Jat Kittag simply outclasses most other melees

[Heckzu]

In my recent experience, I've found the Jat Kittag to be one of the most problematic weapons in Conclave. With the change in combos to the sword & shield stance, sword & shield weapons saw a decline in use because you could no longer just hold the right mouse button and score an absurd amount of easy kills due to its large AoE swings with staggering effects along with the mobility to reach enemies to use said effects. DE, however, neglected to do something about the hammer stance, which ended up putting the Jat Kittag in the position the sword & shield weapons were in: you can just hold the right mouse button and spam E for easy no-skill kills due to high mobility and large AoE swings.

Why am I mentioning the Jat Kittag and not all the hammers as a whole? Because the Jat Kittag stands out above all other hammers. It's the most used hammer, and that's because it's better than all other hammers. Hammers are supposed to be slow but strong weapons. The Jat Kittag defies that ideology with its 1.00 attack speed, which is boosted up to 1.2 with Martial Fury. This allows the user to use the hammer stance combos (of which, the hold block combo, Fist and Hammer, is pretty much the only one used) rapidly. On top of that, with its high attack speed, there is little counterplay when a Jat Kittag user knocks you down with its radial slam from a jump attack because the Jat Kittag user is able to recover from the slam almost as fast as you are, often guaranteeing a kill because the moment you recover from a Jat Kittag slam, the Jat Kittag gets slammed into your face for lethal damage. 

Now, let's compare the Jat Kittag to the other hammers. It has a base damage of 50.7 physical damage, with a 1.00 attack speed. The Fragor Prime has 53.3 physical damage, but a measly .800 attack speed, making it too slow to use effectively in Conclave. The Fragor has 62.1 physical damage with a .833 attack speed. Again, too slow. The Magistar has 62.4 damage with .833 attack speed, almost the same as the Fragor. The only hammer that matches the Jat Kittag in attack speed is the Sibear with 41.6 Cold damage and 1.00 attack speed. But if you compare the Sibear with the Jat Kittag, the Jat Kittag is strictly better. With the same attack speed, they can pull off combos at the same speed, but the Jat Kittag has 50.7 damage whereas the Sibear has 41.6. One might argue: "But they have different damage types so they deal more damage in different situations!". That is wrong. The Jat Kittag has 40.6 impact damage, which receives +50% damage against shields and isn't mitigated by any stat warframes have, so at the minimum it deals 40.6 impact damage and at the maximum, 60.9 impact against shields. The Sibear is 41.6 Cold damage, which is +50% against shields but offers no bonuses to warframes' ferrite armor (according to the wiki). So its minimum damage is 41.6 cold, and at max 62.4 cold damage against shields. That's a maximum difference of 1.5 between their damage. However, I have not yet included Jat Kittag's other physical damage types: 2.5 slash and 7.6 puncture. Slash offers no bonuses against shields, so the slash damage covers the offset in damage against shields between the two weapons and then some when it comes to taking down shields. Slash, however, gets a 15% damage reduction against ferrite armor, reducting it to 2.125 damage, but this is still more than the difference between the Jat Kittag's impact and the Sibear's cold damage. Furthermore, the Jat Kittag has 7.6 puncture damage, which is -20% against shields and +50% against ferrite armor, further increasing the damage gap between the Jat Kittag and Sibear.

TLDR: Jat Kittag is problematic because of its high attack speed and outdamages the only other hammer that can compete in attack speed.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

NVM

These are conclave damage numbers, that's why.

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by (PS4)Magician_NG
edited for clarity

[Twilight053]

You haven't accounted the crits. With Blood Rush, Jat Kittag's 15% crit chance would only barely reach a full yellow crit while Fragor Prime's 35% crit chance would vastly outdamage the former with constant redcrits (not to mention Fragor Prime had higher crit multiplier).

Yes, Fragor Prime is much slower, but it's abysmally stronger by miles. I'd say it's a proper tradeoff for a weapon that hits like a wrecking ball.

EDIT: im an idiot i just realized this is in conclave feedback

Edited August 26, 2016 by Twilight053

[Dumfing]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

NVM

These are conclave damage numbers, that's why.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Twilight053 said:

You haven't accounted the crits. With Blood Rush, Jat Kittag's 15% crit chance would only barely reach a full yellow crit while Fragor Prime's 35% crit chance would vastly outdamage the former with constant redcrits (not to mention Fragor Prime had higher crit multiplier).

Yes, Fragor Prime is much slower, but it's abysmally stronger by miles. I'd say it's a proper tradeoff for a weapon that hits like a wrecking ball.

EDIT: im an idiot i just realized this is in conclave feedback

Both of you guys didn't even finish reading the first sentence before you commented -_-

[(PSN)cbrstar]

With a little bit of lag you can be almost invincible with the Jat Kittag, one player last night was repeatably going 22-1, other weapons that seem oddly OP with lag IMHO are the Silva & Aegis, and Galatine prime.

I'm not sure what mods these guys have but they are running around channeling almost the whole match without loosing energy, blocking all your bullets then practically one shoting you.

Very frustrating for newer players like myself.

Edited August 26, 2016 by (PS4)cbrstar

[Nazrethim]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)cbrstar said:

 they are running around channeling almost the whole match without loosing energy,

They probably play Ash or another frame with useless abilities, therefore they can use all their energy on Channeling instead of powers :P

[Tymerc]

True Warriors use the Skana (Prime). 

[SevenLetterKWord]

9 hours ago, Heckzu said:

impact damage... isn't mitigated by any stat warframes have

You mean besides -25% against Flesh, which all Warframes have?
(It's actually Cold damage that deals bonus damage to shields with no downsides in Conclave. You've completely reversed the truth here.)

Quote

Jat Kittag is strictly better

And even worse, the Jat Kittag inflicts cold procs, and the Sibear doesn't!

Right?
Or have we conveniently neglected the facts?

Quote

2.5 slash... Slash, however, gets a 15% damage reduction against ferrite armor, reducting it to 2.125 damage

You literally just multiplied 2.5 by (1.00-0.15) to get 2.125.
This is not even close to how damage values against armor works.
 

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash or another frame with useless abilities

Goodbye, Tin Man...
Goodbye, Lion...
Goodbye, Nazrethim's credibility... I think I'll miss you most of all.

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

You made me laugh with that. Though you have to accept that having ONE goodish ability and 3 useless (by comparison to the rest of the frames that have two useless) doesn't destroy my credibility.

One is strong, if unreliable.
Two is decent, but severely inferior to Loki's Invisibility.
Three could have potential post-buff, but is still fairly expensive for its effect. Suggesting 15.
Four has mediocre risk-reward, at the upside of being impossible to deliberately avoid.

But let's not turn this into a discussion of Ash's abilities. I'm sure you've already pushed those points in many other threads.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Knaimhe

[Nazrethim]

10 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

Goodbye, Tin Man...
Goodbye, Lion...
Goodbye, Nazrethim's credibility... I think I'll miss you most of all.

You made me laugh with that. Though you have to accept that having ONE goodish ability and 3 useless (by comparison to the rest of the frames that have two useless) doesn't destroy my credibility.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

It's just come back around. Its part of the buff/nerf cycle that 75% of the equipment is in on warframe. 

Give it a month and it will be re nerfed. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

Jat is kind of annoying right now in conclave but you can get around it. Besides it'll get nerfed soon enough.

[WretchedMonarch]

On 8/27/2016 at 5:16 AM, Tymerc said:

True Warriors use the Skana (Prime). 

Pangolin Sword user reporting here. :D

 

The best way to evade Jag Kittag for me is to stick a nearby wall and try to bring the user down from up above. Aerial maneuvers render it useless, provided he doesn't stagger you before you take off. It's hilariously broken in close quarters though, no doubt.