It's time: Four vaults per Derelict

[Replacement]

With no good reason (cats aren't a good enough reason) to go to Derelicts, it's really time to implement something I've thought DE should do for a long time:

The time is now.  The children are our future.  We have to blow up the moon give each Derelict 4 vaults. 

Vault grinding has driven 3 of my friends away from this game (out of 4).  And that was when a Survival could at least net you a prime part!

Think about it: the current design is to promote running 4-man teams so you can cover all 4 possibilities.  If you increase the vault count to 4, you still encourage a full team with coordinated key decisions.  But now you feel less like drinking.

If you agree, I implore you to post and have your voice heard.  A community that only talks about controversial topics (those that the playerbase is split on) ignores issues everyone agrees on that DE needs to be aware of.

EDIT: since there was some confusion.  Yes, this means bringing 4 keys and scouring the stage can result in up to 4 corrupted mods.  My supply of Spoiled Strikes and Tainted Clips will go up 4-fold.

As mentioned by @Xekrin, it's far more likely to have up to 4 vaults.  I'm ok with this.  

Edited August 10, 2016 by Replacement

[-CM-ToxicTaco]

imo it's just a vine. the current system is good as is

[Xekrin]

9 minutes ago, Replacement said:

If you agree, I implore you to post and have your voice heard.

With the rarities of corrupted mods I tend to agree, but I don't think it should be a static 4.  Perhaps 1 common, 2 uncommon, 3 rare, 4 very rare per mission.  So there is some chance of having 4 vaults and mostly get at least 2 vaults sometimes 1 or 3.

[Mutt2679]

There is more of a reason to go to the derelict other than vaults....You can come out with a fair number of relics. 

If your friends quit because they think the vaults are grindy..... they didn't stand a chance in this game. The vaults are easy to find and the drop rates for even the rare ones are reasonable.

Plus if we are implementing the fissure system, wouldn't that mean we'd only get a choice of one of the corrupted mods? I'd rather have a squad use a single derelict key and a single dragon and come out with 1 corrupted mod, then have 1 key be used, 4 dragon keys, and still come out with 1 corrupted mod

Edited August 10, 2016 by Mutt2679

[Trase-Kor]

 

35 minutes ago, Mutt2679 said:

Plus if we are implementing the fissure system,

That isn't at all what was said. 4 vaults. Each vault gets a key and gives a reward. Solo players don't have to rely on RNG to get a vault that matches their key. More players bringing keys means more open vaults. He said nothing about changing the vaults themselves - so each one gives it's own reward. The implication left unsaid is that each vault would match a different key.

It's a time-saving measure which keeps the cost in Dragon Keys. Dragon Keys now take longer to get since they cost void traces now. Fair trade.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Trase-Kor
Clarification

[Mutt2679]

2 minutes ago, Trase-Kor said:

That isn't at all what he said. 4 vaults. Each vault gets a key and gives a reward.

I understand that, but can you see DE giving it to us any other way then that? Why would they have a fissure squad spend 4 relics for 1 prime part, and have a derelict squad spend 4 keys for 4 corrupted mods? 

Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but corrupted mod value would tank. They would completely lose their rarity. 

The derelict is good as is imo. It's not too hard to get the mod you are looking for if you don't mind spending the time to do it.

[Replacement]

23 minutes ago, Mutt2679 said:

I understand that, but can you see DE giving it to us any other way then that? Why would they have a fissure squad spend 4 relics for 1 prime part, and have a derelict squad spend 4 keys for 4 corrupted mods? 

Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but corrupted mod value would tank. They would completely lose their rarity. 

The derelict is good as is imo. It's not too hard to get the mod you are looking for if you don't mind spending the time to do it.

How many is a respectable amount?  100?  One hundred runs?  Is that good?  Because I've done about a hundred, and I'm still missing nine.

Why would anyone want more grind in a game where we already have so much grind elsewhere?  At least everywhere else, I can convince people to actually come with me.  But no one wants Burdened Magazine number 7.  It's not fun. 

@Xekrin Up to 4 would also be good, assuming it was impossible to get repeats.   If it averages out to like 2.2 mods/run, that would be pretty nice.

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Replacement

[Xekrin]

21 minutes ago, Replacement said:

The derelict is good as is imo.

Also keep in mind that is requires 10 void traces now to build dragon keys, which makes it more grindy than before where you could just throw away a T1defense key every time you needed on.  Void traces are pretty valuable, more so really than the relic used to generate them and are gained in random quantities.  

I realize there are ways to game the system with kavats or whatever but regardless that makes them not as expendable as what we used before.  Perhaps when void traces drop "in" the void, this will remove some of their value.

[Mutt2679]

40 minutes ago, Replacement said:

How many is a respectable amount?  100?  One hundred runs?  Is that good?  Because I've done about a hundred, and I'm still missing nine.

Why would anyone want more grind in a game where we already have so much grind elsewhere?  At least everywhere else, I can convince people to actually come with me.  But no one wants Burdened Magazine number 7.  It's not fun. 

 

so you'd rather put in a 1/4 of the effort? You've just had bad RNG my friend. We all hit the RNG wall occasionally. 

Why would you want to play this game if you don't enjoy the grind? That's literally all this game is.... And if you can't find people to go with, might I recommend a new clan? A few of my guys run them quite a bit.


@Xekrin Yes, it costs 10 trace, but you don't spend that key every time you go in. Out of a run of 10 last night, I spent 3 extinguished keys. 30 trace for 10 runs isn't unreasonable. I do however, agree that trace should drop somewhere else as well. And with the possibility of not having that drop a random number of them. Harder missions should yield more trace. The void would be an awesome place for it.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Mutt2679

[Xekrin]

1 minute ago, Mutt2679 said:

The void would be an awesome place for it.

It would brought up on a devstream a while back and steve agreed it was a great idea.  I'm honestly surprised they were added by now.  They are probably working out how best to distribute them as drops.  It will likely happen soon though.

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, Mutt2679 said:

Why would you want to play this game if you don't enjoy the grind? That's literally all this game is....

I'd like to think I play it to be a magical space ninja killing hordes with an action system that utilizes good build customization and a structure that rewards playing multiple characters and several gear load outs.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Replacement

[Mutt2679]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

I'd like to think I play it to be a magical space ninja killing hordes with character customization and a structure that rewards playing multiple characters and several gear load outs.

You are correct, we are magical space ninjas killing hordes. The story missions pretty much end there though (with an exception of the quests and codex (which the codex you also have to grind for)).  The second you step in your liset most every mission you go into is some sort of farm/grind mission. You are either leveling your gear, grinding gear/mods/resources, upgrading mods, stockpiling some kind of resource or some sort of mix of all that. (Not saying that is a bad thing in anyway). Grinding is a huge part of this game and you are lying to yourself if you think it isn't

I have to clarify, I do love this game. I have a ton of hours into it and have dumped quite a bit of money into it to support DE for providing me with a gaming experience I have enjoyed a ton. I'm one who spent every night for a month grinding for banshee back when she dropped a defense in the node xini without complaint.  

IMO Derelict vaults are easy enough as is. They take little to no time to complete, and the drop rate is on par with the rarity of the mods. If all else fails, there is always a way to get that mod that is eluding you. You can sell the extra corrupted mods you got with your 100 runs on trade chat and buy what you are missing with that plat. I've played the vaults enough to know there's no way you didn't get some rare mods from 100 runs.

All that said, I do wish you luck. I just don't see any problem with leaving the vaults as is. 

[Trase-Kor]

20 hours ago, Mutt2679 said:

I understand that, but can you see DE giving it to us any other way then that? 

Yes. I can't see DE do it the way you're saying they would without a massive improvement to our ability to get the mods. You seem to think spending four relics to choose a reward is worse than the previous system. Even without the ability to shift the drop chances with trace: this is a better system for the player.

20 hours ago, Mutt2679 said:

Why would they have a fissure squad spend 4 relics for 1 prime part, and have a derelict squad spend 4 keys for 4 corrupted mods? 

Because keys take longer to acquire. You need to actually spend a relic for the trace to get a key and then spend the trace that you would need for upgrading another relic. Trace is more valuable than most of the relics/old void keys we would have spent by a country mile.

Relics are being made easier to acquire, while keys now require an extra step. Before we could have spent one of our hundreds of T1 keys without a second thought. Now it's easy to run out of trace before building more keys, since you're probably trying to save it to upgrade a few relics.

20 hours ago, Mutt2679 said:

Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but corrupted mod value would tank. They would completely lose their rarity. 

That's never seemed to be a major concern for DE in the past. I think it unlikely it'll be a deciding factor here. Players will always find something new to charge absurd amounts of plat for.

[Mutt2679]

26 minutes ago, Trase-Kor said:

Yes. I can't see DE do it the way you're saying they would without a massive improvement to our ability to get the mods. You seem to think spending four relics to choose a reward is worse than the previous system. Even without the ability to shift the drop chances with trace: this is a better system for the player.

No I don't think that, I have enjoyed both systems. It's much easier to get the rare part now. I loved the endless missions in the void with prime parts in the old system, and I have enjoyed having the choice in the new system. I'm saying I can't see why DE would make us spend 4 relics (as a squad) and get 1 prime part, but spend 4 dragon keys and get 4 corrupted mods. I wasn't saying the fissure system is a bad thing, just pointing out that IF 4 vaults was implemented, it would probably be implemented more like the fissure runs, 4 dragon keys for 1 mod. I can't see DE changing the corrupted mod system giving us 4 mods per run without increasing the difficulty, time and/or cost it takes to get those mods. These mods are easy to get compared to some of the other stuff in the game. I'm not saying it doesn't require a bit of time, but it is completely reasonable. it takes very little time to run a mission and the rare mods drop rate is not insanely low. 
 

32 minutes ago, Trase-Kor said:

Because keys take longer to acquire. You need to actually spend a relic for the trace to get a key and then spend the trace that you would need for upgrading another relic. Trace is more valuable than most of the relics/old void keys we would have spent by a country mile.

Relics are being made easier to acquire, while keys now require an extra step. Before we could have spent one of our hundreds of T1 keys without a second thought. Now it's easy to run out of trace before building more keys, since you're probably trying to save it to upgrade a few relics.

You're going to be farming fissures for prime parts anyways.... the cost is 10 trace for a key. I agree trace is valuable, but it is not hard to get and the cost to make the key is low. 1 fissure run for a key is all it takes (3-5 minutes of time.) If you are running fissure missions anyways for prime parts 10 trace isn't that much and you'll be getting more than one run off of a single dragon key.   On average I come out with 15-20 trace per run. (occasionally less, occasionally more). You can passively get trace for a key, without it hurting too badly.. Also you keep the key unless it unlocks the door. As I said earlier, out of 10 runs, I used 3 keys. so 30 trace nets me 10 corrupted mods. That is very reasonable. 

42 minutes ago, Trase-Kor said:

That's never seemed to be a major concern for DE in the past. I think it unlikely it'll be a deciding factor here. Players will always find something new to charge absurd amounts of plat for.

Just pointing out a negative aspect of having getting 4 corrupted mods from 5 minutes of game play. or if you include your trace farm, 10 minutes of game play. Having no rare stuff in the game would make for a pretty boring game. And Corrupted and syndicate mods are the only thing that has stayed at a pretty much flat rate without much flux in trade since they were released.

[Tsunero]

Agreed, there are just too many mods now. 4 vaults would even give one guaranteed  drop for solo players too. It's a win-win for everyone.

[(XBOX)Bortis Badtouch]

On 8/10/2016 at 0:29 PM, Mutt2679 said:

I understand that, but can you see DE giving it to us any other way then that? Why would they have a fissure squad spend 4 relics for 1 prime part, and have a derelict squad spend 4 keys for 4 corrupted mods? 

Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but corrupted mod value would tank. They would completely lose their rarity. 

The derelict is good as is imo. It's not too hard to get the mod you are looking for if you don't mind spending the time to do it.

yes, the price of the corrupted mods would tank, they are at best wort maybe 20 for blind rage and all the others like it are lower than that, i like this idea but people who trade in this game wont, while i see your point i have probably run over 100 vault runs and have not gotten blind rage, yes say the word "bad rng" OP i like your idea, i think it would be awesome, as for trade chat, oh well, find something else to trade, plenty of other items in the game that fetch far beyond 20p

[Chipputer]

I would almost prefer that they make Corrupted Relics that you can get corrupted mods from than continue with the vault system. Vaults never made sense to me-- why are they in Derelicts but nowhere to be found in regular void towers?

I can see the merit in the idea that you get 4 vaults per run, though. The only issue I have with it is the idea of getting 4 mods per run, given how powerful corrupted mods make you and their impact on the trade market, would have a negative impact on the player driven economy and would also flood the game with mods that basically enable easy mode for many squad makeups.

If they gave you 4 random items per run with one guaranteed mod and then filled the item pool with useful items like Forma, Nitain, Void Traces, etc*, then I could get behind the idea of giving you 4 chances for corrupted mods per party with absolutely no hesitation.

 

 

*Imagine if you had a very low chance of receiving a vaulted relic from the Derelict Vaults. I'm talking very low-- almost rare enough that you wouldn't believe your friends if they told you they obtained one.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Chipputer

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Right now you're punished for not having a full team. You basically want this to be changed to being rewarded FOR bringing a full team.

Won't happen. Chinese don't operate like that.

All I want is statue of pc exclusive excalibur prime to be replaced with something that exists on console. Even Umbra excalibur - after it's release. 

[Mutt2679]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Bortis Badtouch said:

yes, the price of the corrupted mods would tank, they are at best wort maybe 20 for blind rage and all the others like it are lower than that, i like this idea but people who trade in this game wont, while i see your point i have probably run over 100 vault runs and have not gotten blind rage, yes say the word "bad rng" OP i like your idea, i think it would be awesome, as for trade chat, oh well, find something else to trade, plenty of other items in the game that fetch far beyond 20p

I wasn't meaning value as in plat, sorry, bad choice of wording on my part. I don't make much plat off of vault runs. None of the mods would be rare at that point was what I was meaning by value.4 corrupted mods per run is a lot of reward for not a lot of work. I've gone through the same pain with RNG, including these runs. but in the same breath, without RNG, we wouldn't have the game. Changing the drop tables might be a fairer alternative to 4 mods per run

Edited August 12, 2016 by Mutt2679

[Mutt2679]

55 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

If they gave you 4 random items per run with one guaranteed mod and then filled the item pool with useful items like Forma, Nitain, Void Traces, etc*, then I could get behind the idea of giving you 4 chances for corrupted mods per party with absolutely no hesitation.

Interesting idea, forma, nitain and trace would be nice, but I don't really like the idea of diluting the drop tables. That was one of the problems we had in the old void system. The more parts you have in the drop tables, the less of a chance you have to get the mod you are looking for.

[Chipputer]

8 minutes ago, Mutt2679 said:

Interesting idea, forma, nitain and trace would be nice, but I don't really like the idea of diluting the drop tables. That was one of the problems we had in the old void system. The more parts you have in the drop tables, the less of a chance you have to get the mod you are looking for.

One guaranteed mod would be the way they alleviate the dilution. Unless you make all 4 vaults give mods at a 100% rate (which carries very real consequences related to flooding the game with many more corrupted mods all at once), the only other alternative, besides what I've suggested, is to just simply make it have a chance of giving nothing. 1 mod with 3 chances at either a mod or nothing would be awful.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Chipputer

[(XBOX)Bortis Badtouch]

25 minutes ago, Mutt2679 said:

I wasn't meaning value as in plat, sorry, bad choice of wording on my part. I don't make much plat off of vault runs. None of the mods would be rare at that point was what I was meaning by value.4 corrupted mods per run is a lot of reward for not a lot of work. I've gone through the same pain with RNG, including these runs. but in the same breath, without RNG, we wouldn't have the game. Changing the drop tables might be a fairer alternative to 4 mods per run

i have tried for months to grab it on and off and i dont care about it anymore, this game is cruel, lessening the time it takes for me to a lower amount (not over 100 tries in the derelict) is a major improvement, almost as hard as getting saryn prime (we are still on the old system) im all for change, especially when it comes to this crap

[Mutt2679]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

One guaranteed mod would be the way they alleviate the dilution. Unless you make all 4 vaults give mods at a 100% rate (which carries very real consequences related to flooding the game with many more corrupted mods all at once), the only other alternative, besides what I've suggested, is to just simply make it have a chance of giving nothing. 1 mod with 3 chances at either a mod or nothing would be awful.

I don't see the benefit. it'd be quicker to do the one vault and go back in (as is now). why open up 3 vaults if there is only a chance to get one mod? It'd make the rng worse because you'd spend more time looking for mods? unless I am misunderstanding 

[DSpite]

On 11/08/2016 at 2:15 AM, Replacement said:

With no good reason (cats aren't a good enough reason) to go to Derelicts, it's really time to implement something I've thought DE should do for a long time:

The time is now.  The children are our future.  We have to blow up the moon give each Derelict 4 vaults. 

Vault grinding has driven 3 of my friends away from this game (out of 4).  And that was when a Survival could at least net you a prime part!

Think about it: the current design is to promote running 4-man teams so you can cover all 4 possibilities.  If you increase the vault count to 4, you still encourage a full team with coordinated key decisions.  But now you feel less like drinking.

If you agree, I implore you to post and have your voice heard.  A community that only talks about controversial topics (those that the playerbase is split on) ignores issues everyone agrees on that DE needs to be aware of.

EDIT: since there was some confusion.  Yes, this means bringing 4 keys and scouring the stage can result in up to 4 corrupted mods.  My supply of Spoiled Strikes and Tainted Clips will go up 4-fold.

As mentioned by @Xekrin, it's far more likely to have up to 4 vaults.  I'm ok with this.  

"Vault Grinding" did not drive anyone away. The fact that your friends "forced" themselves into an activity they did not enjoy did. If they did not enjoy going Vault hunting then WHY did they do it? Not having Vault Mods does NOT make the game unplayable.

This is just plain greed. No game should just make things trivial to obtain, and your requests makes it trivial. Might as well just make the MODs available for free - because they practically will be on the market - after people start running vaults and massive amounts of them are floating everywhere.

This is NOT a game where you constantly need MODs. Once you have one, you never EVER need one again. A tailored team could get all the Vault Mods they need in a day, and never have to do it again. What grind? Is this a complaint that you are missing 1-2 from having them all and are getting repeats? Are you telling me you can't swap 10 other duplicates for the single one you are missing with another person?

This is just being overly dramatic.

[Replacement]

5 hours ago, DSpite said:

"Vault Grinding" did not drive anyone away. The fact that your friends "forced" themselves into an activity they did not enjoy did. If they did not enjoy going Vault hunting then WHY did they do it? Not having Vault Mods does NOT make the game unplayable.

This is just plain greed. No game should just make things trivial to obtain, and your requests makes it trivial. Might as well just make the MODs available for free - because they practically will be on the market - after people start running vaults and massive amounts of them are floating everywhere.

This is NOT a game where you constantly need MODs. Once you have one, you never EVER need one again. A tailored team could get all the Vault Mods they need in a day, and never have to do it again. What grind? Is this a complaint that you are missing 1-2 from having them all and are getting repeats? Are you telling me you can't swap 10 other duplicates for the single one you are missing with another person?

This is just being overly dramatic.

Neat.  I already posted that I'm missing nine, but you already have your mind made up so you don't care what I have to say.

Derelicts are languishing so there's no other reason to go there.  Hence, I would think you would want to save your grinding for content that's actively being developed.  At least sorties change every day.  But hey, enjoy your grind.

And not everyone enjoys spamming trade chat or spending all their time watching trade chat.

EDIT: Ok I just looked back at this thread.  So far we have 3 or 4 dissenting voices, with Mutt contributing 8 of 24 posts, compared to my 4 (and I'm the OP).  I was about to give up on this thread, but this is the definition of a vocal minority.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Replacement