Overpowered players

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

18 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

since this is a coop game first and foremost i was hesitant to accept your answer but then i thought yeah why not (as if it even makes alot of a difference):

notice how my loadout is not even commonly considered broken gear (soma borderline probably but it's still tame compared to tonkor for example, which by the way i could have taken with me regardless the restriction of assault rifles only... oh and my focus is zenurik, yep). i died a couple of times during the hek mission (2 times i didnt even see what killed me, 3rd time was a wild kubrow that snuck behind my shield fort XD) and i did use ammo, shield and energy restores. still did everything first try, approx. half an hour overall.

the first was spy, i always solo those anyway (because pugs are a gamble considering hacking), so yeah: loki. minigames=hardest part.

second was a rescue. i just ran by everything with volt and admittedly became somewhat lucky with the cell (chose the correct one on first try). during the escape i could try out the new riot shield rag dolling... it was hilarious! :D great new feature! (see i give the devs credit, too, where due XD)

these are conditions posed upon by yourself, not the game.

 

look, i didn't want this to become about my or anyone's e-peen ok? it just seems to me that certain folks aren't even aware of the crazy cheese potential in this game. jesus, some guy in the recently deceased tonkor-monster-thread (rip) boasted about having over two THOUSAND hard rathuum kills during the last event. and he did it while perma invisible and pressing e, the only danger being the one to fall asleep. with stuff like this there is no real challenge in this game ever, period. again, only if you deliberately choose to avoid cheese tactics.

edit: thanks to chipputer for elaborating on the matter before i could. he made some valid points.

then it was a challenge ^^

[DatDarkOne]

8 hours ago, Chipputer said:

This is probably where DE would need to re-do the math as far as the relationship between duration and channeled abilities go. If they ever nerfed efficiency they would have to take a long, hard look at how it affects frames with channeled skills. Equinox is another frame that this same question would apply to.

Essentially, it would have to be a system where duration would actually have a noticeable effect on the time between energy consumption. Right now it's too negligible.

Beyond that, it is still an acceptable answer to say that certain options wouldn't be viable anymore. World on Fire built Ember, which is clearly something that DE wanted to allow people to build to have on permanently, wouldn't necessarily be viable anymore with these changes-- you'd have to play smarter and know when it was appropriate to use your AoE auto-nuke. The same would have to apply to Ivara. You would occasionally have to drop Prowl to keep your energy up. That isn't a horrible thought and it wouldn't destroy her viability at end game, especially with all the other tools in her kit (IE: shoot down invis-arrow, stand in it, end Prowl, drop energy restore, leave invisible zone, re-enter Prowl).

Thank you for giving it a go.  :D  Your response contains quite a bit of logic and common sense.  The bold part is something I was trying to bring to OP's attention because his original suggestions didn't take that into account.  I used an example that I'm very familiar with to avoid mistakes.  

8 hours ago, Chipputer said:

I don't think OP worded their answer to you very eloquently, but saying they're insulting your intelligence because they didn't give you the answer you were looking for is childish.

This was due to multiple responses that avoided my request while eloquently trying to change the subject or latch onto another, unrelated point.   Let's just move on past that.  It's not a big deal.  :D

Edited June 25, 2016 by DatDarkOne
edited

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

then it was a challenge ^^

a rather mild one ;) ... at least it felt like playing the game, yep.

but

my point still stands: any challenge in this game's endgame is self imposed, while it by itself should test our skill to the highest degree (in relation to overall game difficulty/progress) by definition. in fact it's almost the exact other way around: the more you progress the easier it gets. crazy.

maybe this game is not even supposed to be particularly difficult (even endgame), fair enough then, but: killing hordes of lvl 100+ enemies with ash by the repeated press of one single button that convieniently even turns you invincible while doing so, that's not even easy. it's nothing. it is the absence of actual gameplay. it's watching a lightshow "for scraps". and that's just one of quite a few examples of possibilites to completely trivializie content with minimal (and i mean minimal) effort.

(yeah i now ash is being reworked. good. but we all know there will be lamentations to the extreme, no matter what they'll do to him. just like some people are actually still wishing anti-corpus button mag back. sorry: what a joke.)

On 15.6.2016 at 10:36 AM, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more.

yes, "we" do.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(XBOX)iTzblockyy]

Read everything.

Response to OP, simply - No.

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

a rather mild one ;) ... at least it felt like playing the game, yep.

but

my point still stands: any challenge in this game's endgame is self imposed, while it by itself should test our skill to the highest degree (in relation to overall game difficulty/progress) by definition. in fact it's almost the exact other way around: the more you progress the easier it gets. crazy.

maybe this game is not even supposed to be particularly difficult (even endgame), fair enough then, but: killing hordes of lvl 100+ enemies with ash by the repeated press of one single button that convieniently even turns you invincible while doing so, that's not even easy. it's nothing. it is the absence of actual gameplay. it's watching a lightshow "for scraps". and that's just one of quite a few examples of possibilites to completely trivializie content with minimal (and i mean minimal) effort.

(yeah i now ash is being reworked. good. but we all know there will be lamentations to the extreme, no matter what they'll do to him. just like some people are actually still wishing anti-corpus button mag back. sorry: what a joke.)

yes, "we" do.

Hehe, fixing Ash wouldn't be a nerf.  It would be correcting an oversight.  As long as they make things better overall (for everyone), I can totally agree with the reworks of frames.  

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

If 3 out of 100 players say yes they feel justified

Edited June 25, 2016 by (XB1)Itz chibi

[-CM-Emptiness]

10 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So why not do both?

We can agree on that. However, the order is extremely important since DE can't do both simultaneously. I prefer the content that veterans do to not be overly impossible, and you prefer no more cheesing. Truth be told, since cheesing is already abundant, having a bit more cheese for a short period won't hurt as much as the other, which is why enemy-rework takes priority.

10 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I believe you underestimate players far too much. I bet my head that most of warframe players aren't new to shooters genre, so it's a no brainer to shoot for enemy weaknesses.
As for incentives, the only way for them to work is if they are the "best" option for the player. Why would a player equip a mod that allows him to deal extra damage on head shots if he can equip serration? The only way that would work was if it provided an even bigger bonus and there would be nothing preventing him from equipping both at the same time. As for ninja mindset, you're right. Ninjas were not nearly as powerful as the warframes. So how about magic space ninjas?

I'm trying to refer to the game design, which differs markedly from skill shooters like CoD. The point is that the 'best' option isn't ubiquitous. If a player can't shoot weak spots accurately or frequently enough, the 'best' to them is no-brainer method. But it shouldn't detract from their play experience too much. The difference between the two must be visible, yet at the same time not overly powerful that it becomes a requirement. In your example, say both Serration and Perfectionist both do +40%. So a skilled player would equip both to obtain a benefit of +80% whilst an unskilled player can only reap the +40% from the Serration mod. If there was no Serration, that player would not be able to capitalize on elemental mods as much, leading to a much lower damage output. In the former, there is a visible difference but it isn't enough to deter players from having a roughly equalized play experience. Which cannot be said for the latter. All in all, it's a choice with incentive. 

10 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I wouldn't mind bursas staying either, but Nullies are basically anti player cheese. Not only do they counter our abilities, they also counter slow firing weapons.

The strategy would be to move inside the bubble and shoot / melee the Nullifier unit. In the case of a 'crowded bubble', all the more challenge.

10 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Yes, you're confused. Just because enemies can't oneshot you with a mean look doesn't mean that it wouldn't be challenging. Do a level 60 or 80 sortie without spamming abilities and see how far you can go. If my changes were implemented, enemies wouldn't have to scale to such a level because players wouldn't be able to do so much burst damage and wouldn't be able to spam abilities with impunity.

If your changes were implemented after the enemy-rework, which they will be. If they aren't, content becomes more difficult in the period between the reworks.

I will use Raids as an example. G3 and Vay Hek (in Hijack) have massively increased resistance to CC. Shik Tal (shield and rocket) possesses innate knock-down capabilities (it's a terrible chain knock-down), and damage also affects the health of the extremely volatile core. The other two can also knock players off pads at close-range, but they can teleport. Manics will do one-hits if they can sneak up on you. Vay Hek will magnetic proc you if you get too close to him. His hit-box is also the small one on his mask which remains closed the majority, plus he turns and moves a lot. Trinity bless cannot cover everyone given pad location. Mirage can't either with LoS. Along with 15% damage to core on contact with electricity (much more if left as is). This is normal LoR. In Nightmare, pad drain of 10 energy per second, Disruptor drones (equivalent to Nullifiers) and instant failure on contact with electricity in Hijack, make this much worse. Due to the scaling, anything other than OP weapons won't rid of Hek or the G3 quickly enough. Similarly, in Nightmare, a lack of EV or limits to restores will guarantee a failure for the squad. So I will say, lets not make this any more difficult that it already is. Just wait for the rework and we can start all over.

PS. I agree that the current EV requires another look, but keep in mind Trinity is the only frame that provides energy. As such there is no variety to counter the demand for energy in missions. Also, removing EV AND restores is a terrible idea which leaves players with no choice, especially in missions like the above (Players without the correct Syndicate can only restore 50 energy per 5 seconds).

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by -CM-Emptiness

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

3 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

We can agree on that. However, the order is extremely important since DE can't do both simultaneously. I prefer the content that veterans do to not be overly impossible, and you prefer no more cheesing. Truth be told, since cheesing is already abundant, having a bit more cheese for a short period won't hurt as much as the other, which is why enemy-rework takes priority.

That's where you're wrong. It far more beneficial for DE to make things overly difficult for a while than to make it overly easy. Why? Because, they've put a lot of work into their content and giving players a free pass to blaze through it not only invalidates their effort, but also awards players with rare drops that will make completing their challenges even easier in the future.

Quote

I'm trying to refer to the game design, which differs markedly from skill shooters like CoD. The point is that the 'best' option isn't ubiquitous. If a player can't shoot weak spots accurately or frequently enough, the 'best' to them is no-brainer method. But it shouldn't detract from their play experience too much. The difference between the two must be visible, yet at the same time not overly powerful that it becomes a requirement. In your example, say both Serration and Perfectionist both do +40%. So a skilled player would equip both to obtain a benefit of +80% whilst an unskilled player can only reap the +40% from the Serration mod. If there was no Serration, that player would not be able to capitalize on elemental mods as much, leading to a much lower damage output. In the former, there is a visible difference but it isn't enough to deter players from having a roughly equalized play experience. Which cannot be said for the latter. All in all, it's a choice with incentive. 

COD is a "skilled" shooter? LOL. Anyway, my point is why should No-brainer method be acceptable in the high end play? Is it just because of choice? Just because someone wants to play without putting in much attention, they should be awarded with similar rewards to those who do? Furthermore, your suggestion still makes serration a core mod. Everyone would equip it because it provides a flat bonus. The only way I can think of serration staying is leaving it with high mod drain while drastically lowering its damage bonus, but even that could be countered easily by forma.

Quote

The strategy would be to move inside the bubble and shoot / melee the Nullifier unit. In the case of a 'crowded bubble', all the more challenge.

Ancient healers and bombards send their regards...

Quote

PS. I agree that the current EV requires another look, but keep in mind Trinity is the only frame that provides energy. As such there is no variety to counter the demand for energy in missions. Also, removing EV AND restores is a terrible idea which leaves players with no choice, especially in missions like the above (Players without the correct Syndicate can only restore 50 energy per 5 seconds).

The problem with the current EV is in just how brain dead and easy it is use and how massively rewarding it is. One good suggestion for EV I've seen is to make it give teammates an aura similar to disruptors so they can steal energy on hit.

The whole point of nerfing EV was to make energy actually scarce. Even if Trin was removed right now, we could still have abundant energy thanks to restores and Energy overflow.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[CharlesSnippy]

On 6/21/2016 at 4:20 PM, Mattoropael said:

The insane stat still ends up falling short when facing the even more insane enemy scaling, especially when it comes to Grineer (and Grineer-based Corrupted) armor.

Until enemy scaling is redone, leave the system alone. You have no idea what you're tinkering with.

 

I know what I'm dealing with. Obviously we're talking about this with the idea that the enemy scaling would be changed as well. I even said as much.

[Soketsu]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Just because someone wants to play without putting in much attention, they should be awarded with similar rewards to those who do?

just because you don't pay attention to every comment of your own thread, you should be awarded by the same attention to those who do ?

my answer is yes if it is just one or two time, but not more than 3 times

Spoiler

if you din't understand (but I think you already understood) it was an analogy

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Soketsu

[-CM-Emptiness]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

That's where you're wrong. It far more beneficial for DE to make things overly difficult for a while than to make it overly easy. Why? Because, they've put a lot of work into their content and giving players a free pass to blaze through it not only invalidates their effort, but also awards players with rare drops that will make completing their challenges even easier in the future.

Depends on the content. Sorties and Raids, which are attempted on a daily basis, may deter a portion of the community from the game if difficulty reaches the point where you can't complete it, or it becomes a chore for a daily mission. Anyways, my point was since cheesing already exists, there is already a free pass, so it won't hurt to lower it a bit more temporarily, relative to the other option.

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

COD is a "skilled" shooter? LOL. Anyway, my point is why should No-brainer method be acceptable in the high end play? Is it just because of choice? Just because someone wants to play without putting in much attention, they should be awarded with similar rewards to those who do? Furthermore, your suggestion still makes serration a core mod. Everyone would equip it because it provides a flat bonus. The only way I can think of serration staying is leaving it with high mod drain while drastically lowering its damage bonus, but even that could be countered easily by forma.

Never mind, did some calculations and it won't matter either way. That being said, DE needs a lot more mod choice to assist those unskilled players if they intended to implement this. Otherwise they will be left with sub-par mods in those slots if they choose not to use your aforementioned skill-indexed mods. I would say, leave damage to skill-indexed, and give them specialized utility mods based on the respective weapon mechanic, similar to Nightwatch Napalm for Ogris. Adds diversity to the choice of builds, and they won't fall back too much for being unskilled. There's also still the incentive to become more skillful if they do prefer more damage.  

Also, it is attention to point at enemies, not their heads. I didn't say anything about rewards either. The difference is typically skilled players will finish missions quicker due to more damage, whilst unskilled players can still complete those missions, just slower.

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Ancient healers and bombards send their regards...

Didn't you want challenge? The enemy synergy actually proves for a difficult one.

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The problem with the current EV is in just how brain dead and easy it is use and how massively rewarding it is. One good suggestion for EV I've seen is to make it give teammates an aura similar to disruptors so they can steal energy on hit.

The whole point of nerfing EV was to make energy actually scarce. Even if Trin was removed right now, we could still have abundant energy thanks to restores and Energy overflow.

Good suggestion indeed. Might want to put that in the original post.

I hope you read my post though. You wanted to place restrictions on restore use as well as EV. Given the reduced efficiency to mods, 100 energy per 5 seconds (along with your proposed limits per restore) may or may not be sufficient depending on the mission. Also, not everyone will have Energy Overflow, due to the quest requirement, and time investment which will be much longer after Draco disappears in Star Chart 3.0. I guess everything from that point rides on how EV is reworked, since it is for people who don't have or don't want to drop restores.

Edited June 25, 2016 by -CM-Emptiness

[NN13]

On 6/18/2016 at 2:26 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

That doesn't change that it's argumentum ad populum. 142 people holding an opinion that is wrong don't suddenly become right because they're the majority. Also, the post amounted to "no nerfs pl0x" which isn't really an argument so much as it is a statement. Why not nerf? Who decides when it's enough nerfing? How does this affect the rest of the game? All questions 142 people neglected to answer. 

Ah, "argumentum ad populum" indeed. True enough. Popular opinion does not turn a fallacy into a truth.

However, "argumentum ad populum" DOES NOT hold true in this particular case.

I could ask you a few questions just like you answered with questions -

What is right in this case?

Who decides what is right? You? OP?

Just as you said "Why not nerf?", I would say "Why nerf?". Does that make me wrong and are you right? No, absolutely not. Just as I am no one to decide that nerf is not required, you are no one to decide that nerf is required.

It is pretty ironic that you used "argumentum ad populum" as your counter-argument while there is no one who is right or wrong here. Everything is perspective. You and OP think everything is overpowered, I do not. That absolutely does not mean that you or OP is right and I am wrong.

Therefore, since there is no clear definition of right or wrong here, the best way to decide is to go by popularity.

Even DE sometimes goes by popularity. Remember Viver and specific ability nerfs and how DE reverted back? Yes. Maybe DE thought nerfing specific frames was right. For all its worth, maybe DE were right. But players did not agree with the change, thus the result we saw.

DE does a very good job at including player opinions in their game development. I do not want that to change. This is not mathematics where popular opinions can be refuted. This is a bussiness that depends on happy gamers. Therefore, popularity matters.

[(PSN)Doctor-Blitz-]

For me is being overpowered because of a clever load out and choice of frame pure fun. A few days ago I made som T4 survival and was overpowered but it was the most fun in the last weeks. 

The game is about selecting a clever load out and having fun.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

If 3 out of 100 players say yes they feel justified

oops, oh right i forgot: if history tells us anything then it's that mainstream conceptions of reality were always in the right at all times... stupid me.

3 hours ago, NN13 said:

snip about perspectives.

you make some valid points, the only ones defining right and wrong in this game are DE themselves in the end (though personally i can't see them consistently following any master plan)...

still

the game holds enough objective balance discrepancies which are perfectly analysable by anyone's logical thinking. like an extreme example: if this game had 2 weapons only, stats excatly the same only one is aoe and the other single target only: the former is clearly better, makes the other one completely redundant, it's an objective disbalance. sure things aren't as easy in warframe but c'mon: some weapons and frames so totally outshine the others to a degree where the game can hardly be called a game anymore. now imagine if in my first example the second weapon's damage output would be nerfed to a certain degree so that it approx. deals similar amounts of damage diffused across mobs like the first on single targets, giving them both pupose and flavor: isn't this pure objective balancing by any stretch of the imagination?

yeah, difficulty is highly subjective of course but pressing one button for half an hour... sorry, that's not even worth a discussion in my book, it's laughable.

and

just citing myself here out of laziness:

On 25.3.2016 at 2:19 PM, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

The devs naturally want to make the game appeal to an audience as diverse as possible, including people who like challenge. That's why sorties and nightmare raids were added. (...) The devs never went "Oh you want challenge huh just take your unmodded MK-1 weapons to t4 surv"... they WANT to give us proper endgame but continue to fail and the OPness of certain weapons and skills is the main reason.

 

[NN13]

4 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

oops, oh right i forgot: if history tells us anything then it's that mainstream conceptions of reality were always in the right at all times... stupid me.

you make some valid points, the only ones defining right and wrong in this game are DE themselves in the end (though personally i can't see them consistently following any master plan)...

still

the game holds enough objective balance discrepancies which are perfectly analysable by anyone's logical thinking. like an extreme example: if this game had 2 weapons only, stats excatly the same only one is aoe and the other single target only: the former is clearly better, makes the other one completely redundant, it's an objective disbalance. sure things aren't as easy in warframe but c'mon: some weapons and frames so totally outshine the others to a degree where the game can hardly be called a game anymore. now imagine if in my first example the second weapon's damage output would be nerfed to a certain degree so that it approx. deals similar amounts of damage diffused across mobs like the first on single targets, giving them both pupose and flavor: isn't this pure objective balancing by any stretch of the imagination?

yeah, difficulty is highly subjective of course but pressing one button for half an hour... sorry, that's not even worth a discussion in my book, it's laughable.

and

just citing myself here out of laziness:

 

First things first, I am not against balance, but to nerf every source of energy and turn Warframe into a mere shooter with a few abilities here and there? No, thanks.

If you read the original post, the poster asked for a nerf to efficiency and energy in general. That is not the way to go.

I have said in another post before(which is lost in the 26 pages, but kudos to you if you find it out from my profile), I myself do not like the fact Ember can just turn on WoF and kill everything in a wide radius just by running around. But that does not mean we should balance it by nerfing efficiency and energy. If WoF is the problem, change the WoF mechanism.

Same goes for your example. AoE weapon versus single-target weapon. Most AoE weapon have self-damage, that is the drawback you get from AoE weapons. You hit 10 enemies instead of one, but have the risk of being caught in the blast radius.

Tonkor and Simulor, however, lacks this feature. Now, it would not be a problem it self damage is added to simulor. But Tonkor needs to be balanced in some other way. The reason why Tonkor can not have self damage is because of how it has to be aimed. It is very hard to not be caught in Tonkor's blast radius.

Another AoE weapon that does not have self-damage is Torid. But, it is perfectly fine. Torid is a DoT gun and that is it's drawback. Unlike Ogris or Penta, it does not wipe 10 enemies instantly.

It is true that devs wants to cater to different types of gamers, but at what cost? Because if OP's suggestions were implemented, It would be catering to players who like challenge at the cost of players who do not like challenge and play Warframe casually for fun. And trust me, the Warframe community has more of the later kind of players than the former kind.

[blackheartstar_pc]

9 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The whole point of nerfing EV was to make energy actually scarce. Even if Trin was removed right now, we could still have abundant energy thanks to restores and Energy overflow.

Well hell if you want to put it like that why not also suggest dropping the energy orb drop rate to rare stance levels and have the Energy Siphon aura removed?

Scarce energy. Do you want our powers to be onetime use permission or would you rather them just remove them all together?

[Azrael]

9 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

That's where you're wrong. It far more beneficial for DE to make things overly difficult for a while than to make it overly easy....

The problem with the current EV is in just how brain dead and easy it is use and how massively rewarding it is. One good suggestion for EV I've seen is to make it give teammates an aura similar to disruptors so they can steal energy on hit.

Okay, so as much as it pains me to agree with you (jk), I agree that it's better to make things hard before making them easy, rather than the other way around. Otherwise we'll get used to the easiness and then complain.

But you couldn't be more wrong about EV trinity. An EV trinity is a squishy frame with no means of self defense, and only one usable skill. A player who plays EV has agreed to take on enormous risk in order to support his team. Playing an EV requires skill just to stay alive, since Link and Well of Life are completely useless, and Bless essentially offers no DR at all. Also playing EV is very active, since you must constantly use your one ability while still staying alive. In LoR the EV is a difficult position to play, because you must constantly keep the bomb carrier filled with energy while surviving amongst powerful enemies who are often not CC'd because the CC frames haven't caught up yet or can't overuse their CC for fear of stopping the bomb from spawning (in the final part). You have to be fast (to keep up with the bomb carrier in the first part), vigilant (to keep track of where the bomb is and find enemies to EV before he runs out of energy), and agile (to avoid death).

Giving players an aura would make EV truly brain-dead to play, and eliminate the need for the trinity to place herself at any real risk. Especially since an aura sounds like a duration and range based skill, that would mean that a trinity built for link and blessing  will be good at EV, and we would be severely limiting build variety as well as basically giving the EV trinity a serious buff.

Once again we come back to this point: you can't talk about what it's like to play EV at high levels because you haven't played that role at those levels, and you haven't done the raids at all.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 hours ago, NN13 said:

First things first, I am not against balance, but to nerf every source of energy and turn Warframe into a mere shooter with a few abilities here and there? No, thanks.

If you read the original post, the poster asked for a nerf to efficiency and energy in general. That is not the way to go.

I have said in another post before(which is lost in the 26 pages, but kudos to you if you find it out from my profile), I myself do not like the fact Ember can just turn on WoF and kill everything in a wide radius just by running around. But that does not mean we should balance it by nerfing efficiency and energy. If WoF is the problem, change the WoF mechanism.

Same goes for your example. AoE weapon versus single-target weapon. Most AoE weapon have self-damage, that is the drawback you get from AoE weapons. You hit 10 enemies instead of one, but have the risk of being caught in the blast radius.

Tonkor and Simulor, however, lacks this feature. Now, it would not be a problem it self damage is added to simulor. But Tonkor needs to be balanced in some other way. The reason why Tonkor can not have self damage is because of how it has to be aimed. It is very hard to not be caught in Tonkor's blast radius.

Another AoE weapon that does not have self-damage is Torid. But, it is perfectly fine. Torid is a DoT gun and that is it's drawback. Unlike Ogris or Penta, it does not wipe 10 enemies instantly.

It is true that devs wants to cater to different types of gamers, but at what cost? Because if OP's suggestions were implemented, It would be catering to players who like challenge at the cost of players who do not like challenge and play Warframe casually for fun. And trust me, the Warframe community has more of the later kind of players than the former kind.

i didn't want to reduce you to be of this or that "faction" in this discussion, i apologize if i did, especially if it's the wrong one. i read the thread and try to keep track but it's not always easy (those avs don't help much either XP)...

while i'm not neccessarily d'accord with each and every word in the op myself i do share most of his thoughts towards energy economy.

i feel the thing is: DE has to decide. are our powers something to be used wisely, tiered and with a restriction system or are all equally to be bread and butter. both can work, both can be balanced but not the same way. bladestorm, my latest example, is obviously an old skill from a time before even corrupted mods etc. even this extremely powerful and passive skill could work inside the game if one could only use it from time to time, after wisely saving up for it for that one, critical situation. since we don't actually have any energy economy anymore however something like that is simply broken. since in theory we still have tiered skills and costs and an energy bar etc. i tend to agree with op: the means for energy aquisition have to be nerfed or at the very least tweaked / changed. if however we go the second path the whole thing should be reworked from the ground up: then that energy bar is nothing but a redundant, obsolete antique, just like stamina before.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir
bad english

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

31 minutes ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

Well hell if you want to put it like that why not also suggest dropping the energy orb drop rate to rare stance levels and have the Energy Siphon aura removed?

Scarce energy. Do you want our powers to be onetime use permission or would you rather them just remove them all together?

Yes yes, exaggerate away. You're one of those posters that can't see beyond black and white. Just because you don't have infinite energy doesn't mean you have 0.

5 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Never mind, did some calculations and it won't matter either way. That being said, DE needs a lot more mod choice to assist those unskilled players if they intended to implement this. Otherwise they will be left with sub-par mods in those slots if they choose not to use your aforementioned skill-indexed mods. I would say, leave damage to skill-indexed, and give them specialized utility mods based on the respective weapon mechanic, similar to Nightwatch Napalm for Ogris. Adds diversity to the choice of builds, and they won't fall back too much for being unskilled. There's also still the incentive to become more skillful if they do prefer more damage.  

Good suggestion, however I must say that I feel as if you and a few others treat conditional mods as some sort of uber skilled mods when they're not. Sure, some require you to hit headshots, but some only require a different play style, not mad skills. The way I figured was that stacking multiple synergistic conditional mods would provide the most benefit and require the most skill, but using only one would be much easier and some aren't even that hard to use. The point was to make modding system actually change how you use your weapon instead of just changing it's statistics, though as you pointed out, my suggestion is only one of multiple possible solutions.

5 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

I hope you read my post though. You wanted to place restrictions on restore use as well as EV. Given the reduced efficiency to mods, 100 energy per 5 seconds (along with your proposed limits per restore) may or may not be sufficient depending on the mission. Also, not everyone will have Energy Overflow, due to the quest requirement, and time investment which will be much longer after Draco disappears in Star Chart 3.0. I guess everything from that point rides on how EV is reworked, since it is for people who don't have or don't want to drop restores.

The details on balancing would have to be figured and fine tuned with play testing, but I still think it's necessary to rebalance both. Restores are basically team wide potions and each member can use 200 of each per mission. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want to rework a game into one where using restores becomes a necessity on all levels, but the fact that we have them means that people will use them. I also want to remind you that I didn't even propose removing fleeting expertise, It would still be possible to achieve cap 75% cast reduction, but there would be harsher downsides. Streamline would get downsides (it's supposed to streamline) -18%: range, power and duration on max rank), Fleeting expertise would change to -42%: range,duration and strength on max rank. Maxing efficiency would therefore end up with -50% strength, duration and range. Therefore a player would be forced to choose between: a weaker spammable build, a more powerful specialized build or anything in between.

9 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

But you couldn't be more wrong about EV trinity. An EV trinity is a squishy frame with no means of self defense, and only one usable skill. A player who plays EV has agreed to take on enormous risk in order to support his team. Playing an EV requires skill just to stay alive, since Link and Well of Life are completely useless, and Bless essentially offers no DR at all. Also playing EV is very active, since you must constantly use your one ability while still staying alive. In LoR the EV is a difficult position to play, because you must constantly keep the bomb carrier filled with energy while surviving amongst powerful enemies who are often not CC'd because the CC frames haven't caught up yet or can't overuse their CC for fear of stopping the bomb from spawning (in the final part). You have to be fast (to keep up with the bomb carrier in the first part), vigilant (to keep track of where the bomb is and find enemies to EV before he runs out of energy), and agile (to avoid death).

 Ok. And how is it like playing EV trin outside LoR? From my experience, they usually camp in the bubble and spamm EV or stay in the back of the team supplying the team with energy and overshields.

9 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Giving players an aura would make EV truly brain-dead to play, and eliminate the need for the trinity to place herself at any real risk. Especially since an aura sounds like a duration and range based skill, that would mean that a trinity built for link and blessing  will be good at EV, and we would be severely limiting build variety as well as basically giving the EV trinity a serious buff.

Bless trin is build for range now? From my experience Bless trin is built for duration and strength not range. Having a below 100% range would mean that your team would have to stay close in order to be affected by the EV aura so if anything EV would be nerfed because she'll need some duration, but then again she will also finally be able and forced to use her weapons instead of just spamming EV all the time. Furthermore, EV bonus would only proc on weapon or aimed ability hit and would be limited to proccing only every few seconds.

5 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

while I'm not necessarily d'accord with each and every word in the op myself i do share most of his thoughts towards energy economy.

i feel the thing is: DE has to decide. are our powers something to be used wisely, tiered and with a restriction system or are all equally to be bread and butter. both can work, both can be balanced but not the same way. bladestorm, my latest example, is obviously an old skill from a time before even corrupted mods etc. even this extremely powerful and passive skill could work inside the game if one could only use it from time to time, after wisely saving up for it for that one, critical situation. since we don't actually have any energy economy anymore however something like that is simply broken. since in theory we still have tiered skills and costs and an energy bar etc. i tend to agree with op, the means to energy acquisition have to be nerfed or at the very least tweaked. if however we go the second path the whole thing should be reworked. then that energy bar is nothing but a redundant antiquity, just like stamina before.

This! DE has to decide whether players are supposed to spam abilities or use them sparingly, because they'll never be able to balance the game otherwise. Personally, I think balancing the game would be much easier if abilities were rare. There would be no need for abundant nullifiers and Leech eximuses and enemies would actually present a legitimate threat since they wouldn't be CCed all the time or die too quickly. On the other hand, if abilities were meant to be spammable, DE would be forced to give enemies some form of ability resistance or more ways to nullify warframes in order for enemies to present any actual threat beyond crazy EHP and damage.

[Soketsu]

29 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 Ok. And how is it like playing EV trin outside LoR? From my experience, they usually camp in the bubble and spamm EV or stay in the back of the team supplying the team with energy and overshields.

Yes from your experience...

Spoiler

35 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

You're one of those posters that can't see beyond black and white

the irony from the one who ignore when he can't answer since he lack global vision of the game but doesn't matter he know better than the others what we have to do

 

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

 Ok. And how is it like playing EV trin outside LoR? From my experience, they usually camp in the bubble and spamm EV or stay in the back of the team supplying the team with energy and overshields.

Bless trin is build for range now? From my experience Bless trin is built for duration and strength not range. Having a below 100% range would mean that your team would have to stay close in order to be affected by the EV aura so if anything EV would be nerfed because she'll need some duration, but then again she will also finally be able and forced to use her weapons instead of just spamming EV all the time. Furthermore, EV bonus would only proc on weapon or aimed ability hit and would be limited to proccing only every few seconds.

Man, I wrote out this really great, long response, but then the forums hiccuped and deleted it...

Basically, your judging EV trinity according to what it's like to play her in a boring meta-camp on draco. Try taking her to a survival mission where nobody camps in a bubble (we never do that) and see what it's like.

As far as Bless trinity is concerned, you're behind the times. The recent nerfs mean that Bless is easier to use, with a much lower skill cap. The thing to do now (I had a great explanation for why, but I'm too frustrated to type it again on this tablet) is to throw some range on there and use link to supplement the DR from bless. Basically, lower duration can be handled because you don't have to self-damage. In other words,  a Bless trin is now a link trin (what we call Battle Jesus) that casts Bless a lot.

This is what the nerfs have accomplished.  A frame that's less effective, but easier to play. Less reward, but a lower skill cap. And 2 builds (with 2 corresponding ways to play) have been merged into one, so there's less build variation now. That's why people have been fighting nerfs: they don't want the game "dumbed down".

[Azrael]

Apparently I can't edit posts on this tablet. What I was trying to do was add this last bit:

*Edit: I forgot to say  (I said it in my previous attempt at posting) that a lot of people have been asking for nerfs to EV. Most of the time, the result of such nerfs would be turning the 2 remaining builds into just one. The result would be not only a less effective frame, but a frame that's boring to play and build, a lower skill cap, and less rewarding play. Keep in mind, the reason people,  ask for trinity is that she's really the only support frame in the game. The others just have a support ability that isn't as effective.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

59 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Man, I wrote out this really great, long response, but then the forums hiccuped and deleted it...

Basically, your judging EV trinity according to what it's like to play her in a boring meta-camp on draco. Try taking her to a survival mission where nobody camps in a bubble (we never do that) and see what it's like.

 Or boring Void defense, interceptions,... Why would you even take EV trin in a survival? I always take BJ.
 

Quote

As far as Bless trinity is concerned, you're behind the times. The recent nerfs mean that Bless is easier to use, with a much lower skill cap. The thing to do now (I had a great explanation for why, but I'm too frustrated to type it again on this tablet) is to throw some range on there and use link to supplement the DR from bless. Basically, lower duration can be handled because you don't have to self-damage. In other words,  a Bless trin is now a link trin (what we call Battle Jesus) that casts Bless a lot.

This is what the nerfs have accomplished.  A frame that's less effective, but easier to play. Less reward, but a lower skill cap. And 2 builds (with 2 corresponding ways to play) have been merged into one, so there's less build variation now. That's why people have been fighting nerfs: they don't want the game "dumbed down".

Are you seriously implying that self damage 99% bless trin was hard to play? Anyway, I get your point and as far as Trinities go, I usually go with Battle jesus too, since we get all remaining energy from EV on kill, but it's not like the range of Battle jesus is anywhere near EV (at least not on my builds).

So, what are your suggestions for trinity reworks? Or are you one of those who think that trin is fine as it is?

As for your edit, wasn't the biggest hit to trin variability caused by EV buff to award remaining energy on kill? Battle Jesus works just fine now as an EV stand in.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[IceColdHawk]

56 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

This is what the nerfs have accomplished.  A frame that's less effective, but easier to play. Less reward, but a lower skill cap. And 2 builds (with 2 corresponding ways to play) have been merged into one, so there's less build variation now. That's why people have been fighting nerfs: they don't want the game "dumbed down".

Exactly agreeing with you there.

I don't care about trinity losing her "pseudo god mode" or "infinite mana". I don't rely on them. But i do for sure care for a well-balanced and USEFUL frame. Unfortunately, this is not the case currently.

Edited June 25, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Chipputer]

29 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

But i do for sure care for a well-balanced and USEFUL frame. Unfortunately, this is not the case currently.

And also wasn't the case before.

I'll take a developer erring on the side of UP and still useful than leaving something firmly in the OP camp. Trinity is plenty serviceable as she is now. Beyond that, her builds are the exact same they always were, minus the self damage to get to 99% (lol @ "she took more skill before," implying that anybody actually used her in that manner)-- you still have minimal duration, high power for EV and high duration, medium power for Blessing. There was no change to build diversity. I don't know what Trinity you guys are looking at.