something for players to think about

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

9 hours ago, Trichouette said:

Ash definitely needs my tiny plus skill that nobody else has to be that efficient.

I mean, clearly I'm the only one who think about pressing 4, you guys should step up your game.

im more of a press 3 myself

[WARLOCKE]

1 hour ago, mobilehacker said:

Hahaha, i never use Tonkor, my favorite guns is Rakta Cernos, Akstiletto Prime and War.

Hahahaha. Im not talking about the tonkor, Lets see how long it takes for you to get what I WAS talking about.

[WARLOCKE]

17 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I agree. I do. While I know some tweaks are needed so we cannot trvialize everything, we still need to retain powers.

Unfortunately the git gud crowd cannot be reasoned with. They claim to want balance but they don't. They want the game their way. And they are vocal enough to get it.

At which point, they will sit back and wonder at the slower pace of updates, followed by the games being shut down due to a lack of a player base.

All the while wondering what happened , utterly oblivious to their role in the matter.

These people deserve to be challenged. We do need harder missions. With Rathuum caliber AI and limited power use. 

But we don't need every mission to be that way. 

Warframe is an ARPG, not a tactical shooter. More people need to understand that. And the devs themselves need to chime in on this issue and establish clear expectations for where their game is headed.

Thats a wonderful novel you just wrote.

[WARLOCKE]

16 minutes ago, Berserkerkitten said:

I remember the first time I played a Tower IV mission ages ago, when void keys were still new and it was one of the most difficult things I ever had to do on Warframe. Enemies would hit me pretty much the same moment they could see me, they'd deal insane amounts of damage and I had to run and dodge and shoot stuff before it killed me and things were actually pretty challenging.

Today I have difficulty staying awake in some missions before the 40th wave or 40 minutes on the survival timer, when things finally start picking up a little bit. And it's still far from challenging at this point. Today we get focus abilities for invisibility, insta-kill mods for daggers, warframe abilities that hit for millions of damage, hilariously deadly melee red crits and some insanely powerful primed mods. 

I can appreciate that newer players don't have all of those things yet. I can understand that some folks simply lack hand-eye-coordination and that today's games have to be playable by people with the reaction and cognitive abilities of three year olds (present forumers excepted) to appeal to as broad an audience as somehow possible. But Warframe isn't a difficult game. It's easier than it ever has been. And when some builds and certain playstyles make it possible to solo a mission on the highest possible difficulty for over seven hours or when whole rooms full of enemies die the second they spawn to a single player's ability in what's supposed to be a cooperative game, then yes, sometimes you simply have to take out the nerf bat.

The only way to get some semblance of challenge right now is by deliberately gimping oneself or playing some of the tougher sorties, only to receive 25 fusion cores or a part of some weapon that already exists in your inventory three times. Or sit through an hour of t4 survival until stuff finally gets strong enough to kill you. Again, I'm aware things are different to newer, more inexperienced players, but the game simply isn't hard. I drag new friends into this game all the time, my 60 year old mother in law plays Warframe, it's simply not a tough game. It just isn't.

Thank you, thank you and thank you again.

[mixok]

Ivara's nerf (balancing) is coming! Im pretty sure she is in the black list XD

[-CM-Hekovashi]

I don't like when players ask devs to nerf something because they don't like it or it against their definition of "Fun". You don't like playing with players that blow up everything with tonkors\ashes-don't play with them, but dont ask for tonkor nerfs ether.

Without that nerf you HAVE a choice to play with tonkor\ash player or not, but if nerf apply-that person who love that frame\gun DON'T gonna have a choice, and all if this because you can't adapt to his playstyle or simple run with another team, that more suitable for you.

I have zero problem when my teammates kill stuff fast-less work for me.

[Zarozian]

It's like being One Punch Man.

You can't fight the good fight if you beat everything with just one punch. =/

[Bizzaro21]

oh look another one!

well, tbh I agree with both sides, if something gets too powerful it ruins the game and has to be nerfed, but also people go too far with nerf demands

what a middle ground is, IMHO, is that if u find smth op just leave it, and if something can get u to minute 100 in surv. solo it doesnt have to be broken, maybe its u good at it? or perhaps just it being good in that context....

peace

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

54 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

Some abilities/weapons just weren't thought out well and need to be toned down.

I agree Tonkor is stronk but Maim? At higher levels you need to build the damage before it can kill anything, and even before that all it does is stagger the enemy a bit. Another ability that doesn't work in high level ranges is Inaros's self rez. Good luck getting enough damage in before bleeding out. That one changes priority as well. All you can do is incapacitate nearby enemies while waiting for a teammate to revive you. Ember burns through hordes of enemies till later when you'll need the aug for some cc and need to combine it with accelerant. Low level stuff is supposed to die easy when you get advanced gear. 

I don't see this problem with vets getting what they want. Every noob becomes a vet eventually. Want to murder everything easy? There's plenty of pray n spray weapons off the meta. Ignis goes through walls. Supra is a gattling gun. But if you turn up the difficulty for challenge it has to meet those demands in some way. And if something gets too nerfed (Mesa) they'll get buffed again.

Why do people not want change? You go through change your whole lives. Does no one see what the game could be instead of what it is?

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

The reason he is seeing a less than fuzzy response is that the whole nerf situation has been gone over ad nauseam in recent months and people are getting tired of saying the same thing over and over to educate other players on the matter. At this point im down to the very basics. Which is go play a easier level if you cant handle higher content. No shame in that. Just gets annoying dealing with the entitlement is all. But point taken. I suppose we as players should always be giving a modicum of civility to each other. 

In truth, 

I can take your reasoning and turn it on it's head just as easily.

The problem is not nerfs or lack thereof. The problem is lack of gameplay options found in a reasonable time frame for all skill levels. That includes engaging, challenging, and outright boring.

You can say, "Gut Gud" or "Go Play Mercury". Another can just as easily say, "Create your own challenges" or "Show enough restraint to stop using abilities" or "Play solo"

Each assertion is as valid as the other.

When you want to see the game changed to suit your personal vision, you should expect push-back. You are, at that point, asking that other's experience be changed to support your expectations...That's entitlement in a nutshell.

...Just food for thought.

FWIW, I'm not saying your expectations are wrong, I am saying that the argument runs both ways and is a sign of a much larger issue at play.

We need to identify that issue and have meaningful discourse about it... That's what I hope the Bourbon List is meant to signify.

 

 

 

 

[Eminem2420]

Yet another post whining about people giving their opinions and feedback. Instead of making another post complaining, you should make your own post about how you think it should change or remain the same. This thread accomplishes nothing, and only encourages hatred towards fellow players based on nothing more than their opinion.

[WARLOCKE]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

In truth, 

I can take your reasoning and turn it on it's head just as easily.

The problem is not nerfs or lack thereof. The problem is lack of gameplay options found in a reasonable time frame for all skill levels. That includes engaging, challenging, and outright boring.

You can say, "Gut Gud" or "Go Play Mercury". Another can just as easily say, "Create your own challenges" or "Show enough restraint to stop using abilities" or "Play solo"

Each assertion is as valid as the other.

When you want to see the game changed to suit your personal vision, you should expect push-back. You are, at that point, asking that other's experience be changed to support your expectations...That's entitlement in a nutshell.

...Just food for thought.

FWIW, I'm not saying your expectations are wrong, I am saying that the argument runs both ways and is a sign of a much larger issue at play.

We need to identify that issue and have meaningful discourse about it... That's what I hope the Bourbon List is meant to signify.

 

 

 

 

I dont think you can. Im not asking for the game to be changed because I cant keep up. In a progression based game such as warframe you have a rising level of difficulty meant to test the skills/gear you have gained through the game up until that point. Thats how these things work by nature. To ask or even to hint that the game should be toned down because you are not ready for that higher level of content is just silly. I should not have to explain why  I have not the asked the devs anything in quite some time, if ever. I have made statements about my thoughts on things, never asked. 

The problem is this is the age of entitlement. I know I over use that word but it is simply the best word to describe what is going on. The devs have a vision and plan on what they want this game to be. A cakewalk is not one of them, thankfully. Which I just so happen to support.

In the end I have no problem with feedback. I have a problem when feedback becomes repeated to such a extent it becomes toxic. Not saying the OP is toxic in any way. This is not feedback. This is someone asking for a pass, in a sense. Im telling them to go replay content that is suited to their skill/gear  Im not some expert pro mlg warframe player. Im totally average in fact. What I do have is extensive time played and the very top level of gear/mods. If I can surmount almost any challenge currently in the game solo, then this player can do it to once he is at the appropriate level.

Edited June 30, 2016 by WARLOCKE

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

55 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

"Go Play Mercury"

im mastery 14 and i play apollo, i also play the dark sector defense on earth for enjoyment, yet i hate draco and other high leveled nodes. i am literally the human version of starscream, cause i like to pick at the weak and run from a challenge (even though t4 surv solo is pretty easy for me) dont judge me, but seriously...

Jesus H Crimeny Christmas Christ, Wtf am i doing in my life.

And because this is the internet, i take offense from your statement, good sir. not really

[Tizodd]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

I agree Tonkor is stronk but Maim? At higher levels you need to build the damage before it can kill anything, and even before that all it does is stagger the enemy a bit...

When I say Maim is overpowered I'm not referring to the initial slash proc, I'm referring to the accumulated damage nuke you unleash after enemies have been killed in Maim's radius.

[WARLOCKE]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Fusion GRX said:

im mastery 14 and i play apollo, i also play the dark sector defense on earth for enjoyment, yet i hate draco and other high leveled nodes. i am literally the human version of starscream, cause i like to pick at the weak and run from a challenge (even though t4 surv solo is pretty easy for me) dont judge me, but seriously...

Jesus H Crimeny Christmas Christ, Wtf am i doing in my life.

And because this is the internet, i take offense from your statement, good sir. not really

Well then, if Starscream is your muse I fully support you! I mean if you have to be a dirtball, do it in style :D.

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

Just now, WARLOCKE said:

Well then, if Starscream is your muse I fully support you! I mean if you have to be a dirtball, do it in style :D.

indeed

[BlackCoMerc]

16 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

When I say Maim is overpowered I'm not referring to the initial slash proc, I'm referring to the accumulated damage nuke you unleash after enemies have been killed in Maim's radius.

But it takes time to build up to the proc. To me, this is the right kind of Nuke, if you are going to have one.

Nowhere close to World of Boredom or Boredom Storm...

[Tizodd]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

But it takes time to build up to the proc. To me, this is the right kind of Nuke, if you are going to have one.

Nowhere close to World of Boredom or Boredom Storm...

Good point.  It does require some build-up for it to become powerful so it's not technically a press-4-to-win ability.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

When I say Maim is overpowered I'm not referring to the initial slash proc, I'm referring to the accumulated damage nuke you unleash after enemies have been killed in Maim's radius.

 

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

But it takes time to build up to the proc. To me, this is the right kind of Nuke, if you are going to have one.

Nowhere close to World of Boredom or Boredom Storm...

 

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

Good point.  It does require some build-up for it to become powerful so it's not technically a press-4-to-win ability.

 

I see this resolved itself. *flies away*

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

I dont think you can.

I already have. 

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

Im not asking for the game to be changed because I cant keep up.

No, you want to see it changed because you feel you have outpaced it... Ostensibly the same thing. "Remember my needs when you think about changing the game" is the issue the OP has taken, your stance is no different. Arguing "entitlement" is the pot calling the kettle black in this case.

That said, I agree with both of you.

There should be reliable game spaces that meet both of your aspirations and needs.

There presently aren't without rather large caveats and that's a problem.

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

In a progression based game such as warframe you have a rising level of difficulty meant to test the skills/gear you have gained through the game up until that point. Thats how these things work by nature. To ask or even to hint that the game should be toned down because you are not ready for that higher level of content is just silly. I should not have to explain why  I have not the asked the devs anything in quite some time, if ever. I have made statements about my thoughts on things,

The good news is that no one is asking to have the game toned down to meet their needs. The OP asked that their needs be taken into account when people go nerf herding.

Asking for basic thought and consideration to be extended isn't an unfair request and there are examples of it not having been shown with player requests in the past. 

• Arcane Helmets removal (I bet new players absolutely love the old players for that nonsense)
• Synoid Gammacor' nerf (the change was like someone literally pooped in a crowded elevator...It was so bad even folks who asked for the nerf were like, "It got over-nerfed")
• Valkyr's buff (Invulnerability and high damage? What's the worst that could happen?!?)

 Those are just three examples of changes that got made due to player request that impacted the gameplay of others.

  The simple fact of the matter is that the content where such items and mechanics makes sense doesn't exist or isn't easily gotten to. Put simply, many of the folks asking for nerfs (not saying you) want the max quality/effect gear to matter (It should) every place (it shouldn't).

It's the functional equivalent of asking to have your Raid Geared toon find relevant challenge in the starter zones of the game (That's not to say that this doesn't exist, I am saying it doesn't exist here).

The stance of, "I want challenge...Nerf all of the things until I get it" makes no sense if, in the process, every player that doesn't share the requester's gameplay vision and aspirations suffers. I am not saying you are doing this, but you and I have been in threads where that was exactly what was being requested.

FWIW, I'm not attacking or deriding you... I am saying that I see no real difference between either of your stances.

If both of your needs and aspirations are to get met, then something new will need to be added. 

...Hopefully, the Sentient content addresses it.

...Hopefully, the difficulty sliders that might get added address it.

...Hopefully, something gets added to address it.

But here's what we do know: Nerfing ,alone, won't address it. That's been the go-to tactic for 3 years and it hasn't resolved the problem yet.

 

[DxAdder]

15 hours ago, Magicfingers said:

  to the people who keep saying "nerf this...nerf that...it's to OP", i ask you to keep in mind players like me. not everyone is a killing machine like you and can do things easily in this game. some people need that extra bit of power just to be able and try to be as good as you. i would love to be able to play this game, wrecking everything in sight while i watched tv, listened to the radio, and knitted a sweater all at the same time as you apparently can.

  and before you say "git gud", i've been playing this game since the very early days of closed beta. according to my profile in game i have 2,566 hours playing. according to steam i have 3,411 hours in game, so i'm as "gud" as i'm ever gonna qet. and i'm willing to bet there are many, many more just like me out there trying to play the game. and i'm sure there are many, many more out there like you who can wreck this game while they play it. all i'm asking is, before you start yelling "nerf", stop and think about us...the people who need that extra bit of edge to their stuff.

  and even though you have exceptional skills at playing this game,you max out all your stuff..forma things to infinity and beyond and then because you have those amazing skills and made your stuff so over powered it trivializes the game for you, you start yelling nerf at which point when things get nerfed, i have a feeling you throw more forma on things to make it over powered again, then the yelling "nerf" starts again. take a minute or two to think about what nerfing things does to people like me.

   you can take a rank 5 serration doing 90% damage and probably do better than me with a maxed out serration doing 120% damage. you can take a rank 5 hornet strike doing 120% damage and probably out do me with a maxed rank hornet strike doing 220% damage. you can even take a rank 3 pressure point doing 80% damage...hell...maybe even a rank 2 pressure point doing 60% damage and do much better than me with a maxed out pressure point doing 120% damage.

   what i'm getting at is some people, like me, need that extra power or that extra ability strength, just to try and keep up with you. so please, before you start yelling "nerf", think about the little people. the people that don't have your skill set. instead of nerfing things in the whole game, nerf yourself. don't equip a maxed out mod or whatever when, with your abilities, you could easily get by with things not maxed out and forma'd to death. have pity on your fellow, not as good as you are, tenno.

Don't PUG.

Only your friends/clan mates are going to be willing to carry you on difficult missions, there is no mercy in a PUG.

 

 

[WARLOCKE]

22 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I already have. 

No, you want to see it changed because you feel you have outpaced it... Ostensibly the same thing. "Remember my needs when you think about changing the game" is the issue the OP has taken, your stance is no different. Arguing "entitlement" is the pot calling the kettle black in this case.

That said, I agree with both of you.

There should be reliable game spaces that meet both of your aspirations and needs.

There presently aren't without rather large caveats and that's a problem.

The good news is that no one is asking to have the game toned down to meet their needs. The OP asked that their needs be taken into account when people go nerf herding.

Asking for basic thought and consideration to be extended isn't an unfair request and there are examples of it not having been shown with player requests in the past. 

• Arcane Helmets removal (I bet new players absolutely love the old players for that nonsense)
• Synoid Gammacor' nerf (the change was like someone literally pooped in a crowded elevator...It was so bad even folks who asked for the nerf were like, "It got over-nerfed")
• Valkyr's buff (Invulnerability and high damage? What's the worst that could happen?!?)

 Those are just three examples of changes that got made due to player request that impacted the gameplay of others.

  The simple fact of the matter is that the content where such items and mechanics makes sense doesn't exist or isn't easily gotten to. Put simply, many of the folks asking for nerfs (not saying you) want the max quality/effect gear to matter (It should) every place (it shouldn't).

It's the functional equivalent of asking to have your Raid Geared toon find relevant challenge in the starter zones of the game (That's not to say that this doesn't exist, I am saying it doesn't exist here).

The stance of, "I want challenge...Nerf all of the things until I get it" makes no sense if, in the process, every player that doesn't share the requester's gameplay vision and aspirations suffers. I am not saying you are doing this, but you and I have been in threads where that was exactly what was being requested.

FWIW, I'm not attacking or deriding you... I am saying that I see no real difference between either of your stances.

If both of your needs and aspirations are to get met, then something new will need to be added. 

...Hopefully, the Sentient content addresses it.

...Hopefully, the difficulty sliders that might get added address it.

...Hopefully, something gets added to address it.

But here's what we do know: Nerfing ,alone, won't address it. That's been the go-to tactic for 3 years and it hasn't resolved the problem yet.

 

Hey man. Very sorry it took a day to get back to this. 

I dont want the game changed because I have out paced it. I want cheat codes (or what amounts to them) to be taken out of the game. Why? Because the game has jumped the shark. There is no further DE can go to provide a challenge. And this does not just affect me, eventually everyone will feel it as they progress to my current point in the power curve. It has nothing to do with ME at all really, other than im an example to be used to describe the situation. The OP on the other hand......

What the op is requesting is just that. His skill and current gear level being factored into balance pass's. Well maybe not his in particular but the group he belongs in. The fact is he has tons of content to play until he is ready for higher end missions. There is no need to factor that. It already exists. But to use a better point let me introduce the following.

A month or so ago when the tonkor rebellion was still but a new born, a poster had made a statement that because he was disabled that the tonkor should not be nerfed and balance should not be worked on simply because he could not play the game without the crutch the tonkor provides. I told him the same thing Ive told the OP. Easy content is available until the time comes where he does not need such content to have fun. No players INDIVIDUAL needs or wants should be a factor in game balance. And seeing as you are a very smart boy, I dont need to explain why.

Once more, its not that I want a challenge and I want the game nerfed until I get it. Its the fact the game has hit a wall, and hard. A challenge can no longer be provided due to overpowered gear. I would like to see this fixed. So I campaign for such changes. And I think thats where we disconnect. I dont see wanting something that is broken to be fixed is even in same league with wanting something to suit my needs.

Im sorry it took so long to answer you. I got caught up and as it may seem I enjoy arguing and debating on these forums, I do not. Its actually very draining and I often forget to reply to things in a timely manner. I respect you as a poster, so I didnt want to ignore you or brush what you had to say aside.

[Magicfingers]

ok, this thread seems to have gotten off track. everyone seems to think i'm asking for a change, asking to make the game easier which is not what my post was about. what my post was about was taking into consideration the people that don't have the skill set or reflexes or the eyes of an eagle like top notch players do when you start demanding nerfs on things. think about us before you ask. i know i'm can't be the only one that has problems sometimes with the way game play is. if you think the game is too easy that's great...i'm happy for you. just please think about us players who can't be as good as you no matter what we do or how hard we try.

[Berserkerkitten]

Well, that's just arguing semantics now. Asking for the game to be made easier or telling people to stop asking for nerfs regarding game-breakingly powerful weapons and skills for the sake of keeping things easy, at the end of the day it's all the same. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Berserkerkitten said:

Well, that's just arguing semantics now. Asking for the game to be made easier or telling people to stop asking for nerfs regarding game-breakingly powerful weapons and skills for the sake of keeping things easy, at the end of the day it's all the same. 

But since the OP didn't do either of those things... Why bring them up?