BLADESTORM: Does it really NEED to Change?

[BlackCoMerc]

Let us calmly, in the manner of mature adults, assess the situation.

Arguments FOR Changing Bladestorm:

It isn't interactive

Its a Slideshow (hehe, I said this myself not long ago)

Its more prone to Spam than the dollar menu in a Hawaiian sandwich shop. 

WAAAA! Ash-Hole stole all my killz! Mommy! I'm taking my Energy Vampire and going Home!

 

Arguments AGAINST Changing Bladestorm:

Its FUN! (Isnt this still important)

Its about the only efficient room nuker we've got left (seriously, this is more true every day)

It fits Ash's role as an Assassin in the fast paced, horde mode world of Warframe (Dishonored this aint, and thats ok)

Its FUN!

 

A couple of considerations:

I would speculate that Waframe has a considerable number of rather casual fans. People who play the game to veg out, have fun and (in the immortal worlds of my girl) "Make things go splodey." I would further wager that the bulk of Warframe's fan, while probably not quite this casual, are somewhat closer to this demographic than to the serious, hard-core, "I came from ARMA III and I want THAT, but with Parkour and Ninjas" crowd. I would lastly wager that the bulk of those fans who also happen to be Ash users...very vehemently do not want his Ultimate changed. 

But it kills everything in a blink without much interaction! 

Yeah. So does Avalanche. Or Maim when its not busy stunning more people than Buzzfeed talking about dresses and jaws. Where the Star Map is concerned, a Vaykor or Sancti weapon exploding kills everything in the room. How interactive are they? About as interactive as World on Fire. Or old Saryn. You know, the one people actually USED?

As it exists right now, Warframe features a number of Warframes capable of performing a number of roles. Support. Defense. Tank. Nuker. Warframe features these things because at heart, its an Action RPG. With guns and a third person view, sure. But that doesnt change the fact. And ARPG games are notorious for having (and needing) Nuke abilities. It goes with the territory.

And until and unless Warframe undergoes the sort of changes necessary to convert it into a true tactical TPS with abilities, its still an ARPG. So why not let it have a room nuker or two? Its not as if you are forced to play in a squad with one. Go PUG? See an Ash? Kindly ask them not to spam Storm...or drop. 

But Merc...its so spammable. 

Yes it is. And so is Avalanche. With which I have outkilled Ash on numerous occasions. WoF is spammable. Maim and Hysteria are near-permanent, always on modes. Oh, and Peacemaker...dont get me started. Mesa doesnt NEED no stinkin' swords. My point here is everything in the game is spammable. But  this doesnt make abilities bad, unfair or in need of change. 

Spammable abilities are a product of other design decisions (possibly flaws) that have nothing to do with the abilities themselves, and everything to do with 75% efficiency, Fleeting Expertise, Energy Siphon, Energy Vampire (cause that's a reasonable ability) and Orbs dropping like candy at a parade. Just because other flaws in the game allow abilities to be spammed now, doesnt mean we need to address yet another symptom. We need to balance energy and the economy surrounding it, NOT nerf the abilities that use that energy into borderline uselessness. 

All of which is not to say Ash DOES NOT need changed. Maybe he does. But we thought Saryn needed changed, too. And so she got it. And now she mostly goes on a shelf, except for those few people (and I've not seen one; seriously, not ONE) who still use her after her change. I keep her around, hoping someone comes to their senses and reverts most of the damage done to her at some point in the near future (seriously, your definition of Synergy is write a Macro or suffer Carpel Tunnel, why?) but I dont hold out much hope. I mean, she's still useful, I understand that; by pressing 3, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 4 after shooting 19 enemies with a stug or Viral Flamethrower within exactly 5m of Saryn on a Tuesday during a leap year blue moon in early March of where in the month hosts Easter you can get her to do something resembling her old level of damage.

Or...you can just bring Mesa, Frost or Equinox and have a much easier time killing all those armored enemies. Because you were using Corrosive Projection anyway, silly. Of course you were.

Personally, after using him for a time...I'm not so sure Ash really needs changed. I think the game needs frames to fill every role. I think we are perilously close to losing our last efficient Nuke. I think the game is much more fun when we are allowed to be as powerful as our enemies, if not more so.

Does the game need more challenging content? Sure it does. Modes with no Orbs as loot, limited energy and other optional modifiers should exist. Maybe a nightmare mode on every node, for bonus affinity and resources, even credits. But not every node needs to be Dark Souls in Space every day, and while yes I am aware that's a stretch, I still maintain that this game is, at heart, an ARPG, and that if we keep nerfing all the Nukers - and it will be perceived as a Nerf I promise - we will continue to see players leave the game, as we are now. 

Just some food for thought. Thanks for reading and please, lets keep it rational.

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[shoopypit]

I find everything else in his kit neat, but none of them work well with BS. And BS itself is boring to me. Which is why I hardly ever use him. Other people playing as him also makes the game boring IMO. I just played with randoms all night and every game there was at least one if not two and honestly i just get bored. So yes. Change it, make it more fun.

Edited August 8, 2016 by shoopypit

[L4Blue]

How is pressing 4 fun?

[Eldritchsqueaker]

I don't think you can compare it with any of those things at all. Your tone is rather rude as well. Bladestorm does need to change, and there are other room nukes but they require actual thought instead of "press 4".

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

I find everything else in his kit neat, but none of them work well with BS. And BS itself is boring to me. Which is why I hardly ever use him. Other people playing as him also makes the game boring IMO. I just played with randoms all night and every game there was at least one if not two and honestly i just get bored. So yes. Change it, make it more fun.

I understand that perspective. And I am not as much dead set against changing him, as I am willing to have a conversation about changing him, whether doing so fits Warframe as it exists now, and whether its a good idea at the present time. 

Not saying you are wrong. I can see using BS getting very tiresome after a time. But I feel the same about Exalted Bored and its much more "Interactive" than BS. 

1 minute ago, Mineeden said:

How is pressing 4 fun?

Teleporting into a crowd and killing a big dude, spinning round and hitting 4 to murder an entire crowd is a rush. Dodge rolling past the Eximus, whirling about and killing the entire crew is cool. Soaring above a crowd, watching the Heavy Gunner dial in on you...and then you're across the room murdering her retinue. Its a pretty cool thing to do and see from time to time.

I'm not going to use it every night (I have Frost for that) but its a cool change of pace. And cathartic. 

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I don't think you can compare it with any of those things at all. Your tone is rather rude as well. Bladestorm does need to change, and there are other room nukes but they require actual thought instead of "press 4".

Apologies if I came off rude. I was trying to keep the tone light, in fact. 

As for Bladestorm, not saying it doesnt need to change. Merely inviting a conversation about the idea of it changing. 

I would sincerely appreciate your feedback on why you think it needs to change, if you are interesting in offering it. 

[L4Blue]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Teleporting into a crowd and killing a big dude, spinning round and hitting 4 to murder an entire crowd is a rush. Dodge rolling past the Eximus, whirling about and killing the entire crew is cool. Soaring above a crowd, watching the Heavy Gunner dial in on you...and then you're across the room murdering her retinue. Its a pretty cool thing to do and see from time to time.

I'm not going to use it every night (I have Frost for that) but its a cool change of pace. And cathartic. 

So pressing 4 and doing nothing is fun.....

When i want to kill ememies i want to kill emeies and not watch how they die

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Mineeden said:

So pressing 4 and doing nothing is fun.....

When i want to kill ememies i want to kill emeies and not watch how they die

And you're free to do that. You have weapons. Use them. At least I trust you're talking about weapons, because...pressing a button and watching enemies die...is what we do with EVERY ability that deals damage...

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

I just want the Bladestorm animation to not make things invulnerable. Otherwise I'm fine with it. I also wouldn't compare it to Avalanche and WoF, because those can be built for more than just nuking rooms. A lot of people build them for CC and (in Avalanche's case) armor removal.

Edited August 8, 2016 by (XB1)Woofsie

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Woofsie said:

I just want the Bladestorm animation to not make things invulnerable. Otherwise I'm fine with it.

Now that, would be nice. Even when using Ash, if someone beats me to the target...no reason to not let them take it down. We're all in it together. 

[Omnipower]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Woofsie said:

I just want the Bladestorm animation to not make things invulnerable. Otherwise I'm fine with it.

yeah thats the main issue with ash we sit there and watch the ones that spam it takes ages to kill majority of the times one enemy; someone said it best they prolong the lives of some high priority targets, toxic ancients, that slowly kill your teammates in def as a good example or instantly depending on the level so yeah remove his invulnerability 

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Omnipower said:

yeah thats the main issue with ash we sit there and watch the ones that spam it takes ages to kill majority of the times one enemy; someone said it best they prolong the lives of some high priority targets, toxic ancients, that slowly kill your teammates in def as a good example or instantly depending on the level so yeah remove his invulnerability 

Ouch, that's a fair point. Didnt think about actually prolonging the lives of enemies targeted, or selected. That's an issue that needs to go. Seconds can make a difference at higher levels...

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Ouch, that's a fair point. Didnt think about actually prolonging the lives of enemies targeted, or selected. That's an issue that needs to go. Seconds can make a difference at higher levels...

I just thought of something. What if we changed Bladestorm to be an AOE that stays for a set duration on a specific area. Any enemy that enters is targeted by the clones and attacked. Like an actual storm.

But then you won't be (technically) taking part in the ability, so you can't see the cool animations.

[GinKenshin]

fun is a subjective thing. other people may not find it fun. so I don't think this is a good 'FOR' argument 

also, what made you think DE will come up with an ability less related to ash's theme than BS? 

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Kenshin98 said:

fun is a subjective thing. other people may not find it fun. so I don't think this is a good 'FOR' argument 

also, what made you think DE will come up with an ability less related to ash's theme than BS? 

Fun is entirely subjective. I get that. And I dont necessarily think they will come up with something worse, or unrelated. They did great on Frost and pretty darned good on Volt. Saryn...not so much, and Mag, well, I never liked that one anyway. 

So yeah...there's a chance what they come up with will be fun as Hek. (The Vaykor kind, not that awful boss). Not saying otherwise.

I merely wanted to have a conversation about the matter.

[MokutoBunshi]

"

Let us calmly, in the manner of mature adults, assess the situation.

"

I for one do not find it fun.

Does it need change? Yes.

 

]\'[

[Camelslayer]

The difference between Bladestorm and every other ult in the game is other ults can actually be resisted and aren't perfect in every single situation.

Bladestorm, using a level 30 Ash with no Power Strength, does 2000 Finisher damage- which bypasses all resistances, armor, and shields. Old Miasma couldn't even do that.

If there's one change that needs made, it's to change it to Slash damage. Problem solved. Not as broken anymore. 
Bleed procs could use a minor rework so that Moas and Rollers don't bleed (because bleeding robots make zero sense, hilarious as it is), but otherwise, just change Finisher damage (or better yet, remove Finisher damage from the game completely). Damage types that bypass all resistances in a game are poor game design, and I can't name a single game where it's actually been done right.

[shoopypit]

7 minutes ago, Camelslayer said:

The difference between Bladestorm and every other ult in the game is other ults can actually be resisted and aren't perfect in every single situation.

Bladestorm, using a level 30 Ash with no Power Strength, does 2000 Finisher damage- which bypasses all resistances, armor, and shields. Old Miasma couldn't even do that.

If there's one change that needs made, it's to change it to Slash damage. Problem solved. Not as broken anymore. 
Bleed procs could use a minor rework so that Moas and Rollers don't bleed (because bleeding robots make zero sense, hilarious as it is), but otherwise, just change Finisher damage (or better yet, remove Finisher damage from the game completely). Damage types that bypass all resistances in a game are poor game design, and I can't name a single game where it's actually been done right.

then it's less useful and still not fun. a whole rework needs done not just change a couple little things.

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

8 minutes ago, Camelslayer said:

Bleed procs could use a minor rework so that Moas and Rollers don't bleed (because bleeding robots make zero sense, hilarious as it is)

I'm pretty sure MOAs are biomechanical.

[Camelslayer]

2 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

then it's less useful and still not fun. a whole rework needs done not just change a couple little things.

Of course it's less useful. Nothing will ever be as useful as a damage type that bypasses literally everything and goes straight to health.
I'm not saying that there aren't other things that need changing. Just bare minimum, make it less stupid OP. Probably remove Finisher damage altogether because it makes no sense.

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Woofsie said:

I'm pretty sure MOAs are biomechanical.

They could be, but I don't know of anything that ever verified that they were.

[Misgenesis]

Weird to see you defending BS.

Yes, efficiency/EV/pads/EO enable ability spam (and thats a problem), many powerful ults are spammable thanks to those but no other is as efficient as Bladestorm.

Its arguably the best damage ult with Maim and Peacemaker just below it when it comes to efficient use. Maim requires setup and at higher levels its harder and youre vulnerable. Peacemaker needs to be aimed and refreshed if you want to hit more than one enemy. Its also VERY inefficient even at 175%.

The problem isnt necessarily the damage but the fact that it requires little to no setup. Keep the damage for all i care, it just should NOT do it at the press of a button.

No more abilities that play the game for you.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Misgenesis

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

7 minutes ago, Camelslayer said:

Probably remove Finisher damage altogether because it makes no sense.

It does. You're aiming for week points. Chinks in armor, gaps not covered by shields. Finisher attacks utilize these weaknesses to deal damage directly to health.

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, Mineeden said:

How is pressing 4 fun?

If pressing 4 wasn't fun there would be no ultimates in Warframe. So yes, pressing 4 is fun...to a point. it becomes unfun when it's literally the only thing you do and it starts stealing gameplay from other players.

But yes, pressing 4 is fun.

[-CLM-Joker]

Devs clearly stated that changes will be made in order to make it more interesting and not just sitting on a spot, aiming and pressing 4.

They also said that it will be similar to ember's WoF, and i'm totally in, as long as they keep the finisher damage, because it should fit the original theme of the assassin and it's one of the few ways to complete high-end level mission with damage resistance enemies.

[Hail_Cobras]

I personally fell that Ash's blades storm needs a bit of a rework, kind of how Mesa got a rework for her ult. It doesn't feel interactive, and I find it boring to just press 4 and watch everything in the room die from a janky camera angle with some of the stabbings not even connecting to their target. And while there are other room nukes, they feel like they have a little more interaction or gimmicks to them, such as Equinox's day form where you have to build it up and unleash it as one devastating blow killing everything, and various other frames like nova where you have to at least use your powers together to kill everything. It also feels like ash's other abilities are ignored by players who only use him for his ult to cheese enemies in high level missions. So in my personal opinion, Blade Storm does need a rework.