but you shouldn't take it that far

Edited June 23, 2016 by (XB1)Itz chibi

[IRVoidGuru]

18 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 So? Just spam restores If there's no EV in the team ...

 Efficiency alone is not the issue. Skill spamming is the issue and efficiency along with easy energy gain is what enables it. And yes, just because you spent god knows how much plat doesn't mean that you should be able to brake gameplay.

It seems you should invest some plat in your math skills.

100 energy ult cost = 100% efficiency

50 energy ult cost = 150% efficiency

25 energy ult cost = 175% efficiency

100/25= 4 = 400% final casting efficiency

lol my math was fine , you dont understand Fractions well though , 1/4th then added back with 3/4 does not mean its 400 percent, it simply means you re added it back to the whole to consider it as such. skill spamming is a player choice and shouldnt be removed simply cuz a Small segment of players dont like it, sorry. and as for restores i spend my time and resorces on them. they are limited to 200 per mission limiting any farther is not needed. you shouldnt make snide comments about others abilitys when all you did was Change the Equation to make it fit Your logic when the True logic is decrease in cost = to percentage, wait for it. 175 at max , or 1/4 if you didnt catch the math there 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

mods with negitives should be able to be used intelegently. like Over extended making speed nova and so on , so removing -duration on EV is kinda .... no. players should be able to use these decreases as an advantage if they are smart enough 

I do love my spoiled strike mod LOL

[WarmongerExtraordinare]

oh god this entire thread is so terrible

maby op should go play some call of duty 

[IRVoidGuru]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

I do love my spoiled strike mod LOL

yup it on Galatine is nice added with Maiming  strike 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33
lol didnt mean rending strike , too make strikes XD

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

Just now, DioBrandoTheHotVampire said:

oh god this entire thread is so terrible

maby op should go play some call of duty 

Call of duty is not a game for me players get mad at skill and go bananas same thing happens in destiny time to time

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

3 minutes ago, DioBrandoTheHotVampire said:

oh god this entire thread is so terrible

maby op should go play some call of duty 

yeah it was pretty terrible but the mind altering poignancy and unheared of substance of THIS post turned things around immediately, congratulations!

Edited June 23, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

yup it on Galatine is nice added with Maiming  strike 

Now your talking lol

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

I think i made good points this would alter the entire game play mechanic

warframe is already popular and changing the base would upset players Harming the game

and cough don't mock the [DE]

 

[IRVoidGuru]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

I think i made good points this would alter the entire game play mechanic

warframe is already popular and changing the base would upset players Harming the game

and cough don't mock the [DE]

 

i agree with this , idk if your keeping track or whatever but for sure im against most of this. serration and multishot changes need to happen but changin the other mods and screwing efficentcy and our restore ability. id only be able to accept this if i could see how the enemys would end up after we get this new state of gameplay. i could only accept this if we got these nerfs + enemy nerfs in the SAME update. and had the ability to vote to go back if we as a whole player base didnt like it 

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

If they're gonna do any of the things that you mentioned above, they better also rework the enemies. For one thing, fire procs shouldn't be totally crippling and result in almost instant death because the effect keeps stacking and lasting for what seems like 50 eternities until you die.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

lol my math was fine , you don't understand Fractions well though , 1/4th then added back with 3/4 does not mean its 400 percent, it simply means you re added it back to the whole to consider it as such. skill spamming is a player choice and shouldn't be removed simply cuz a Small segment of players don't like it, sorry. and as for restores i spend my time and resources on them. they are limited to 200 per mission limiting any farther is not needed. you shouldn't make snide comments about others abilities when all you did was Change the Equation to make it fit Your logic when the True logic is decrease in cost = to percentage, wait for it. 175 at max , or 1/4 if you didn't catch the math there 

ROFL. Oh no, Every one is limited to "only" 200 of each restore per mission. That's only 3200 large team restores per squad, how DARE DE limit players so much...

As for efficiency, what are you talking about? If you can cast a skill at only 1/4 the original cost that means your efficiency is four times the original efficiency = 400%. The way warframe displays efficiency is actually incorrect since according to the current system at 175% efficiency skills cost 1/4 of the original cost.

[IRVoidGuru]

13 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

ROFL. Oh no, Every one is limited to "only" 200 of each restore per mission. That's only 3200 large team restores per squad, how DARE DE limit players so much...

As for efficiency, what are you talking about? If you can cast a skill at only 1/4 the original cost that means your efficiency is four times the original efficiency = 400%. The way warframe displays efficiency is actually incorrect since according to the current system at 175% efficiency skills cost 1/4 of the original cost.

what are you talking about?Efficiency is broadly speaking, how efficient you are at casting skills. removing a cost = to the percentage over 100 , aka removing 3/4 of the cost at max , you cant simply change the math to make it seem like efficentcy is over powered in any way. Your Math is just Wrong its not 300 percent your getting its only 175 . it cant get any easyer then to simply read 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[Azrael]

I'm trying so hard to stay out of this thread...

 

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

100/25= 4 = 400% final casting efficiency

 

That's not how math works. Going from 100 to 25 is a 75% reduction in energy needs, and it costs 175 eff to achieve this.

you see, percentage reduction from a number (which we will call old) to another number (which we will call new) is:  (old - new)/old

so 100-25 = 75 and 75/100 = 0.75 which is 75%.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Lord_Azrael
typo

[Irorone]

On 6/15/2016 at 0:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem.

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,...

So how could DE fix the energy system?

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown.

So what would the effects of implementing these changes be? For starters the star map would become interesting again. Player skill would actually become a bigger factor which would add more room for growth and increase replayability. Ammo economy and energy management would become important again. Players could choose between modding for physical or elemental damage. DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. Endgame content could be rebalanced so enemies are no longer bullet sponge demigods that players currently don't bother killing if not necessary.

 

I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back.

Edit: People seem to think that I'm advocating nerfing warframe and weapon damage without addressing the enemy stats, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  What I want is to keep the players engaged and challenged. Camping and spamming skills or cheesing your way through with copious CC and damage resistance is neither fun or engaging. Same goes for enemies with their nullifiers and debuffing auras. So I'm saying both should be rebalanced so players and enemies don't have to keep trying to out cheese each other.

Edit 2: Removing serration and lowering bonuses from elemental mods would only serve to remove insane mod damage scaling. Flat damage mods would be replaced by conditional mods that would only provide their boost by fulfilling their conditions.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare

These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more.

 

 

Balance in a PVE game is extremely subjective.  Our opponents are AI and in a lot of cases designed to be cannon fodder so a "level playing field" is a literally endless debate since the two sides, player and AI are intrinsically different. 

1.  Your entire argument on damage increasing mods and new content is just a jab at an rpg style progression system.  Balance is a literally endless subjective argument in the realm of PVE.

2.  Taking away basic upgrades like serration is literally just shifting meta and believe me when I say that a lot of people are already sick of the meta shifting nerfs.  Instead of taking "the easy way out" and nerfing an item/frame/etc. how about giving us an increased challenge in the form of new enemies or giving us some sort of reason to use utility mods (for example punch through mods allowing us to actually strike weakpoints that normally get covered up with what is effectively invincibility frames.

3.  If you convert element mods than literally you will relegate a massive mod set to status proc builds again a meta shifting nerf.  Physical mods are plenty viable with certain builds and in terms of raw numbers can stack even better than element mods due to higher % values.

4.  Mods are supposed to upgrade weapons, this "skill requirement mods" as you've suggested them would effectively be side grading and again is a meta shifting nerf argument.  People complained about mesa, meet sound quake banshee that can hit every spawn on draco through walls (which people are also complaining about) a nerf is rarely a true fix.

5.  There are hitzones that deal more damage already in game (headshots) and crits generally work that way in games when they are termed crits you aren't arguing for fixing crits you're arguing to remove them completely and if anything only strengthens the gun game since it would take a massive amount of work to make melee strikes a player skill based system when guns already have pinpoint precision.

6.  Nerf efficiency mods?  Again a meta shifting argument.  Power spam is not necessarily a detriment and high end play generally requires energy management to be built into the frame (unless you're counting on EV but that's the next point on this.  Certain frames already are such a hodgepodge of mod synergies that efficiency mods are near useless (I.E. eclipse and mirror mirage).  Again don't nerf to fall in line give us need to be this powerful.

7.  No just no, the whole point of that power is for trinity to supply energy to the party one of her few remaining advantages in the support role since blessing DR builds got annihilated I can get 95% ranged DR with mesa's shatter shield with a fraction of the modding effort.

8.  The damage resistance argument is entirely false given there are frames that can be literally invulnerable.  She is also supposed to be the medic/support frame by design take away the healing and EV and you might as well patch trinity and her prime version out of the game. 

9.  Consumables are already limited by quantity and many of them are inferior to frame abilities anyway (arguably ammo is the only one that works better than a frame power since you'd still need a mutation mod to make desecrate enough).  Nerfing them with max quantities and/or cooldowns mitigates the value of consumables based preparation.

10.  Ammo efficiency is already important it's why bullet hose weapons generally require a mutation mod or mass consumable spam.

11.  You are advocating nerfing warframe at least half your arguments are to nerf the meta instead of adding something that actually justify using different setups on the same frames/weapons.

12.  Enemies scale too and near infinitely at that, people just go with easier/faster farming cuz there isn't really an incentive to be good other than "gotta go fast" and treasure hunting in void sabotage missions (still an element of gotta go fast but that's not gonna go away).  Saying we should nerf damage values and or damage scaling is practically just arguing for spongier enemies since that's the only result of reducing our damage capacity is a longer time to kill.

 

[Chipputer]

In which it devolves into an argument over semantics where someone flips an idea around to show that you're getting 4x as much bang for your buck by using the number 400% but then people immediately start to squabble with him by saying, "no it's a 75% reduction, not 400% gain," as though it even matters when everyone knew exactly what they meant.

You guys are like kids who are arguing over whether to use an orange crayon or a pumpkin colored crayon.