How to Solve the Issues with Nullifiers, "Draco-style" Gameplay, and Overpowered Players Simultaneously

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i applaud the OP for his/her efforts to conceptualize a solution for what to me is warframes most pressing problem. so needless to say i agree with its underlying thoughts 100%, i can't really comment on the suggestions themselves tho as they are rather complex and i feel i'd have to experience them first hand ingame.

i understand some people's concerns about our survivability in endgame content without the ability to perma stunlock maps, of course this would have to be adressed along the way, same with enemy scaling etc. imo basically armor should be a much more effective stat for us and less for the grineer. :=) (this would probably buff unairu, too, at the same time... which would certainly be warranted).

1 hour ago, DSpite said:

For example, Frost 1 ability is not "one-quarter" as powerful as his 4, yet costs 25 to the Ult 100 energy. Err, what?

this so much! i tried to make the very same point during various balance discussions in recent past. one of the big pros of the OPs solution would be that it adresses exactly that by splitting neccessities for "lesser" skills and ults entirely. that way "flavour" for the respective frames would be preserved, too, without having unlimited access to cheese.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 minutes ago, ashrah said:

warframe is farming simulator anyway...ppl will alwayes find wayes how to cheese anything....game is to have fun.......look at borderlands 2 u have casual play and u have op lvls where u are very strong but enemy is strong to u have all tools to find wayes how to cheese...

Okay. I think that making Warframe itself more engaging to play would help it transcend the "farming simulator" status and facilitate the game being about fun. Borderlands 2 is also a single-player game with MP functionality, not a multiplayer online game. There's more leeway with loot distribution when it's not monetized so heavily.

 

6 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

What I was playing at is the fact that abilities have vastly varying costs and durations, even among the lower echelons of powers. Also of interest is that some powers can be refreshed and some can't be.

Going back to Mirage, we have 3 useful abilities which could all be quite reasonably based in Saturated energy. It seems as though at least one of them should use Flux instead, but here we run into problems. HoM isn't recastable, which means Fireball wins on energy generation by a mile. Eclipse IS recastable and costs 75, which makes it very superior to Fireball. Prism has a very long cast animation and a drain, which make it have more interesting problems.

Okay, but this isn't insurmountable. If they're going to go around changing all of the abilities to use different types of energy, they may as well make sure they function with said energy. 

I think that this issue could be partially (and in sum wholly) addressed with a couple of different strategies:

1. Add mechanics to powers where they're needed. HoM isn't recastable? Make it recastable. Alter ability costs as necessary.

2. Keep in mind that Warframes have different energy needs - Ember is going to be a lot thirstier than Mirage, for example - and set up their kits accordingly. 

11 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Easy. Orokin harnessed Void energy, and Primes have authorization to drain their batteries dry.

Works for me.

12 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I certainly agree.

Note that I said

The emphasis is, unsurprisingly, mine. Erm. Why is quoting yourself even a thing?

Anyways, I think WoF is too strong to be Flux while simultaneously too weak to be Saturated. I suppose you could make the initial activation Saturated, with it locking down your Flux regen while active, but that just makes things even more complicated than before...

Why not just grant energy directly for doing parkour, then? Or even shooting? Having two different "kinds" of abilities, some of which "pay" you to use them, seems a little weird.

So make WoF either weak enough or strong enough to fit into either category. They can also play around with Ember's available flux pool vs saturated pool. Caster types should definitely have more flux to play with.

As for why not just grant energy directly like that... well... I think it should be tied to combat, and you'll notice I did mention generating energy by shooting through the use of mods. The rate at which some guns would be able to generate ought to warrant a mod slot... especially if they're trying to work away from mandatory mods. You've built a frame around generating energy on its own? Use that slot on something else. Want to build your frame differently? Put it on your gun. 

That's actually a huge foundational aspect of my system: You can choose where to put your energy generation - on your Warframe or on your weapons... or both. Parkour is used so regularly that the gains would have to be miniscule, and I can't see the pacing of that working out very well.

[TheTundraTerror]

4 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

People will deny it, but we are too powerful

What if I told you that's there's nothing wrong with that? Would it blow your mind that killing loads of mooks while being a god can be kind of fun? Now, maybe if the missions weren't drop dead boring...

Besides, this game is all about farming resources to get weapons that you level to get more resources to get weapons to level. Making it so that you have to work for every single kill literally goes against the core gameplay loop.

If you want a challenge, here's an idea: play another game.

Edited August 21, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

Now, maybe if the missions weren't drop dead boring...

they're boring because they're too easy / basically skippable by pressing single buttons. (imo).

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, TheTundraTerror said:

What if I told you that's there's nothing wrong with that? Would it blow your mind that killing loads of mooks while being a god can be kind of fun? Now, maybe if the missions weren't drop dead boring...

Oh, please. Nobody is denying the fun of being overpowered. However... that fun is short-lived.

What if I told you... that missions were boring because they don't require any thought or carry much risk of failure? What if I told you that was because we were too powerful and wiped the floor with everything that wasn't cheese?

What if I told you that they can't really come up with interesting missions featuring interesting enemies when enemies don't last long enough on screen to do anything interesting... because we are too powerful?

The missions being drop-dead boring goes hand-in-hand with being too powerful.

To be clear, I think it would be best if there were a mix of hapless mook enemies that we could kill en-masse (preserving that warrior-god feel) with some less-hapless-mook enemies that we can't simply steamroll with LMB (providing that engagement that isn't drop-dead boring). The only thing is we can't have less-hapless mooks that actually do anything if we preserve the level of power currently at our fingertips. 

Well... strictly speaking all we need to do is have less unrestricted access to said power. The enemy needs a chance to fight back.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

To be clear, I think it would be best if there were a mix of hapless mook enemies that we could kill en-masse (preserving that warrior-god feel) with some less-hapless-mook enemies that we can't simply steamroll with LMB (providing that engagement that isn't drop-dead boring).

yeah, that's basically my vision, too. teamplay would revolve around situations like some members holding hordes of trash mobs in check while others focus on priority targets etc. (single target dps should become more important that way, too, i'm looking at snipers) ... i also hope some rathuum will bleed over to the maingame in that regard. i mean more sophisticated AI behaviour for special units.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, DSpite said:

What I don't understand about ability costs is this:

For example, Frost 1 ability is not "one-quarter" as powerful as his 4, yet costs 25 to the Ult 100 energy. Err, what?

Our small abilities should the equivalent of a secondary weapon in many cases, and should complement directly into our fights, and our ultimates should be "Death Blossom", something you really need to consider casting before doing so, and not "pick up energy orb, cast instantly".

People that think "but then we can't kill the hundreds of units attacking at once", well, the point is, we would not have the same enemy density or mechanics, they would be tailored for the fact that we can't spam Ults anymore, that's the point, and the Nullifiers would not even need to exist.
 

Yes! Absolutely!

It's precisely for that reason that channeling is delegated to Life Strike. Simple limited-use abilities like Freeze should be tied to a more easily renewable source of energy imo. 

I think we should not attempt to alter enemy density too much one way or the other. It shouldn't be unreasonable to have relative non-threat enemies grouped with legitimate-threat enemies. I saw your thread about not being able to see because of the gratuitous screen-clutter most battles entail and I agree that should be addressed... but I think limiting some of the flashier powers more effectively would go a long way toward that goal.

Still, enemy density, damage, and capabilities would definitely need to be tailored to the fact that we can't completely incapacitate indefinitely anymore. I think it's tragic that they were tailored around the fact that we currently are able to do that. People wonder why scaling is so broken... it's because enemies get at most a split-second to hurt us, and they need to actually be able to hurt us in that split-second. 

[achromos]

The only issue with nullifiers is that they drastically reduce the effectiveness of anything other then bullet hoses.  Eating summons, and resetting buffs [if you play chroma] is horribly annoying and would be better if the summons were just temp banished and the buffs were deactivated for the duration of time spent in the bubble.

 

I however enjoy those moments where I mow down leagues of enemies, I enjoy the gameplay of how warframe is now.

 

I wouldn't like any change to this system of powers, though some of the power could stand to be either stronger or given better utility.

 

There are other games, that have the gamestyle you and people like you would probably like.  Why ruin everyone elses fun?

Edited August 21, 2016 by achromos

[TheTundraTerror]

19 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

they're boring because they're too easy / basically skippable by pressing single buttons. (imo).

No, they're boring because they're no engaging and they're not engaging because there's very little variety.

19 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

What if I told you... that missions were boring because they don't require any thought or carry much risk of failure? What if I told you that was because we were too powerful and wiped the floor with everything that wasn't cheese?

What if I told you... that's part of what makes Warframe... Warframe?

19 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

What if I told you that they can't really come up with interesting missions featuring interesting enemies when enemies don't last long enough on screen to do anything interesting... because we are too powerful?

Maybe because anything that does last long enough to survive on the screen for more than 3 seconds tends to be total bee ess mobs (Bombards with inordinate amounts of armour and homing rockets, Nullifiers with school yard level "cape of invincible to everything", Scorches with idiot levels of DPS). Maybe if missions didn't involve you standing around playing grab arse with one another for long periods of time (mobile defense, defense, excavation, survival if you wanted decent amount of spawns) they would be more enthralling. But what do I know, I only had almost 1000 hours in PD2 and loved every minute. But maybe that's because the game had thumping jams.

All that aside, the game is a grinding simulator. Than again, I don't think even DE knows what kind of game they're going for.

Edited August 21, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, achromos said:

The only issue with nullifiers is that they drastically reduce the effectiveness of anything other then bullet hoses.  Eating summons, and resetting buffs [if you play chroma] is horribly annoying and would be better if the summons were just temp banished and the buffs were deactivated for the duration of time spent in the bubble.

I however enjoy those moments where I mow down leagues of enemies, I enjoy the gameplay of how warframe is now.

I wouldn't like any change to this system of powers, though some of the power could stand to be either stronger or given better utility.

Please understand that what I am suggesting would not prevent power-spam entirely, just give the enemies a bit more breathing room to pose a fair threat.

[achromos]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

Please understand that what I am suggesting would not prevent power-spam entirely, just give the enemies a bit more breathing room to pose a fair threat.

Comba, and Scrambus do just fine in my opinion on that end.  Not saying I want every enemy to be like them but the Corpus seem to have a monopoly in being able to pose a fair threat after level 50.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, achromos said:

Comba, and Scrambus do just fine in my opinion on that end.  Not saying I want every enemy to be like them but the Corpus seem to have a monopoly in being able to pose a fair threat after level 50.

I disagree, in that Comba and Scrambus still are a hard-lockdown of ability use... especially when they can easily overlap with higher spawn rates at higher levels. They are, imo, worse than nullies in that they are harder to visually distinguish as a threat and there is zero indication of how much of an area their influence affects.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

No, they're boring because they're no engaging and they're not engaging because there's very little variety.

What if I told you... that's part of what makes Warframe... Warframe?

Maybe because anything that does last long enough to survive on the screen for more than 3 seconds tends to be total bee ess mobs (Bombards with inordinate amounts of armour and homing rockets, Nullifiers with school yard level "cape of invincible to everything", Scorches with idiot levels of DPS). Maybe if missions didn't involve you standing around playing grab arse with one another for long periods of time (mobile defense, defense, excavation, survival if you wanted decent amount of spawns) they would be more enthralling. But what do I know, I only had almost 1000 hours in PD2 and loved every minute. But maybe that's because the game had thumping jams.

All that aside, the game is a grinding simulator.

1. And now we're back to the "don't try to change the status quo" non-argument. That's the point of feedback. Instigating change.

2. It's kind of hard to create engaging gameplay and variety when players can't be fairly challenged (which happens when players are OP.

3. If you think missions not requiring thought is what makes Warframe Warframe, your complaint is pointless. You're complaining about boring missions not requiring thought. Following your logic, you're complaining that Warframe is Warframe. Kay.

4. See, we get BS enemies because that's the only thing that can threaten us. If an enemy has 0.1 seconds to attack us when the CC slips for a split-second, they have to be able to hurt us in those 0.1 seconds. That's why enemies have stupid levels of DPS and cheesy abilities like rivers of homing rockets. Nothing else can touch us.

5. Warframe may be a grinding simulator to you, but as DE themselves have said, you should stop trying to label the game as one thing or another just to suit the purposes of your argument. Do you say "grinding simulator" as a compliment? Or could it stand to be changed for the better? Hm... Gods forbid anybody try to add a bit of gameplay depth so that it's more than just a grinding simulator...

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

7 minutes ago, achromos said:

Why ruin everyone elses fun?

1. i'm fairly sure it's not everyone elses idea of fun, tho.

2. i'm also pretty damn sure after an inital phase of omnipresent moaning people would adapt rather quickly and finally appreciate the resulting more engaging gameplay by more meaningful encounters, making teamwork actually matter... i could be wrong of course.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

1. i'm fairly sure it's not everyone elses idea of fun, tho.

2. i'm also pretty damn sure after an inital phase of omnipresent moaning people would adapt rather quickly and finally appreciate the resulting more engaging gameplay by more meaningful encounters, making teamwork actually matter... i could be wrong of course.

Ugh, they edited that in after I replied... I wish there were a more effective way to discourage people from posting those tired, pointless, and dismissive sorts of input.

Come on, people... this is not "us versus them." We're not out to get you and ruin everything you love. It's even more aggravating when you don't bother to fully comprehend what it is you're lashing out at either. Even more importantly... it's not like I don't play other games. However, we're here to talk about Warframe, and giving feedback is about helping Warframe improve. Which means change.

If a system is fine as-is it won't generate any discussion.

[--Q--uaint]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

As for why not just grant energy directly like that... well... I think it should be tied to combat,

Another big issue here is that there's nothing directly combat-y about using powers. You could totally just sit there and Fireball a wall until your eyes fall out. It's really just another form of waiting, but now you're limited in how much and how often you can wait... and the best solution is to just put on a macro that pops a power at a set interval.

This leads down the road of trying to make sure the player isn't just Fireballing a wall for their right to use Fire Blast, which leads to suggestions based on damage or kills, which open other cans of ugly worms. I've been down those roads before, and not liked what I found. If you have a good suggestion on something like that, I'd like to hear it.

6 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The rate at which some guns would be able to generate ought to warrant a mod slot... especially if they're trying to work away from mandatory mods

There's a pretty decent measure of how much you're using a gun and how effectively... damage dealt. But that comes with its own host of problems.

24 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You've built a frame around generating energy on its own? Use that slot on something else. Want to build your frame differently? Put it on your gun. 

That's actually a huge foundational aspect of my system: You can choose where to put your energy generation - on your Warframe or on your weapons... or both

Hmm. I like the tradeoffs implied here, but you didn't really spell that out in the OP. It's an interesting thought, certainly, but I guess I'd have to playtest it to be sure of my thoughts on it.

25 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Parkour is used so regularly that the gains would have to be miniscule, and I can't see the pacing of that working out very well.

IMO, it's just as valid as Fireballing a wall, and has a lot more room for added interest - stringing maneuvers together could improve the regen, or even just base the regen off your velocity (which could even work lore-wise).

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If a system is fine as-is it won't generate any discussion.

Patently false. Humans are nothing if not wildly enamored of producing vacuous frivolity.

[TheTundraTerror]

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

And now we're back to the "don't try to change the status quo" non-argument. That's the point of feedback. Instigating change

It's one thing to change things. But change for the sake of change or, as I often see here, change out of a selfish desire to make the game what you want and damn everyone else isn't always a good thing. If you're going to ask for change, at least understand why you're changing things because change for the sake of change rarely works.

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It's kind of hard to create engaging gameplay and variety when players can't be fairly challenged (which happens when players are OP.

It's also hard to create engaging gameplay when you add mechanics and don't do anything with them. Say... adding the ability to run, jump, and spin around like ninja... and have at least half the missions revolve around games of grab arse. Just saying.

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If you think missions not requiring thought is what makes Warframe Warframe, your complaint is pointless. You're complaining about boring missions not requiring thought. Following your logic, you're complaining that Warframe is Warframe. Kay.

Well, since I didn't make it clear last time, let me make it clear here: feeling like a god with cool powers and even cooler weapons is what makes Warframe Warframe. Remove our powers and you have Gears of Bore.

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

See, we get BS enemies because that's the only thing that can threaten us. If an enemy has 0.1 seconds to attack us when the CC slips for a split-second, they have to be able to hurt us in those 0.1 seconds. That's why enemies have stupid levels of DPS and cheesy abilities like rivers of homing rockets. Nothing else can touch us.

Again, we are supposed to be gods.

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe may be a grinding simulator to you, but as DE themselves have said, you should stop trying to label the game as one thing or another just to suit the purposes of your argument. Do you say "grinding simulator" as a compliment? Or could it stand to be changed for the better? Hm... Gods forbid anybody try to add a bit of gameplay depth so that it's more than just a grinding simulator...

DE can call an apple an orange all they want, but it still tastes like an apple. I don't say "grinding simulator" as a pejorative. I say it as a classifier. If DE wants to add more gameplay depth, maybe they should have more missions that don't revolve around "stand next to thing for long periods of time while staring at your own two useless feet".

I'm done trying to explain myself here. If it doesn't sink into you at this point, nothing will.

Edited August 21, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[DiabolusUrsus]

19 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

It's one thing to change things. But change for the sake of change or, as I often see here, change out of a selfish desire to make the game what you want and damn everyone else isn't always a good thing. If you're going to ask for change, at least understand why you're changing things because change for the sake of change rarely works.

And how would you suggest people comment on how the game should change other than through the lens of their own desires and experiences? That's a nonsensical expectation you've got there, and you're exaggerating the evil of advocating for change. It's also kind of insulting that you would suggest any of the changes I am suggesting here were not made for a reason.

I'm not the one refusing to have a conversation here, so I have to ask why you bothered joining it.

You've got to give me more to go on than "This is the way things are, because I say so, and there's no debating that" if you want a more meaningful response.

Edited August 21, 2016 by DiabolusUrsus

[DiabolusUrsus]

16 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Another big issue here is that there's nothing directly combat-y about using powers. You could totally just sit there and Fireball a wall until your eyes fall out. It's really just another form of waiting, but now you're limited in how much and how often you can wait... and the best solution is to just put on a macro that pops a power at a set interval.

See, that's where I draw the line between "encouraging" people to play a certain way and trying to force them into it. If someone thinks their time is best spent fireballing a wall to cast another power, then they're welcome to do that. The most precious aspect of this proposed system (to me) is that it makes it so that you're not just sitting around waiting for the energy to flow in.

18 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

This leads down the road of trying to make sure the player isn't just Fireballing a wall for their right to use Fire Blast, which leads to suggestions based on damage or kills, which open other cans of ugly worms. I've been down those roads before, and not liked what I found. If you have a good suggestion on something like that, I'd like to hear it.

I think I addressed this with my last comment, but it could be solved with a simple series of checks.

Player in-combat/not in-combat

Damage dealt/Not dealt

Hit/Miss.

There are plenty of possibilities for toying with energy generation. Perhaps it would be better to use a mix of spending flux and regenerating flux based on the above (and similar) conditions. Still, I think trying to micro-manage player options to this degree is a waste of time.

21 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

There's a pretty decent measure of how much you're using a gun and how effectively... damage dealt. But that comes with its own host of problems.

Part of my overarching feedback goal is to provide more gameplay depth. I think that modding should be about opening up different options more than simply improving on existing options. That alone would factor in a lot more "choice" into the system. I think it would be best for guns to generate energy on-hit regardless of damage dealt and scale how much you gain inversely with fire rate.

24 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

IMO, it's just as valid as Fireballing a wall, and has a lot more room for added interest - stringing maneuvers together could improve the regen, or even just base the regen off your velocity (which could even work lore-wise).

Hadn't thought of combo-ing maneuvers, but I'm still leery of the idea that generation could effectively be limited to movement. Perhaps adding this sort of feature as a conditional Exilus mod series? This way people could tailor it to which type of movement they find themselves using more often instead of being shoehorned into the most effective movement combo. I'm all for different means of generation.

28 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Patently false. Humans are nothing if not wildly enamored of producing vacuous frivolity.

Allow me to rephrase: It's not going to generate any significant discussion. At least, not to the point that it is a community-wide hot-topic... which is the point at which things typically actually see change via DE.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

I do love the idea of a new energy system, but I doubt I am ever changing my stance on Nullifiers. EVEN with a new energy system and a new damage system, Nullifiers are an old band-aid. They just need to go, they make no sense in the lore, Combas and Scrambus units do their job just as well and are less frustrating, and Nullifiers, despite being weak, just aren't any fun. Not hard or even a challenge, just not fun

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

I do love the idea of a new energy system, but I doubt I am ever changing my stance on Nullifiers. EVEN with a new energy system and a new damage system, Nullifiers are an old band-aid. They just need to go, they make no sense in the lore, Combas and Scrambus units do their job just as well and are less frustrating, and Nullifiers, despite being weak, just aren't any fun. Not hard or even a challenge, just not fun

Personally, I think it is important for the enemies to have some sort of "blanket" shield effect to protect them from AOE wipes (though these shields should admittedly be a lot less prevalent). It's also not too hard to imagine that the enemy factions would be researching some way to counteract our eldritch powers. DE just needs to explain the mechanics of how they succeed for it to be acceptable lore-wise imo. Salad is a good candidate for that, and the Grineer can just steal Corpus tech for all I care.

That said, I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken to see Nullifiers just go.

[Rheoidegen]

I can't really critique or add to much of anything on this, but I want to say thank you for putting actual time and effort into a comprehensive post, as well as keeping the replies nice and... Well, reply-ish.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, Rheoidegen said:

I can't really critique or add to much of anything on this, but I want to say thank you for putting actual time and effort into a comprehensive post, as well as keeping the replies nice and... Well, reply-ish.

 

 

  Hide contents

 

Haha, thanks.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Personally, I think it is important for the enemies to have some sort of "blanket" shield effect to protect them from AOE wipes (though these shields should admittedly be a lot less prevalent). It's also not too hard to imagine that the enemy factions would be researching some way to counteract our eldritch powers. DE just needs to explain the mechanics of how they succeed for it to be acceptable lore-wise imo. Salad is a good candidate for that, and the Grineer can just steal Corpus tech for all I care.

That said, I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken to see Nullifiers just go.

I'm always for just changing them to being Shield Crewman with an Opticor honestly. Their shield blocks out some powers, but jumping in doesn't just rip our powers away from us. Eldritch powers are just that, the closest ones to figure out how they work were the Orokin, and I'm pretty sure those secrets ended up dying with them. No matter how many frames the Corpus dissect they are only ever going to find half the tech that channels the powers into the suit. The Corpus have the most variety of the factions when it comes to enemies, so getting rid of or changing the one that sticks out the most and breaks the fun the most really wouldn't make anyone shed a tear.

[Dawn11715]

I actually preffer the way DE tried to counter that problem before with Bursas and Sentients: By Adding resistance to them.

I'd like being strong overall/having easy play with normal enemys but having some harder ones as well, that give some kind of challenge in between, much like moon survival (Yes, you can kill single sentiens easily, but if they form groups, it is an engaging fight).

To be honest I think that alot of bosses should be regular enemys, or better have versions of them, that appear in regular missions.

Imagine eincountering a Terraframe in this huge hangar tile on the orokin asteroid, or an Raptor attacking yo on one of the open Bridges on jupiter.

We've seen mass-produced jackals on eris, why dont we see then in regular missions? It would be awesome!

As I see it, warframes were never meant to be defeated by trashy infantry, alot of them can be build to be close to undefeatable for them, and thats fine for me, thats part of Warframes appeal to me, but on the other hand, having no challenge at all can only result in boredom. with larger foes we could have both: feel powerfull and have a challenge.