something for players to think about

[Berserkerkitten]

39 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But since the OP didn't do either of those things... Why bring them up?

Oh, you mean apart from when he said this?

Quote

to the people who keep saying "nerf this...nerf that...it's to OP", i ask you to keep in mind players like me

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

@WARLOCKE,

I hear ya...

My point is that I see valid points in both assertions and don't see either side is definitively right.

Op's side is asking for consideration.

 Your side is asking for consideration.

 Both sides are right to ask.

...There's no functional difference between them.

The conclusion that I see very few people coming to is that it's going to take more than just nerfs to fix the problem. One would think after three years of successive nerfs people would arrive at that conclusion but... Nope.

One side wants to knock the crutches out from under the Crutch Brigade™.

The other side wants the Nerf Herders™ to hush. 

In the process, everybody winds up defining everybody else's play experience for them.

Missions in this game typically aren't really competitive after MR 8 or so... Yet the forum is always more full of "Nerf this", than it is "Difficulty Sliders Now".

Missions in this game are co-op by design but competitive in nature... This automatically encourages bad behavior.

Equipment in this game doesn't have parity and isn't comparably balanced against all other equipment types... Yet players are on the "Nerf This" thing instead of asking to have meaningful changes to enemy's DR system added.

The grind is so pervasive it encourages a meta mentality... All the while, what should be fun has become a job to many and the sniping at each continue.

Nerfs, alone, ain't gonna fix the problems in this game. Until we can all get to a point where we can agree on this, the witch hunt will continue.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 minutes ago, Berserkerkitten said:

Oh, you mean apart from when he said this?

 

Nope.

 I mean including that part... Since he didn't do it there either.

2 hours ago, Berserkerkitten said:

Asking for the game to be made easier 

...Didn't do that

2 hours ago, Berserkerkitten said:

or telling people to stop asking for nerfs regarding game-breakingly powerful weapons and skills for the sake of keeping things easy

...Didn't do that either.

I don't see where any item got mentioned at all and I don't see where an instruction was given either.

 

...I do see where the OP asked that folks asking for nerfs be considerate of all skill levels when asking. I don't see that as a big ask personally, but it seems to have rubbed folks the wrong way.

Not surprising though...Considerate nerf herding isn't typically the order of the day around here.

[Berserkerkitten]

Noooope, I'm not getting dragged into this. Have fun.

[puppycorpse]

the whole thing on" get good" is a poor excuse. things need to be put into balance because if something is so powerful it can control whatever mission you do and the whole entire map that's bad.  no one has a limit on skill, all it takes is practice and strategy. heck you can even look up builds on youtube to do what all the so called mlg players do its not that complicated >-> . No one should be able to press one button to win that's just laziness.

Edited July 1, 2016 by puppycorpse

[Magicfingers]

1 hour ago, puppycorpse said:

the whole thing on" get good" is a poor excuse. things need to be put into balance because if something is so powerful it can control whatever mission you do and the whole entire map that's bad.  no one has a limit on skill, all it takes is practice and strategy. heck you can even look up builds on youtube to do what all the so called mlg players do its not that complicated >-> . No one should be able to press one button to win that's just laziness.

ah..i see now. if i change my loadout, that's going to magically improve my reflexes and make my eyesight better, let me jump right on that. while i'm at it, i'll try and get the word out to the medical community about this miracle cure. yes there is sarcasm there because i'm tired of all these people saying "you just aren't trying hard enough, quit being lazy" people...quit thinking that just because you can do it, every body can do it. that's not true. never has been and never will be.

[Berserkerkitten]

Yes, we get it, you're bad at Warframe. So what do you propose? You say you don't want the game to get easier, but at the same time you don't want people to ask for nerfs, when certain abilities wipe out entire spawns at the push of a button. Because your eyesight is bad. I don't see how this is any less selfish than anybody else.

EDIT: And before this whole discussion just continues to go endlessly in circles - is it even necessary? Don't we have a pretty decent middle ground right now? There are constant alerts going on, tons of simple, easy to play missions, as well has daily high-level sorties with all sorts of restrictions and added difficulty. Isn't there content to satisfy both the casual and the hardcore and anything in between? You say you're not asking for the game to get any easier. Last time I checked, the forums weren't exactly flooded with people telling DE to make Warframe super difficult, either.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Berserkerkitten

[Zarozian]

He wants to be like Saitama. An insult to all the heroes.

 

If you are able to take out large crowds of tough enemies with no effort at all then you are technically an insult to the veteran and skilled players who have earned and grown their power through playing the game. But unlike Saitama he understands and respects all the other heroes and he takes the blame and he accepts the nerfs. A true hero to the heroes. = 3=

[puppycorpse]

59 minutes ago, Magicfingers said:

ah..i see now. if i change my loadout, that's going to magically improve my reflexes and make my eyesight better, let me jump right on that. while i'm at it, i'll try and get the word out to the medical community about this miracle cure. yes there is sarcasm there because i'm tired of all these people saying "you just aren't trying hard enough, quit being lazy" people...quit thinking that just because you can do it, every body can do it. that's not true. never has been and never will be.

if it bothers you that much you could always switch to another game. no one is telling you to play warframe.  also people don't need to sympathize for lazy people looking for excuses to get what they want.  its not a way of thinking its a fact.  if you don't want to put in the work don't play the game.  theirs no simpler way to put it. if that bothers you i dont know what else to tell you. no one has to feel sorry for you or conform to your way of thinking.  you have no sympathy from me. i practiced got good and i help others who say the same get better. if they can you can to.

Edited July 2, 2016 by puppycorpse

[puppycorpse]

On 6/30/2016 at 2:21 AM, Teloch said:

You, sir, are impeccably cruel in a refined way. I applause.

Alas, I'll be rude.

This world is made so that everyone thinks of their own amusement and comfort, and not about others. If you need "crutches" to feel equal with others - you're just lying to yourself. If others want the game balanced, they will never care about the group that vitally needs broken gear, and will continue to yell "nerf!" or "balance!" object or mechanic X. 

No one will ever care about little people. Deal with it

PS: and read Nietzsche

pretty much

[Axacution]

All right this argument really pisses me off. For starters, we were all there. I remember being an MR1 on my first day and a stalker attacked my squad mate who was MR10. I had no idea what to do as he fought this mass of black smoke i couldn't comprehend. So I looked it up, got better gear, and i played the game until i could do what he did. I didn't complain on the forums that people were too overpowered. If i wanted to play alone and actually get good, i played solo or on invite only to play with my other low level friends. Second, weapons are weapons. Everyone is given the exact same weapons and stats on them. What matters is how players use them. No, i could not do as well with a level 5 Serration compared to you with a level 10. Its basic knowledge. You learn what types of damage do better against which factions and you build your weapons based on that fact. You don't complain that people are doing better than you because you decided to play in public. All that does is ask to be carried by a higher leveled player who knows what they're doing and has the weapons to do so quickly, and efficiently. If you want to get better at the game, do some research. Warframe Wiki is a great source to actually learn about the game and its mechanics. I spent 4 weeks properly building my Frost so i didn't go down every minute in high level survival missions and have to be carried by my team. And by the end of that 4 weeks i was able to solo most missions in the game. I also built my Ember like this. Did research on her strengths and weaknesses, and i used them to my advantage. I have frames I don't use, such as Nyx, because they do not fit my style of running in, tanking damage, and then obliterating everything as i laugh at my screen. So I found frames that fit that style and i use them. I didnt complain the frame wasnt fit to my play style because i knew certain frames fit certain niches and those niches werent my own. The fact that you feel entitled to complain on the forums for being such a low level compared to other players and your gear showing that as well, means you need to research, farm, and mod. Don't sit around waiting for the Devs to cater to your every whim. Look at the frames, learn the frames, and build the frames based on your play style and how you feel comfortable. This game was never about low level players being equal to max ranked, MR21 players. It was about learning, building, and adapting to the changes made within the game. If you don't like that aspect, then this game isnt for you

[WARLOCKE]

6 hours ago, Magicfingers said:

ok, this thread seems to have gotten off track. everyone seems to think i'm asking for a change, asking to make the game easier which is not what my post was about. what my post was about was taking into consideration the people that don't have the skill set or reflexes or the eyes of an eagle like top notch players do when you start demanding nerfs on things. think about us before you ask. i know i'm can't be the only one that has problems sometimes with the way game play is. if you think the game is too easy that's great...i'm happy for you. just please think about us players who can't be as good as you no matter what we do or how hard we try.

Im sorry if it came off as a direct attack on you or a bit of snarky quips. I can and do come off as rude. Sometimes im 100% ok with that but this time im not. I feel for you in a sense. There was a time in warframe I felt that the game was just a bit to hard. But in fairness thats when the game played like a survival horror and you had to cling onto every bullet. But you as a player will adapt if you love the game as I do. 

What im trying to say is that there are powers and abilities that have to be nerfed regardless of player skill/gear. Because in the end the devs have to expect you will at some point take advantage of these things to trivialize content. Im not some top level player skill wise. Im actually an older gamer at 39 (shocking that I can be so immature at times) whose twitch reflexs are on a steady decline. Im roughly half the gamer skill wise as I was in my twenties during the unreal Tournament days of jumping head shots and such. And I figure by the time im 60 ill be even slower. 

Despite all of this I do not expect any of what I told you to be factored into any game im playing. I expect the game will be balanced regardless of it. At some point you are going to find your groove. I promise you, there is nothing that you cannot surpass currently in this game. I regularly solo t3 sorties. It really isnt that hard when you play to your strengths. For instance, I am not a twitch hero. My aim is mediocre at best and my twitch is in wane. So instead I play to my positives. I pick the right frame with the right load out for the job. You to in time will reach this point.

Until then you just need to roll with the punchs and work on your game and just have fun. If you need to play lower end content for now there is zero shame in that. There is also a metric ton of it. So, to end this boring monologue ill state this. It gets better, focus on enjoying what you can do instead of what you cant.

[WARLOCKE]

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

@WARLOCKE,

I hear ya...

My point is that I see valid points in both assertions and don't see either side is definitively right.

Op's side is asking for consideration.

 Your side is asking for consideration.

 Both sides are right to ask.

...There's no functional difference between them.

The conclusion that I see very few people coming to is that it's going to take more than just nerfs to fix the problem. One would think after three years of successive nerfs people would arrive at that conclusion but... Nope.

One side wants to knock the crutches out from under the Crutch Brigade™.

The other side wants the Nerf Herders™ to hush. 

In the process, everybody winds up defining everybody else's play experience for them.

Missions in this game typically aren't really competitive after MR 8 or so... Yet the forum is always more full of "Nerf this", than it is "Difficulty Sliders Now".

Missions in this game are co-op by design but competitive in nature... This automatically encourages bad behavior.

Equipment in this game doesn't have parity and isn't comparably balanced against all other equipment types... Yet players are on the "Nerf This" thing instead of asking to have meaningful changes to enemy's DR system added.

The grind is so pervasive it encourages a meta mentality... All the while, what should be fun has become a job to many and the sniping at each continue.

Nerfs, alone, ain't gonna fix the problems in this game. Until we can all get to a point where we can agree on this, the witch hunt will continue.

Im actually all for various difficulty settings. But you cannot defend stuff like bless and prism or the tonkor or Simulor. All of those things are bad game design and toxic. It kills diversity and it makes balancing the game for those without this level of gak impossible. What challenge can you provide a group that can CC entire rooms with little more than a press of a button. Why should anyone pick anything other than a tonkor or simulor? These things are far beyond balanced and need to be fixed before the devs can provide interesting and challenging game play to anyone. Its not about wanting to deprive others. its the opposite.

Its that there are a large portion of the community who will fight tooth and nail to prevent any sort of balanced game play. Those are the members of the crutch brigade ( If I knew that phrase was going to catch on how it did I probably would not have made it.). What I and others want is a balanced game full of choices. Its just that some people cant comprehend that Nightmare LoS isnt supposed to be farmable with a PuG.

[WARLOCKE]

2 hours ago, Berserkerkitten said:

Yes, we get it, you're bad at Warframe. So what do you propose? You say you don't want the game to get easier, but at the same time you don't want people to ask for nerfs, when certain abilities wipe out entire spawns at the push of a button. Because your eyesight is bad. I don't see how this is any less selfish than anybody else.

EDIT: And before this whole discussion just continues to go endlessly in circles - is it even necessary? Don't we have a pretty decent middle ground right now? There are constant alerts going on, tons of simple, easy to play missions, as well has daily high-level sorties with all sorts of restrictions and added difficulty. Isn't there content to satisfy both the casual and the hardcore and anything in between? You say you're not asking for the game to get any easier. Last time I checked, the forums weren't exactly flooded with people telling DE to make Warframe super difficult, either.

I dont think there is enough content for higher tier players. That is for absolute sure, If there was you probably wouldnt see me posting on these forums: :P.

[-Sandman]

On 6/30/2016 at 1:43 AM, Tzolkat said:

I think the OP's observation is perfectly valid. It seems like a lot of the nerfs, especially recently, shift the frame's stats such that they're balanced around specific, game-breaking builds that not everyone uses or even wants to use, to the detriment of more rounded builds. And that is to say nothing of novice players who haven't yet maxed out every mod they use, and most likely don't even have that many mods.

I also notice that the frames getting the nerfs most often are ones that are most friendly to the novice players. Meanwhile, several that really do qualify as 'mash one button and nuke everything' go for the most part untouched. Please for the love of Teshin DE, balance the game around the average player, not just the desires of a few overly vocal, self-interested 'veterans'.

In short, I am sick of soloing this game. Player retention is through the floor and the difficulty bias towards veterans with lots of mods is definitely not helping.

Some people really just don't get that. Hence the sodium levels in here.

[SilvaDreams]

I think we can essentially boil this whole thing down to.

"Learn your own limits and play within them, but don't complain the game developers need to make things easier for you."

[Tymerc]

On 6/30/2016 at 1:15 AM, K0bra said:

Yeah its sad that people these days cant take weaker or not so good people in consideration.

I purposely walk around with the G3's bolt on my Frost Prime that I play almost exclusively to make it more fair for the Grineer and those who I team up with.

Funny enough I did yesterday's sortie with it on while forgetting I had it and still preformed well. 

Edit: Meant to expand on my G3 bolt usage by also saying that I am a fan of self-imposed challenges. I do not really benefit while having it attached to my Warframe, but if it makes missions more challenging then great. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tymerc

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

Im actually all for various difficulty settings. But you cannot defend stuff like bless and prism or the tonkor or Simulor. All of those things are bad game design and toxic. It kills diversity and it makes balancing the game for those without this level of gak impossible. What challenge can you provide a group that can CC entire rooms with little more than a press of a button. Why should anyone pick anything other than a tonkor or simulor? These things are far beyond balanced and need to be fixed before the devs can provide interesting and challenging game play to anyone. Its not about wanting to deprive others. its the opposite.

I haven't attempted to defend anything at this point. I've merely noted that both arguments have a degree of merit and that I see no difference between your stances. I don't entirely agree with either per se.

Both sides are guilty of encouraging DE to do stuff that ruined items.

For the rest of it, I can only reasonably presume that the things you call bad/toxic game design are things developed by a game designer being derided by someone who probably isn't.

When I do see players using those weapons, I think of them as generally lacking in skill or just plain chasing the orange for self gratification. 

Here's my stance on all that... I don't care.

• I don't care because I don't use them.
• I don't care because I don't typically let myself into groups with folks who do use them.
• I don't care how other players spend their time amusing themselves in game... I care about my own fun.
• I don't pretend to know balance empirically because I am not a game designer.

   But here's the thing, If the changes you mention are evidence of your definition of balanced, then this game isn't balanced at it's core....And it never has been.

First frame... Second skill.

DMG 3.0 won't fix it all. 

Heck... DMG 9.0 won't fix it all.

What you and others like you are dealing with is a fundamental disconnect between the game you want and the game you have.

...They aren't the same.

4 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

Its that there are a large portion of the community who will fight tooth and nail to prevent any sort of balanced game play. Those are the members of the crutch brigade ( If I knew that phrase was going to catch on how it did I probably would not have made it.). What I and others want is a balanced game full of choices. Its just that some people cant comprehend that Nightmare LoS isnt supposed to be farmable with a PuG.

Or perhaps they are fighting to preserve the version of gameplay that presently exists versus what another player thinks it should be?... FWIW, I didn't use that little term accidentally (you're welcome).

Likewise, why do you care if someone else farms a Nightmare raid with a pug? How does that effect you personally?  If you aren't doing it, why do you care?

Does it give them an advantage somehow?

To me, thinking like that reminds me of Mrs. Kravitz from Bewitched (your probably old enough to get that reference).

I would rather see DE develop modes, assets, and mechanics that make the current issues irrelevant than I would see them re-jigger numbers for a 3rd time.

Your comments would suggest that your mileage varies to some degree in this respect.

That's cool...

Have a party asking DE to "nerf all de tings" or whatever.  Best of luck to ya.

 

 

[Berserkerkitten]

8 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

I dont think there is enough content for higher tier players. That is for absolute sure, If there was you probably wouldnt see me posting on these forums: :P.

Fair enough. Right now there are sorties, which have hugely disappointing rewards. And raids, which.... yeah. I'm all for more challenging stuff. But it also won't hurt me if the random alerts and lowbie stuff remains as easy as it is right now, I suppose. I just feel that both sides of the argument are overreacting a bit, like one is trying to take something away from the other. Everyone keeps saying they don't want the entire game to be super easy or super difficult. And last time I checked, nobody ever literally said "nerf everything", either. Some of us just don't like to see abilities that murder all the things with the push of a single button, that's all.

[AVENTUS]

On 6/29/2016 at 7:21 PM, Senpai-Pie said:

Why wouldn't we tell you to "git gud" when that's literally what your whole problem is?

I'm not going to ignore game balance just because a few people aren't able to survive. It's called progression in games. If you've played that long and have such problems then you either don't strive to get better or are just bad. Why should people who are good handicap themselves for you? It's not their problem, it is your own.

This lmao, this game gives everyone the fair chance at being just as good as the next player.  Playing the game for a long time and building up your profile with everything rewards you with being stronger in the game.  Plus, affinity is shared to an extent and most mission rewards are awarded to all players.

[AsianLyf]

Shouldn't we be asking how someone can be that bad at warframe with that many hours instead?

[Berserkerkitten]

Why? He already said he lacks reflexes and good eyesight, why rub salt in the wound? The divisive question is whether Warframe should be so easy that people who suck at Warframe can enjoy it.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Right now to me the best course of action is implementing how the Earth Node works with the Moon Tilesets across the star chart. So new players farm and play on earth and vets are playing on the Moon. I'd only change one thing, vets can't go back to the earth tilesets once they complete the second dream, unless it's by invite or solo for alert ,event, and story/quest modes. Other than those vets do not need to mix with new players in PUGs on Earth when the Moon provides better challenges, drop rates, and stronger boss encounters.

I think the rework mentality of having to press 1, 3, and 4 to get one kill or utilize an alt for CC to save someone is just counterintuitive to how fast this game can be, and how the enemy scaling can factor into insta death and player frustrations, especially when playing to help others who have been downed. Does that mean Ash's blade storms shouldn't be touched or Mesa's peacemaker nerfed, no those powers blanket kill and stifle other players from enjoying the game by being relegated to the bench.

That just means they need to really re-think powers in general. Because right now you need only two that are consistent. Something to benefit the player like Inaros's devour refilling health to Loki's invisibility to race past or engage enemy, and secondly something to stun lock a room to rescue a downed player, or escape or kill your way out of a bad situation. 

How that effects the team needs to be just as thoughtfully designed as in how it effects a solo player from starter to vet ranging from Mecury to a Nightmare Trial. And with so many frames throwing everything out of whack, it just seems they should start considering ratings and requirement walls, or just throw powers out in general and replace them with passives and perks. Because that seems to be the course some seem to be pushing us towards every time a power is introduced, called op, nerfed, re-worked, and then just placed on a shelf to collect dust, while they move onto a meta that works against the enemy scaling they can utilize with ease in another frame or weapon. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Av3rage]

I agree with the op saying think about it first b4 you ask for a nerf or whatever it is, but sad to say its not gonna happen. Some people that call for nerf well they do have a valid reason and for the rest they just say whatever so they can validate their existance. I dont really get it when people ask for nerf when it is against NPCs. They must be in a NPC rights organization group. I understand asking for a challenge cause there is really no game mode in here that you can just go in and fight lvl 100 enemies. I mean is you can fight em like in sorties, but still you have to do 2 missions before that. In defense and survival you still have to wait for them to scale up in order to have a challenge. In that i think they have to give an instant access to those sort of enemies.

Tonkor being OP? LOL! a 2 shot weapon that when you miss you still have to wait for reload, but if you connect well it kills a lot, well guess what so does other weapons do that. I say Tonkor is in a safe spot or needs upgrade like more bullets or proximity detonation.  

ASH, oh man I hate it that they are already looking at it, I do agree its a lazy thing but there is nothing for ash without it, he will just die. No defense no other viable utility to defend. He just got bladestorm. I love ash but I dont really use him that much since I use other frames more. The only problem that i have when one of my party members is using ash is he doesnt kill fast enough. My synoid simulor can kill a lot faster than him, he just got the range. I love it when others kill faster than me, I get lots of affinity for that also I can just run around chill let em do the work.

As far as getting better.. just upgrade mods and that is it. Do whatever it is to get there. Farm r5 cores or farm stuff and sell it for plat then buy maxed versions. If you have problems with buying with plat well thats a mental issue. Theres already a way on getting plat without spending real money. I do spend real money, heck I spend more money in here than other games and this is free to play, its nice to support them. As far as being the not skilled, I am one of those too, my reflexes are slow as f too.. can't parkour for s**t but most of the times I get more kills or I still do more than the others, mission results tell me that, and I hate it.  I agree think about it first.