[spoiler] I don't know if I can trust Lotus

[Teloch]

11 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Good and bad are all relative, the Lotus accepts the role of both hero and villain to maintain a balance. We take no one side so nether corpus nor grineer have the power to dominate, we aren't the good guys nor are we the bad guys.

But you can think of yourself as either and both.

 

Considering the fact we're more objects of manipulation than subjects with their own will, we aren't guys at all.

Also, it's "balance" is a falsification.

[SilvaDreams]

14 minutes ago, Teloch said:

*grins devilishly* You, my naive friend, should recollect Ordises memory fragments. It would give you a good reason to change your views on cephalons nature.

Bit of spoiler territory there but yes it finally explains the why and how the Jordus golem exists.

[Teloch]

12 minutes ago, DefekteDelfin said:

The devs themselves have said the Lotus is good and not a secret sleeper agent or bad guy. Her story arc is already over and at this point, Teshin is less trustworthy than the Lotus because of the recent events.

If you played second dream and payed attention, you would know why she saved us and the Orokin aren't a magnificant civilization that the Tenno killed for no reason. The Stalker seeks vengeance for the Orokin and not because he wants to "free" us from the Lotus.

Go read up on the lore before you start spreading theories like this again. There is no evidence for any of your claims.

 

The question of morale is the most subjective thing in the universe. People tend to have different views on what is right and what is wrong.

20 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Good and bad are all relative, the Lotus accepts the role of both hero and villain to maintain a balance. We take no one side so nether corpus nor grineer have the power to dominate, we aren't the good guys nor are we the bad guys.

But you can think of yourself as either and both.

 

^ That guy has a point, and I admit that even though he is a lotus-head

And as for the orokin, the order shouldn't necessary be humane, equal, and benevolent. It just has to be present.

Lotus and teeno ruined the established order, caused the havoc, threw the human civilization to the brinc of extinction, and offered NO ORDER AT ALL. 

Is the cruel order worse than the pure anarchy? Everyone has their own answer to this question. Means we're simply in the opposite trenches.

 

 

[WhiteDagger]

27 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because there would've been no need to "maintain balance" lest this terraforming AI never made it to the Origin system?

Because it acts as a machiavellian?

Because of it's "mothery instincts" which resulted in our ignorance, we sacrificed numerous civilians for the sake of interchangeable tools during the Gravidus?

Because that AI is simply unable to understand the ethics of living beings?

Because that AI is unfamiliar with the concept of responsibility?

I hope you are aware that the Orokin created the Sentients because they lived such pompous life the origin system vas unable to sustain them so they created the Sentients sent them to Tau, oh and BTW to their death since the void is poisonous to them, i dont fault them for coming back for revenge what the Orokin did was a pretty d*ck move.

Please do tell me a non Machiavellyian way to stop two superpovers from gaining total dominance and create a second orokin empire.

You seriously believe Gravidus would lasted shorter time and less casualities if we stayed out? No if anithing it would have lasted longer and would be so much worse for the civilians.

They are called SENTIENTS im pretty sure they can grasp those concepts, othervise the void trap wouldn't have pissed them up so much.

[DefekteDelfin]

Oh, the Orokin weren't as innocent as you made them out to be. 

The Synthesis Entries, wiki descriptions and much more show that the Orokin had fallen because of the Sentients and the Tenno only struck the last blow to destroy the empire after the Sentients started their feint.

The Orokin had also

-Experimented on and kidnapped many children to create the Tenno

-Kill many innocents like Margulis and the Archimedian who proposed the crewman project

-Created the Grineer that were used as mindless slaves and many other sub-races like Lorists.

-Created the Sentients which eventually killed them.

The Tenno aren't returning to kill the rest of humanity. The rest of normal humanity lives in colonies and settlements while the Tenno stop the Corpus and Grineer from taking over the system. The corpus will exploit the rest of humanity while the Grineer enslave them. Sounds good to you?

In addition, the Gravidus dilemnia was up to the players and this is a game. They picked the weapons because saving unseen civillians that have virtually no result except for worse weapons is something you won't do.

Its a game and its been established that the Lotus and Tenno aren't evil. You can argue about it for a whole week but the end result is the same. Devs said the Tenno and Lotus are good guys in this game.

You seem to have pretty warped views about this situation. It isn't "Lotushead vs smart ole you" its "Players vs you". Its already established that the Lotus is Good. Lets not argue about what is good in a GAME FORUM.

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by DefekteDelfin
Grammar mistakes

[Teloch]

7 minutes ago, WhiteDagger said:

I hope you are aware that the Orokin created the Sentients because they lived such pompous life the origin system vas unable to sustain them so they created the Sentients sent them to Tau, oh and BTW to their death since the void is poisonous to them, i dont fault them for coming back for revenge what the Orokin did was a pretty d*ck move.

Please do tell me a non Machiavellyian way to stop two superpovers from gaining total dominance and create a second orokin empire.

You seriously believe Gravidus would lasted shorter time and less casualities if we stayed out? No if anithing it would have lasted longer and would be so much worse for the civilians.

They are called SENTIENTS im pretty sure they can grasp those concepts, othervise the void trap wouldn't have pissed them up so much.

 

So you justify the death of an entire civilization should their leaders be d*ckheads in your morale coordinates? Dude, are you with the veil?

Why should it prevent the natural state of things (the struggle for power) and so the system progress? And, answering your question, there is a simple, non-machiavellian way to prevent new civilizations from happening: to wipe the whole life.

I belive that the teeno should've supported corpus and saved civilian lives, not their own meat golems that can be easily 3D-printed

What is made artificially can't trully be alive.

[Samuel_sfx]

well...i do trust sexy ladies...or don't I?

[NinthAria]

55 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Yeah, why should anyone use their own head and develop critical thinking when there are those comfortable "good guys" and "bad guys" stickers, right?

It's less about good and bad and more about trust. DE said she's the "straight man" of Warframe, meaning you can usually count on what she says being true. Which, so far, holds up pretty well: There's a lot Lotus doesn't tell us, granted, but what she does tell us is, with hardly any exceptions, both accurate and truthful to the best of her ability.

Whether or not some of that stuff is moral is a whole other issue entirely. But, so far, her word is pretty good.

[Gamer3548]

"The War Within"

I have a feeling that in that quest we will get a Tenno civil war because of this discovery (Lotus = Sentient) and Teshin will be the head of the rebellion.  

[WhiteDagger]

1 minute ago, Teloch said:

So you justify the death of an entire civilization should their leaders be d*ckheads in your morale coordinates? Dude, are you with the veil?

Why should it prevent the natural state of things (the struggle for power) and so the system progress? And, answering your question, there is a simple, non-machiavellian way to prevent new civilizations from happening: to wipe the whole life.

I belive that the teeno should've supported corpus and saved civilian lives, not their own meat golems that can be easily 3D-printed

What is made artificially can't trully be alive.

Once again you show that you didn't read the lore, we didnt kill an entire civilization we killed the executors and the high ranking orokin which led to caos since their caste system made most orokin tech unusable if the leaders are dead.

The natural state of the system when we awoke was a Grineer takeover since nothing could stop them, so we came halted them preventing total dominance and all non-grineer life from ending up in slavery.

Yeah we should have saved civilians, but see the Corpus is not so nice as you think they are, a corpus would pretty much exploit civilians for profit not caring if they suffer because of it.

I beg to differ.

Scientifically we are biological machines working by chemical reactions.

Religiously we are beings created by a higher power/lifeform aka an artificial race.

[Kaokasalis]

53 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because there would've been no need to "maintain balance" lest this terraforming AI never made it to the Origin system?

Even if we had destroyed all the Sentients do you really think the Orokin would let us have lived? We were abominations and outcast in their eyes. Ballas made that clear.

54 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because it acts as a Machiavellian?

The Lotus may act duplicitous in nature but I hardly find her motives and actions related to self serving or self gain. Rather she has a family now that she seeks to protect.

54 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because of it's "mothery instincts" which resulted in our ignorance, we sacrificed numerous civilians for the sake of interchangeable tools during the Gravidus?

That "ignorance" was our own choice. Lotus left it completely up to us in which side we choose to align with and the majority choo
se the Grineer. She had no role in that.

54 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because that AI is simply unable to understand the ethics of living beings?

Yet she betrayed her "father" and entire race for a chance of having a family. She helped what had been designed to destroy her kind. The Orokin saw us as abominations and outcast. The Grineer seeks to kill sleeping Tenno and the Corpus exploit our warframes. Id say out of all the parties in the Origin system the Lotus is probably one of the better beings at understanding ethics of living beings.

54 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because that AI is unfamiliar with the concept of responsibility?

Again she she betrayed her "father" and entire race for a chance of having a family. At the last moment. That makes her pretty capable of understanding responsibility in my opinion.

[(PSN)JaviOnTheRocks]

Introducing a plot twist that turned Lotus into a villain that Tenno would oppose would mean that all the current comm during missions wouldn't make sense and would have to be replaced, which I don't see happening.

[Teloch]

20 minutes ago, Gamer3548 said:

"The War Within"

I have a feeling that in that quest we will get a Tenno civil war because of this discovery (Lotus = Sentient) and Teshin will be the head of the rebellion.  

 

 

 

If so, it would be jolly good, actually. 

20 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

It's less about good and bad and more about trust. DE said she's the "straight man" of Warframe, meaning you can usually count on what she says being true. Which, so far, holds up pretty well: There's a lot Lotus doesn't tell us, granted, but what she does tell us is, with hardly any exceptions, both accurate and truthful to the best of her ability.

Whether or not some of that stuff is moral is a whole other issue entirely. But, so far, her word is pretty good.

 

 

 

Sure thing. Some are credulous, others are not. 

 

19 minutes ago, WhiteDagger said:

Once again you show that you didn't read the lore, we didnt kill an entire civilization we killed the executors and the high ranking orokin which led to caos since their caste system made most orokin tech unusable if the leaders are dead.

The natural state of the system when we awoke was a Grineer takeover since nothing could stop them, so we came halted them preventing total dominance and all non-grineer life from ending up in slavery.

Yeah we should have saved civilians, but see the Corpus is not so nice as you think they are, a corpus would pretty much exploit civilians for profit not caring if they suffer because of it.

I beg to differ.

Scientifically we are biological machines working by chemical reactions.

Religiously we are beings created by a higher power/lifeform aka an artificial race.

 

 

Destruction of the system = chaos = casualties and havoc. There were no upheavals without losses.

The only question is: was it worth it?

Also, since the lotusoids have no known views on the future of the system, at the moment they are just preserving the artificial status quo (which can't last forever)

Hue hue hue. When it comes to the speculations of "what is life" type, it means that we ran out of the discourse resource.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Teloch

[DefekteDelfin]

The rest of the Orokin that weren't involved in these heinous acts like civillians or lower ranking officials are the ancestors of the Solar Systems population today. The synthesis entries show that many survived the Orokin fall died not to the tenno, but to the Infested and Grineer which the Tenno combat today. The Corpus slowly rose to power afterwards but todays Orokin descendants are presumably living in colonies and settlements.

This means the Tenno didn't slaughter an entire civilization but instead, the Corrupt high ranking officials and the left were spared. If you read the lore, some Tenno actually saved the Orokin, like the Lorists and Dax who were trapped on Mars with the infested.

Please read up on the Synthesis entries. You seem to be very misguided on the lore.

 

In addition, the War within is presumably not Teshin rebelling and us joining him. What happens to all the recorded dialouge and such if we do that? Please explain to me your hate for the Lotus. You and some other guy who i shall not mention share an irrational hatred of the Lotus seemingly for no valid reason.

Edited July 14, 2016 by DefekteDelfin
Added more counter arguments

[DefekteDelfin]

Deleted this

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by DefekteDelfin

[SilvaDreams]

27 minutes ago, Teloch said:

So you justify the death of an entire civilization should their leaders be d*ckheads in your morale coordinates? Dude, are you with the veil?

Why should it prevent the natural state of things (the struggle for power) and so the system progress? And, answering your question, there is a simple, non-machiavellian way to prevent new civilizations from happening: to wipe the whole life.

I belive that the teeno should've supported corpus and saved civilian lives, not their own meat golems that can be easily 3D-printed

What is made artificially can't trully be alive.

The civilization isn't dead, just the government that ruled it.

The corpus and colonies are their descendants, the ones whom weren't in positions of any notable power.

[MokutoBunshi]

2 hours ago, Teloch said:

Maybe he hates us for breaking the hierarchal spine of the human civilization, causing uncontrollable chaos with billions of civil casualties (including our own distant relatives), stopping at first and then reversing the technical and cultural progress, allowing civilizational conquests to fade, and, what is more importantly, not offering any sort of new order (read: evading the responsibility) and cowardly going dormant like infantile twats with no sense of duty or dignity we truly are. 

And then, after centuries, when the system began to establish at least a sort of (cruel, but still) order, the "glorious saviors" wake up once again...

Marvelous... 

Project Tenno or Ten-O 10-0 the 10 - 0 project could have also been prject A-O cause yeah, if you look at it from most other peoples perspective.... Tenno are A-Holes...

 

]\'[

[BlazerEraser]

They can't make Lotus evil for 2 reasons.

1. She is quite simply, integral to Warframe and Rebecca voices her. (this is the non-lore reason)

2. She already sacrificed everything she had to save us, like literally has no home now and she is constantly hiding and providing us support, she had plenty of opportunities to cave in and sell us out.

Edited July 14, 2016 by BlazerEraser

[TasteVengence]

Just give me Darvo to help out, his comms is so much better -and funnyer then the Lotus-

[WhiteDagger]

4 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Destruction of the system = chaos = casualties and havoc. There were no upheavals without losses.

The only question is: was it worth it?

Also, since the lotusoids have no known views on the future of the system, at the moment they are just preserving the artificial status quo (which can't last forever)

Hue hue hue. When it comes to the speculations of "what is life" type, it means that ran out of the discourse resource.

Once again the lore states the system was dying because of the way of the Orokin, now lets create a scenario where the terraforming of Tau was succesfull and the Sentients died of the void. The most plausible outcome is the orokin and the rich migrating there continuing their pompous life while the rest of the civilisation stuck in a system left barren slowly suffering and dying.

Here is a Comparsion: Was it worth stopping Hitler?Was it worth preventing every non-aryan race from be used as slaves and exterminated?

We don't se one yet it doesent mean there isn't one.

Oh i don't intend on starting a "what is life" discussion im merely pointing out the fact you dissmiss a race purely because they are not 1:1 like us.

[Yrveth]

It is very unlikely that the Lotus will betray us in any meaningful way. She is pivotal to the game. Giving us a choice between her and another leader figure would mean, for starters, recording alternative set of voice lines, hundreds of them. That's a lot of work.

But even if DE are willing to go through that expense for the sake of the choice, the missions we do will be the same. If we were to be forced into making a choice that limits the missions we can participate in, the outrage would be overwhelming. So we'd be still doing the exact same things (that make people suspicious of the Lotus!) but for someone else... who would be for some reason... not suspicious?..

Of course, things could be said about the way the story is presented and the segregation between lore and gameplay (do you really think you killed 19800 Corpus in that survival mission? Do you really think there were 19800 Corpus on that space ship?) but the fact stands that people are very willing to reach for arguments in favour of that "Evil Lotus". Okay! That's good! Always be critical of authority figures! But then, why not extend the same attitude towards the suggested alternatives? What did Teshin do to make you trust him? During Natah, he promised to never lie to us. What did he tell us?

Nothing.

I am honestly baffled by all the "Evil Lotus" theories. Time and time again we are given more evidence that the Orokin were horrible. Teshin's dialogue is pro-Orokin. And yet people are more and more willing to twist the story so that the Lotus is the bad one here. You know why.

[Teloch]

8 minutes ago, BlazerEraser said:

1. She is quite simply, integral to Warframe and Rebecca voices her. (this is the non-lore reason)

Yup. Pretty much this. Turning the game's main character into a villain would be way too original even for DE's standards

7 minutes ago, WhiteDagger said:

Once again the lore states the system was dying because of the way of the Orokin, now lets create a scenario where the terraforming of Tau was succesfull and the Sentients died of the void. The most plausible outcome is the orokin and the rich migrating there continuing their pompous life while the rest of the civilisation stuck in a system left barren slowly suffering and dying.

 

We will never know that now

8 minutes ago, WhiteDagger said:

Here is a Comparsion: Was it worth stopping Hitler?Was it worth preventing every non-aryan race from be used as slaves and exterminated?

Not sure if this comparison is logically correct since orokin were dominating all and everything in the origin system before the conflict.

 

Anyway, we'll see more lore by the mid of August. I doubt that DE will give lotusoids any particular views on the system development despite the "whack those who rise in power" line of behavior, but who knows

[WhiteDagger]

2 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Not sure if this comparison is logically correct since orokin were dominating all and everything in the origin system before the conflict.

My apologies i tought you meant was it worth stopping the grineer. Still i believ it was worth it, the Orokin caused plenty of problem, they killed brilliant scientist who could solve the systems problem simply because they didnt fit their views, created a slave race, during the war dropped the technocyte on planets to turn their own into infested to slow the Sentients, abducted children and throw them in the void to create supersoldiers who they treated whith disgust, also turned humans into Cephalons by shaving down their personality until nothing but an obidient slave remained.

[DeadScream]

3 hours ago, QuiQuQa said:

Yeah she is a sentient indeed, one that abandoned and betrayed her whole race, plans and ideals just to save us, to protect us, to adopt us as her space children.

Space mom is love, space mom is life

I've read "space chicken" at first, I have to stop these new void runs they are killing my eyes ._.

[Teloch]

11 minutes ago, WhiteDagger said:

My apologies i tought you meant was it worth stopping the grineer. Still i believ it was worth it, the Orokin caused plenty of problem, they killed brilliant scientist who could solve the systems problem simply because they didnt fit their views, created a slave race, during the war dropped the technocyte on planets to turn their own into infested to slow the Sentients, abducted children and throw them in the void to create supersoldiers who they treated whith disgust, also turned humans into Cephalons by shaving down their personality until nothing but an obidient slave remained.

 

 

Well, that's the natural behavioral line of those who are thirsty for power. 

But what is more interesting is the fact that the state of force vacuum can't exist forever. That makes me wonder if DE would ever move the plot in the direction of establishing the stable rule and order.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Teloch