Covert Lethality change.

[SicSlaver]

 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

That isn't true as i have just read your past comments 

 

This comment alone proves you have a problem with how others play the game and if you truly care about balancing issues in the game stop trying to nerf because of how others play the game and instead try to balance the enemies first seriously nerf doesn't always=balance in fact in this game it's the exact opposite.

The main issue is still game balance. I'd obviously wouldn't be happy with someone using something that entirely wins the mission for you and would rather that doesn't exist. I guess you're fine with it if such a probable item exists in the game, though. Consider the consequences these items have on the game in the first place. It's already had tremendous effect, but it's laughable that people still don't see it. The enemy balance became so wonky in the first place because these items existed in the first place and then the playerbase complained about the game being boring and easy, but wouldn't let DE nerf these items. So DE introduced enemies that now people are complaining about being imbalanced and unfair. Please, look a bit further ahead.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

Just now, Viegraf said:

I'm willing to bet that enemies are balanced around the players' toolsets. *coughnullifierscough* If that's the case we can't nerf enemies without nerfing players first. I remember seeing a thread a while back arguing that "Players are OP", and that is why enemies are OP.

Players have been getting nerfed long before nullifiers 

[Marthrym]

It's one one the very few counters to the current broken enemy scaling. Said enemy scaling showing no sign of getting better any time soon.

I say let it be. It works. It's not broken, or bugged. No reason to change it. Many things need balance, fixing, etc. I'd rather not touch what does work as intended.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Marthrym

[Thrymm]

2 hours ago, thalx said:

You forgot the latest gift of the lotus, enemies starting at level 9999.

I did that with Nekros and a Jat Kittag, solo.  I didn't even own Covert Lethality until a couple days after that.

When I did acquire Covert Lethality, I put it on, brought it out, shrugged, and am continuing to play with non-dagger melee weapons that I like better.  A full slide attack that wipes out a half dozen crewmen and a tech is more effective in far more situations than knowing I'll insta kill one heavy in the vast majority of situations.

If I'm in a spot that I have to kill level 100's or even higher, I bring a Hek or Sancti Tigris.  Enemies that I have to handle that quickly are better dealt with at range.  If I'm going to actually close to melee with something that tough, positioning to a finisher and one shotting them is quite balanced in comparison.

[SicSlaver]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

Players have been getting nerfed long before nullifiers 

I think you just largely hate nerf balances and only concentrate on those. We got many tremendous buffs that made them release these garbage enemies.

7 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

It's one one the very few counters to the current broken enemy scaling. Said enemy scaling showing no sign of getting better any time soon.

I say let it be. It works. It's not broken, or bugged. No reason to change it. Many things need balance, fixing, etc. I'd rather not touch what does work as intended.

Well, I know that, but it is a concern as it impedes any future balances. There are already many and more important issues, but they've already been brought up before by me or someone else. This is just another thing they should think about. Remember how they talk about how mandatory mods is an issue like they actually care? This is one of them.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[Viegraf]

1 minute ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

Players have been getting nerfed long before nullifiers 

Frames have been, sure. But the last gun nerf I can think of is fixing the sudacor having 10x its intended damage or something silly like that and let's be honest, most player power comes from guns. Nullifiers are in and of themselves one of the biggest nerfs to players that has ever happened, by flat out denying players from using large sections of their kit which, coincidentally, also nullifies fun.

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

2 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

I think you just largely hate nerf balances and only concentrate on those. We got many tremendous buffs that made them release these garbage enemies.

I have no problem with reworks i do however have a problem with nerfing to the point where the frame or weapon isn't fun to use or even able to be used anymore.

[SicSlaver]

3 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

I did that with Nekros and a Jat Kittag, solo.  I didn't even own Covert Lethality until a couple days after that.

When I did acquire Covert Lethality, I put it on, brought it out, shrugged, and am continuing to play with non-dagger melee weapons that I like better.  A full slide attack that wipes out a half dozen crewmen and a tech is more effective in far more situations than knowing I'll insta kill one heavy in the vast majority of situations.

If I'm in a spot that I have to kill level 100's or even higher, I bring a Hek or Sancti Tigris.  Enemies that I have to handle that quickly are better dealt with at range.  If I'm going to actually close to melee with something that tough, positioning to a finisher and one shotting them is quite balanced in comparison.

Well, the abilities that open them up to finishers make enemies harmless anyways. I've mentioned other issues already that's not concerned with just wiping out large amounts of enemies or what's better.

[SicSlaver]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

I have no problem with reworks i do however have a problem with nerfing to the point where the frame or weapon isn't fun to use or even able to be used anymore.

I can't think of any recent reworks that has done that to a Warframe or weapon. Can you remind me what it was? Or don't if you're afraid I might disagree with you and further prolong this discussion.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[Marthrym]

2 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

Well, I know that, but it is a concern as it impedes any future balances. There are already many and more important issues, but they've already been brought up before by me or someone else. This is just another thing they should think about. Remember how they talk about how mandatory mods is an issue like they actually care? This is one of them.

It doesn't impede future balances in any way from where I stand. It's not a core feature. Fix the core, THEN fix what revolves around it. And again, it works as the devs intended it to, and doesn't break the game. It does show that mandatory mods are a indeed problem though, that's for sure. And that once again enemy scaling is long due a return to the drawing board, along with a host of other things unfortunately.

 

1 minute ago, Viegraf said:

Frames have been, sure. But the last gun nerf I can think of is fixing the sudacor having 10x its intended damage or something silly like that and let's be honest, most player power comes from guns. Nullifiers are in and of themselves one of the biggest nerfs to players that has ever happened, by flat out denying players from using large sections of their kit which, coincidentally, also nullifies fun.

Exactly. Nullifiers just kill gameplay options and offer nothing in return. They are horribly designed, a lazy attempt at countering CC abilities doing their job too well. Now they don't do anything instead of doing what they're supposed to do without being too strong. And they even impact weapons, which shows once more how bad they need a heavy overhaul. They don't fix anything, they just break stuff.

[SicSlaver]

2 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

It doesn't impede future balances in any way from where I stand. It's not a core feature. Fix the core, THEN fix what revolves around it. And again, it works as the devs intended it to, and doesn't break the game. It does show that mandatory mods are a indeed problem though, that's for sure. And that once again enemy scaling is long due a return to the drawing board, along with a host of other things unfortunately.

 

Exactly. Nullifiers just kill gameplay options and offer nothing in return. They are horribly designed, a lazy attempt at countering CC abilities doing their job too well. Now they don't do anything instead of doing what they're supposed to do without being too strong. And they even impact weapons, which shows once more how bad they need a heavy overhaul. They don't fix anything, they just break stuff.

I was too lazy to write something up about core changes, honestly.... Someone probably has done a better job of it. I've never written a very long post. Like those threads about CC skills and item drop chance manipulation skills ruining the game were really good. I usually just bring up the smaller things as I don't actually expect DE to make any large changes. I just do this for fun.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[Viegraf]

7 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

I can't think of any recent reworks that has done that to a Warframe or weapon. Can you remind me what it was? Or don't if you're afraid I might disagree with you and further prolong this discussion.

If you're talking about nerf-reworks, I recall a thinly veiled one against Valkyr's Hysteria where they added scaling energy drain and an effect which causes her to take damage if she leaves hysteria too close to enemies

If you're talking about reworks that were NOT nerfs, Bounce+.

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

14 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

Or don't if you're afraid I might disagree with you and further prolong this discussion.

Please don't think people are afraid of you disagreeing with them in a forum about a video game LOL

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

53 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

Are claw weapon finishers still insanely slow? That animation they used is ridiculous!

Even with Primed Fury they are still pretty slow

[SicSlaver]

1 minute ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

Please don't think people are afraid of you disagreeing with them in a forum about a video game LOL

I said afraid of further discussion due my disagreement....

 

3 minutes ago, Viegraf said:

If you're talking about nerf-reworks, I recall a thinly veiled one against Valkyr's Hysteria where they added scaling energy drain and an effect which causes her to take damage if she leaves hysteria too close to enemies

If you're talking about reworks that were NOT nerfs, Bounce+.

Thinly veiled is right. That skill still sounds OP. I haven't tried it yet, though. How is the 15 energy drain at max anyways? It doesn't sound significant at all. I doubt it makes her unplayable or unfun to play as. I know nerfs happened, but not to the extent of unplayable.

[Ketec]

"i don't like it, lets nerf everyone elses fun"
It is the ONLY reason to use daggers.

[SicSlaver]

2 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Even with Primed Fury they are still pretty slow

Ah, that's disappointing. I wish they would change that animation. Lifting enemies up slowly and slamming them on your knee is unnecessary.

[SicSlaver]

2 minutes ago, Ketec said:

"i don't like it, lets nerf everyone elses fun"
It is the ONLY reason to use daggers.

If you don't find daggers fun to play with, don't use it.... If you only use it because it can instant kill, then you're not playing it for the dagger's mechanics.... Your "fun" is basically being able to instant kill stuff. So anything with instant kill becomes fun for you and has nothing to do with what they actually are.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[Ketec]

3 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

If you don't find daggers fun to play with, don't use it.... If you only use it because it can instant kill, then you're not playing it for the dagger's mechanics.... Your "fun" is basically being able to instant kill stuff. So anything with instant kill becomes fun for you and has nothing to do with what they actually are.

So  your definition of "fun" is the correct one and everyone else is wrong?

[Viegraf]

3 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

I said afraid of further discussion due my disagreement....

 

Thinly veiled is right. That skill still sounds OP. I haven't tried it yet, though. How is the 15 energy drain at max anyways? It doesn't sound significant at all. I doubt it makes her unplayable or unfun to play as. I know nerfs happened, but not to the extent of unplayable.

I don't use Valkyr myself, but without efficiency/duration/flow mods it's 10 seconds of hysteria at max drain without energy drops. That's 10 seconds (in reality probably closer to 15) to run up to enemies, kill them with short ranged melee attacks, and get far enough away to not destroy yourself with stored damage. Meanwhile a similarly modded Excalibur can stay in EB for longer and do comparable damage from a safe distance.

[ZetraThorn]

1 hour ago, SicSlaver said:

I've said it before in another post, but no one has made a proper retort. To justify this mod is to basically justify that daggers should forever be garbage present and future releases. Also, why are people saying stuff like I'm trying to get rid of Covert Lethality completely and telling me not to use it? I love the 100 base damage increase! It's definitely necessary for how crap daggers are right now. I love the idea of bonuses for Finishers! I just think the instant kill is an overkill, that's all. I don't want to gimp myself, but I also don't want things that are so overpowered in the game that I might as well not be playing it. I want balance! Stop using hyperboles as if they're valid arguments.

I know. Maybe swap the Effects of Radial Finish and Covert lethality?

[SicSlaver]

5 minutes ago, Ketec said:

So  your definition of "fun" is the correct one and everyone else is wrong?

That wasn't the point of my comment. I was pointing out the error of your thought process and how you used "fun" as if it's a viable argument.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[Evanescent]

Not until you fix enemy scaling! :D

 

I'd say due to the nature of finishers it's fine. Daggers have a niche build now, which is great for them, and you need some semblance of skill at least to chain them as Ash.

You aren't killing entire mobs with one hit, are you?

[Xekrin]

2 hours ago, armedpoop said:

So let me get this straight, you dont want to manually gimp yourself if you dont have to, you want DE to gimp you (and the rest of the playerbase in the process) just because you dont want to "challenge yourself"? 

No, you didn't get it straight at all, I don't want DE to gimp anything.  I want daggers to not depend on CL to be a viable choice in a mission.  That is all CL does, give a reason to use a dagger to cheese the system.  Build doesn't even matter on daggers with CL, you can literally use ONLY CL on a dagger and due to how the mechanics work, you will instakill anything with certain frames.  If you prefer not to play those frames, CL becomes useless because daggers are useless without CL.

That is what I wish would change.  People say CL is fine as is, and sure because it has its uses for sure, but if daggers had their own niche that didn't require CL to be filled, and CL was a bonus rather than the only reason to use a dagger then it would be better in my opinion.

But more specifically what I was referring to was that people who comment "remove this or don't use that to challenge yourself" isn't a challenge at all.  So the comment makes no sense to me.  What other games do you play where not using the most powerful thing you can find is considered a challenge?  Using said item and it not being a cakewalk is a challenge to me.  

It is usually if not always the goal of MMO's and games in general to seek out the powerful objects so that the next stage isn't impossible but actually challenging.  When has it ever been "You've attained the best, now unequip it so you can enjoy the next mission!"

Even when DE does tac alerts that gimp you, lower your max energy, make it melee only or other penalties, those situations are being constantly questioned as to why must they do that to make a tac alert "challenging".  This is pretty much the same thing.  Shouldn't an event be interesting and challenging even with full energy capacity and a full arsenal available?  Why is the definition of challenge suddenly "take away things that make it fun"?

If that doesn't help it become clearer then I have no idea what else to say.

[ArchPhaeton]

Some people will never be happy.

Just no.