People saying Conclave is too fast, do they play other arena shooter?

[bernad2218]

Ok so i've spent quite some time in Conclave and yknow, hitting people bulletjumping and stuff aren't really a matter for me, everything's fine except those net stuff.

And then i try to play Unreal Tournament and oooooooo boi is that game fast. I can hardly keep up with the movement but same like my early day of Conclave, it was a helluva fun.

Heck, i even think maybe conclave could use some speed up (like +mobility or +sprint powerups idk) but maybe thats just me.

 

Why people complain of it being too fast though? Is it because corpus, grineer and other AI moves like turtles so they can't bear with tennos? I mean, UT was like lightning fast and hard but the playerbase and community loves it, and conclave is like the easier and slower UT but the playerbase somehow despise it saying its too hard.

Or is it because UT was released in 90s when gamers test themselves with hard games and Conclave is released in 2015 2016 when everyone wants to be babysit, get kills spoon fed to their mouth and afraid of challenge?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I dont even need to respond to this. Anyone who has played either game can tell the difference between a well done arena shooter and a poorly made arena shooter.

[bernad2218]

3 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

I dont even need to respond to this. Anyone who has played either game can tell the difference between a well done arena shooter and a poorly made arena shooter.

Sorry but i think i missed your point here.

Care to elaborate?

[TwelfthAngel]

3 hours ago, bernad2218 said:

Sorry but i think i missed your point here.

Care to elaborate?

Which is better?

A pvp game mode in a game the devs said they wouldn't focus on pvp.

Or a game dedicated to the pvp experience.

Just think about it a little bit.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

5 minutes ago, bernad2218 said:

Sorry but i think i missed your point here.

Care to elaborate?

Play UT or DOOM or QUAKE and go back to ChallengeClave

The speed and movement are in different leagues of each other and the game play is actually functional and balanced in UT / Doom / Quake and is in relation to the movement. They are dramatically different games that is why they are more successful than conclave.

You right now have DOOM TTK in a game where people fly at the speed of light and are impossible to hit. The reason why those games are  "fast" and can maintain a high ttk is because the players cant fly across the map, and instantaneously change their direction in the press of a button. Making the game fun

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[FLSH_BNG]

The lack of dedicated servers for pvp modes means that at any given time, you will rarely have a decent enough connection to actually play, and will be forced to cheese the game and its as of yet undiscovered exploits in order to win. And that's not fun.

DE has put all of their effort into "balancing" conclave rather than actually fixing the issue that makes the mode unplayable to begin with.

I've found the very few latency free matches I've had to be somewhat enjoyable, but they were so few and far between that I've had to shun all pvp on Warframe because it's just not enjoyable to not have your abilities do anything, it's not fun to have your accurate gunfire count as a miss because latency decided that you fired too late or too soon.

The gameplay is fine, but the system it uses needs work and it hasn't gotten it in all the time that it's been present.

Edited July 2, 2016 by FLSH_BNG

[Tails-san]

2 minutes ago, bernad2218 said:

Sorry but i think i missed your point here.

Care to elaborate?

I believe his point is that Arena Shooters like Unreal Tournament are well designed with their fast movement systems in mind. Warframe's conclave, not so much.

Also, while the arena shooters movement is fast, I find it's a lot more consistent and easier to manage than Warframe's.

Oh, and the latency issues are compounded by the high movement speeds, making even slight lag rather noticeable.

[VisionAndVoice]

4 minutes ago, Tails-san said:

I believe his point is that Arena Shooters like Unreal Tournament are well designed with their fast movement systems in mind. Warframe's conclave, not so much.

Uh, his point is him adressing (complaining about?) other people's complains that the Conclave is too fast-paced. It's not.

Conclave may have problems, but being too fast is not it.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

13 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Uh, his point is him adressing (complaining about?) other people's complains that the Conclave is too fast-paced. It's not.

Conclave may have problems, but being too fast is not it.

precisely, its the fact that it was so poorly balanced around the movement that makes the mode unplayable.

[VisionAndVoice]

11 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

precisely, its the fact that it was so poorly balanced around the movement that makes the mode unplayable.

I kinda can't see what your point is. Should it be faster? Or are you just generally angry about Conclave?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, VisionAndVoice said:

I kinda can't see what your point is. Should it be faster? Or are you just generally angry about Conclave?

Im agreeing with you. The speed is not the problem with warframe conclave. But rather the method/route they took in balancing the rest of the game mode around the speed.

[VisionAndVoice]

4 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

But rather the method/route they took in balancing the rest of the game mode around the speed.

Elaborate on this one a little bit, please. You're saying that devs balance Conclave around the fact that frames have so many mobility options, and... no, I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, VisionAndVoice said:

Elaborate on this one a little bit, please. You're saying that devs balance Conclave around the fact that frames have so many mobility options, and... no, I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

On a basic level I feel that the game should have much faster kill times, considering how fast paced the game is. So that life duration depends completely on movement and not taking hits. So 1 hit snipers, daikyus, fast killing autos ETC.

Options don't necessarily make a good game. PvP is an example of that, just because theres 60 guns and 40 mods does not give the gameplay more depth. To quote from a reddit user who put this so perfectly:

"I didn't enjoy the old Conclave. The lobby nodes that played on that basic Corpus TDM map or on Dark Sector Conflicts. There was no thought into balance, since it was a case of 'anything goes' and some weapons were largely popular over others.

Then... they started fresh. I was excited, because the limit to just a few Warframes and weapons meant that balance tweaks would be simple and make for a very calculated, flat playing field. I didn't mind that some people couldn't play with their 'favourite weapons,' because Mk1-Weapons are purchasable with credits and the warframe selection wasn't too hard to get. Sure there were issues, like Volt taking a large dominance... and coptering... and repeated knockdowns... but they were either fixed or balanced out with time. DE was putting some nice focus to this, slow and steady, without making things complex. Just base frames, base weapons, and tweaked stats for each. I didn't particularly agree with allowing mods though, even if they were limited to ones like shield recharge and handspring (which became necessary with the knockdown spam).

But then, as they introduced more and more weapons, more and more warframes into the mix, added a plethora of unique mods for weapons and warframes, some of which are necessary in the sense of 'if you don't have it and they do, they have an immediate advantage regardless of skill,' then I started to lose interest again. Yes it's still largely skill based, and no it's nowhere near as unbalanced as the first conclave which used PvE stats, but now it's just become just as convoluted all over again with equipment that's optimal (not stronger, just optimal).

Don't get me wrong, gameplay depth is important... But it doesn't feel like all this convolution and extreme excess of options is depth to me. It just feels like mass confusion. Combine that with connection issues (no, not disconnects or extreme lag, just lack of a smooth perfect environment) and I'm lucky to hit bodyshots with how much people flip around with parkour and the animations associated with them. Yes it's skill based, I understand that, but without using a weapon to spray and cheese past this, it feels luck based sometimes.

So yeah, tl;dr, S#&$ IS balanced, even though projectile speed and other stuff isn't displayed there. The problem isn't balance, it's just convolution. Like... why even have those very minor differences?"

Personally: TL;DR

I think the game needs to be simpler, I think that all players need to be equal. The weapons allowed should be accessible by everyone (example when PvP first came out with only Credit purchasable weapons). A game where its complexity derives from the movement and not what class you are using.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Back in the day it was Quake Arena and Descent. Both were fast and fun. Quake Arena felt like Rollerball with Capture the flag in this one space map. Hit jump pads fly through a portal, drift a little to land on another pad using a rocket jump so you can kill that fragging piece of garbage sniping from the floating top platform, all within an instant of spawning in.

Then Descent was pull a roll to hug the roof and let a noob streak past you and then light him up as you zero g into the next room to collect a invisibility and mega missile. Then run for some big open space and keep to the shadows and watch your mini map for your buddy hunting you down. 

Since Halo it's been soooooo slow and soooo serious while carrying some sorta of e-peen Pokemon card on your PVP career backs. How do you guys even enjoy that scrutiny and guys complaining about everything right down to players running away. Duh, of course they're going to run away to avoid losing. That's a guy looking to survive in order to give you a challenge by killing you elsewhere. 

My time is done with PVP. Moved on. The only game since Quake Arena that ever made me sit up and smile in PVP was "Fall of Cybertron." That Science Class was just awesome fun. I was looking forward to Strike Vector due to speed and it's arena flight mode hitting consoles, but it seems delayed as in never happening. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I'm playing (or- I'm the only one I harldy See playing with) Banshee and Boar prime, paired with despair and tipedo as melee.

 

I fly across the map, manage the speed and poor movement (and Bad latency... that one Hits you the hardest) with the spread of the Shotgun to usually Finish in melee range with the high range of the tipedo, if I not just knock them over beforehand, Snipe them with despair or just Finish them with my ult.

 

Hardly what one would consider the "ideal Setup" for conclave, still VERY effecive. The ideal is just frickin overshadowed by the overwhelming unbalance in this game mode... yeah ash was strong but as some ults still hit lethal, is there any point playing with ash anymore? Is inaros Kit conclave friendly, given the low Heath drain on his first and the waste of energy Sand Tomb is? Was mags magnetice even addet to conclave yet?

Pvp in its current state is definitly better then it was in its early stage but DE is still FAR from propper Balance. This Balance, this kinda Arsenal for EVERY FRAME, the difference full-automatic weapons have over semi automatic onces, dps AND damage wise in pve but also balanced down to a weaker FINAL STAGE is what conclave is still missing to this day.

 

It's not only that mk1 weapons are easy to get, they are often MUCH STRONGER then others due to a big difference in damage AND dps they have due to slightly lower Speed. The mk1 braton is Straight STRONGER Then the regular one and much Stronger then lets say a dex sibaris or tonkor, in each aspect. This. Is. Unbalanced.

Edited July 3, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Razanzel]

Warframe is much faster than Quake Arena. I'm usualy good in FPS/TPS games but I honestly Warframe doesn't please me as it is right now. Even the pros have problems aiming at people. You either have some super lucky kills while jumping around being an impossible target, or get one shot randomly. This is not fun imho.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

1 hour ago, Razanzel said:

Warframe is much faster than Quake Arena. I'm usualy good in FPS/TPS games but I honestly Warframe doesn't please me as it is right now. Even the pros have problems aiming at people. You either have some super lucky kills while jumping around being an impossible target, or get one shot randomly. This is not fun imho.

[Razanzel]

DE made a mode where we cannot use any weapons or skills (Lunaro), and weapons and skills are a huge part of Warframe. I don't see why they wouldn't make a fun mode for PvP where we cannot bullet-jump and move fast as lightning, so it can basicly be playable as a PvP shooter. I say this because some people say : Movement is so important in Warframe....   So is weapons and skills and customization and alerts and bla bla bla etc.

It's a mode idea that would make PvP DM/TDM enjoyable. I made a post about this idea in the same thread section. There could be both modes, one where you can jump and move at lightspeed like it is right now, and one mode where you cannot. I guarantee this new mode would attract lots of people.

The game would just please more people this way imo, PvE players would still enjoy the game the same way they do, and PvP players would enjoy pvp, but still have to go through PvE to unlock weapons, frames etc. It just makes sense imo.

[MaximusBlastalot]

The main problem with warframe mobility, whether we are talking about acceleration or "too much mobility" is the the air rolling.

The difference between warframe and arena shooters(and Im going to include similar game play like tribes or tf2) as a whole is theres no mobility/speed ratio.

To elaborate any good "arena shooter ( some of these arent true arena shooters nor is this game as they lack power ups/map play) mobility system will have two distinct phases and speed will have a cost attached to it.

The "speed" phase and a "control" phase if you will.In quake you strafe jump for speed but when you want to dodge (once one person is stopped or caught usually )you juke or do non consecutive jumps to the side, tribes skiing vs dueling on hill tops, ut has an almost "turn based" nature to it as once you "dodge" your largely "locked into place" etc.

The biggest symptom of the impact lacking this kinda of dynamic has on gameplay is the fact that staying in the air for prolonged periods isn't practical a insta death( beyond the low ttk with snipers/autos/burst rifles already).In any of these other games long jumps in the air are a deaths sentence because it makes you predictable.Even tribes moment and energy limits greatly limit the viability of such things outside of a very few circumstances.

Secondly all of these systems require you to "earn speed" either thru ramping up thru a system such a strafe jumping/skiing or thru self dmg thru rocket jumping.Even Ut not only has jumping thru self dmg but the dodge has a cost because a miss timed dodge makes you extremely predictable becus of how it limits you agility.

Again this is not the case here.This is the reason why parkour is never used despite the fact you can achieve speed this way and its because you can tumble roll thru the air after a bullete jump and be twice as effective with a quarter of the effort and practical no experience.Its why these other games have massively indepth movement systems that players can constantly refine yet here once you learn to tumble roll after a bullete jump or aim glyde before jumping off things you have learned 99% of what you need to know to be effective with movement .Aim glide exacerbates this thought its not an issue in of itself.

This problem also extends into pve encounters and traps as it severly limits what can be threating other then aimboting tank and spank ai that you are required to stick near due to objectives and makes all of the traps completely pointless.Even if you miss time it you can self correct to a large extent the only timing aspect is there's a slight delay( and I mean fractions of a second) where you cant attack thought this is only meaningful in an extremely narrow set of close range situations solely in pvp ( and then usually only if a mobility melee is involved).

Also the ttk is absurdly low for any of the "meta" weapons and most arena shooters have map play thru power ups or in the arena-like category     (of things like tf2 or tribes) objectives like points to capture and flags ( and how ctf is done here is a whole thread in of itself).

The guns balance( seem to be balanced around a more measured style of gameplay (that inexperienced players use in pve currently but was more prevalent befor bullete jumping) thus the love for the old conclave ( which while fast didn't have the acceleration agility issues we now have) this also impacts other things like range.

Its actually even easier to see with melee which is 90% ground based.Melee non viability inter laps here thought it has other issues most caused by various silly nerfs such as  the remove of slide stagger and thus any air potential melee had or real viability beyond oneshots or already broken mobility weapons like anku).

 

TLDR:

As long as you can roll in the air (which is the main issue mobility wise) and ttk is so low the game will optimal about air rolling with snipers.It is not a happy accident like skiing in tribes or starfe jumping in quake it has 0 depth to it ( unlike sliding/parkour).

In short it (pvp) is for all intents and purposes insta gib just without the fun. Its not faster (or harder to aim) then quake or tribes its less predictable, balanced and consistent ( hitbox/hit reg).

Edited July 13, 2016 by MaximusBlastalot

[bernad2218]

i actually made this to people who complain conclave is too fast, yes they exist and this dude here bernad2218 knows that its not the problem

ended up of people addressing the real problems of conclave to this thread

ok guys

[nicklam445]

i hate conclave because i can't keep up with them, and i always lose because i lack firepower and mobilty in conclave, also, i don't play arena shooter, i do play different game, here a problem: when your foe are strafing too fast, your shots likely MISS, then they take you down with melee, you are dodging, but too slow, then you get killed.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 2:50 PM, Razanzel said:

Warframe is much faster than Quake Arena. I'm usualy good in FPS/TPS games but I honestly Warframe doesn't please me as it is right now. Even the pros have problems aiming at people. You either have some super lucky kills while jumping around being an impossible target, or get one shot randomly. This is not fun imho.

If it were pure luck as you seem to imply then why do some of these 'pros' you mentioned have such better scores at EOM then the other players? Luck doesn't just favor one player all the time. Clearly some people are better than others which automatically implies there are many other factors than this 'luck' you speak of.