Equinox, Ying and Yang needs a few tweaks

[ShadeC]

So as of late I've picked up on playing Equinox, put a few forma into her, looked up a few builds, tested my own,and I gotta say.

 

She is far better than most people give her credit for.

Of course, she can't compete with the big boys, Loki, Trinity, Nova, Rhino, Excalibur, she's not there.

But she is SO damned close.

I am by no means a balancing expert or even good at coming up with ideas, but these are just a few thoughts I had which I thought would bring Equinox into the big boy leagues.

Gonna go over each and every one of her abilities with my comments. Mostly.

Metamorphosis -

Really...I got nothing. Honestly the way I see it there's really no point in it being anything other than a 'switch' button, first abilities tend to be lackluster 99.99% of the time anyway, so I say there's nothing that needs to be done with it.

Rest and Rage - Night

While many criticize this ability for having pitiful range, honestly I think its fine, slap on the augment and you got an ability that can put to sleep an entire sorties worth of level 100 bombard eximi...eximus's?

Its got real short range, but it does it job and it has a much longer default duration than the other sleep power using Warframe (22 seconds VS Ivara's 10 second sleep) so its a trade off.

Rest and Rage - Day

 Oh boi, here we go.

Rage is a good ability thematically, it makes sense, enemies become enraged and drop their defenses, and there for take more damage. It makes sense, and you dealing more damage can never be a bad thing.

Unless it massively buffs the enemy.

Now, I may be exaggerating just a slight bit, as 20% Speed increase doesn't sound all too bad for dealing 50% more damage to the enemy...but it is massive.

Really, in this game, the only time you'll really wanna buff your damage is when facing an enemy that can slaughter you right quick, while being basically tanks themselves, these lovely creatures are known as bombards, and heavy gunners.

By the time your weapons can no longer one-shot these creatures, you're at the point where a speed increase for them in exchange for damage is...not worth it. Bombards maybe, because you can start acting like ya took some real good meth and jump around the place and hope to whatever god you believe in you can avoid the rockets. However, on a heavy gunner...yeah you're just helping him kill you faster.

This ability needs to do something else, maybe provide a short Banshee silence like stun (animation not affected by the speed increase) on the enemies it hits before they start their speedy kill kill act, or, give it a radiation like effect so they might turn and speed kill their friends instead of you.

Thematically it makes sense, but gameplay wise its just not a good idea.

You do not speed up a level 100 Heavy gunner.

You're gonna die if you do.

TL;DR

Add either a small 1-2 second stun before the speed effects kick in, or add a radiation proc so they can maybe kill something other than you.

Pacify & Provoke - Day and Night

I got nothing I want to change on this ability, well, aside from rolling its augment into it because vanilla, this ability is just...underwhelming and a bit S#&$ honestly. But with the augment it becomes really, really good. At 200% Power Strength you slow harder than Nova and a 80% Power Strength increase for you and your buddies is quite tasty. Basically a "free" Blind Rage without the efficiency tank.

Range is a bit lacking considering some of the larger rooms in the game, but its workable, for both forms.

Power Drain is basically nothing, thanks to it not being a 'true' toggle and allowing you to regen/get Trinity'd.

All in all, a mediocre ability that gets made real nice with its augment (Though honestly it should be rolled into it but DE has a thing with Bandage mods so eh)

Mend & Maim - Day

All good as far as I'm concerned, slash procs are the best procs in the game and the damage builds up pretty fast so you can pop a room full of enemies, maybe the energy drain could be reduced just a little bit from 3.5 to 3, but its not really needed, its good.

 

Mend & Maim - Night

Here we go, pretty much the entire reason I decided to write this up in the first place.

This ability is...massively lacking. Compared to its Day form its hot garbage.

The ability description outright lies to you, it says "In night form, allies are healed with each nearby enemy killed" which is a big fat double XL supersized and a diet coke lie.

You activate it, kill enemies it stores their shield and health as a charge, and then you deactivate the ability to restore allies health and shields to full if they are in your range and if you've got enough points accumulated.

This is all well and good...but compared to the Day ability, which can wipe out entire rooms of level 100-infinity aslong as you've stacked enough damage, Night forms Mend just heals you to full, and any excess points you've saved up are just thrown away to the wind.

Even if you put on all the health and shield increasing mods and had an entire raid full of nothing but an Equinox and 7 Inaros's...Inari?

You'd still only need about 60k points to heal everyone to full, and in the raid of all things, you'd accumulate those points in seconds. Plus the ability is too slow and the drain is too harsh to keep it as a heal exclusively. Especially with alternatives such as Trinity, and even Oberon.

We need to be able to use that excess. My suggestion? with 5% of the excess points once everyone is healed to full, give em an iron skin

I did a quick run in the sim room, did a little murder spree against 2 Corrupted Bombards, 4 Corrupt Crewmen, 4 Corrupt Butchers, 2 Corrupt Ancients, 2 Corrupt Heavy gunners, 2 Corrupt Anti-Moa's and 4 Corrupted Lancer eximus units. All level 50.

This gave me a total of 120k Mend points. So if me and my entire team were healthy, out of those points when popped, for 5%, we'd each get around 1500 points of Iron skin.

Now that doesn't seem unreasonable or overpowered does it? In lower levels you'd get even less, but its still nice to have at least the points going SOMEWHERE other than oblivion. And in higher levels, you'd get higher amounts of points and you'd actually have an incentive to A- Murder with your friendly Equinox and B- Stay close to your friendly equinox, cuz you never know when she's gonna pop that mend she's been building up for a while and give you a lovely little 12500 Iron skin (If she saved up 1million points of Mend and everyones full health and shields already)

And of course popping another Mend would replace any remaining iron skin, it wouldn't stack.

 

End Thoughts

In my personal opinion, these changes would make Equinox significantly better, Day Form would be the damage form still, making enemies more vulnerable with Rage WITHOUT possibly sabotaging her own team, buffing ally powers with Augmented Provoke, and clearing entire rooms with Maim

Night form would also become much more powerful, being able to put key target to sleep with Rest as she can already, Providing a strong mobile slow area with Augmented Pacify, and providing a heal and small iron skin with Mend.

 

I dunno, I think its a good idea, the biggest issue on my mind is Mend, as it is extremely lackluster for a fourth ability, even if it is the second fourth ability on a frame...With these changes it provides a different sort of safety, instead of the instant wide range covering heal and damage resist that Trinity offers, you get a shorter ranged, not time limited health buff.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms? Death Threats or name callings?

I welcome all.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ShadeC

[Jakorak]

huh I like it. i'm curious to see what people have to say

[TheScytale]

I think Iron Skins are a bit too powerful. Maybe divide the excess points between the players in range, and make those points grant a 10 health/s regen. That health regen will consume X points per second (can't think of a reasonable amount), and twice as much if they're not being used (i.e full health).

Another addition I would like to see is Mend & Maim numbers being stored while changing forms. Even if 100 points are consumed per second, that's still better than what we have now. Mend & Maim was supposed to make you play tactically, but the problem is that in most scenarios you can't switch forms and accumulate damage fast enough before your teammate dies.

[ShadeC]

4 minutes ago, TheScytale said:

I think Iron Skins are a bit too powerful. Maybe divide the excess points between the players in range, and make those points grant a 10 health/s regen. That health regen will consume X points per second (can't think of a reasonable amount), and twice as much if they're not being used (i.e full health).

Another addition I would like to see is Mend & Maim numbers being stored while changing forms. Even if 100 points are consumed per second, that's still better than what we have now. Mend & Maim was supposed to make you play tactically, but the problem is that in most scenarios you can't switch forms and accumulate damage fast enough before your teammate dies.

Kinda had a somewhat similar incase people thought iron skin was just too Op op, though instead of health regen, my other idea was to give you like 20% of the excess points as Iron skin, but have it rapidly decay, say 300points a second.

And yeah that would be nice, being able to switch between Mend and Maim and retain the points you've collected...dunno why you can't do that honestly, you do gain the points the exact same way, and its not like the range shrinks or you get more points faster in one form than the other.

[KirukaChan]

Metamorphosis decay on the buffs needs to go. For a first power, it's extremely weak, particularly with Night form as it doesn't scale at all. I'd even be up for switching the bonus shields/armor to something closer to Mirage's Eclipse while in the shadows (albeit a weaker version of it).

I like your thoughts on Rest & Rage and Pacify & Provoke. Building up Pacify's bonus with the Augment is a bloody pain, though, and I don't even bother bringing Equinox to Corpus missions since all it takes is one Nully bubble or Comba aura to piss all over Equinox's bonus. It's not as bad for Day form to have to build it back up (since all you have to do is shoot things), but Night form having to take damage (which is either suicidal or a tedious chore depending on enemy levels) is just aggravating. I'm not really sure if I can offer a viable solution to that, though. The closest thing I can think of to being balanced is to let Equinox switch between forms without losing built up bonus on Peaceful Provocation; i.e., you can build up your bonus in Day form, then switch to Night form and have your slow ready to go at max.

My big problem with Mend is that it's literally worse than Trin's Blessing in every way. Inferior range, inferior healing, no damage reduction, kills having to be made, and energy drain (why does this even need to drain energy at a constant rate?). So, first and foremost, let's make the energy drain have a purpose: when Mend is on, Equinox and all allies in range of the aura cannot be affected by status procs (basic staggers/knockdowns can still happen, though). This includes Grineer magnetic doors and Radiation Hazards as well. Second, any excess healing when Equinox releases the built-up power becomes overshields and is split up evenly between those in range.

[PsiWarp]

For Mend's aura active, maybe have it draw hitpoints from the pool and continuously heal up to 75% of max shields and health (like for enemies) for Equinox and her allies in range, starting with 150 points (like Maim) per second that scales with Power Strength. If you want everyone topped up, just deactivate Mend to spend all the hitpoints.

A stagger or agonizing stun (Chaos) for Rage could work too. If anything either reduce the move speed or make it decay over time as enemies get less angry.

Pacify... why does it even need to reduce damage less with range? I get Night Equinox being ideal for melee combat with Rest and her however short-lasting defensive buffs from Metamorphosis, but this thing costs energy per second per enemy for what inconsistent benefit it gives. It wouldn't hurt for it to reduce enemy's attack speed with their ranged weapons too.

Metamorphosis buffs shouldn't decay, but still have a duration limit so we switch forms when we need them.

I have a feeling that making Pacify & Provoke and Mend & Maim remain active but switch to their respective version when we use Metamorphosis is too much to ask, but hey, doesn't hurt to try.

[ShadeC]

3 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Metamorphosis decay on the buffs needs to go. For a first power, it's extremely weak, particularly with Night form as it doesn't scale at all. I'd even be up for switching the bonus shields/armor to something closer to Mirage's Eclipse while in the shadows (albeit a weaker version of it).

I like your thoughts on Rest & Rage and Pacify & Provoke. Building up Pacify's bonus with the Augment is a bloody pain, though, and I don't even bother bringing Equinox to Corpus missions since all it takes is one Nully bubble or Comba aura to piss all over Equinox's bonus. It's not as bad for Day form to have to build it back up (since all you have to do is shoot things), but Night form having to take damage (which is either suicidal or a tedious chore depending on enemy levels) is just aggravating. I'm not really sure if I can offer a viable solution to that, though. The closest thing I can think of to being balanced is to let Equinox switch between forms without losing built up bonus on Peaceful Provocation; i.e., you can build up your bonus in Day form, then switch to Night form and have your slow ready to go at max.

My big problem with Mend is that it's literally worse than Trin's Blessing in every way. Inferior range, inferior healing, no damage reduction, kills having to be made, and energy drain (why does this even need to drain energy at a constant rate?). So, first and foremost, let's make the energy drain have a purpose: when Mend is on, Equinox and all allies in range of the aura cannot be affected by status procs (basic staggers/knockdowns can still happen, though). This includes Grineer magnetic doors and Radiation Hazards as well. Second, any excess healing when Equinox releases the built-up power becomes overshields and is split up evenly between those in range.

I'm not too bothered about the build up of Pacify with the augment, yes it can take a while, but if its not building then you don't really need it. The ability encourages you to stick to your team mates as the damage they take also adds to it. As for the ease at which all you worked for can be pissed away...well, thats the corpus for ya, Nuli's are a hot topic in terms of how massively anti-fun they are, to some frames more so than others, and Comba is just a sneaky version of the Nuli, even more anti-fun as it can just sneak up on ya and you have no say in the matter.

Those are however obstacles that we need to overcome, and can overcome. We however cannot overcome a Warframe who's abilities are massively lacking, so i'd rather focus on that than the games fetish for shutting you down and telling you its your fault.

We need to stop thinking every heal needs to be a Trinity Heal. Trinity is Trinity, she is the quintessential support frame, dealing heals and energy and saving your noob &#!. Equinox is supposed to be a midway point between big damages and big buffs and CC. So comparing it to Trinity, you (We) are already doing it wrong. I think the energy drain would be fine on Mend if my idea were to be realized, as while immunity to status sounds nice at that point the ability would be a bit too bloated, and magnetic doors...dude.

You run into that S#&$ its your own damned fault. If you need a frame to babysit you on that you've got bigger problems. Not trying to be mean, just saying.

And having the built up energy be put into overshields is a terrible, horrible, god awful idea. If overshields could go past 1500 then yeah sure I guess, but you can literally farm up one million or more Mend points in just minutes in high levels, that 1500 is complete and utter garbage. Shields have 0 Armor, they will be gone when a level 80 butcher looks at you funny. Your effort to get big numbers needs to be rewarded, having that reward be capped at 1500 overshields is just...neither good nor fun.

Maim, you build up 1mill points, you deal 1mill damage to every idiot in the room.

Mend, you build up 1mill points, you get full health and 1500 overshields...yay.

If they make it so overshields can go to infinity and beyond? Sure, but as it is now? No, no way in hek.

[ShadeC]

7 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

For Mend's aura active, maybe have it draw hitpoints from the pool and continuously heal up to 75% of max shields and health (like for enemies) for Equinox and her allies in range, starting with 150 points (like Maim) per second that scales with Power Strength. If you want everyone topped up, just deactivate Mend to spend all the hitpoints.

A stagger or agonizing stun (Chaos) for Rage could work too. If anything either reduce the move speed or make it decay over time as enemies get less angry.

Pacify... why does it even need to reduce damage less with range? I get Night Equinox being ideal for melee combat with Rest and her however short-lasting defensive buffs from Metamorphosis, but this thing costs energy per second per enemy for what inconsistent benefit it gives. It wouldn't hurt for it to reduce enemy's attack speed with their ranged weapons too.

Metamorphosis buffs shouldn't decay, but still have a duration limit so we switch forms when we need them.

I have a feeling that making Pacify & Provoke and Mend & Maim remain active but switch to their respective version when we use Metamorphosis is too much to ask, but hey, doesn't hurt to try.

That sounds like its a bit...silly. Why cap it at 75%? And at what rate does the heal go out? is it like 10 a second or 1000 a second? See in higher levels you need a bit more safety than a constant regen can offer you. My idea gives you a sort of potential safetynet, if equinox tries hard enough, you can potentially get an extra 10k health, which will save you from those two bombard rockets hitting you at once, while a constant health regen wont. They let Nezha give people Iron skin with an augment, why can't that be Equinox's built in thing, but with scaling.

I think with the 75% damage resistance you get, having it be at the entire range would be a bit too powerful, considering the abilities very meager energy cost. I mean, you need to be in range of 12 enemies for it to drain enough to make it so Zenurik can't regen for ya. And any time you're not within range of 12 enemies or more, you're gaining energy back via Zenurik. It also DOES reduce enemy attack speed with ranged weapons when they enter the slowing range...dunno what you've been seeing, but for me if a heavy gunner enters the zone he starts shooting significantly slower.

I agree on metamorphosis, it'd be nice...but I'd pretty much given up on the ability as anything more than a switch, thanks to the running theme of first abilities being just...trash or "meh" at best. So I didn't even ask.

And yes, that is indeed too much to ask for...for Pacify & Provoke at least, as Provoke is much easier to build than Pacify... Mend and Maim not so much, as you build it the exact same way...but eh. Lets take care of the most important thing with making abilities actually truly useful and strong first, then we can plead for QoL changes eh?

 

[--Q--uaint]

I don't feel like writing out everything all over again, but you could totally check out the Equinox rework in Retune *all* The Frames! (8/19: Nightfall and Daybreak) - Warframes & Abilities - Warframe Forums

Of particular note is the Rage fix posited there: to mirror Rest's melee focus with melee finishers, Rage forces enemies into melee for the duration.

[tnccs215]

Peaceful Provocation is a awfully designed bandaid mod that goes against everything Equinox is meant to stand for.

You either choose to have a useful 3, or to actually be able to change form.

Honestly, Equinox is the proof Efficiency and Good Design do not go obligatorily hand in hand.

She's a great failure of execution: Good at killing and (provided you dont die due to Nullifiers) CC, but she is not the dynamic, fluid frame that rewards adapting-- indeed, looking at how more than half her kit demands build ups, she actively punishes adaptation.

Closest thing you can get is to altern between spamming rest and spamming maim-- and since Maim has a stunn, Rest tends to be redundant for the most part of the star chart.

Also, Mend. Screw Mend.

You know, I used to give really, really long texts on Equinox, and how she is in dire need of a rework and she's a failure of design, but ever since Rebecca said she thought she was "in a good position right now"-- even though Peaceful Provocation is what it is-- I simply don't bother anymore.

And I have 400 hours on her.

[tnccs215]

Also, that "Let's ensure that Maim has the icon right at the start so that the player can be really really sure that Maim's active, but god forbid us giving Mend icons showing which allies are and aren't in range. No, that would be overpowered.

That and having this frame having the powers transform with metamorphosis instead of deactivating. Noooo, it's not like she was made to be, like, fluid and rewarding adaptation right?!

[ShadeC]

8 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Peaceful Provocation is a awfully designed bandaid mod that goes against everything Equinox is meant to stand for.

You either choose to have a useful 3, or to actually be able to change form.

Honestly, Equinox is the proof Efficiency and Good Design do not go obligatorily hand in hand.

She's a great failure of execution: Good at killing and (provided you dont die due to Nullifiers) CC, but she is not the dynamic, fluid frame that rewards adapting-- indeed, looking at how more than half her kit demands build ups, she actively punishes adaptation.

Closest thing you can get is to altern between spamming rest and spamming maim-- and since Maim has a stunn, Rest tends to be redundant for the most part of the star chart.

Also, Mend. Screw Mend.

You know, I used to give really, really long texts on Equinox, and how she is in dire need of a rework and she's a failure of design, but ever since Rebecca said she thought she was "in a good position right now"-- even though Peaceful Provocation is what it is-- I simply don't bother anymore.

And I have 400 hours on her.

 

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Also, that "Let's ensure that Maim has the icon right at the start so that the player can be really really sure that Maim's active, but god forbid us giving Mend icons showing which allies are and aren't in range. No, that would be overpowered.

That and having this frame having the powers transform with metamorphosis instead of deactivating. Noooo, it's not like she was made to be, like, fluid and rewarding adaptation right?!

Man, I can see you've been fighting this uphill battle for a while now.

See the problem is that Equinox is in an...'OK-ish" spot. She's strong with peaceful provocation and Mend can keep her topped off if you're careful and Maim is still...well, Maim. 

She's not as horribad as some of the shining turds Ala Limbo and Hydroid, who are so trash garbage that they have become meme's.

So by comparison, Equinox IS in a good possition right now When the garbage twins get fixed, she won't be in a good spot anymore by comparison.

I don't think she needs a full on rework, just...tweaked. Have her numbers carry over between forms, have peaceful provocation be rolled into her 3 so her 3 actually does something, but make it so you lose half the charge you build up when switching forms, so if you have 100k of maim, you get 50k of Mend when switching, you have 80% of Pacify, you get 80% of Provoke, but if you have 80% provoke, you get 40% Pacify (Since you start with half-full stack of Provoke)

Her time will come...hopefully. Least we can look at the silver lining, and see that she is at least minorly useful in all occasions.

Cuz Limbo...F*** I put 4 Forma into that #@*&$@ and I still can't get him to work in anything but Spy and Rescue.

[--Q--uaint]

19 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

She's a great failure of execution: Good at killing and (provided you dont die due to Nullifiers) CC, but she is not the dynamic, fluid frame that rewards adapting-- indeed, looking at how more than half her kit demands build ups, she actively punishes adaptation.

4 minutes ago, ShadeC said:

I don't think she needs a full on rework, just...tweaked. Have her numbers carry over between forms, have peaceful provocation be rolled into her 3 so her 3 actually does something, but make it so you lose half the charge you build up when switching forms, so if you have 100k of maim, you get 50k of Mend when switching, you have 80% of Pacify, you get 80% of Provoke, but if you have 80% provoke, you get 40% Pacify (Since you start with half-full stack of Provoke)

Reading these posts, I realized that DE's idea of balancing Equinox's ability to do everything well is requiring buildups to do so.

This makes restarting from the ground up an important part of her balance, in their eyes.

I dunno if I agree with that, but I'm pretty sure I understand their view on it now.

EDIT: and they probably did that because Oberon does a little of everything... and fails at most of it. So Equinox has unique and powerful mechanics... but can only do one thing at a time and it's clunky to switch.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[ShadeC]

1 minute ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Reading these posts, I realized that DE's idea of balancing Equinox's ability to do everything well is requiring buildups to do so.

This makes restarting from the ground up an important part of her balance, in their eyes.

I dunno if I agree with that, but I'm pretty sure I understand their view on it now.

See I'd be fine with that, really, I would be, as nice as it would be to just build up a billion points of mend and then switch to Day form, keep the build and murder EVERYTHING, I understand that that may be just a bit too good.

However, Equinox does not do everything well. Her 3 is a nothing ability without the augment, and her Night form 4, Mend, is as lackluster as they get. Its a slightly glorified Renewal, a massively nut-kicked Blessing, a poor mans health and shield pizza.

If her 4 was changed to my idea, even with the decay I mentioned, then I'd be fine with havind to build up from the ground up every time I switch, like I'm even OK with having chroma run away every 40-50 seconds so I can re-gain my massive manage and armor values. I'm even OK with that garbage. As long as the frame actually has good abilities that really work well, like Chroma's 2 and 3, I'm slightly annoyed, but mostly OK with it.

Equinox has only one good ability. Her Maim in day form, and her Peaceful Provocation Augmented 3 in night form. She needs to have two really good abilities in ONE form and I'll say 'OK, fine, whatever, good enough.'

DE's a good company, they obviously love the game and try their hardest, but sometimes they just made descisions that I cannot understand...like, how in the world did it take them upwards of a year to realize that having Mesa be screwed out of her 2's damage buff if she has team mates was a BAD thing? Like her Peacemaker not taking secondary mods, fine, whatever, I can get that, Excal and Valk were the only ones to take into consideration mods at the time and that was Melee, maybe it just flew over their heads since they got more than just balance to worry about. But the design of her 2 was just...how do you F*** that up so bad. Its not even that it was a bad ability was just...anti-team mates.

[tnccs215]

Oh, forgot more salt:

Also: Enemy Damage reduction falling off with distance on Pacify, but cost per enemy being equal all throughout the range. Cause fair trade is for those damn hippies, right?

Also, having Provoke be simultaneously one of the area buffing abilities with shorter range and one of the few that demands ally proximity-- on a rather mobile frame no less.

But hey, making her comfortable to use would be overpowered right? Better ti just let Rest be cheese spamm and Maim suffering WoF syndrome at lower levels to compensate the rest of lazy design.

26 minutes ago, ShadeC said:

So by comparison, Equinox IS in a good possition right now When the garbage twins get fixed, she won't be in a good spot anymore by comparison.

Quite honestly, DE seems to be having really low standards.

Ugh. Honestly, I want to continue this conversation, with a little less salt and a little more ground. I just need some time to do stuff around the house...

Also, yes. I've been fighting this fight for a year and a half.

[--Q--uaint]

7 minutes ago, ShadeC said:

However, Equinox does not do everything well.

I mean, I didn't say they succeeded in making her do everything well. ;3

10 minutes ago, ShadeC said:

how in the world did it take them upwards of a year to realize that having Mesa be screwed out of her 2's damage buff if she has team mates was a BAD thing?

On a side note, the damage buff from Mesa's 2 is negligible unless you're using an unmodded weapon. The buff doesn't (to my knowledge) scale with mods at all.

The primary thing with Mesa's 2 is the almost complete perpetual denial of action that Shooting Gallery imposes on nearby enemies. Combined with Shatter Shield, Shooting Gallery makes Mesa basically invincible.

13 minutes ago, ShadeC said:

Peacemaker not taking secondary mods, fine, whatever, I can get that, Excal and Valk were the only ones to take into consideration mods at the time

When Mesa was released, there weren't any 'frame abilities that scaled with weapon mods. Ash is the only possible exception, and that's kind of an iffy case.

[ShadeC]

35 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh, forgot more salt:

Also: Enemy Damage reduction falling off with distance on Pacify, but cost per enemy being equal all throughout the range. Cause fair trade is for those damn hippies, right?

Also, having Provoke be simultaneously one of the area buffing abilities with shorter range and one of the few that demands ally proximity-- on a rather mobile frame no less.

But hey, making her comfortable to use would be overpowered right? Better ti just let Rest be cheese spamm and Maim suffering WoF syndrome at lower levels to compensate the rest of lazy design.

Quite honestly, DE seems to be having really low standards.

Ugh. Honestly, I want to continue this conversation, with a little less salt and a little more ground. I just need some time to do stuff around the house...

Also, yes. I've been fighting this fight for a year and a half.

See I keep paying Im fine with how Peaceful Provocation Pacify works, and thats most likely because...well. Your statement about DE and really low standards.

That is completely true, when it comes to the frames themselves. They try to make the game look good, function correctly and be mostly fun, but when it comes to the frames they...seem to become a bit lazy "We made a new one, oh its kinda S#&$? Meh, we'll get to it in like...a year or three."

So I kinda just accept it and try to get the bare minimum without asking for any QoL stuff.

 

34 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I mean, I didn't say they succeeded in making her do everything well. ;3

True...wish they did though.

35 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

On a side note, the damage buff from Mesa's 2 is negligible unless you're using an unmodded weapon. The buff doesn't (to my knowledge) scale with mods at all.

The primary thing with Mesa's 2 is the almost complete perpetual denial of action that Shooting Gallery imposes on nearby enemies. Combined with Shatter Shield, Shooting Gallery makes Mesa basically invincible.

Oh thats just...lovely. Just completely lovely...eh, at least the stun is nice. But yeah I still stand by the fact that it took them upwards of a year to figure out "Hey, losing your buff to a team mate is kinda S#&$" is kinda sad.

36 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

When Mesa was released, there weren't any 'frame abilities that scaled with weapon mods. Ash is the only possible exception, and that's kind of an iffy case.

I did not know that. Truth be told I only came in when Frost Prime came back and Trinity Prime had just released, so I just assumed, since by then both Valk and Excal had scaling, but Mesa didn't. Well I guess that ones justified...wait...wait no its not.

If they started implementing scaling on 'exalted' weapons then why not on peacemakers?  Oh for ffqwarsgfhj

[(PSN)BossNotACapo]

Equinox is my favorite frame and she'd be perfect if 1 metamorphosis buffs didn't decay. Rest is fine the range is small but the sleep duration makes up for it. 2 Rage should be a team buff as in enemy vulnerability from all sources 20-30-40-50% and team buff to speed 5-10-15-20%. Provoke is fine. 3 Pacify should be a flat damage reduction power and kill the energy drain, make it duration based. Maim no argument there. 4 Mend should have a stagger proc or something with a percentage of health restored to allies in range per kill and the rest being stored. With the stored points being used as a heal to allies in range and any additional points used for over shields. And last but not least all points accrued for Mend and Maim carry over when switching forms. Then she'd truly be The jack of all trades frame as intended. 

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, (PS4)BossNotACapo said:

Equinox is my favorite frame and she'd be perfect if 1 metamorphosis buffs didn't decay. Rest is fine the range is small but the sleep duration makes up for it. 2 Rage should be a team buff as in enemy vulnerability from all sources 20-30-40-50% and team buff to speed 5-10-15-20%. Provoke is fine. 3 Pacify should be a flat damage reduction power and kill the energy drain, make it duration based. Maim no argument there. 4 Mend should have a stagger proc or something with a percentage of health restored to allies in range per kill and the rest being stored. With the stored points being used as a heal to allies in range and any additional points used for over shields. And last but not least all points accrued for Mend and Maim carry over when switching forms. Then she'd truly be The jack of all trades frame as intended. 

First, commas.

Second: She's not a Jack of All Trades.

That's the first and biggest misconception about her that leads to the community being so satisfied with her current state.

You know why she isn't a Jack of All Trades? Because she cant do everything she can do at the same time.

This is a fast paced, reactive game. Here, not having all your abilities (or roles) at your disposal instantly is a very, very big issue. Indeed, so big, that the simple need to reactivate deactivated abilities on Metamorphosis is beyond annoying.

So no, she isn't and wasn't meant to be a Jack of All Trades. She was meant to be a hybrid frame between a Jack of All Trades and a Specialized frame; having more powerful and specialized powers than a Jack, but the inability to use them all simultaneously; as well as less powerful and specialized powers than a Specialized Frame, but being able to do more than just that.

The problems of design, of course, is two fold:

1)Powers aren't good enough to be worth the inability to use them simultaneously. That is, if you rearrange some power effects (inside the aspect), each aspect is pretty much... Half a Frame. Indeed, I think that a Frame that has all powers of Equinox aglutinated into 4 wouldn't be that ungodly. Quite honestly, she'd just be... A good frame. Maybe she could have some toning down, with Maim loosing the initial Damage and Rest become less spammable, but all in all, a good frame.  Why is this a problem?
Well, because this means she is pretty much an (reworked, that doesnt feel lackluster in powers and actually has some scalability) Oberon that can only use Reckoning and Smite, or Hallowed Ground and Renewal. That is, she currently is a frame with the power level of a Jack and none of the quick access to powers a Jack has.

She has the worst of both worlds.

2)As I said before, due to its fast pace and unpredictable enemy movement, warframe is not only a fast game, but also a reactive one.

It is not very easy to predict enemy response except on very particular cases, and this means very proactive powers, that demand, investment, prediction of use and, above all else, time; really don't shine a lot. He'll, one of the biggest complains about weapons is... Swap time. Which really isn't that big compared to other games. But anything that isn't instant on such a fast paced game is a liability. Time delays are excusable and acceptable of slow, coreographed paced like Dark Souls. But in here? No. Simply no.

Now, if you build a frame based around adaptation and role change, but also make her powers demand exactly that proactive, investing and time consuming effort without rewarding quick changes... Than you have a failure of a design, crumbled due to its horrendous mechanical dissonance.

No other frame demands constant time being wasted casting and repowering up abilities for using other abilities. Equinox isn't two frames that are independent. She's one frame with a power (Metamorphosis) that changes the way other powers behave. Having all abilities deactivate as they do make as much sense has having to recast all abilities when entering RazorWing on Titania.

Not only is this harmful and dissonant to the Frame, it's also annoying to the player. It's uncomfortable, unrewarding, and does nothing but making the frame feel studery to play-- and to effectively lock you out of half her kit if you even consider changing aspects.

And this is without talking about build-ups.

... Screw build-ups.
------------------

In short, not only is she too clunky and unrewarding to use adaptively and with constant form change; each form is also not powerful enough so that as even instant and convenient form change would be worth it.

Do I think she needs a full rework? Well, I think she needs a Saryn Rework. A full repurpose and rebalancing one, focused on taking away the excessive power of OP abilities (because, Im oh so sorry, but Rest is cheesy as hell, and a rather frenetic ability for a frame based around passivity and restoration. compare to Maim's "walk around checking a counter" extremely active gameplay. Isn't it ironic how the supposedly active frame is so passive, and the passive frame (barring Pacify builds) so Active?) and give the frame an actual main playstyle and obedience to a theme.

TL;DR:

-Equinox isn't meant to be a Jack frame: She's a hybrid frame between a Jac and a Specialized Frame: Without having the instant access of a Jack and the enormous power of a Specialized, but being more powerful than a Jack and having more adaptability than a Specialized (in the form of power alteration).

-I believe that a perfect Equinox would have each Aspect having the equivalent of 3/4ths the power of a full specialized frame, and having non-punishing form changing so that to allow linearity and gameplay fluidity.

-Equinox currently features little more than the power level of a good Jack Frame, while not only not having the instant access to diverse powers these frames have, and also being awfully unrewarding to access to other powers. i.e., she has the worst of both worlds.

-My vague solutions: Actually make Night a worthwhile defensive and restoring Form instead of the CC cheese fest she is, make Day form a bit more than Maim (I mean, let's be honest: Even provoke can be ignored), and make Form changing comfortable and non-punishing at the very least, and downright rewarding at the very best.

Edited October 25, 2016 by tnccs215

[ShadeC]

51 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

-snip

The main, biggest issue I can guess is the fact that you lose everything when switching forms...you know the more I think about it, the more I see that there really is absolutely no reason as to why we shouldn't be allowed to switch with full stacks.

I mean, you could argue about Pacify and Provoke, cuz Provoke starts with some % while Pacify starts at 0, but that could be fixed by just having you only take HALF of what you've built up, simple enough for Mend & Maim but for Pacify and Provoke It'd be, and Im taking this from my 200% PS Peaceful Provocation build, If you start in Night from, get up to 80% Slow, go to day form, you get 80% Provoke, you switch from Day to night, you only have 20% Pacify (as you only need to build up 40% as you start with 40 on day form), yes its still a bit S#&$ty and punishes you for shifting, but its better than what we've got.

Of course you could just start with 40% in both and have to build up the rest and carry over only 20% each time you shift so you get 60% but eh...I don't think the anti-fun gods would allow that so not worth trying really.

I don't think her build-up mechanics are gonna go away, on either ability, but maybe if Mend was actually made worthwhile (Or at the very fuckin' least functioned as stated on the ability), Rage was made NOT massively detrimental to your and your teams well being, and she was allowed to switch with at least some stacks remaining, it would be a lot better on the whole.

You're right about her not being a jack of all trades, cuz if she was she'd have all her abilities available at the same time, what she SHOULD be is a mix between Ivara (Rest), Nova (Augmented Pacify/) and Trinity (Mend), and Ash (Maim) and Rhino (Provoke PS increase and Rage's damage multiplier). Sounds super OP OP right?

Not really. When you consider that all five of those frames are on the whole much better than Equinox, even if she got all those changes we wish for so dearly. Inferior range and Numbers across all abilities when compared to those five...BUT, she can do all that and doesn't have to be limited to one specialty, thats the entire draw of the frame methinks.

...

Plus night form is just so damned pretty. 

[Chewarette]

The main problem I have with Equinox is his nightform's Mend. That's way too painful to use, especially in that game where you die in one second if you start being attacked by too many enemies. Sometimes I cannot react quickly enough to save people with Trini (just hitting 4), how am I supposed to heal anybody if I have to use the spell, stack some power and release it ?

At least, Mend should have the same kind of thing as Maim, a passive for all enemies or allies in the power's range. Maim has a Slash status with several-second-long blinding. Mend should at least, using the same logic, lessen the accuracy of all the enemies in range (well, it's night time dudes !).

We could even think about an interaction with Mirage, Mend would force her Eclipse buff to the "night" one and Maim the "light". Would make sense (but maybe a little bit trolley). :D

Edited October 25, 2016 by Chewarette

[(PSN)doublenought_7]

After reading everything here, I'm starting to see Equinox not as the jack of all trades, switching as you please, but as a frame meant to fill one role at a time, either protect and heal, or buff and damage, literally being one frame at a time.

Consider her as Trinity and Nova (or whichever two best mirror her abilities), and don't think she's meant to play all of her abilities for each battle, but instead you plan for each mission, switching only to fill the gaps in your team without having to build and forma a new frame entirely. And I'm not saying night for defense and day for exterminate every time, but if your team has a Trinity or Nyx, play day and blow things up and boost powers. If they've got Valkyr or Inaros, play night and keep them healthy and taking reduced damage. She should be treated as two separate frames that fill two separate roles, not some potential nuke that can blow through a map all alone because she has all the power all the time. I think that's why her abilities have those build up requirements and she doesn't just flow one from the other, she was not intended to be played that way. 

That being said, some of her abilities still need to be improved to make each form feel like a full fledged frame, such as each form having permanent boosts to feel fully independent of each other, but for me Mend is the only big issue. I feel like it should either have an unlimited range with less healing bursts or a constant heal, or it should keep its short range and have unlimited healing potential, granting bonus armor and overshields. If you go the second route, not having a cap on the amount of shields granted would help to scale into endgame, but reducing the amount granted by each additional person in range could keep it from being overpowering, and I don't just mean divide by 4, but an actual reduction, so for two people only 90% of the stored amount can be used for healing/shields, three gets 75% and four only get 60%. You still get massive defenses, but the reduction prevents you from just going into the millions and being indestructible.

Edited October 25, 2016 by (PS4)doublenought_7

[Soketsu]

After playing Equinox as main frame, I thinks is more about play 2 frame in a battle and in order to be efficient in high level mission you have to choose if you going to be

-the great destroyer / the heralt of morphee (simple cleaning weak ennemy as day equinox, CC & murder the other as night equinox)

-or just deadly assassin/semi tank and his brutal & volatile clone (encourage to change form every time you clone die if you got to destroy heavy targets like boss or elite foes, even more brutal when you got the day buff, huge burst of damage)

-or the powerful strenght buffer / debuffer (I don't like the last one, encourage too much to stay in one form in order to loose all gathered buff) [I must admit at this stage I prefer to take a Nova, way more efficient in speed & destruction abilities]

after you can still use the other power whatever the configuration but either not in their optimal effects or fewer times

 

2 thing that I want to be worked on is to give a way to mend to be really interresting, not waisting 1m heal or wait to kill 10 foes ino rder to be able to fully heal my allies/ not loosing the power I gain when I use my 4 (whatever the form)  or the augmented 3

But when I look at the other frame I remember Equinox will have to wait a long time and I'm already strong enough, especially since they not interrest to go in high endless level mission right now

8 hours ago, Chewarette said:

We could even think about an interaction with Mirage, Mend would force her Eclipse buff to the "night" one and Maim the "light". Would make sense (but maybe a little bit trolley). :D

It could be so epic, even more what you say give me an idea for team gameplay: "giving synergy between 2 differents frame" but it's not the right topic in order to speak about it ^^

Edited October 25, 2016 by Soketsu

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, (PS4)doublenought_7 said:

After reading everything here, I'm starting to see Equinox not as the jack of all trades, switching as you please, but as a frame meant to fill one role at a time, either protect and heal, or buff and damage, literally being one frame at a time.

(...)

I think that's why her abilities have those build up requirements and she doesn't just flow one from the other, she was not intended to be played that way. 

There is a issue there.

since each aspect doesnt have powerful (or well designed) enough kits by themselves, and since you are constantly and utterly punished for changing aspect...

Isnt it better to just bring either Nova or Trinity?

That is the thing. I dont expect incredible synergy between each Aspect. Indeed, I think not having them being synergetic is actually the main counterbalancing factor.

But Equinox is, above all else, meant to be adaptable. She is meant to be able to adapt to the situation at hand, becoming offensive or defensive as the situation demands or allows.

But since Warframe has such a reactive gameplay, doing that is simply impossible. It truly, truly is.

Unless you ignore an enormous part of her kit (I.e. Everything but Rest, Metamorphosis and Maim), she virtually is the Frame equivalent to the Dark Split Sword.

There is no point in her being two frames in which you are virtually forced to stick to one for the mission. Better just pick an actual, full made frame.

So yes. She must be able to quickly and efficiently change form, without any form of punishment, and having a level of efficiency at a role set between that of a Jack frame, and that of a specialized.

Edited October 25, 2016 by tnccs215

[Kalvorax]

I've been trying the peaceful provocation pacify...and honestly..it absolutely sucks to build up...25 damage for 1% is utter garbage...should by 25 damage for 5% (yes 5%) especially against something like infested (where this absolutely SHINES) I may not be running 200% STR...but its still 72% max for my current build (will post once i max her again, just forma'd)....The infested become absolute cake to fight (did a 45 min solo apollo...only reason i left was due to synoid sim being on the wrong build.)

 

Dar I say it...but having to take damage to slow the enemies down is stupid...should be kill based at 1% or even 0.5% per kill.....as her Day form is damage based increase, you can get to max REALLY REALLY quickly compared to Night form.

Edited October 27, 2016 by xcynderx