The numbers in Primed pressure point do not add up!

[Deshiel]

 

 

This is Primed pressure point e graph  for the meele mod that adds +DMG to your wepuns. It shows (from left to right) RANK, gain, drain/cost and conclave

0	+15%	4	C10
1	+30%	5	C11
2	+45%	6	C12
3	+60%	7	C13
4	+75%	8	C14
5	+90%	9	C15
6	+105%	10	C16
7	+120%	11	C17
8	+135%	12	C18
9	+150%	13	C19
10	+165%	14	C20

Below is regular pressure point.

Notice how the primed version gives less  damage gain but continues to add on drain/cost

 

0	+20%	4	C8
1	+40%	5	C8
2	+60%	6	C11
3	+80%	7	C14
4	+100%	8	C17
5	+120%	9	C20

 

Other primed damage mods do not screw you by weakening the damage gain from rank 0 to 10 like this little bastard does. Since this case is unique I'm wondering if its some sort of bug. That nobody cares about because Primed pressure point is not very common. 

I'm in a situation where I have primed pressure point on Rank 6, but it only provides +105% and takes away 10 points while the maxed regular pressure point gives +120% but takes only 9 points of my mod space.

Additional info:

Maxed pressure point gives +120% dmg and costs only 9 mod points.

Fusion from R0-to R5MAX is a matter of a small amount of Endo, Around 300-500

Primed Pressure Point has +120% on R7! for 11 mod points! 

Fusion from R0-R7 is like 1000-4000 Endo...

Edited September 16, 2016 by Deshiel

[DEADSHOT456]

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

So you're going to keep your PPP and PPG at an intermediate rank just to put it on weapons without forma?

Yes, thats a choice.

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

These are primed mods we are talking about here. Arguing that you should be able to slot them without forma totally misses the point of even having them.

So?

Who said that these mods should be used at max levels only? Why do you think people have multiple copies of same mods at different ranks?

I have not maxed Primed Reach to Rank 10. I kept it at Rank 9 to avoid one more forma in the weapons I use it on. What is the problem in that?

Where is it stated that Primed mods SHOULD be used at max rank? Really?

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Primed mods are a way to allow vets to spend massive resources to slightly improve their gear.

That, right there is a big assumption. Primed mods are a resource sink, true. But that does not mean they should be 'slight' improvement. Hell, your idea is not even followed by 90% of the Primed mods.

Primed continuity gives almost double the duration. Primed Bane mods are exactly like rank 10 bane mods. Same goes for primed heated charge and primed heavy trauma. Even primed point black is the same. And I won't even say anything about primed reach.

Those are not slight improvements. When you say 'slight' improvement, you are referring to only 2 out of 20 or 25 primed mods we have. In this situation, those 2 are indeed the odd ones out.

It is funny how you generalized the idea of Primed mods being 'slight improvement' based on the norm followed by 2 mods, while there are 20 other Primed mods that literally doubles the effect of their normal counterpart(of course, double as in after disregarding the stat at rank 0).

That's how you want to debate and prove that PPP is perfectly fine? Really?

Even then I am ok with Primed Pistol Gambit. Why? Because while it provides less crit chance, it also has lower base mod point drain. Lower drain justifies the less crit per rank.

However, PPP is straightaway bad upto a pretty high rank, when compared to PP. There is no justification as to why.

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Complaining about the resources required is missing the point.

I am not complaining about resources. I am complaining about the fact that PPP does not reward the player up to a certain level for the resources spent. And that level actually should be better since I am already surpassing the max level of PP.

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Nobody is forcing you to do anything,

Yes, you are. You and the other user is constantly trying to make me believe that Primed Mods are supposed to be better at MAX rank.

Nowhere is it written that Primed mods were designed to be good at MAX rank.

Every other Primed mod in the game except PPP and Primed Pistol Gambit surpasses the stats of their normal counterpart the moment they go to Rank 6.

You are constantly basing your arguments on the anomalies, instead of going with what the majority of the mods follow.

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

But the mod should be balanced around it's stats at max rank, since that is where the potential op-ness comes in.

NO. Just NO. Stop this assumption. Only 2 out of 20 Primed mods follow this norm. Every other primed mod surpasses its normal counterpart at Rank 6. Stop basing your argument on the inconsistencies.

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Having +220% damage for melee would have been ridiculous. Having +165% damage for melee is already ridiculous and op, and so of course people are complaining because it's too expensive to slot that op luxury primed mod that costs 2 million credits to max on your weapon with 0 forma.

"Having 220% for melee is OP". Meanwhile, shotguns smile while using primed point blank. You think primed point blank is not OP?

Following your logic, primed point blank should not even exist. 90% for shotguns was already high enough.

Also, I never said "buff PPP to 220%". Can you show me where I said it?

I have always suggested to just reduce the base mod point drain of PPP to 2, instead of 4. Exactly like primed pistol gambit. But as I said before, Rebecca already said it won't happen, so we are stuck with the anomaly.

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

C'mon, man, what do you expect? Do you want DE to just buff regular PP? Because it sounds like that's what you're asking for.

Read the last line above.

 

That being said, I am done here.

Edited September 17, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[(XBOX)Twinna25]

Because if you keep it at the same position as the normal mod, you may as well save the endo and use the normal mod. If it wasn't for this, Primed pressure point would add 220% melee damage, equivalent to a normal pressure point and spoiled strike.

[Geraaltix]

I just thought I might add in that DE never intended to release Primed Pressure Point. They aren't going to fix it when it shouldn't have existed in the first place.

[Azrael]

23 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

"Having 220% for melee is OP". Meanwhile, shotguns smile while using primed point blank. You think primed point blank is not OP?

Melee is the strongest weapon category in the game, and was op before PPP was a thing. If the drain bothers you, and you want a mid-ranked one to avoid forma, just use normal PP! What's wrong with that? What would be the point in buying and ranking a primed mod just to keep it at the same level as the regular version? Why even bother with it at all, then?

[Omnimorph]

On 16 September 2016 at 1:52 PM, DEADSHOT456 said:

What I am talking about is -

• A R7 Legendary mod is worse than a R5 Normal mod. That is not ok. Argue all you want, but when 7 ranks of a legendary mod can not equal the benefit of 5 ranks of normal mod, there is a problem. I don't care if the maxed legendary mod beats the normal mod, it is obvious. What I do care about is that the choice to rank up the legendary mod up to R6 or R7 exists, but do not offer any benefit, rather, is worse than the R5 normal mod.
• For achieving the same bonus, a legendary mod costs more mod points than a normal mod. (Obviously neglecting the Endo here).

 

I'm not seeing a problem.  They have to set the ceiling for the mod's power however it has to be set to make the thing not too OP, whatever endo-to-power rating falls below that level is neither here nor there. 

Nobody is going to use PPP until it's got a higher percentage than PP anyway, and if you don't have the drain for it then just use PP until you do.

You're making it seem like people are being cheated, but they're not being cheated out of anything, at max fusion PPP is more powerful than PP, and that's the only thing that matters here.

[DEADSHOT456]

5 hours ago, Omnimorph said:

I'm not seeing a problem.  They have to set the ceiling for the mod's power however it has to be set to make the thing not too OP, whatever endo-to-power rating falls below that level is neither here nor there. 

Nobody is going to use PPP until it's got a higher percentage than PP anyway, and if you don't have the drain for it then just use PP until you do.

You're making it seem like people are being cheated, but they're not being cheated out of anything, at max fusion PPP is more powerful than PP, and that's the only thing that matters here.

Since you necro'ed the thread up, I would suggest you to go read all my posts here to understand why the concept "Only MAX rank matters" is wrong.

It is not the matter of "using only MAX PPP". It is the matter of a Rank 6 or even 7 mod being worse than an exact same mod with a different color at Rank 5.

Tell me, have you ever seen a Rank X common item being better than a Rank X Legendary item in ANY game? I haven't.

Hell, even the majority of the primed mods do not follow that trend. Only 2 out of ~20 primed mods follow this weird trend in the name of balance.

Except Primed Pistol Gambit and PPP, every SINGLE primed mod at Rank 6 is better than it's normal counterpart at Rank 5. At least Primed Pistol Gambit has an explanation for being worse than its normal counterpart at same rank since it costs less mod points at that rank.

PPP does not have any logical explanation.

5 hours ago, Omnimorph said:

Nobody is going to use PPP until it's got a higher percentage than PP anyway,

You are talking about the effect here, I am talking about the cause. I hope you understand the difference.

You are saying that people would never use a Rank 7 PPP. Exactly. I am just talking about why people would not use a Rank 7 PPP.

And no, don't talk about everyone. People are free to choose a mod rank of their choice.

On 9/18/2016 at 9:58 AM, Lord_Azrael said:

Melee is the strongest weapon category in the game, and was op before PPP was a thing. If the drain bothers you, and you want a mid-ranked one to avoid forma, just use normal PP! What's wrong with that? What would be the point in buying and ranking a primed mod just to keep it at the same level as the regular version? Why even bother with it at all, then?

You know you quoted me out of the context? This is not like you. I haven't seen you do that.

Anyway, if you read further, I already said that I do not want DE to buff PPP to 220%. I know that would be OP.

And I never said to keep PPP at Rank 5, it was just comparison. But, if someone decides to level it to Rank 7, should it not provide the benefits? I mean the player spent the resources to level it after all.

And please, for the love of PPP, don't start the argument of "But it should be good at max rank". Please don't. Rank 6 Primed Continuity is better than Rank 5 Continuity. So, is every other Rank 6 Primed mod when compared to its Rank 5 counterpart. The only exceptions are Primed Pistol Gambit and PPP. But at least, Primed Pistol Gambit has an explanation to it.

All I want is to do the same they did to Primed Pistol Gambit. Just make the base mod point cost of PPP to be 2. The maxed PPP with then cost 12 mod points instead of 14, exactly like Primed Pistol Gambit.

Reducing 2 mod points does not make PPP anymore OP tahn it already is, but it at least adds an explanation as to why PPP gives less stat than PP at the same rank. Because it costs less.

Call me annoying, but I find it hard to overlook something without any logical explanation, especially, when it is the odd one out of the bunch of primed mods.

[Inarticulate]

3 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

It is not the matter of "using only MAX PPP". It is the matter of a Rank 6 or even 7 mod being worse than an exact same mod with a different color at Rank 5.

Tell me, have you ever seen a Rank X common item being better than a Rank X Legendary item in ANY game? I haven't.

I present to you Exhibit A:

• Point Strike, rank 5
  Common, 9 drain, +150% critical chance
• Critical Delay, rank 5
  Rare, 9 drain, +45% critical chance, -36% fire rate

I also present to you Exhibit B:

• Deathprize, the Gendrome sword and shield from Monster Hunter Generations
  Rare 1 (out of 8), easily a contender for top 5 among sword and shields

I would also like to argue that "common" and "legendary" are not indicative of strength or usefulness in any degree. There is a strong correlation, but by no means is it absolute. The labels are an indication of rarity, no more and no less.

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

You know you quoted me out of the context? This is not like you. I haven't seen you do that.

Anyway, if you read further, I already said that I do not want DE to buff PPP to 220%. I know that would be OP.

okay, fair enough.

 

8 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

All I want is to do the same they did to Primed Pistol Gambit. Just make the base mod point cost of PPP to be 2. The maxed PPP with then cost 12 mod points instead of 14, exactly like Primed Pistol Gambit.

I think they were trying to make it look like the other damage mods. Serration, Primed Point Blank, And hornet strike all cost 14 points. All but hornet strike give +165%. I don't know why hornet strike is so high, but other than that PPP fits right in with those mods. Primed pistol gambit, on the other hand, give all sorts of weird numbers, with +187% crit chance for 12 drain.

 

12 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

It is not the matter of "using only MAX PPP". It is the matter of a Rank 6 or even 7 mod being worse than an exact same mod with a different color at Rank 5.

Okay, but game balance does have to revolve around the final stats. That doesn't mean they can make the intermediate stats stupid (by, for example, making it not improve at all for the first few levels), but the final stats is where potential imbalances come into play. Sure, you can keep your zenurik energy passive at rank 2 if you want, but if it's overpowered at max rank then it has to be changed. I get what you're saying, and I realize you aren't asking for a damage buff. But at max rank it's consistent with the other damage mods. Actually, the real culprit here is the regular pressure point. It's 120% instead of 90%! That may have been a mistake on DE's part, and now they pay for it by reducing the base value of PPP to where PP should have been. At least, that's a different perspective for you, if you like.

 

Look, if they dropped the drain on PPP I wouldn't be upset. I'm not saying I'm against this idea, only that I'm against being upset about it. If there are two models of lambo (don't ask me to spell it I'm not gonna try, it's that one italian car) and one is more expensive than the other for no reason, it's nothing to be upset about. It's a lambo! It's supposed to be stupidly expensive for no reason! To me, this just means that PPP is even more of a luxury item than PPB. Anyway, I'm glad I could be here to help you nekro the thread.  :)

[DEADSHOT456]

1 minute ago, Inarticulate said:

I present to you Exhibit A:

• Point Strike, rank 5
  Common, 9 drain, +150% critical chance
• Critical Delay, rank 5
  Rare, 9 drain, +45% critical chance, -36% fire rate

Good try, but does not count.

Corrupted mods are a special category of mods in this game.

It is like saying that Heavy calibur has a negative aspect despite being rare, but Serration does not.

PPP on the other hand, is just a PP with 10 ranks. It is not an entire different mod which follows an entire different logic.

14 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

I also present to you Exhibit B:

• Deathprize, the Gendrome sword and shield from Monster Hunter Generations
  Rare 1 (out of 8), easily a contender for top 5 among sword and shields

Now, let's see this.

I do not play Monster Hunter, so I researched around a bit and I came across this chart.

Now, I compared every single sword that has less Attack Power (but is Rare 2+) than Deathprize at level 5 or more, since Deathprize is the fifth level of Viperbite with Atk Pwr = 190.

And they all had an explanation as to why they had less Attack Power than Deathprize at same rank.

So, I researched a bit more and came across the explanation, which was hidden in those colorful bars in the above chart. Those bars showed damage multipliers(aka Sharpness).

Now the important part -

Deathprize did not have blue and the later multipliers without any modification. Now, I am assuming that this game allows to fit 2 gems(or something like that) to increase sharpness. Deathprize barely got some blue multiplier after slotting 2 "gems" or whatever they are called(I will refer to them as gems,  since I am a noob it that game).

Meanwhile, every single weapon that was Rare 2+ had better multiplier than Deathprize. And most of the Rare 8 weapons had the white multiplier which is the second highest multiplier.

So, this example failed as well.

Now, I have no idea how helpful multipliers are in Monster Hunters, although from my gaming experience, damage multipliers are always an important aspects that is considered in the DPS of a weapon.

Even if you say that damage multipliers are useless in Monster Hunters (which I doubt), my point still stands. There is always a logical explanation. There should always be one.

No matter how insignificant the multipliers are (which I doubt again, having seen the numbers), there is still an explanation that those Rare 8 level 10 weapons have 180 attack power but have higher multiplier.

59 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

I would also like to argue that "common" and "legendary" are not indicative of strength or usefulness in any degree. There is a strong correlation, but by no means is it absolute. The labels are an indication of rarity, no more and no less.

Are you talking about just Warframe? If yes, then -

What do you mean by rarity?

Rarity of what?

Of obtaining the said mod? If that is so, then why is Power Throw more common than Homing Fang? There are numerous such examples in Warframe.

Of power difference between common and rare and legendary mods? If that is so, then whats your point? Because I am arguing about the same exact thing here.

Of color? Then what's the point of having different rarity items? Just for the sake of visual difference? Both you and I know that is not the case.

 

If you are talking about all the games in general(which I think is not the case), then -

Research or play Blade and Soul. Stage 3 Legendary(Baleful/Sheraph) weapon is better than True Scorpion Stage 3 weapon. Hell, even Stage 1 Legendary is more powerful than Stage 10 True Scorpion.

[(PSN)mmcareen]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 3:57 PM, DEADSHOT456 said:

You do not need to hear that. Every single primed mod except Primed PP follows that trend

Actually Primed Pistol Gambit works the same way. 

Primed

Rank	Effect	Cost	Conclave
0	+17%	2	C5
1	+34%	3	C5
2	+51%	4	C6
3	+68%	5	C7
4	+85%	6	C8
5	+102%	7	C10
6	+119%	8	C10
7	+136%	9	C10
8	+153%	10	C10
9	+170%	11	C10
10	+187%	12	C10

Normal

Rank	Effect	Cost	Conclave
0	+20%	4	C5
1	+40%	5	C5
2	+60%	6	C6
3	+80%	7	C8
4	+100%	8	C9
5	+120%	9	C10

 

So this is not the first time they did that. 

[DEADSHOT456]

1 minute ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

Actually Primed Pistol Gambit works the same way. 

Primed

Rank	Effect	Cost	Conclave
0	+17%	2	C5
1	+34%	3	C5
2	+51%	4	C6
3	+68%	5	C7
4	+85%	6	C8
5	+102%	7	C10
6	+119%	8	C10
7	+136%	9	C10
8	+153%	10	C10
9	+170%	11	C10
10	+187%	12	C10

Normal

Rank	Effect	Cost	Conclave
0	+20%	4	C5
1	+40%	5	C5
2	+60%	6	C6
3	+80%	7	C8
4	+100%	8	C9
5	+120%	9	C10

 

So this is not the first time they did that. 

No, it doesn't exactly. Read maybe? It does wonders.

Anyway, for your ease of access, my post from page 1 -

On 9/16/2016 at 10:39 AM, DEADSHOT456 said:

Yes, but in case you missed it, Primed Pistol Gambit costs less mod points for the same rank of Pistol Gambit.

So, if you have a Rank 5 Primed Pistol Gambit and a Rank 5 Pistol Gambit, Primed Pistol Gambit will give less crit chance, but will also cost less mod points. At rank 5, Pistol Gambit gives 120% crit and costs 9 mod points, while Prime Pistol Gambit gives 102% crit but costs 7 mod points.

As a matter of fact, for same mod point cost, lets say, 7 mod points, Primed PG will be better than PG, Primed PG giving 102% crit for 7 mod points while PG giving 80% crit for 7 mod points.

Primed Pistol Gambit is therefore, always better than Pistol Gambit when we consider equal mod point drain.

This is not the case for Prime Pressure Point and Pressure Point.

It is amusing that Primed PP is always worse than PP till Rank 7. And the fun does not stop there. At rank 7, Primed PP gives 120% damage and costs 11 mod points, while PP at Rank 5 gives 120% damage and costs 9 mod points.

So, yes, Primed PP does screw players if they can not afford to go to at least Rank 8.

I contacted Rebecca when Primed PP was released and she said that it is working as intended. So, yeah, we are stuck with the anomaly.

What I do not understand though is that why was it necessary to give Primed PP less damage per rank. If they were so concerned about melee being OP, why did they release Prime PP in the first place and decided to release a gimped version.

 

TL : DR - The explanation is in the Mod point cost at the same rank. Both Rank 5 - PG = Mod Point cost is 9 and stat is 120%. PPG = Mod point cost is 7 and stat is 102%.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I think they were trying to make it look like the other damage mods. Serration, Primed Point Blank, And hornet strike all cost 14 points. All but hornet strike give +165%. I don't know why hornet strike is so high, but other than that PPP fits right in with those mods. Primed pistol gambit, on the other hand, give all sorts of weird numbers, with +187% crit chance for 12 drain.

Maybe. I am glad that you provided somewhat a good explanation, like always.

But, and there is always a but. But if that is the case, why Primed mods?

If DE is trying to make them look similar, should they not be similar in rarity and Endo requirement as well?

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Actually, the real culprit here is the regular pressure point. It's 120% instead of 90%! That may have been a mistake on DE's part, and now they pay for it by reducing the base value of PPP to where PP should have been. At least, that's a different perspective for you, if you like.

I will be honest, I never did think it like that. Now, I do think that they need to change PP to 90%. That would automatically set things right.

But, oh boy, I can't imagine what will happen in the Forums. But I do wish DE changes it to 90% to remove the anomaly in the stat comparison between PPP and PP.

 

I suppose that's the end of discussion here.

Edited September 23, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[Heckzu]

43 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Maybe. I am glad that you provided somewhat a good explanation, like always.

But, and there is always a but. But if that is the case, why Primed mods?

If DE is trying to make them look similar, should they not be similar in rarity and Endo requirement as well?

I will be honest, I never did think it like that. Now, I do think that they need to change PP to 90%. That would automatically set things right.

But, oh boy, I can't imagine what will happen in the Forums. But I do wish DE changes it to 90% to remove the anomaly in the stat comparison between PPP and PP.

 

I suppose that's the end of discussion here.

Pressure Point used to be +7% per rank with a total of +42% at max rank. It was buffed to the +20% it is now because it was abysmal compared to other weapons' counterparts.

Primed Pressure Point was never meant to be released so it's not going to be touched. Be glad DE didn't recall all of its copies.

[Heckzu]

43 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Maybe. I am glad that you provided somewhat a good explanation, like always.

But, and there is always a but. But if that is the case, why Primed mods?

If DE is trying to make them look similar, should they not be similar in rarity and Endo requirement as well?

I will be honest, I never did think it like that. Now, I do think that they need to change PP to 90%. That would automatically set things right.

But, oh boy, I can't imagine what will happen in the Forums. But I do wish DE changes it to 90% to remove the anomaly in the stat comparison between PPP and PP.

 

I suppose that's the end of discussion here.

Pressure Point used to be +7% per rank with a total of +42% at max rank. It was buffed to the +20% it is now because it was abysmal compared to other weapons' counterparts.

Primed Pressure Point was never meant to be released so it's not going to be touched. Be glad DE didn't recall all of its copies.

[Heckzu]

On 9/16/2016 at 8:52 AM, DEADSHOT456 said:

Good. Then stop arguing on speculations and self-made rules and logic. Since it is nowhere written that Primed Mods should be good only at MAX ranks(and which is also not true for every other Primed mod), it is perfectly fine if someone decides to rank up his/her Primed PP up to R6 or R7 and they should be rewarded with appropriate bonus(either more damage or less mod point cost like Primed pistol gambit) for ranking up the mod.

I can clearly see that you either do not understand my point or you are just ignoring it. So, I will stop after this reply -

I am not talking about -

• Primed PP is powerful once it surpasses PP. That's obvious and I am not stupid.
• I am not talking about using Forma or not. I do not know why you keep mentioning the fact that we need to forma. We need to forma even without Primed PP.

What I am talking about is -

• A R7 Legendary mod is worse than a R5 Normal mod. That is not ok. Argue all you want, but when 7 ranks of a legendary mod can not equal the benefit of 5 ranks of normal mod, there is a problem. I don't care if the maxed legendary mod beats the normal mod, it is obvious. What I do care about is that the choice to rank up the legendary mod up to R6 or R7 exists, but do not offer any benefit, rather, is worse than the R5 normal mod.
• For achieving the same bonus, a legendary mod costs more mod points than a normal mod. (Obviously neglecting the Endo here).

Not at all. I am not judging the Primed mods on the basis of what they can do. I am merely comparing the pattern they follow. The effect that the Primed mods have does not matter in such a scenario, since if that was the case, then Primed Pistol Gambit and Primed Target Cracker would be the ones that would have been nerfed heavily since they provide bonuses Primed PP can't even think of.

Not exactly. While it is true that it is the devs decide things about a game, it does not mean the game should be riddled with inconsistencies in data with making any sense whatsoever, which is exactly the case in Warframe.

Even the most recent update shows a huge inconsistency -

Vaykor Hek can not use the Syndicate mod for Hek, yet, Rakta Dark Dagger can use the syndicate mod for Dark Dagger. Logic?

As for this part - I am sorry to say this, but you have absolutely ZERO idea about what you are saying. I am going to leave out Tonkor(Grenade launcher) and Tigris(Shotgun) since I was talking about Rifles.

Now let's take Soma Prime and Boltor Prime, that you have mentioned and those are indeed top-tier 'rifles'.

• I have used a build with which I could get the highest DPS. Feel free to add/remove mods to make the DPS higher.

1. Boltor Prime - Sustained DPS = 13.5k and Burst DPS = 23.7k.
2. Soma Prime - Sustained DPS = 17.5k and Burst DPS = 22.7k.

• Now Secondary -

1.  Akstiletto Prime - Sustained DPS = 29.5k and Burst DPS = 38.7k.
2.  Brakk - Sustained DPS = 43.7k and Burst DPS = 113.8k(Yep, it is indeed 100k+)
3.  Lex Prime - Sustained DPS = 33.7k and Burst DPS = 66.2k.
4. Mara Detron - Sustained DPS = 19.6k and Burst DPS = 36.2k.
5. Twin Grakata - Sustained DPS = 16.2k and Burst DPS = 42k.
6. Vaykor Marelok - Sustained DPS = 29.5k and Burst DPS = 45.6k.

 

But actual DPS values aside, it doesn't take a genius to understand the simple fact that it something has more damage than a Boltor Prime and its mods also give much more damage compared to rifle mods, the DPS will be higher.

Primed mods are for min-maxers. 40k endo isn't a small amount for most players. The only players who can easily max rank primed mods are experienced players who min-max everything they use, who usually don't care too much if they need to use more forma since it's the performance they care about.

Your weapon builds for the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime are terrible, they don't come close to the max DPS. And on-paper values don't hold as much value as actual in game performance since you aren't likely to fire a semi auto at its max fire rate and weapons like the Brakk have fall off damage, and in general secondaries are used to burst since their magazine size or firing time is usually low.

As for how Hornet Strike has 220% damage whereas everything else has 165%, pistols don't have a viable corrupted damage mod (Magnum Force's +66% vs. Heavy Caliber's +165%). Serration+Heavy Caliber+Split Chamber gives an average of +627% ((165+165)*(1+0.9)) damage while Hornet Strike+Barrel Diffusion+Lethal Torrent gives an average of +616% (220*(1+(1.2+0.6))) damage.

[Inarticulate]

54 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

-Monster Hunter-

 

You've missed every reason why the Deathprize is considered a top-5 weapon, but I won't blame you because the game has a lot of skills and other game mechanics that need to be considered when building a weapon-armor combination.

The Deathprize is weaker in terms of damage compared to many of the higher-rarity weapons. Its 190 attack is below average for a final-form weapon with base green sharpness, but damage is not the reason the Deathprize is considered a top-5 weapon. What makes it stand out is its massive 30 Paralysis damage, which allows you to paralyze a monster multiple times (a big deal) during a hunt, leaving it defenseless for you and the rest of your party to beat up on. The Deathprize is literally the Paralysis weapon in Monster Hunter Generations. To seal the deal, despite having "below average" attack overall, it's actually well above average when specifically considering status weapons, which are typically much weaker to balance out their utility or have reasonable attack, but very little status damage.

The point, though, is that the Deathprize is rated at a rarity of 1. This means that crafting and upgrading it uses parts from easier monsters and has minimal material requirements from endgame-tier monsters. Despite its low rarity rating, it beats out the vast majority of rare-6, 7, and X weapons to secure a spot on the top 5.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Good try, but does not count.

Corrupted mods are a special category of mods in this game.

It is like saying that Heavy calibur has a negative aspect despite being rare, but Serration does not.

PPP on the other hand, is just a PP with 10 ranks. It is not an entire different mod which follows an entire different logic.

I'm not even counting the purely negative aspect of Critical Delay. Critical Delay itself is equal or worse (and significantly worse at that) than Point Strike at all ranks in every one of its stats.

Also, there's no reason why a corrupted mod should be treated any differently than an other rare mod. The only real difference is that they are obtained in a different manner.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Are you talking about just Warframe? If yes, then -

What do you mean by rarity?

Rarity of what?

Of obtaining the said mod? If that is so, then why is Power Throw more common than Homing Fang? There are numerous such examples in Warframe.

Of power difference between common and rare and legendary mods? If that is so, then whats your point? Because I am arguing about the same exact thing here.

Of color? Then what's the point of having different rarity items? Just for the sake of visual difference? Both you and I know that is not the case.

Mod rarity in Warframe specifically determines exactly two things:

1. Its drop rate on enemies that have the mod in its drop table, and
2. The cost to rank the mod up (and as a corollary, how much it contributes to ranking up other mods).

There is no reason to believe that a rare mod should be stronger or weaker than a common mod.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

If you are talking about all the games in general(which I think is not the case), then -

Research or play Blade and Soul. Stage 3 Legendary(Baleful/Sheraph) weapon is better than True Scorpion Stage 3 weapon. Hell, even Stage 1 Legendary is more powerful than Stage 10 True Scorpion.

Anyone with a degree in mathematics (and other disciplines that deal with the nuances of logic) would be able to tell you that an example that satisfies your assertion is useless in proving that the converse and inverse of your assertion are false.

Right now, the burden of proof is on you to show that something that is rarer (by really any relevant definition of "rare") must be necessarily better than something that is less rare.

[DEADSHOT456]

9 hours ago, Heckzu said:

Primed Pressure Point was never meant to be released so it's not going to be touched. Be glad DE didn't recall all of its copies.

Why should I be glad? If PPP was not supposed to be released but was released, its DE's problem and lack of communication. This does not concern me as a player.

And it was not like a leak. It was officially released by Sheldon.

9 hours ago, Heckzu said:

Primed mods are for min-maxers. 40k endo isn't a small amount for most players. The only players who can easily max rank primed mods are experienced players who min-max everything they use, who usually don't care too much if they need to use more forma since it's the performance they care about.

As usual, "only good at MAX rank" argument. I am not even going to provide an explanation to this. If you need an explanation, go read my other posts in the thread.

@Lord_Azrael was the only one who provided me the actual reason for this anomaly in stats and I agreed with him/her.

9 hours ago, Heckzu said:

Your weapon builds for the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime are terrible, they don't come close to the max DPS.

Go ahead, provide your own build.

9 hours ago, Heckzu said:

And on-paper values don't hold as much value as actual in game performance since you aren't likely to fire a semi auto at its max fire rate and weapons like the Brakk have fall off damage, and in general secondaries are used to burst since their magazine size or firing time is usually low.

Exactly. That is exactly why using a max Heavy Caliber is a terrible idea, like you have compared below. Maxed Heavy Caliber will increase DPS on paper, but in actual gameplay scenario, the terrible accuracy will result in missed shots. Well done, you contradicted your own reasoning.

Also, since there is no way to prove actual gameplay scenarios, we have to go by on-paper values. Because when you say that on-paper values are different from ingame scenarios, it is equally true for both Soma and Akstiletto.

As for Semi-auto weapons, tell that to Akstiletto Prime. It's not Semi-auto. Or Twin Grakata.

Also, go on. Compare the best semi-auto primary with Brakk or Lex Prime. Latron Prime or Wraith maybe? Go ahead.

As for sustained DPS and burst DPS, you should know that burst DPS is more important in Warframe. No one fires 100 Soma bullets at a time in Warframe, unless you are playing at level 500, where you probably might not even survive long enough to fire all 100 bullets. (The only exceptions here would be Ignis and Phage, since many people just spray and prey with it).

Warframe is more about Burst DPS. In other games, sustained DPS matters during a boss fight, but in Warframe, even boss fights are dependent of burst DPS. OHK Lephatis heads with a Tigris? Burst DPS. OHK Sargus Ruk weakpoint? Burst DPS.

9 hours ago, Heckzu said:

As for how Hornet Strike has 220% damage whereas everything else has 165%, pistols don't have a viable corrupted damage mod (Magnum Force's +66% vs. Heavy Caliber's +165%). Serration+Heavy Caliber+Split Chamber gives an average of +627% ((165+165)*(1+0.9)) damage while Hornet Strike+Barrel Diffusion+Lethal Torrent gives an average of +616% (220*(1+(1.2+0.6))) damage.

How convenient for you to not include the stats of Magnum Force in the calculations for secondary damage while adding Heavy Caliber to primary damage. Did you think I wouldn't notice?

Add that base 66% and see for yourself which is more. Secondary comes out to be 800% ((220+66)*(1+(1.2+0.6))). That's a whole 173% more.

Tell me again how Secondaries need that 220% Hornet Strike?

8 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

-Deathprize-

 

8 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

Anyone with a degree in mathematics (and other disciplines that deal with the nuances of logic) would be able to tell you that an example that satisfies your assertion is useless in proving that the converse and inverse of your assertion are false.

Right now, the burden of proof is on you to show that something that is rarer (by really any relevant definition of "rare") must be necessarily better than something that is less rare.

The answer to both of these are connected.

It is true that I have no practical knowledge about Monster Hunter since I do not play that game.

Ok, let's say that Deathprize is good because of 30 Para. Because obviously, CC wins. Now, I have no idea if it is indeed the best thing in that game, because I saw quite a few other effects. So, I am going to go by what you are saying.

Even then, Deathprize is the only one out of all those weapons, that is out of ordinary. It is an anomaly in this case.

And quoting your own words " Anyone with a degree in mathematics (and other disciplines that deal with the nuances of logic) "  would be able to tell you that the anomaly/odd one out is never used for mathematical purposes. The anomaly is rectified in most scientific researches, which the game developers has not done. No one says "that datum out of 50 data is the one to follow".

As for the proof, you yourself have given me the proof - Every weapon except Deathprize follows the trend that Rarer is Better. Now if you decide to stick with the one weapon that is clearly OP for its rarity, then you have proven me wrong. But you and I, both know that when we consider the all the weapons, Deathprize is the odd one out.

For someone who talked about mathematics, I hope you are better than "sticking to odd one out to be right".

I will admit that in the heat of the moment, I did say to provide me with just one example, which did prove to be counter productive for me since most games probably has one or two anomalies like Deathprize, but none of the games follow a trend where common items are better than rare items in general.

8 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

I'm not even counting the purely negative aspect of Critical Delay. Critical Delay itself is equal or worse (and significantly worse at that) than Point Strike at all ranks in every one of its stats.

Also, there's no reason why a corrupted mod should be treated any differently than an other rare mod. The only real difference is that they are obtained in a different manner.

There is a major reason why a corrupted mod should be treated as a special case.

You can not use both PPP and PP, because they are considered the same mods with different color and number of ranks.

Critical Delay, or any corrupted mod for that matter, can be used along with their other normal counterpart. That is exactly why they either have very low benefits or have huge negatives.

So, no. The only difference is not how they are obtained. That is not even the major difference. The major difference is the one I described above and that is why they should be treated differently.

8 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

Mod rarity in Warframe specifically determines exactly two things:

1. Its drop rate on enemies that have the mod in its drop table, and

I would have agreed to this if Primed mods, which are categorized as Legendary, dropped from enemies. But they don't. This argument about drop table does not stand true when Primed mods are the subject of discussion.

8 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

The cost to rank the mod up (and as a corollary, how much it contributes to ranking up other mods).

That is one of the reasons.

8 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

There is no reason to believe that a rare mod should be stronger or weaker than a common mod.

There is no official statement that says that rare mods should not be stronger. Since there are no official evidence, neither your claim nor mine is absolute.

However, your claim originates from anomalies like PPP (or rather PP, as agreed in my previous post to this one) and Primed Pistol Gambit.

My claim originates from the trend followed by all other Primed mods except PPP and PPG.

Which do you think would I follow as the main idea and which do you think would I request DE to fix?

You would understand I suppose.

 

Having said all that, I would like to end this discussion -

I was not wrong in saying that there is an anomaly between PP and PPP, but I was wrong in thinking that PPP is the problem here. As @Lord_Azrael have pointed out, it is PP that is the problem here. PP should have 90% damage, just like Point Blank, instead of 120%.

Edited September 24, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[Heckzu]

50 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

That is exactly why using a max Heavy Caliber is a terrible idea, like you have compared below. Maxed Heavy Caliber will increase DPS on paper, but in actual gameplay scenario, the terrible accuracy will result in missed shots. Well done, you contradicted your own reasoning.

The accuracy loss is negligible on rapid fire weapons since you're not relying on single accurate shots, and some weapons aren't affected by it, such as the Opticor or Synoid Simulor. 

 

52 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

How convenient for you to not include the stats of Magnum Force in the calculations for secondary damage while adding Heavy Caliber to primary damage. Did you think I wouldn't notice?

Add that base 66% and see for yourself which is more. Secondary comes out to be 800% ((220+66)*(1+(1.2+0.6))). That's a whole 173% more.

Serration + Heavy Caliber + Split Chamber are considered the 3 staple mods for primary weapons, and Hornet Strike + Barrel Diffusion + Lethal Torrent are considered the 3 staple mods for secondary mods. You have 8 slots on a weapon, 3 are taken by the said mods, and if the weapon is crit based, then there's 2 more mods needed for crit chance + crit damage. I didn't count in Magnum Force because it isn't a staple mod, and it's deemed as one of the worst mods since it has 10 ranks with an abysmal +6% each rank, which makes it provide less damage increase than an elemental +90% mod, which only has 5 ranks. If you put in Magnum Force, you're wasting mod capacity and losing out on potential damage.

 

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

it is PP that is the problem here. PP should have 90% damage, just like Point Blank, instead of 120%.

Prior to the Shadow Debt mods' release, melee was lackluster and nonviable because it was weak, slow, and true steel is a measly +60% crit chance in comparison to Point Strike's +150% or Pistol Gambit's +120%. Blunderbuss has +90% crit chance, but Vaykor Hek is relatively new, so there was no shotgun that could effectively make use of a crit build until recently so this mod was mostly unused. Pressure Point was buffed to +120% from +42% during Update 9 because melee was weak and even then, melee remained weak until the Shadow Debt mods were released during Update 18, which was when melee enthusiastic builds became able to outshine gun play thanks to upward scaling damage and sustain from Life Strike. There was no reason to nerf Pressure Point since the Shadow Debt mods mostly only affected the melee weapons with 20+% crit chance, and nerfing it would make non-crit melee weapons even less viable.

[DEADSHOT456]

7 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

The accuracy loss is negligible on rapid fire weapons since you're not relying on single accurate shots, and some weapons aren't affected by it, such as the Opticor or Synoid Simulor. 

Accuracy loss is NOT negligible. It does result in lower DPS. It is just that the difference is not felt for auto-fire weapons in practical usage. That does not MEAN that it is negligible.

And I was comparing rifles in my original post. I was not talking about AoE launchers.

10 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

Serration + Heavy Caliber + Split Chamber are considered the 3 staple mods for primary weapons,

Who decided that Heavy Caliber is a staple mod? You?

I have met a very large number of people who keep Heavy Caliber at lower ranks in auto weapons because they do not like the loss in accuracy. And I have met many more who do not like to use Heavy Caliber at all.

Even when I tried out a maxed Heavy Caliber of Boltor Prime, I did not like it at all. It became near useless at anything more than low mid-range.

As for Magnum Force, no I do not use it. But you weren't really comparing what people used. You can't really, different people use different set up.

But you HAVE to include all basic damage mods when you are comparing only Basic damage. You can not leave out a basic damage mod just because YOU think one is a staple mod and other isn't.

Because if you are going to compare essential mods only needed for that particular weapon, then you need to consider the whole build and not just basic damage mods.

Anyway, since you did not provide me any build, I made one with maxed heavy caliber, that resembles of what you are pointing at.

Soma Prime with Maxed Heavy Caliber - Sustained DPS = 26.5k and Burst DPS = 32.5k.

It still cannot beat Akstiletto Prime, even with its terrible accuracy thanks maxed HC, which is so not a staple mod (Key point to keep in mind is the fact that accuracy is not taken into account here when calculating DPS, so needless to say that your actual DPS would be even lower due to missed shots solely due to HC) -

Akstiletto Prime - Sustained DPS - 29.5k and Burst DPS = 38.6k. Beating Soma Prime by a good margin with much better accuracy as well as status chance.

 

LOOK, DON'T JUST TALK. IF YOU CAN NOT PROVIDE ME A SOMA PRIME BUILD THAT IS BOTH USEFUL AND BEATS AKSTILETTO PRIME DPS BY A GOOD MARGIN, THERE IS NO POINT IN TRYING.

I am providing you with data. You are only talking big and trying too hard. Unless you can back up your talk with actual data, there is no point in continuing this discussion. (Although this was never the discussion, but whatever).

43 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

Prior to the Shadow Debt mods' release, melee was lackluster and nonviable because it was weak, slow,

Absolutely not. The only melees that suffered were crit melees. Melee might not be as good as guns, but it was viable enough.

All Blood Rush and PPP did was make it OP.

And I don't care what DE did in U9. The game changed a lot after that. A lot of balances were made. Therefore, DE should have changed PP to 90% when they released PPP.

Even if I agree to what you say that melee was underpowered earlier, the scenario has changed. And therefore, now it is perfectly fine to remove the anomaly between PP and PPP stat. That is exactly what I am suggesting here.

It has nothing to do with what DE did to PP in U9. Talk about the present scenario.

[Inarticulate]

2 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Even then, Deathprize is the only one out of all those weapons, that is out of ordinary. It is an anomaly in this case.

The Rare 1 Fighter Sword easily makes it into the top 10 among Sword and Shields. The Rare 3 Bow of Light and Courage is by a huge margin the best Bow in the game.

2 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

And quoting your own words " Anyone with a degree in mathematics (and other disciplines that deal with the nuances of logic) "  would be able to tell you that the anomaly/odd one out is never used for mathematical purposes. The anomaly is rectified in most scientific researches, which the game developers has not done. No one says "that datum out of 50 data is the one to follow".

As for the proof, you yourself have given me the proof - Every weapon except Deathprize follows the trend that Rarer is Better. Now if you decide to stick with the one weapon that is clearly OP for its rarity, then you have proven me wrong. But you and I, both know that when we consider the all the weapons, Deathprize is the odd one out.

For someone who talked about mathematics, I hope you are better than "sticking to odd one out to be right".

In mathematics and in logic, a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove an argument. When you make an argument in absolutes, this is the relevant discipline.

In statistics, you can argue a counterexample to be an outlier if you can show that the data point is an anomaly. I have already shown that the Deathprize is not an anomaly; others do follow its example, and I have certainly not given an exhaustive list.

2 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

I will admit that in the heat of the moment, I did say to provide me with just one example, which did prove to be counter productive for me since most games probably has one or two anomalies like Deathprize, but none of the games follow a trend where common items are better than rare items in general.

Except that I am not arguing that there is a trend that common items are better than rare items in general. I am arguing that the rarity of items does not necessarily correlate with how good the item is.

2 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

So, no. The only difference is not how they are obtained. That is not even the major difference. The major difference is the one I described above and that is why they should be treated differently.

You are putting words into my mouth.

The difference between corrupted mods and other rare mods is how they are obtained. This assertion makes zero reference to the difference between Primed Pressure Point and Pressure Point.

Using the argument that Point Strike and Critical Delay can be used together, but Primed Pressure Point and Pressure Point cannot, is relevant and valid, even if I feel you are weighting this criterion too heavily. Using the argument that Critical Delay is a corrupted mod, but Primed Pressure Point is not, is not because "corrupted mod" is nothing more than a label.

2 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

There is no official statement that says that rare mods should not be stronger. Since there are no official evidence, neither your claim nor mine is absolute.

However, your claim originates from anomalies like PPP (or rather PP, as agreed in my previous post to this one) and Primed Pistol Gambit.

My claim originates from the trend followed by all other Primed mods except PPP and PPG.

Which do you think would I follow as the main idea and which do you think would I request DE to fix?

You would understand I suppose.

My claim originates from the fact that there are now two anomalous mods. I assert that their anomalous behavior is fully intentional and that the intention is to keep the mods balanced at max rank because this balance is more important to game design than this particular case of numerical consistency.

[DEADSHOT456]

31 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

In mathematics and in logic, a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove an argument. When you make an argument in absolutes, this is the relevant discipline.

I already agreed that I have put an axe in my own foot by talking about absolutes.

31 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

In statistics, you can argue a counterexample to be an outlier if you can show that the data point is an anomaly. I have already shown that the Deathprize is not an anomaly; others do follow its example, and I have certainly not given an exhaustive list.

As for this, it is still the same. You can give me examples of 2, maybe 3 swords from a list of ~50 swords, 2-3 bows from ~bows and so on.

But as you said yourself, those are still anomalies.

When we take 50 readings in a laboratory experiment, we either discard anomalous values or proceed to do more tests to rectify the anomalies. We don't just keep the anomalies, because they can be catastrophic. Now, obviously, it won't be catastrophic here because it is a video game, but my point is that anomalies should be fixed when possible.

31 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

Using the argument that Point Strike and Critical Delay can be used together, but Primed Pressure Point and Pressure Point cannot, is relevant and valid,

When I said Corrupted mods(what else am I supposed to call them?), I wasn't referring to how or why they are called corrupted mods. I was referring to how they follow different trend in the modding system, which should have been apparent from my post, especially with the Serration and HC example. But anyway, I hope it is clear now.

31 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

My claim originates from the fact that there are now two anomalous mods.

Why are you repeating what I said? Weird...

31 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

I assert that their anomalous behavior is fully intentional and that the intention is to keep the mods balanced at max rank because this balance is more important to game design than this particular case of numerical consistency.

That does not justify anomalies when there are ways to fix the anomalies. Which brings me to your next point about the importance of balance -

If you took the time to actually read the thread, you would know that in multiple posts I said that I did not want 220% on PPP. All I wanted was PPP to have an explanation as to why it was worse than PP at certain levels and therefore suggested to reduce the base mod point cost of PPP to 2, thus making maxed PPP cost 12 mod points instead of 14, just like PPG. I am 100% sure that reducing 2 mods points would not have made PPP anymore more OP than it already is.

If you read further, you would see that I agreed to the explanation provided by Lord_Azrael that PPP was not the problem, but instead PP was the culprit here. And so, I replaced my original suggestion by suggesting to just reduce PP to 90%, exactly like Point Blank. That would automatically remove the anomaly.

But then again, reading is always a pain, right? All people want is to jump right into the discussion after reading one post and disregarding the whole conservation that was happening, forcing me to repeat the same things like a broken record.

Edited September 24, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[Katinka]

If DE consider 120% extra damage on a melee weapon for 9 points balanced but anything higher than that to need to pay a premium (12 points for 135%, 13 points for 150% and 14 points for 165%) then I can accept that.  The relative ranks of the mods don't matter much to me as they are just arbitrary numbers.  What matters is the actual effect, how it multiplies with other damage bonuses and the cost to achieve that.  If they think damage above 120% requires a larger investment of Credits, Endo and mod energy then so be it.

At the end of the day, my melee weapon has 70 points to spend on 8 mods (with Catalyst and correct polarity for Stance).  That means I can spend an average of 8.75 points per mod.  Pressure Point I might get away with not polarising for if I have enough low cost mods but Primed Pressure Point at 14 or 12 will still always be something I'd use Forma for at which point it costs 7 or would cost 6 (if reduced to match Primed Pistol Gambit).  I think I'll cope with out that one point.

[Azrael]

6 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

The difference between corrupted mods and other rare mods is how they are obtained

Huh? Corrupted mods are fundamentally different, being the only mods that negatively impact stats. They use a completely different philosophy. How they are obtained is simply a reflection of that fact. 

 

6 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

I already agreed that I have put an axe in my own foot by talking about absolutes

This is an unusual phrase but I love it. 

 

I can't even tell what we're arguing about anymore. Does anybody know? Why are we talking about heavy caliber? 

[DEADSHOT456]

31 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

This is an unusual phrase but I love it. 

I wondered why it seemed unusual to you, so I searched about it. LMAO, I couldn't find such idiom in English. It is the same as shot myself in the foot. The thing I wrote is actually an idiom in my native language and I just wrote it in English. No wonder it unusual. XD

34 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I can't even tell what we're arguing about anymore. Does anybody know? Why are we talking about heavy caliber? 

Lol. Even I do not know that. This thread is a great pass time for me now.

[(XBOX)Beck117]

On 23/09/2016 at 7:46 PM, Inarticulate said:

 

• Deathprize, the Gendrome sword and shield from Monster Hunter Generations
  Rare 1 (out of 8), easily a contender for top 5 among sword and shields

Everyone knows Aeriel Style GS is king :)