Reduce the "miss" cost of Bladestorm to 50

[Nazrethim]

Tittle.

-The ability deals low damage for an ultimate, it's damage is roughly the same as Slash Dash or Rhino charge.

-It has 8m range, which in actual matches can be reduced to 2m due to lag.

-Ash can be killed mid cast, which makes the ability even more pointless.

-The soft-lock is so short that it requires pin point accuracy to cast

-The "AoE" red paint is ALSO 2-3m range, which means getting a multihit is next to impossible.

 

Since buffing the ability without making it too powerful (because apparently removing the multitarget and making it a single target killer ability would be too much) at least reduce the "miss" cost to 50, so at least we have energy to cast a couple of shuriken or a smoke screen when Bladestorm (predictably) misses or you are killed mid cast before dealing any damage.

[Jeseni1]

If aim not wrong Ash gonna get a rework on his bladestorm ability - or i am mistaken by that?

[LSG501]

well if you want that.... I want a percentage of my energy returned when a nullifier pops my frost globe and also my energy back when an ash kills MY target for my ability...

[GinKenshin]

4 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

well if you want that.... I want a percentage of my energy returned when a nullifier pops my frost globe and also my energy back when an ash kills MY target for my ability...

this is conclave feedback >.> 

[Drufo]

16 minutes ago, Kenshin98 said:

this is conclave feedback >.> 

In a conclave feedback thread, there is always someone that thinks it's PvE XD

[LSG501]

17 minutes ago, Kenshin98 said:

this is conclave feedback >.> 

ah my bad.... didn't realise that

[Hemmo67]

3 minutes ago, Drufo said:

In a conclave feedback thread, there is always someone that thinks it's PvE XD

because the tags do not load when using google chrome :|

[Drufo]

7 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

because the tags do not load when using google chrome :|

They are even a bit small, so I don't blame them for not seeing :)

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

55 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

because the tags do not load when using google chrome :|

???......I use chrome and I can tell it's conclave feedback section

Are you using it on your phone or am I missing something?

[Hemmo67]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

???......I use chrome and I can tell it's conclave feedback section

Are you using it on your phone or am I missing something?

x_x

yeah i use a laptop with windows 10 (could be what is behind this bug) but with firefox i see tags but with chrome they do not load in

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

Just now, Hemmo67 said:

x_x

yeah i use a laptop with windows 10 (could be what is behind this bug) but with firefox i see tags but with chrome they do not load in

Ahhhh I see. That sucks. lol

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Jeseni1 said:

If aim not wrong Ash gonna get a rework on his bladestorm ability - or i am mistaken by that?

Yeah, hopefully DE will do the right thing a read some of the cool suggestions on the forum instead of the "world on bladestorm" they attempted before realising it was a dum idea.

This is more of a temporal bandaid, because a frame shouldn't have 3 useless abilities, 2 it's reasonable, not 3.

[Phasedragon]

It's not like he has 3 useless abilities, though..... shuriken is one of the best 25 energy homing damagers, smoke got a buff which increases mobility, and teleport is fantastic for melee especially now that it got buffed as well. Ash already has a great kit for pvp, but I would support this change to all the targeted abilities that cost more than 25 if you miss. This was done to prevent spamming them, obviously, but perhaps the entire cost of it is a bit too much of a penalty.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Phasedragon said:

It's not like he has 3 useless abilities, though..... shuriken is one of the best 25 energy homing damagers, smoke got a buff which increases mobility, and teleport is fantastic for melee especially now that it got buffed as well. Ash already has a great kit for pvp, but I would support this change to all the targeted abilities that cost more than 25 if you miss. This was done to prevent spamming them, obviously, but perhaps the entire cost of it is a bit too much of a penalty.

-Shuriken has wonky tracking, but can be compensated by careful aiming, yes, aiming. It's a useful ability

-Smoke Screen: doesn't stagger, so it's mostly pointless for escapes. Tear Gas has 3m range which is near pointless too, as it doesn't prevent anyone from blind shooting/slicing you. Yes, it now gives 0.2 Mobility, but that came at the price of reducing the duration from 8s to 5s. It still breaks from any attack or pickup or if you take enough damage. It isn't a full invisibility either, unless you use black energy. It's overall a useless ability

-Teleport: brings you to melee range, and nothing else, which you can do with parkour and save energy that can be used for something else (which here means "Shuriken" and "Channeling"). Useless ability number 2.

-Bladestorm: See above.

I wouldn't mind other, high cost, missable abilities to get the same, though I don't really know which abilities would be as sh*tty as bladestorm currently is.

Let me tell you the stages of Conclave 2.0 Bladestorm:

1- Bladestorm button spam, pin-point accuracy required, pointblank range, 2 targets max (the one you aim + someone else), around 250 Slash damage

2-Bladestorm button spam, pin-point accuracy required, same damage, no limit to targets, Conclave Finisher damage (ignores armor but not shields)

3-Bladestorm button spam gone due to cost on button press rather than successful cast, soft-targeting, no limit to targets, around 220 CF damage, about 10-12m casting range

4- Current Bladestorm. Cost on button press rather than sucessful cast, soft-targeting reduced to near pin-point accuracy required, no limits to targets, 150 damage if the target has shields up (even if it's only 10 points of shield) and 200 if shield is depleted (which indicates the damage was changed to Slash), pointblank range.

The "cost on button press" was implemented to balance the buffs that Bladestorm received to damage and range (which were too low and short initially) but then those were brought back for no reason other than people complained it was op (while gleefully ignoring Spamquake, Exalted Spam, Catacheesem etc). It's kind of what happened when Nikanas were overnerfed because they were, y'know, useful, as sword Alone.

 

Edit: Almost forgot, what WAS broken of pre-overnerf Bladestorm was the multitarget range, which was also 10m and went trough walls and didn't respect LoS, which would have been easily fixed by simply making Bladestorm a single target killer move or reduce the multi-target range to 3-4m but leaving the casting range at 10-12m. I warned players that DE would overnerf the ability, instead of doing the right thing, and I turned out to be right.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)ghinellil]

I wonder why BS still in Conclave... then give me back sleep arrows!

[Nazrethim]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

I wonder why BS still in Conclave... then give me back sleep arrows!

It's still there because Ash must have 4 abilities. Though by how is abilities work now one could argue he has only Shuriken. Specifically for Bladestorm, first it was bad, then it was made op, then it was fixed, then it was overnerfed because people who don't play Ash and knew jack about his abilitites complained and stayed that way.

I ask only for a minor QoL instead of a buff because if DE does buff BS they will probably f*ck it up again, and they are suposedly doing a rework for it so a buff would be pointless anyway.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)ghinellil]

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

It's still there because Ash must have 4 abilities. Though by how is abilities work now one could argue he has only Shuriken. Specifically for Bladestorm, first it was bad, then it was made op, then it was fixed, then it was overnerfed because people who don't play Ash and knew jack about his abilitites complained and stayed that way.

I been killed various time by BS on Conclave. You must be near, but don't have chance to avoid the death XD. Pretty unfair IMO. I don't melee so much, so i'm fine with it, but i'm sure some folks hate it too.

[Nazrethim]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

I been killed various time by BS on Conclave. You must be near, but don't have chance to avoid the death XD. Pretty unfair IMO. I don't melee so much, so i'm fine with it, but i'm sure some folks hate it too.

Bladestorm only kills you if you are without shield and a bit of health missing, you are attacked only once, the ability CAN be missed and avoided, if you move fast you can get out of casting range just in time and make the player waste 100 energy and lock himself on a 1s animation, the ability having effectively pointblank range and no buttonspam chance. Compare to another melee frame: Excalibur can wipe a whole match if they are nearby, yet nobody sees this as broken, while Bladestorm can kill ONE person at best, seriously injure or scratch (if even 1p of shield is up) most of the time the cast is successful, and miss roughly 50% of the time due to lag and poor range. People hated it because once you got painted you were scr*wed, but what about Nova's unavoidable MP? About Banshee's murderquake? Rhino's stomp? Frost's Avalanche? none of those can be avoided if you are in range, and those don't require aiming.

And remember I'm not asking for a buff, but to reduce an unfair penalty (that 100 cost on miss was added when BS got a range buff and soft-lock, but now those have been reverted to pointblank pinpoint and the cost on miss remained)

Edited August 29, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Nazrethim]

Well, after 6 failed attempts to Bladestorm a Loki on default ehp and taking only his shield and around 30 health away on the one sucessful cast I conclude this ability does indeed need a buff to it's damage or simply removing the cost on miss entirely.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Nazrethim

[JonBenj]

Just a couple of points - Smokescreen grants .4 if i'm not mistaken and Teleport has extended range and faster cast time - Teleport works great as an escape: At a point where an enemy is hosing you, and you cast Teleport to remove aggro and disorientate the player for a tactical retreat.

Certainly not invalidating your opinion - as these abilities are very situational and are somewhat of a risk in their application.

[(PSN)ghinellil]

On 8/29/2016 at 4:06 PM, Nazrethim said:

Bladestorm only kills you if you are without shield and a bit of health missing, you are attacked only once, the ability CAN be missed and avoided, if you move fast you can get out of casting range just in time and make the player waste 100 energy and lock himself on a 1s animation, the ability having effectively pointblank range and no buttonspam chance. Compare to another melee frame: Excalibur can wipe a whole match if they are nearby, yet nobody sees this as broken, while Bladestorm can kill ONE person at best, seriously injure or scratch (if even 1p of shield is up) most of the time the cast is successful, and miss roughly 50% of the time due to lag and poor range. People hated it because once you got painted you were scr*wed, but what about Nova's unavoidable MP? About Banshee's murderquake? Rhino's stomp? Frost's Avalanche? none of those can be avoided if you are in range, and those don't require aiming.

And remember I'm not asking for a buff, but to reduce an unfair penalty (that 100 cost on miss was added when BS got a range buff and soft-lock, but now those have been reverted to pointblank pinpoint and the cost on miss remained)

I have played conclave a bit in this days... yes, there are abilities much worse to counter.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, JonBenj said:

Just a couple of points - Smokescreen grants .4 if i'm not mistaken and Teleport has extended range and faster cast time - Teleport works great as an escape: At a point where an enemy is hosing you, and you cast Teleport to remove aggro and disorientate the player for a tactical retreat.

Certainly not invalidating your opinion - as these abilities are very situational and are somewhat of a risk in their application.

-It's +0.2 mobility. Tested by bulletjumping near walls with and without +mobility mods. And despite lasting 5 miserable seconds it still breaks from anything.

-Teleport isn't good for escapes. If it worked by teleporting to the aimed location instead of a target entity it would be fine (since it doesnt stagger or affect entities in any way) but as it is right now it's pointless to use it, even with the animation amd range buff.

[Pythadragon]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-It's +0.2 mobility. Tested by bulletjumping near walls with and without +mobility mods. And despite lasting 5 miserable seconds it still breaks from anything.

-Teleport isn't good for escapes. If it worked by teleporting to the aimed location instead of a target entity it would be fine (since it doesnt stagger or affect entities in any way) but as it is right now it's pointless to use it, even with the animation amd range buff.

Ash smokescreen only breaks if you attack or if you pick something up. Unlike loki invis, no amount of damage breaks ash smokescreen prematurely. It only breaks if you choose to break it. It lasts 6 seconds. This is enough time to start regening shields if they were damaged. Delay until shield regen = 5 seconds.

Jon is probably the only player I know that uses teleport. And in his hands, it works as described. Good at evading me. Kudos to him :).

Edited August 31, 2016 by Pythadragon

[JonBenj]

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-It's +0.2 mobility. Tested by bulletjumping near walls with and without +mobility mods. And despite lasting 5 miserable seconds it still breaks from anything.

-Teleport isn't good for escapes. If it worked by teleporting to the aimed location instead of a target entity it would be fine (since it doesnt stagger or affect entities in any way) but as it is right now it's pointless to use it, even with the animation amd range buff.

I stand corrected re: Smokescreen mobility.

Teleport: A rather damning and negative response.

Maybe stop with the frame choice myopia and give Ash a rest - otherwise remain in your discontent.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Pythadragon said:

Ash smokescreen only breaks if you attack or if you pick something up. Unlike loki invis, no amount of damage breaks ash smokescreen prematurely. It only breaks if you choose to break it. It lasts 6 seconds. This is enough time to start regening shields if they were damaged. Delay until shield regen = 5 seconds.

Maybe it's my fault for not using black energy, or for trying to use it to escape a tight situation instead of using it to become invisible after I already evaded my foe (which is the only time it "helps")

 

2 hours ago, JonBenj said:

Teleport: A rather damning and negative response.

Maybe stop with the frame choice myopia and give Ash a rest - otherwise remain in your discontent.

Well, I do use Teleport... for sh*ts and giggles when I have full energy and literally nothing to spend it on. Thing is Teleport doesn't do anything I can't do myself in less time than the animation and without spending energy while doing nothing to my target, if it weren't for the Melee Stagger (or a duplex tigris shot to the face if you're a gunplayer) I wouldn't cast it even for Fun.

But back to the main topic. Do we agree that the "cost on miss" of bladestorm is unfair for it's mechanics (because that miss penalty was added when the ability's range and damage was buffed, but now both have been reversed to the unbuffed values while the penalty remained) and that either the ability needs a buff or the cost of missing needs to be toned down to 50?