Should War be buffed, now that the Galatine Prime is out?

[ashrah]

war dont need buff its very strong....use primed reach max^^

[Vohim]

6 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

-15% ferrite and -50% alloy. No 75% there. Impact does more damage against shield which is negligible and less damage against flesh whereas slash does neutral dmg against shields and more against flesh whereas corpus techs are the most durable and have more flesh than shield. Also, slash procs ignore shields completely. What does impact do? Nothing from use. And you actually use your 20% status and high slash advantage against armored enemies. Then there is the slower speed from war. War doesn't hold a candle against galatine prime. Impact is also the weakest damage type which unlike slash, has a useless proc.

well at this point nothing said to you will educate you as you are completely biased  and i can only hope  not many players start getting bias  from your statements 

impact not only is effective against shields  but its proc Staggers enemies  i wouldnt call that useless

 

 i have about 40 weapons and  guess what i dont run just the one with the highest numbers i use lots of them depending on what im doing and what the enemy is and what if stalker spawns 

 

heck even after maxing  formaing and potationg galatine my preferred melee is still Atterax 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Retepzednem

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

impact not only is effective against shields  but its proc Staggers enemies  i wouldnt call that useless

Now i can only hope people wouldn't start getting biased by this. No one builds high status to stagger enemies. I use guns to kill enemies. If i want CC, i use abilities. And if you're so interested to CC with weapons, use explosion status or play sonicor, an actual CC weapon. The stagger is literally a joke.

Also, i'm not biased. I'm just saying the truth. You can play whatever floats your boat. Just don't spread misinformation.

[Vohim]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Now i can only hope people wouldn't start getting biased by this. No one builds high status to stagger enemies. I use guns to kill enemies. If i want CC, i use abilities. And if you're so interested to CC with weapons, use explosion status or play sonicor, an actual CC weapon. The stagger is literally a joke.

Also, i'm not biased. I'm just saying the truth. You can play whatever floats your boat. Just don't spread misinformation.

you're the one saying War is useless because  a weapon with 3 levels of mastery higher  has 25 more base damage 

you dont need  100% status to proc staggers 1 simple  % status+elemental  mod will do just fine 

[zehne]

If in place of a stagger you procced slash...

The enemy would be permanently staggered because it will die.

EDIT:

If war was buffed, I'd suggest it become a slash weapon and just reverse the damage amounts of impact and slash.  Makes no sense that Broken war is slash and War is Impact.

Is the energy part of the energy  blade on War supposed to protect the enemies from the sharp edges?  I'm pretty sure they do because instead of cutting them it beats them with a blunt object.

Edited August 29, 2016 by zehne

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

you're the one saying War is useless because  a weapon with 3 levels of mastery higher  has 25 more base damage 

I haven't said war is "useless" neither did i say anything because of only 25 more base dmg or 3 more MRs. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Vohim]

5 hours ago, zehne said:

If in place of a stagger you procced slash...

The enemy would be permanently staggered because it will die.

EDIT:

If war was buffed, I'd suggest it become a slash weapon and just reverse the damage amounts of impact and slash.  Makes no sense that Broken war is slash and War is Impact.

Is the energy part of the energy  blade on War supposed to protect the enemies from the sharp edges?  I'm pretty sure they do because instead of cutting them it beats them with a blunt object.

Wiki:

Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds

35% of your weapon's BASE damage  

in other words the only damage bleeding will take account are  from Spoiled Strike and Pressure point mods , you can give galatine prime 3000 slash damage with buzzkill jagged edge  and whatever  and it still will only  do the same damage as if y ou only had those  2 mods   while only taking into account the initial  165+4.1x2  slash impact and puncture damages  elemental mods are excluded 

 

thus galatine prime cant be both a super direct damage weapon  and a status weapon as   a bleeding build would require max speed and giving up  elemental mods  or crit mods

Edited August 30, 2016 by Retepzednem

[zehne]

4 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

in other words the only damage bleeding will take account are  from Spoiled Strike and Pressure point mods , you can give galatine prime 3000 slash damage with buzzkill jagged edge

.... /facepalm

You forgot to include that slash procs can crit and gain bonuses from crit damage modifiers and headshot modifiers also.  Also forgot to mention that it isn't effected by resistances or armor.

Meaning that if you take:

Pressure point, reach, organ shatter, body count, blood rush, weeping wounds, berserker and one 60% mixed elemental:

You get a Galatine Prime with:

• 20% crit +Blood rush
• 3.8x crit multiplier
• 32% status +weeping wounds
• And 62.5% of it's damage is 'BASE DAMAGE' (base damage is 165*(1+1.2)=363)
• Non base damage is 217.8

Spread sheet for status and crit chance looks like this:

		Melee Combo/ Status @ combo counter
Base Status	Mods (%)	1	1.5	2	2.5	3	3.5	4	4.5	5	5.5
20	60	46.40	53.60	60.80	68.00	75.20	82.40	89.60	96.80	104.00	111.20
		Melee Combo/ Crit @ combo counter
Base Crit	Mods (%)	1	1.5	2	2.5	3	3.5	4	4.5	5	5.5
20	0	53.00	69.50	86.00	102.50	119.00	135.50	152.00	168.50	185.00	201.50

So lets just say we're swinging that sword around at 2.5x combo, since it's 102.50% crit, we'll just say that 100% of hits are normal crits for comparison.

That means that the damage done will be (363+217.8)*3.8= 2210.8

Now, lets avg 100 of those hits, that's 2210.8 *100 + 68 of those attacks trigger a status proc.  Out of which there is a 87% chance it'll be a IPS proc, out of which there is a 95% chance it'll be a slash proc.  (so 68*.87*.95= ~~56 slash procs)  Since it's 35% of base damage per tick, and there are 7 ticks, that's 363*.35*7*3.8(because they crit also because >100% crit)= 3379.53 damage per slash proc.

• 100 hits @ 2210.8 damage = 221080
• 56 slash procs @ 3379.53 damage = 189253 damage
• Totaling 410333 damage.

The short version of replacing weeping wounds and the 60% elemental with Jagged and buzzkill is:

• Same Crit chance
• Same crit multiplier
• 20% status (unchanging)
• Same base damage (363)
• Non base damage of 724.1 (all additional slash)

100 hits, 100 crits @ 3.8 multiplier and 20x procs with 98% chance to proc slash (20*.98=~~20).

• (363+724.1)*3.8=3114.6 damage a hit with 100 hits = 311460 damage
• slash procs at 363*.35*7*3.8 = 3379.5 damage per proc =67590 damage
• Total of 379050 damage

 

Comparing the two builds:

• first one with weeping wounds and 60% elemental as described at top = 410333 damage only accounting for slash procs, there are an additional ~~9 elemental damage procs not accounted for damage wise.
• Second Build which replaces weeping wounds and 60% elemental for jagged and Buzzkill = 379050 damage with ~~100% of status procs accounted for.

Numbers wise, that makes the build with weeping wounds and a 60% elemental mod ~~8% stronger not taking the elemental status procs into account (electricity, toxin, fire all do more damage).  It also doesn't take into consideration that there will be more of those occasional impact procs (staggers) because there is a higher chance to get them w/o the slash mods.

Take same builds and replace reach w/ spoiled strike, and you'll get the same difference because spoiled strike effects all the damage #'s the same because it's base damage.  Replace jagged on the second build w/ a 90% elemental and you'll get the slightly higher straight damage, with less proc damage due to the chance to proc slash being shifted (although you could proc electricity, toxin, fire).

 

Either way, the end case is that weeping wounds + 60% elemental > jagged and Buzzkill on Galatine prime because of that 20% base status chance.  This doesn't even begin to account for damage resistances or armor since slash procs ARE NOT reduced from them.  So when going against those Bombards with incredible amounts of armor, the second build (jagged and buzzkill) has most of it's damage significantly reduced.  While the build that uses slash procs maintains most of it's damage.

TLDR;

Weeping wounds + 60% elemental > jagged edge + buzzkill

against high armor

Weeping wounds +60% elemental >>> Jagged edge +buzzkill

 

[zehne]

^Just to be clear, this holds true only for heavy slash weapons, and only if they have high enough status chance.

[DSpite]

On 29/08/2016 at 8:24 AM, KaizergidorahXi said:

"... Galatine vastly outranks my war, almost by 1,000 damage."

It's not YOUR "War" it's just a weapon. Simply because you now feel inadequate because other weapons have bigger deeps, is not a good reason to buff it.

[Apoc001]

8 hours ago, Retepzednem said:

also Bleeding does not scale off of Slash damage but rather base damage  and crit

and combo count, stance modifiers, channeling and powers

Edited August 30, 2016 by Apoc001

[zehne]

/facepalm

/facepalm

So I use Primed pressure point on my Galatine prime.

That means it has 436.9 base damage (165*(1+1.65)) (small dispute between hard math and stats screen) (calculator says 437.25, stats screen says 10.9/10.9/415.1= 436.9)

So if we take the wiki, a slash proc will be 436.9*.35 damage per tick = 152.915 damage.

SImulcron says:

Spoiler

If I take the same weapon and give it a combo counter of 2.5, and I crit the hit:

45 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

and combo count, channeling and powers

 

The damage should be 436.9*.35*3.8( 3.8 is crit multiplier)= 581 damage.

Simulcron says:

Spoiler

Wait a second, those numbers don't add up.

Oh-wait, 581*2.5 (because 2.5 is the melee combo multiplier) = 1452.7

sooo...Confirmed that combo counter effects slash procs.

 

Basically it goes like this: large portion of damage from IPS weapons focused on Slash, comes from Slash (in case of 20% pure status chance, the contribution was ~~18%).  Which is the reason why slash weapons are so powerful.

If war was slash based instead of impact based, it's get nearly a 18% damage increase instantly because of procs.  Also that 18% damage could never be effected by enemy armor or damage resistances.

So next time you hit a high level bombard for 100 damage, know that if you got a slash proc it'd do many many many times higher damage than that PER TICK.

Edited August 30, 2016 by zehne

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

How would that get people to buy plat?

[VonDodo]

For me destreza and dakra P should be stronger than galatine P and war...

Whereas a weapon has less range and its harder to use it should be better not the other way around.

 

Want your MR to matter? makes high mr weapons weapons with base damage and stronger with combos so MR ties with skill to mean something.

[Apoc001]

19 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

For me destreza and dakra P should be stronger than galatine P and war...

Whereas a weapon has less range and its harder to use it should be better not the other way around.

 

Want your MR to matter? makes high mr weapons weapons with base damage and stronger with combos so MR ties with skill to mean something.

Destreza is a "duelist" weapon, or a weapon designed to focus on a single target

duelist weapons tend to be a lot stronger at dispatching single, priority enemies faster than "battlefield" weapons, or weapons designed to handle groups of enemies, which is what the heavy blades specialize in

thanks to the stance Destreza can use, it can force open a finisher, dealing huge amounts of finisher damage to an enemy, so in a way, against a single, strong unit, the Destreza kills faster than the heavy blades

[Aglethe]

22 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

Oh cool. A nice DPS chart. Thanks for the info! :3

Oh, and Dark Split Sword is good. Which is technically a heavy blade (my holsters keep telling me so). I wonder what the quick melee numbers look like.

Happy to help =)

Yeah, I'm curious about what quick melee looks like as well. The problem is we only have numbers for the stuff Dunking Machine looked at. Which didn't include quick melee unfortunately. So someone else would have to find the actual attack speeds for all of those. There's the same problem if they introduce any new stances or combos (well he didn't cover all of them in the first place, but probably most of the ones that matter).

So for better or for worse, being able to solve for melee dps at all is only a temporary thing unless someone takes up where he left off. :/

[Racter]

I would argue that both are strong enough. The difference in the level of enemy you can comfortably kill is negligible and far beyond what DE apparently balances around so what difference does it make, really? Even from a min maxing perspective. I've gone just under 2hr 23m with War on a Saryn, solo, in the old T3S. Which, btw, is within 10m of what you could reliably do with pre nerf Hysteria, which absolutely dumpsters the pair of them in base stats.

 

It's like arguing over whether the Sancti Tigris or Tigris Prime is better. One does more damage on paper, both easily kill anything you are expected to kill in the game so what difference does it honestly make? lol

[VonDodo]

18 hours ago, Apoc001 said:

18 hours ago, Apoc001 said:

Destreza is a "duelist" weapon, or a weapon designed to focus on a single target

duelist weapons tend to be a lot stronger at dispatching single, priority enemies faster than "battlefield" weapons, or weapons designed to handle groups of enemies, which is what the heavy blades specialize in

thanks to the stance Destreza can use, it can force open a finisher, dealing huge amounts of finisher damage to an enemy, so in a way, against a single, strong unit, the Destreza kills faster than the heavy blades

Destreza is a "duelist" weapon, or a weapon designed to focus on a single target

duelist weapons tend to be a lot stronger at dispatching single, priority enemies faster than "battlefield" weapons, or weapons designed to handle groups of enemies, which is what the heavy blades specialize in

thanks to the stance Destreza can use, it can force open a finisher, dealing huge amounts of finisher damage to an enemy, so in a way, against a single, strong unit, the Destreza kills faster than the heavy blades

And this is infact the problem.

Destreza is MR8 Galatine P is MR13.

Should be the opposite.

[tedbearr]

If the War needs to be buffed just because a stronger weapon came out, then every melee in the game needs to be buffed to be on par with the galatine prime. Every rifle needs to be on soma prime level, every secondary has to be a lex prime now.

[Apoc001]

2 hours ago, VonDodo said:

And this is infact the problem.

Destreza is MR8 Galatine P is MR13.

Should be the opposite.

why?

as I mentioned already, duelist can kill single targets faster, but battlefield weapons can kill groups faster

[VonDodo]

Just now, Apoc001 said:

why?

as I mentioned already, duelist can kill single targets faster, but battlefield weapons can kill groups faster

Because skill weapons should be tied with high MR not spam weapons.

See when a Latron wraith is MR0 and a synoid simulor is MR12 something is wrong.

Same works with destreza vs galatine P/War

[Apoc001]

1 hour ago, VonDodo said:

Because skill weapons should be tied with high MR not spam weapons.

See when a Latron wraith is MR0 and a synoid simulor is MR12 something is wrong.

Same works with destreza vs galatine P/War

who said anything about "skill" weapons? and in what way is the Destreza more skillful than heavy blades?

[VonDodo]

1 hour ago, Apoc001 said:

who said anything about "skill" weapons? and in what way is the Destreza more skillful than heavy blades?

Do i really have to explain again why destreza requires more skill?
-.-

 

[Apoc001]

27 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

Do i really have to explain again why destreza requires more skill?
-.-

 

I believe you mean more effort, not skill

[KaizergidorahXi]

On 8/29/2016 at 9:46 PM, DSpite said:

It's not YOUR "War" it's just a weapon. Simply because you now feel inadequate because other weapons have bigger deeps, is not a good reason to buff it.

I said "My War" Because I was talking about MY specific loadout. Chill out.

I have no problem using the Galatine over War. I simply think that War should be an at least equally strong weapon. It IS Stalker's weapon, after all.

I personally like the Galatine, almost as much as I like War.

Edited August 31, 2016 by KaizergidorahXi