body diversity in lady frames

[morningstar999]

A bulky/buff looking female frame would be fine, like a female rhino or something. but even a bulky female frame would probably be less bulky than rhino/hydroid etc, simply due to the nature of female bodies in general. 

 but a FAT frame would not be good, simply because they are designed for war not doughnut eating, and it doesn't fit in with anything else warframe. 

Warframe is amazing as it doesn't sexualise its female or male frames/characters unlike a lot of games, it gives it more realism (and makes more sense) 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by morningstar999

[SamareRein]

11 minutes ago, senatorspade said:

I'm sorry your family has treated you that way. But you are listening to people who don't accept body diversity, and you're letting that impact your vision of an ideal body type. Maybe the idea doesn't appeal to you, I'm not saying you have to like it- I'm just saying that a lot of people are looking to find acceptance and comfort in characters they can relate to. 

I never said it was my family. They're fine. It's others though they're easy to shrug off as Idc about others beyond my group in general. And no, I don't have an 'ideal body type' actually. I just don't think larger female frames are practical for this game. The male ones are like they are for reason. I fail to see any good idea for a female frame that would require larger frames.

[tnccs215]

48 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

I could make the same argument about the lack of Left-handed Frames. Or the lack of ability to give my Operator Vitiligo (_{improve the Hair Texture DE, white don't look white}). Or the lack of...you get the picture.

Honestly my issue with Tokenism is that it's functionally shallow. It's no more than pandering to a group to give the impression you care whilst you take their money. It's not a result of having something being 'yeah, they just happen to be x' or such. Kanji of Persona 4 is a compelling character in his own right, not because he's Homosexual for example. I like Hiccup of How To Train Your Dragon due to the subtle way they actually played with his left-handedness, making his character more relate-able for me as I'd been there before personally.

So my argument is more that, if we're going to have a bulkier female frame, she needs to exist for more than to appeal to those of that aesthetic interest/preference/whatever. Characters, even if they are no more than Morphs, to borrow Eclipse Phase parlance, should be treated with more care than a thin veiled attempt to look like you 'care' about a group of people. Tokenism is unappealing due to the lack of depth it carries with it.

If you're going to represent anyone, anything...do it with respect and fairness. Short-changing something then acting like you did it justice is an insult, especially if it's then used as a shield against criticism. Tokenism is the opposite of what people should want, as it just...reduces it to a caricature.

Granted, this is all how I view Tokenism so I apologise for the bias contained above.

Mh... I do understand your reasoning, and I agree with it up to a point.

In the end, your question ends up being: "Is a poorly made representation better than none at all?", to which you answer "No, it isn't".

I do agree that a character analogous to a minority must not be just the thing that defines that minority. A fundamental part in humanizing people is to make them multi-sided, etc.

I too would be dissapointed if a big female frame was just a big female frame, little more than a "there, you have it, now give us money". Hell, if poorly made enough, it could even be downright insulting. Yet, I really don't think poorly made, pure-pandering characthers are necessary consequences of tokenism (i.e.: of making something with the main reason to appease a certain group).

Yes, they are logical and common, but I don't think that they are mandatory. Truth is, it depends a lot on the developer, and their ethical tendencies. There are some truly well made characters that, when seen in the big picture, are pure tokenism.

One already mentioned before is Zarya, from Overwatch; which was announced shortly after criticism against the lack of female body diversity started to surface. Hell, I've heard the exact same argument you used coming from the mouth of feminists to whom Zarya was nothing but tokenism.

In my opinion... I agree that she is a token character, but not a bad character. Her design is cool, her abilities are so too, and her back story and personality are as much developed as any Overwatch's character (that is, not very much;  but good enough).  So she is perfectly fine and even beneficial in my eyes.

Another good example is Evie, from Assassin's Creed Syndicate. Ubisoft's cinicism is well known, and I'm not amazed a female character was announced for the game succeeding Unity (an optional character, of course, cause it's ubisoft). She is pure tokenism, purely made to shut up the ones who accused them of misogyny. 

And you know what? She is a perfectly made character. Hell, I like her more than the a$$hole that her brother is; to the point of being genuinely upset when the game forces me to play his arrogant face.

[EDIT]: yeah, Evie is a trully, really cool "token" character. her garments aren't made solely to appease the male gaze (making her a more independent, non-pandering character on her own), she possesses an actual personality, and she doesn't fall into "feminine" stereotypes without being just a Strong Independent Woman #1453. 

 

What I'm saying is that, while I understand your fears, I don't think that are that very well founded. It really depends on each case, whether the cynicism behind the character is excusable or not due to its quality. Call me nihilistic, but, with the way industry works; even though I'm enamored when good things come with a genuinely good intent behind, I've also resigned myself to enjoy good things even if what's behind them is pure cynicism. Well, up to a limit, of course. 

Whether this implied definition of tokenism is tokenism or not will just be arguing semantics... which, while important, are passable if everyone understands eachother. So I think that let's leave it at that? 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by tnccs215

[Wolfdoggie]

24 minutes ago, Ahcruna said:

Hydroid body isn't a bulky or fat though, it's mostly all the accessories on him
he is supposed to have that baggy buccaneer look.

On a side note, I hate all his gear! it clips with almost every Syandana in the game :(



___________________________________________________
There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°）╯︵ ┻━┻

No excuses. 

[Slaviar]

The issue is all female frames are more or less muscular. From my perspective it looks like you guys want steroid packed gym mutant, not healthy looking woman

[SamareRein]

1 minute ago, Slaviar said:

The issue is all female frames are more or less muscular. From my perspective it looks like you guys want steroid packed gym mutant, not healthy looking woman

Seems that's what they want indeed, Sad, isn't it? We don't need a sterioded out girl frame for the sake of forced 'diversity'.

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

The issue is all female frames are more or less muscular. From my perspective it looks like you guys want steroid packed gym mutant, not healthy looking woman

ehrm... actually all female frames seem to obey to a very specific build: "muscular slim".

Female bodies are waaaaaay more diverse than that. be them muscular or not.

Additionally, these aren't humans, so no reason for them to have strictly human proportions.

that said, I don't see the issue with having one "steroid packed gym mutants" or another. Since the males obviously can be so, why not have some females too?

 

[Blakrana]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

In the end, your question ends up being: "Is a poorly made representation better than none at all?", to which you answer "No, it isn't".

I do agree that a character analogous to a minority must not be just the thing that defines that minority. A fundamental part in humanizing people is to make them multi-sided, etc.

I too would be dissapointed if a big female frame was just a big female frame, little more than a "there, you have it, now give us money". Hell, if poorly made enough, it could even be downright insulting. Yet, I really don't think poorly made, pure-pandering characthers are necessary consequences of tokenism (i.e.: of making something with the main reason to appease a certain group).

Yes, they are logical and common, but I don't think that they are mandatory. Truth is, it depends a lot on the developer, and their ethical tendencies. There are some truly well made characters that, when seen in the big picture, are pure tokenism.

To quote TV Tropes: "Tropes are not bad".

It's all in the execution of said Tropes.

There's no 'one right way' to do it, and it does depend on how respectful the person is. Much of the argument does just boil down to 'do it well' really. It's much like the Mary Sue argument: A character can tick the Mary Sue boxes, but still be a good and interesting character in their own right. Whether or not one does though I suppose comes down to personal interpretation.

I'm not denying a Token character can be done well...It's just, if you can't do it well, then I'd prefer that there to be no attempt until one can, if that makes sense?

If you're going to do something, do it to your best ability, not what's cheap and cheerful.

Really, it's the execution that we're querying and that's ultimately out of our hands in all honesty.

11 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Call me nihilistic, but, with the way industry works; even though I'm enamored when good things come with a genuinely good intent behind, I've also resigned myself to enjoy good things even if what's behind them is pure cynicism

Eh...I quibble a little on whether that's less Nihilism and more apathy/maturity but that's admittedly the Philosophy graduate being pedantic.

[achromos]

3 hours ago, senatorspade said:

Warframes aren't even human though, so why would that matter? also, fit doesn't always mean thin. there are plenty of fit big women in this world.

not trying to be insensitive, but (which usually comes before a insensitive comment... I know)

 

when I look at her...  I feel like someone added a bit of a crease to make those almost invisible breasts and put a female head on a male body.

But hey, she's got a better body then me so Kudos to her.

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, Blakrana said:

Really, it's the execution that we're querying and that's ultimately out of our hands in all honesty.

Agreed. With that in mind, and taking DE's character design skills, I don't see the issue in asking for some.

Though, I'm just repeating myself at this point.

[Azrael]

10 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

The issue is all female frames are more or less muscular. From my perspective it looks like you guys want steroid packed gym mutant, not healthy looking woman

I certainly never said that. There's no denying that the female frames are quite slim/small, we can easily get a bulkier one without resorting to hyperbole and getting a "steroid-packed mutant."

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, achromos said:

not trying to be insensitive, but (which usually comes before a insensitive comment... I know)

 

when I look at her...  I feel like someone added a bit of a crease to make those almost invisible breasts and put a female head on a male body.

But hey, she's got a better body then me so Kudos to her.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. What, uh... what's your point?

[tnccs215]

Just now, achromos said:

not trying to be insensitive, but (which usually comes before a insensitive comment... I know)

 

when I look at her...  I feel like someone added a bit of a crease to make those almost invisible breasts and put a female head on a male body.

But hey, she's got a better body then me so Kudos to her.

eh, that ends up being the issue of this society, doesn't it?

So focused on the differences that we forget male and female body types can actually overlap quite a bit. Instead of that, we say that women with muscular bodies have "a men body" and men with skinny, large hipped bodies have "a feminine body".... even though one is obviously a woman and the other obviously a man.

So yeah, maybe we should stop ensuring we can differentiate men from women and start ensuring good diversity in characters. After all, I think making people happy is more important then differentiating them.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, senatorspade said:

but characters like nezha and oberon's feyarch skin have feminine features too.

Feminine how? Both frames have narrow shoulders but that's not a distinctly feminine feature either.

As to diversity: Differing opinions will vary... Having a blocky figured female frame sounds more like fan-service than it does diversity to me. 

[morningstar999]

50 minutes ago, achromos said:

I feel like someone added a bit of a crease to make those almost invisible breasts and put a female head on a male body.

but small boobs can be good boobs. 

also there's nothing wrong with a female looking a bit more 'manish' and not a delicate flower! 

love from a bisexual woman x 

17 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Feminine how? Both frames have narrow shoulders but that's not a distinctly feminine feature either.

I mistook Nezha as a young girl at first, its the slender/smaller build/ pigtail extras and more delicate movements he has. But thats mostly down to it being a more 'young boyish frame' 

-I dunno the idea a school girl like frame killing tonnes of big buff Grineer amused me more. 

at the end of the day how a frame looks doesn't stop me from enjoying/using it. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by morningstar999

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

*facepalms* let's leave our "equal treatment/ rights/ political correctness of 2016 out of warframe please lol. It is mostly due to the fact that these warframes were created, hence they were designed to look that way by the race that created them, perhaps that is what they saw as combat efficient. Sure rhinos big, but he's a tank, sure chroma a big, his got a whole armor that he sheds. Don't really see how we need big females? Unless it some how has a reason for it.

[aligatorno]

4 hours ago, Varacal said:

considering the other body type is like a wrestler or a body builder or a weight lifter, what theme would that fit in other than a brawler, which is kinda what atlas is, and besides, not like the male frames have diversity either, only bulky one is rhino, the other ones are slim, chroma is slim, only thing that made him bulky is his pelt

Vauban is quite buff as well. 

[Slaviar]

39 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

ehrm... actually all female frames seem to obey to a very specific build: "muscular slim".

Female bodies are waaaaaay more diverse than that. be them muscular or not.

Obviously, there are women with "broader" and "slimmer" bodies (English is not my native language, I'm not sure if these terms are right) but unless they do steroids they don't look like strongmen. Just like men. All these monsters are not how healthy human in good shape looks like.

57 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Additionally, these aren't humans, so no reason for them to have strictly human proportions.

Hardly an argument.

57 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

that said, I don't see the issue with having one "steroid packed gym mutants" or another. Since the males obviously can be so, why not have some females too?

Honestly, even Rhino and Atlas don't look like that. They are muscular but not that muscular.

46 minutes ago, Azrael said:

I certainly never said that. There's no denying that the female frames are quite slim/small, we can easily get a bulkier one without resorting to hyperbole and getting a "steroid-packed mutant."

I've never said you did

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, Slaviar said:

Obviously, there are women with "broader" and "slimmer" bodies (English is not my native language, I'm not sure if these terms are right) but unless they do steroids they don't look like strongmen. Just like men. All these monsters are not how healthy human in good shape looks like.

Go check the several pictures of beefed women in here. There isn't one like those in Warframe, trully.

1 minute ago, Slaviar said:

Hardly an argument.

Quite the contrary. it means there is no reason not to make a beefy female character, because human physique laws don't apply.

 

2 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Honestly, even Rhino and Atlas don't look like that. They are muscular but not that muscular.

I think you don't know what "muscular" means. And it goes beyond muscle. simple shape. Atlas is distinctively inhuman, and Rhino is so too. wether is muscle, bone or fat is irrelevant.

[Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

I've never said you did

I never said you said I said that. If I had said you said I said that then I would have said that.  :)

 

18 minutes ago, (XB1)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

let's leave our "equal treatment/ rights/ political correctness of 2016 out of warframe please lol.

Ow. I think I over-cringed.

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Obviously, there are women with "broader" and "slimmer" bodies (English is not my native language, I'm not sure if these terms are right) but unless they do steroids they don't look like strongmen. Just like men. All these monsters are not how healthy human in good shape looks like.

I'm not sure I understand you. What "monsters" are you talking about? And did you really mean to say that women with broader or slimmer bodies look like men? Or did you mean that *neither* men nor women look like strongmen without steroids?

[ClinkzEastwood]

Idk if a bulky female frame would work considering they don't really look like human.

I mean you need to actually read the lore to know that Equinox is a female frame.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

I mean you need to actually read the lore to know that Equinox is a female frame.

Are you sure that's even true?

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Idk if a bulky female frame would work considering they don't really look like human.

This might not be common knowledge, but bulky women do exist irl.

Also, neither does Atlas or Inaros look human

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

I mean I would like a strong female frame, if there can be a rhino there can be rhino's sister 

I mean saryn and nova aren't the slimmest of the bunch either