Ash Bladestorm Replacement

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

No need for me to watch it I stated he uses 'mixed attack methods' and you kept insisting he is a "MELEE" frame without taking all factors into consideration in capitals see your quotation below ... I was simply emphasising you can't claim he is 100% melee if he's running around throwing Smoke bombs ... throwing Shurkien. Throwing isn't a melee action so that is why I say he uses mixed attack methods.

That video was just if you have a general interest in Ninjas.

I do recognize he uses mixed methods. But you can't deny he is a melee oriented frame, with his powers improving his melee potential. Even in Warframe's trailer you see Ash shooting something with akFuris (not really showing him killing anything) then instead of reloading he pulls his melee weapons (dual heat swords) and we see him dispatching mooks using melee assassinations, even his final attack to Vor is a melee attack.

My point is that people try to make him a caster frame for some unfathomable reason, not giving any incentive or tool for stealth, not improving in any form his melee potential, and mostly killing his crowd clearing capabilities because current bladestorm is "op" while gleefully ignoring other frames that have powers just as cheesy or worse. I'm more interested in Ash keep being Ash instead of turning him into a chain-smoker made of smoke, the lead of a clone conga dance or a Shuriken-throwing Mesa-knockoff.

[BlackCoMerc]

Wow. Ash is...a sensitive subject.

Please bear in mind: 25 energy per strike seems high, but it's Finisher damage, and before efficiency. 

This is not intended as a melee mode. It's a tactical kill switch. Toggle it on to take down big threats, and if they drop energy orbs, keep going.

[main_antagonist]

21 minutes ago, Arrendee said:

I understand what you are saying, there are a lot of abilities that are similar, but not all.. I don't think you're getting the point though.. Bladestorm is unique, so we take something that is unique and nerf it or change the ability completely? So unique is bad? Diversity is bad? So what we want is to take the Warframe abilities that are unique and make them similar to other Warframe abilities? Sounds fun..  

You're implying things I never said, they are similar is what I stated. It's unique but also outdated it's not fun to the majority of players the forums prove that with the constant demands for a rework, if I wasn't right this thread/topic wouldn't even exist.

Whatever DE chooses will be unique perhaps similar but it will still be unique which sounds fun to me.

Edited August 3, 2016 by main_antagonist

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Wow. Ash is...a sensitive subject.

Please bear in mind: 25 energy per strike seems high, but it's Finisher damage, and before efficiency. 

This is not intended as a melee mode. It's a tactical kill switch. Toggle it on to take down big threats, and if they drop energy orbs, keep going.

Any frame is a sensitive subject really, but since DE tried to turn bladestorm into the awfully dum "World on bladestorm" we  Ash fans are even more worried about it's future, specially since DE mentioned they plan to change bladestorm and NOTHING else, even though his other abilities need to be looked at too, and Ash is one of the 8 original frames, he deserves a full rework just like Mag or Excalibur.

To be honest, I dislike Meta builds, meta builds are what makes current bladestorm sh*t, I have a lot of fun casting a bladestorm every once in a while by running with all my power stats at 100% (sans Duration that's sitting at 150%), so as far as I know what makes current Bladestorm broken are precisely efficiency builds. In the rework I suggested I turned bladestorm into a Duration based stance ultimate (kind of like old hysteria) and that would scr*w efficiency meta build since Fleeting Expertise reduces duration.

For tactical kills (like taking out bombards or heavies) we have Teleport, which costs 25 energy, half that if you have Fatal Teleport, even less with efficiency builds. Your suggestion kills Ash's AoE potential and gives to it Teleport's job.

[main_antagonist]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

Any frame is a sensitive subject really, but since DE tried to turn bladestorm into the awfully dum "World on bladestorm" we  Ash fans are even more worried about it's future, specially since DE mentioned they plan to change bladestorm and NOTHING else, even though his other abilities need to be looked at too, and Ash is one of the 8 original frames, he deserves a full rework just like Mag or Excalibur.

To be honest, I dislike Meta builds, meta builds are what makes current bladestorm sh*t, I have a lot of fun casting a bladestorm every once in a while by running with all my power stats at 100% (sans Duration that's sitting at 150%), so as far as I know what makes current Bladestorm broken are precisely efficiency builds. In the rework I suggested I turned bladestorm into a Duration based stance ultimate (kind of like old hysteria) and that would scr*w efficiency meta build since Fleeting Expertise reduces duration.

For tactical kills (like taking out bombards or heavies) we have Teleport, which costs 25 energy, half that if you have Fatal Teleport, even less with efficiency builds. Your suggestion kills Ash's AoE potential and gives to it Teleport's job.

It's his concept and he's entitled to have his own envision of how it could work. Perhaps offer some positive constructive criticism to help improve it, we know that you have a concept that's great you have your own topic in these forums for it but you should be encouraging his idea and helping it become something good too.

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

It's his concept and he's entitled to have his own envision of how it could work. Perhaps offer some positive constructive criticism to help improve it, we know that you have a concept that's great you have your own topic in these forums for it but you should be encouraging his idea and helping it become something good too.

I respect his vision, but if nobody points out the flaws they will stay there. I've been pointed out about flaws on my concepts, and I corrected them.

OP, use my criticism to improve your concept. Work out the kinks and make it something that could work with or without meta builds, something that could be ported to Conclave with little to no change, something that would make Ash more enjoyable.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

52 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

I honestly can't think of any abilities that are exactly the same, similar perhaps but not the same.

Teleport and switch teleport are similar but different.

Radial blind and Prism both blind but one does damage with lasers I'm not even gonna touch base on Oberon there.

Peace maker, Exhaled Blade, Hysteria, Artemis Bow, Primal Fury? All different weapons all function differently if the Devs or the community honestly believed what you were saying they'd have stopped after releasing Excalibur. 

You're generalising it too much.

I agree with you on this one since when does a ninja require a energy based weapon.

[Arrendee]

27 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

You're implying things I never said, they are similar is what I stated. It's unique but also outdated it's not fun to the majority of players the forums prove that with the constant demands for a rework, if I wasn't right this thread/topic wouldn't even exist.

Whatever DE chooses will be unique perhaps similar but it will still be unique which sounds fun to me.

Similar and unique are contradictions.. As Far as the "majority of players", huge exaggeration, I've seen just as many people on the forums and in game that want the ability left alone..

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, Arrendee said:

Similar and unique are contradictions.. As Far as the "majority of players", huge exaggeration, I've seen just as many people on the forums and in game that want the ability left alone..

That's true, there is nothing wrong with current bladestorm (I think the problem is Fleeting Expertise, but that's another beast). But DE has decided to rework it, so our best chance to have a good ability (or better yet, a warframe rework) is to give feedback and suggestions and hope DE picks the good ones. Oh, btw, you should see Ash's entire kit in Conclave, it's mostly sh*t, so a rework that make his abilities useful would be welcome.

[BlackCoMerc]

In truth, I forgot Fatal Teleport exists. Honest.

Thanks for the reminder.

As for Bladestorm...I wanted something interactive, but more tactical than Exalted Blade.

[shut]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The idea is to enable a few, powerful, killing strikes. Assassin's strikes. One kill for every swing of the blades.

 

48 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Wow. Ash is...a sensitive subject.

Please bear in mind: 25 energy per strike seems high, but it's Finisher damage, and before efficiency. 

This is not intended as a melee mode. It's a tactical kill switch. Toggle it on to take down big threats, and if they drop energy orbs, keep going.

He's already got Teleport for that, though. And an augment for Teleport that strengthens this role even further.

The whole point of Bladestorm is that each hit is weaker than a Teleport finisher, but it hits way faster and hits way more enemies at once. It's perfectly possible to make the ability more interactive without falling right into Teleport's already-existing niche.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, SortaRandom said:

 

He's already got Teleport for that, though. And an augment for Teleport that strengthens this role even further.

The whole point of Bladestorm is that each hit is weaker than a Teleport finisher, but it hits way faster and hits way more enemies at once. It's perfectly possible to make the ability more interactive without falling right into Teleport's already-existing niche.

Fair point. Sort of forgot the new teleport augment. I love Ash, but hate Bladestorm. So I shelved him.

Still hoping for an interactive rework, though, and one befitting an assassin frame.

[main_antagonist]

2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

 

He's already got Teleport for that, though. And an augment for Teleport that strengthens this role even further.

The whole point of Bladestorm is that each hit is weaker than a Teleport finisher, but it hits way faster and hits way more enemies at once. It's perfectly possible to make the ability more interactive without falling right into Teleport's already-existing niche.

My rework actually has something similar to what you're mentioning pm me if you want the link.

The things I like about OP's concept are;

All attacks deal scaling, Finisher damage

Enemies not killed by melee attacks suffer a puncture proc and slash proc.

Combo counter duration is doubled, and increases an additional 10℅ for each kill.

Wall cling duration is greatly enhanced.

Unaware enemies are killed by attacks made while Assassin's Grace is active.

 

That feels ninja to me :)

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

My rework actually has something similar to what you're mentioning pm me if you want the link.

The things I like about OP's concept are;

All attacks deal scaling, Finisher damage

Enemies not killed by melee attacks suffer a puncture proc and slash proc.

Combo counter duration is doubled, and increases an additional 10℅ for each kill.

Wall cling duration is greatly enhanced.

Unaware enemies are killed by attacks made while Assassin's Grace is active.

 

That feels ninja to me :)

Thanks for the feedback.

Come to it, Fatal Teleport could be reworked along with the change to Assassin's Grace. 

As Main says above, I wanted something that felt Ninja like. Deadly, quick and rewarding careful use and timing.

[[DE]Taylor]

Personal attacks will not be tolerated, guys. If you have a problem with a user, report them and ignore them. The moderation team will deal with the situation from there.

Thanks.

Edited August 3, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
clarified

[main_antagonist]

@BlackCoMerc Did you have any ideas for the visuals that would be used for your concept? :)

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Thanks for the feedback.

Come to it, Fatal Teleport could be reworked along with the change to Assassin's Grace. 

As Main says above, I wanted something that felt Ninja like. Deadly, quick and rewarding careful use and timing.

You should go for a full or partial rework of his other abilities then to solve any needless overlap. Augments are centered on improving specific abilities.

[BlackCoMerc]

20 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

@BlackCoMerc Did you have any ideas for the visuals that would be used for your concept? :)

I didn't, no. I would think quick, precise strikes and stabs for the blows he would deliver.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

-maybe add, when an enemy is successfully killed with assassins grace, it spawns a shadow to do a finisher attack on another enemy(when above 100 power strength)

after 150 power strength it spawns 2 and caps out at 3 after 200.

-and make it affected by melee mods including covert lethality

this would make it equal parts old blade storm and less slide show

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)TwilightGrim said:

-maybe add, when an enemy is successfully killed with assassins grace, it spawns a shadow to do a finisher attack on another enemy(when above 100 power strength)

after 150 power strength it spawns 2 and caps out at 3 after 200.

-and make it affected by melee mods including covert lethality

this would make it equal parts old blade storm and less slide show

I suggest changing the Power Str requirement to the level of the ability. Abilities have 4 levels, just make lvl1 spawn 1 shadow, level 2 spawn 2 shadows and so on. Less meta build requirement.

[JalakBali]

The only problem with Bladestorm is how un-interactive it works. Fatal Teleport is what Bladestorm could be if it were more interactive. So an interactive Bladestorm would be:

1. You activate Bladestorm and you go invis for a maximum 3 seconds (let's call this the Smoke state). During this time you're raised off the ground and be immune to all damage but unable to move or attack. Your vision would darken as you're in a sorta limbo state while enemies would glow blue, making them easier to spot (the effect would look like a brighter Simaris scan target).

2. During this 3 seconds Smoke state, you can "tag" enemies by clicking on them, as many as you want. The "tag" has a broad targeting reticle, meaning it doesn't have to be pin-point perfect and quite generous on hitting the targets. They will glow red if tagged.

3. When the 3 seconds is finished, your clones would perform Bladestorm finisher attacks on the tagged enemies while you yourself would perform the attack on the last tagged target.

4. You will be teleported to the last enemy you tagged and attacked. You're still in your Smoke state.

5. Another Smoke state starts but only with 2.5 seconds window. During this time you can tag more enemies, as long as they're visible.

6. Repeat the process and your Smoke state will lower by 0.5 second every time a phase is done until the last phase when you only have 1 second window, *or* you failed to tag any more enemies.

Note that you cannot increase the invis phase duration with mods.

 

So, how would this system work if you used Bladestorm? It's about as or more interactive than Mesa's Peacemaker. You start Bladestorm, tag like mad and then you jumped to the last guy you tagged. You can still tag more if there are still enemies in the vicinity. This state would last at a maximum of 10 seconds if you can keep tagging enemies.

Why the jumping to the last guy you tagged? Because without it you're just another Mesa, rooted in place while aiming at enemies. You can pick which guy you jump last to and if there are more enemies around the corner near him, you can get those in the continuing phase. In other words, if there are enemies in 2-3 rooms, Ash could wiped them out if your reaction is fast enough. It's more interactive but it will definitely upset some people since it's no longer a dumb-fire-and-forget power. You could rake up ridiculous body count with this but only if you're quick at aiming.

The potential downside I see from this is since the Smoke state/Bladestorm is not channeled, meaning it could benefit from all the energy generation methods including EV Trinity, Ash could potentially be in the Smoke state for the entirety of the mission, provided there is a constant stream of enemies, since the moment Bladestorm is over he could just activate it again. He could be invisible and untouchable for the entire mission, seen only as his clones and himself appear and execute enemies. But on the other hand, this is what Ash with EV Trinity has been seen doing in missions currently.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I suggest changing the Power Str requirement to the level of the ability. Abilities have 4 levels, just make lvl1 spawn 1 shadow, level 2 spawn 2 shadows and so on. Less meta build requirement.

ok then how about this.

-at max rank it spawns 3

-since cover lethality would affect the ability and to add spice to it, when above 100 power strength adds 1 more shadow and above 200 adds 1 more on top of it(lower power strength means less clones, a loss of one in every -25 power strength increments(can't go below 0 clones))

--this prevents a meta, low strength build on ash, but allows for a more balanced set up for those with the other abilities in mind

-keep in mind this is still way more interactive than the current blade storm, which interacts with up to 18 enemies(dont know exact amount)

Edited August 4, 2016 by (PS4)TwilightGrim

[Twilight053]

Blade Storm as it is will be reworked, sadly. DE is moving away from press-4-to-win to something with more interactivity.

[WrathAscending]

What I'd do is move Teleport to his 4th, make it incorporate the Fatal Teleport augment, and apply a casting cost reduction for using it within a combo window like Landslide, Rhino Charge, or Slash Dash. Possibly combine this with a reduction in base cast cost to 50 Energy.

This frees up his 3 but then you need to replace it. As a Ninja frame the natural fit would be giving him a poison weapon ability, but Saryn is already a thing and has Toxic Lash. Maybe give him smoke bombs that can incapacitate enemies and open them to finishers.

Also buff the duration on Smoke Screen, it's pretty anaemic.

[Nazrethim]

10 hours ago, (PS4)TwilightGrim said:

--this prevents a meta, low strength build on ash, but allows for a more balanced set up for those with the other abilities in mind

-keep in mind this is still way more interactive than the current blade storm, which interacts with up to 18 enemies(dont know exact amount)

-People build for power strenght, the problem with current Bladestorm is that it's spammable, consequence of Fleeting Expertise (+Efficiency -Duration). That's why in my suggestion I made BS a duration based ability instead of a toggle, because it  kills the FE meta.

-Bladestorm marks at most 18 targets, or mark fewer targets and continues attacking until the 18 cap is reached.

4 hours ago, WrathAscending said:

What I'd do is move Teleport to his 4th, make it incorporate the Fatal Teleport augment, and apply a casting cost reduction for using it within a combo window like Landslide, Rhino Charge, or Slash Dash. Possibly combine this with a reduction in base cast cost to 50 Energy.

This frees up his 3 but then you need to replace it. As a Ninja frame the natural fit would be giving him a poison weapon ability, but Saryn is already a thing and has Toxic Lash. Maybe give him smoke bombs that can incapacitate enemies and open them to finishers.

Also buff the duration on Smoke Screen, it's pretty anaemic.

 

Toxic, Stun and other cloud based abilties could be baked-in into Smoke Screen similar to Ivara's Quiver or Vauban's Minelayer. A Defensive/Mobility buff could be placed there, or another offensive tool.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Nazrethim