How to make pvp more appealing

[(PSN)Radek-98]

Conclave is fine, or at least to the people that actually invest time in it, apart from melee being a little unbalance, I love Warframe's PvP and the only change that I want is the balance of some things

Edited October 5, 2016 by (PS4)TheKiller9805

[(PSN)Radek-98]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

Practice is your solution.  It's what all of us "experienced" players did. 

People need to stop trying to change a game because they don't want to practice...that crap destroyed destiny because bungie listened to those cry babies. 

Judging by these posts nobody here but myself has been around all that long and doesn't appreciate where we are in the development of this game. 

1. Leave the diversity and combinations alone

2. Leave stamina gone....it was annoying and limited us. We adapted in conclave and matches are far more dangerous and faster

3. If i wanted to play overwatch.....id go play over watch. I want to play warframe

4. Except for melee at the moment everything is balanced. 

 

 

You, I like you

Preach those words.

[Nazrethim]

I would like to know why people say "melee is unbalanced". Granted, I know about the RMB Spam Kittag and some other quirks.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

I would like to know why people say "melee is unbalanced". Granted, I know about the RMB Spam Kittag and some other quirks.

Perhaps I can answer that. I play console and as you already know we are a little bit behind pc update speaking. 

So if my information is out of date I hope some of the pc guys can offer more up to date info. 

For us over here we have weapons that have these stun effects and knock down effects that make it next to impossible to fight back even for us who play it ever day. 

When you combine massive damage with stun effects it gives you almost a 100% chance of a kill. You get someone that can't aim or do anything but point in a general direction and just hit the same combo over and over again it's not surprising they go 15-0 by the end of the match. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

Perhaps I can answer that. I play console and as you already know we are a little bit behind pc update speaking. 

So if my information is out of date I hope some of the pc guys can offer more up to date info. 

For us over here we have weapons that have these stun effects and knock down effects that make it next to impossible to fight back even for us who play it ever day. 

When you combine massive damage with stun effects it gives you almost a 100% chance of a kill. You get someone that can't aim or do anything but point in a general direction and just hit the same combo over and over again it's not surprising they go 15-0 by the end of the match. 

Ah yes. That's still a thing. The Stagger is annoying as hell, and I'm a melee player myself, I suggested replacing it for an anti-bulletjump anti-WallLatch/AimGlide debuff of about 2s on hit, that way easy escapes are cut off but you are not stunned therefore you can use ground based dodges and/or counteratack, my idea is not very popular. Knockdowns aren't much of an issue as KDs in general throw you away from the melee player.

Well, that depends on weapon, Stanceless Polearms and Hammer and some other weapons RMB combo are very spammable. DE should add a slow hit at the end like they did with Sword&Shields  and Nikanas as a sort of "punishment" for mindlessly spamming.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Ah yes. That's still a thing. The Stagger is annoying as hell, and I'm a melee player myself, I suggested replacing it for an anti-bulletjump anti-WallLatch/AimGlide debuff of about 2s on hit, that way easy escapes are cut off but you are not stunned therefore you can use ground based dodges and/or counteratack, my idea is not very popular. Knockdowns aren't much of an issue as KDs in general throw you away from the melee player.

Well, that depends on weapon, Stanceless Polearms and Hammer and some other weapons RMB combo are very spammable. DE should add a slow hit at the end like they did with Sword&Shields  and Nikanas as a sort of "punishment" for mindlessly spamming.

I can deal with an encumbered (slow) status at least it gives me a chance to fight back like with guns even though u are being hit there is still a chance to fight back.  

 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

On 9/28/2016 at 4:50 PM, bernad2218 said:

How to make PVP more appealing:

1. Don't listen to people who never play it and act like they know stuff
2. Just don't
3. Especially people who just play it for farming skins


 

What if I actually Know my stuff and I agree with op.

 

Does this make me invalid?

[bernad2218]

2 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

What if I actually Know my stuff and I agree with op.

 

Does this make me invalid?

no you're Eureka.Seven

 

everyone knows E7 is special

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

18 hours ago, bernad2218 said:

no you're Eureka.Seven

 

everyone knows E7 is special

you can always look up my stats as credentials ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

special as in one of the very few conclave vets that still participate in these discussions and actually go against the grain, because the rest jumped ship?

 

Guess i'm special indeed

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[rockscl]

3 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

you can always look up my stats as credentials ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

special as in one of the very few conclave vets that still participate in these discussions and actually go against the grain, because the rest jumped ship?

 

Guess i'm special indeed

 

what you wanted to have happened in u18.2 and it killed more than half of the active pvp population

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Add Halo like Indiana Jones race types. Speed up Lunaro, add a giant ball to bounce around. As a PVE player I tried Lunaro, I really tried to play PVP and after four matches and being tossed in against 1 vs 3 I instantly understood why it was going to fail with the Warframe PVE community. I felt sooo slow and just found myself hating the experience.

But here's the thing I tried a faster experience in Strike Vector Ex, a hardcore PVP fighter mechjet game. And it's awesome. But nobody switches sides and everyone joins against the bots. The minute someone puts up a fight, everyone bails so they can find another group to fight the bots, so they can get the cosmetics...Seriously The Dev team of RageQuit should have just gone PVE, because dang the bots they put into the game are pretty good. Like the Quake Arena Bots of yesteryear good. 

I stopped playing Strike Vector Ex due to it just sorta boring the snot out of me due to the story and having to jump around Because I don't want to grind a 1000 matches between bots and try hards to unlock cosmetics, and the solo player mode doesn't get you anywhere and the story behind the protagonist is pretty lame.

Fun movement, but lackluster motivation to stick around. What this have to do with Warframe. I'd like to play PVP as a PVE player but I'd rather race somebody while avoiding some giant death ball. That game type was a blast in Halo 3 and Reach. 

 

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

4 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

you can always look up my stats as credentials ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

special as in one of the very few conclave vets that still participate in these discussions and actually go against the grain, because the rest jumped ship?

 

Guess i'm special indeed

 

Wouldn't say special. 

There are a few of us. I have a PC and Xbox profile. I spend more time in xbox than pc. 

A few of us switched to xbox and help out there. 

[Tradden]

On 9/28/2016 at 4:08 PM, motorfirebox said:

How to make PvP more appealing:

1. Put all the players on the same team

2. Add NPC enemies

I enjoy Rathuum as well

Edited October 8, 2016 by Tradden

[bernad2218]

6 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

you can always look up my stats as credentials ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

special as in one of the very few conclave vets that still participate in these discussions and actually go against the grain, because the rest jumped ship?

 

Guess i'm special indeed

 

special as in Eureka.seveN

no explanation needed, E7 is the man

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

22 hours ago, rockscl said:

what you wanted to have happened in u18.2 and it killed more than half of the active pvp population

Assuming that dividing by zero is a factor. it died mid 17. and then took whats left later on progressively.

To me it just seems that almost no one likes pvp, if you can even call the pvp player base substantial enough to be even considered a population. I would say more like a gathering. But people defend it here because they like it and it caters to the minority where it should be intended for everyone to enjoy.

On a tangent (nothing to do with you, but I used to hear it a lot) but i think maybe if we focused the discussion more on how to make the gamemode fun for everyone, rather than "oh the pve community does not like adversity/challenge etc.. thats why they don't play" maybe we would have better footing and a larger player base. Ik its hard for people to say that the game they like is broke, its a hard pill to swallow, like my relationship with halo reach. But its broke it doesn't work, its not fun.

[rockscl]

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Assuming that dividing by zero is a factor. it died mid 17. and then took whats left later on progressively.

 

K, but dont distort the reality, when u18.2 arrived, (were frames were like 1 EHP points from being cosmetic, mobility was plain and every primary weapon was so strong that even a latron could 2 shot with 1 headshot), all one had to do in order to play conclave at any time/day was to press a game mode and wait like 0.5 seconds, the population was actually in very healthy numbers so u18.2 ha a good base of players to be tested on, in the 7 days that u18.2 lasted everyone was gone leaving the population we have now which is reliable to play only at peak hours.

When you try to distort this truth you feed a pointless discussion that should have ended already, more so, you have been suggesting people to better play other games based on this negation.

 

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

To me it just seems that almost no one likes pvp, if you can even call the pvp player base substantial enough to be even considered a population. I would say more like a gathering. But people defend it here because they like it and it caters to the minority where it should be intended for everyone to enjoy.

On a tangent (nothing to do with you, but I used to hear it a lot) but i think maybe if we focused the discussion more on how to make the gamemode fun for everyone, rather than "oh the pve community does not like adversity/challenge etc.. thats why they don't play" maybe we would have better footing and a larger player base. Ik its hard for people to say that the game they like is broke, its a hard pill to swallow, like my relationship with halo reach. But its broke it doesn't work, its not fun.

Yes, i can tell that almost no one enjoys being placed from his day zero against players that leaves them no chance to do anything other than running for a few seconds, that happens in any single game i have played, when i played dota 1 and a team could rofl stomp the other most players just abandoned and looked for the next game, the same happened when i played cod2, the same in Unreal Tournament and Age of Empires, thats why i say now that, at least, we do know that this population doesnt like insane mobility with short time to kill, u18.2 has already proven that.

If we see this video:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

...we can see that unexperienced and low skill lobbies arent bad at all, people gets their kills, people can finish each other, etc, and that is because the skill level is plain and that as a consequence allows a better experience for everyone, in an environment were the skill gap is too high we will always experience the things you usually complain about (people escaping too easy, ttk being too long), but what i see in this video i could traduce it to my own experience against players around my same skill level and theres no difference, they cant escape from me if i get advantage, and i cant escape from them if they got advantage in the fight.

So while you call this system broken because its not fun, i call it broken because its based on ping affinity, period, even if the guy in this video starts ranting against the game because he thinks its a random clusterfuck, you can see thats hes having fun, and just like in every pvp game fun comes with anger, its normal, i havent seen a single pvp game were no oneever get upset, even if that one is having fun.

Now, please, remember what people said about Lunaro when it was launched?, a memory refresher, people said it was stupid fun, that they played it the entire day, etc, but after a time when the most skilled players learned the limits of the game mode, the thing turned exactly the same that conclave as in the best player can defeat other 4, giving them an awful experience.

So, resume, to make pvp more appealing the focus should be the hosting system, theres little less to judge until that happens because even in a supossedly low skill ceil game mode, the best player will not even allow the rest to play.

That, and, DE should have done a pve vs pve mode, that and a no bullet jump mode, both things will only bring new players.

Edited October 9, 2016 by rockscl

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

3 hours ago, rockscl said:

-snip-

you are conflating two different things and making invalid comparisons.

for example making the game mode appealing does not necessarily equate to making the game easier. People don't complain about conclave because it's hard. You hear the same things on reddit comments and video comments:

"cat and mouse"

"i dont like chasing for minuites on end"

There are some games where players of equal skill will go at it and 6 mins into the game only 7 people died. How does anyone consider this fun i dont know. But its the reality in this game type.

You compare games to dota 2, unrealtournament, old COD etc. But keep in mind that those games kept players playing their games. And look at COD, the connection quality in COD was S#&$ and it was still one of the most popular games in the franchise. UT and Dota (i dont like dota tbh) but these games may be brutal at first, it s conceptually easy to take in. Enough for the player to actually gain some enjoyment. Theres fun things to do in those games, those games are satisfying and enables a form of progressing for a newer player. 

When you are playing a game where people are flying all over the place and you get ganked, or you are shooting at someone for mins on end with no result. Who the hell is going to want to continue playing? Unless its armored core, no one.

When you have 3 weapons, a class and 3 different damage types to juggle all at once. Who wants to do that, who wants to play a game where so many factors are present to the point that its comical at best.

This is a convoluted game, just because you have all these different things that were shoehorned into the game does not make it complex, or interested. Its just adding for the sake of adding and you know that, we all know that , we have known this since update sixteen. There are games with loads of choices but all were cautiously and meticulously added into the game. Example Pre-Parity Black Light retribution, thats good and well done variety. Not this, convoluted game mode.

titan fall for example, when i picked up titan fall on day 1. I sucked at it, like most people. And many people kicked my &#!, but the game was fun and easy to grasp enough for me to keep playing Warframe does not provide that and the numbers can attest to that.\

Shooting games are for shooting people, not chasing them for 17 mins.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[rockscl]

Just now, Eureka.seveN said:

 

Despite a long post the spine always is the long ttk, and my opinion is that its a myth fueled by the limitless skill gap allowed by the matchmaking.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

3 hours ago, rockscl said:

Despite a long post the spine always is the long ttk, and my opinion is that its a myth fueled by the limitless skill gap allowed by the matchmaking.

TTK was not even vaguely mentioned in the previous post. also Look at the evidence you even provided.

" I can see why people don't like this, it can be fun (yea pick up 52 can be fun too)" 

Its always about perspective right? Like this player "clusterfuck" "what the hell". To me he did not come off as a guys who learned some thing rather. I see someone who is just appalled by the complete randomness of this game. Also look at who he is playing with, not offense to those players. But the way they play and the way the avids play is Exponentially different. If he were in a lobby with not even avids but frequent players he would have gotten decimated and would have never played again.

 

But you know what, lets continue this mindset. Let's praise that the skeleton of PvP is just fine and people will come eventually. At the end of the day if the player count stagnates or increases extremely slowly. its just going to get canned, which we can divert resources into missions that more people actually play like raids.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[(PSN)Double991]

I don't think that video was a good example of the general PvP experience. That guy seemed like he wanted the game to be like every other generic shooter where you are glued to the ground. Then he started criticizing the abilities because he didn't even understand them with the biggest example being where he didn't know what Radial Blind was while playing as Excalibur. Put one good player in that lobby and they would have been crushed.

I feel like people get too used to fighting the easy AI in this game that they expect people to play the same way. If a player cannot utilize all of the tools given to them, then they don't deserve to complain when other people are using the very same tools that are available to everyone.

Learning to move around effectively may be important to doing well however that alone will not make a good player. Without proper aim, mobility is wasted. I've seen players spend the entire game dodging around to survive the best they can but by the time the game is over they have way less kills compared to everyone else.

The key issue with the skill gap really seems to be the matchmaking  but you can only apply so many filters before people either can't find a game at all or are forced to play the high skilled players anyway. I like how they did the tutorial with Lunaro and I believe they could do the same with conclave where you are taught lessons on mobility and aiming that you might not have learned in PvE.

[bernad2218]

muh old cunclev

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

23 hours ago, bernad2218 said:

muh old cunclev

muh new conclave

Just now: No Limit - North America East - On (Canada) Thanksgiving. Almost no one works this day. I waited in each session in CTC and TDM until moments after this clip I find a game in DM.

 

But we made it guys! 2/3 playlists are completely barren in a game with around 16k players online as of this video. And I found one maybe two matches. I even did this on canada day, mind you it was even worse I had to look a bit more in DM. 

 

Lets keep in mind that "muh old cunclev" had

-No advertising

-minimal attention from the devs
- was just a node/nodes, not a giant terminal in the front of your liset.

 

And I was able to find a game, either as equally or more consistently to this. Don't pull my leg dude. This is not a hill that you want to die on. Because when 2/3 playlists don't even have games occurring, there is a problem, if you need to switch to ANOTHER server just so you can be able to play at that country's peak time, then there is a problem. And if you do not have the tenacity to admit it, then I will :)

Edited October 10, 2016 by Eureka.seveN
wrong stats soz :(

[rockscl]

boi, this is surreal, i didnt intend to answer anymore because you were already validating my point right here

On 9/10/2016 at 4:36 PM, Eureka.seveN said:

But the way they play and the way the avids play is Exponentially different. If he were in a lobby with not even avids but frequent players he would have gotten decimated and would have never played again.

 

On 9/10/2016 at 4:16 PM, rockscl said:

in an environment were the skill gap is too high we will always experience the things you usually complain about (people escaping too easy, ttk being too long), but what i see in this video i could traduce it to my own experience against players around my same skill level and theres no difference, they cant escape from me if i get advantage, and i cant escape from them if they got advantage in the fight.

So while you call this system broken because its not fun, i call it broken because its based on ping affinity

but im going to leave it here, just as a reminder, this sad population we have right now is what was left after the Devs decided to listen to you: u18.2, with so much options for a FPS PVP player these days, you lose your players in a single mistep, thats is what we have today, and p2p

Edited October 11, 2016 by rockscl

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

3 hours ago, rockscl said:

boi, you are surreal, i didnt intend to answer anymore to your dystopian posts because you were already validating my point right here

 

but im going to leave it here, just as a reminder, this sad population we have right now is what was left after the Devs decided to listen to you: u18.2

Oh so its not the fundamentally broken game play

its not the minimal appeal to the audience

its not the fact that they shoehorned in every frame and a large chunk in the weapon roster without proper testing

it's not the fact that some good weapons are locked behind an event or an atrocious grind wall.

its not the fact that there are dozens of factors, that must be considered and where are players forced to consider for no good reason other than for the sake of convolution

it's not because there are over 20+ characters which each react differently to three different damage types

Its not because there are hundreds of powers that need to be considered for the sake of balance

its because of the lack of a dedicated servers after over a year of its release.

its not the facts that when we asked for the karak to NOT get nerfed almost a year ago but they did it anyways

its not because that players have to juggle load outs with three damage types, with different heroes with different casts and varying mobility ratings and in addition see if those load outs are compatible with certain frames.

its not because of the potential of the mobility that players have to devote loads of energy to a single kill.

its not because in some matches, half of the time would elapse and only 9 people died.

its not because any of the game modes are not that compatiable core of the game.

And let me add to your conjecture, 18.2 failure was not because of my suggestion. It's what other people wanted as well and in addition (if I may add) the reason why  this game mode is in a steep decline is because of how it was brought up and made and tweaked drastically constantly. When I ask for lower TTKs there is more to it than that, I have made a list, multiple times on the things that needed to be done in order to foster a competitive, but fun and fair PvP experience. You cant just do one of those things and call it a day, why don't we look deeper into what made 18.2 so "bad"

First of all (if my memory is correct) there was a standardization of mobility but not in EHPs and Sprint speeds. The weapons were mot balanced at all, and i think anyone can attest to that and especially were not balanced for this drastic change. And how can they? You fundamentally change the entire nature of the game and don't fix everything else, what the hell did anyone expect? If you fix one thing EVERYTHING else needs to be tweaked. 

But of course its everyone else's fault for not liking/ playing conclave right? Because they are too used to PvE and always winning completely negating the fact that warframe is no the only multiplayer shooter and not the only 3rd person multiplay shooter in existence? 

You think im talking dystopia, no i'm in the reality here, I show the graphs that we were provided, I show footage examples from in game. To say im distopian? Please I talk to hundreds of people on a daily basis who play this game, whom i deeply respect. People from all walks of life, from veterans to new players to even some old pvp players and some new, and my opinion is based on that. I know what I am talking about.

Look at this sub forum, this is from the first page.

"How to make pvp more appealing"

"Conclave needs and overhaul"

"Can conclave get some more balancing ASAP please?"

"PvP and unfair mechanics"

 

If a game is fun, people will play it. Halo 3 was probably one of the hardest games in the franchise, it had some of the most refined pro players in the franchises history with a huge competitive backdrop and the skill gap was immense. People were getting their 50s in just a few days. And yet, millions upon millions of new players flooded in, why? Because the game was fun. The skill gap does matter, but if people like playing the game they will want to get better at it. but like is said before, this id also for your sake. The influx of new players? Extremely low, disastrously low. While raids that have the larger chunk of the player participation get nothing? Conclave will be scrapped or not invested in if not many players play it, like raids. I do my part, I try to help new players learn raids, and more people enjoy them. But conclave is different you cant teach people how to play something that is broken and not fun at it's core. Raids are fun if you learn how to do them. Conclave is not.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[rockscl]

i could go and argue each one of your points from my point of view but i think that what is fundamentally important is that conclave´s degree of fun factor gameplay-wise is currently very enslaved by the skillgap, or its by itself secondary for its player retention, just like lunaro was praised day and night for being extremely fun, today i cant find a single lobby for it, actually, i find less players in lunaro than in FFA, i think your point of view is wrong, lol, like i needed to say it literally?, just consider the lunaro example, thats all i can say so far as i know you wont ever agree with me at any thing

Edited October 11, 2016 by rockscl