Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[Coherent_Exile]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

There's always plenty of people willing to taxi players to alerts.

There's something I'm unclear on. Your phrasing in the OP confuses me (also I'm a little drunk). Are you saying that endless should award more relics? Or that you feel relics aren't plentiful enough for newer players, so running them is a hard choice?

Because the way I'm interpreting your suggestion is that rotations provide a bonus to the result of your relic. But your suggestion about this indicates to me you're not aware of the drop chances. Under the old void system, most rare drops had a 5% rate and tables were heavily polluted. An intact relic has a 2% chance of awarding the rare result. At exceptional, that increases to 4%. At flawless, it's 6%. At radiant, 10%. If four players have a radiant relic equipped, the average chance that at least one of them will roll the rare result is 34%. Which means, on average, a squad with four radiants will receive the rare result on one-in-three runs. Increasing the odds of a radiant relic awarding the rare part even by an additional 5% brings the average odds of a radiant squad to about 50%. So you can understand my reticence.

Rebecca made the suggestion to auto-radiant equipped relics at rotation C. This is also a questionable idea. If a squad chooses to forego a relic for the first three rotations, and simply earn traces, they can equip what would otherwise be a trash relic at rot C and get easy rares. Then, using the 24-120 traces they earned (unless they have Smeeta/booster, in which case it would be 72-240+), they can radiant a relic for the next run and have extremely high odds at a rare for two rotations.

I'm not against this because I hate getting cool stuff. On the contrary, I would have to force myself to do anything but endless. And that's the problem. Void fatigue came from running the same damn mission on the same tileset over and over and over. At worst, this is still better than that because you're seeing multiple tilesets, and any endless mission type will do. You have a choice, albeit an unbalanced one, whereas before you had none. My concern is that excavation is already the best relic farm because it's so fast. Under the above system, it would also be the best place to crack relics and get traces.

However, if all you want is more relics, syndicates are an excellent source of them. But I wouldn't be against more options for obtaining them. Spy missions in particular could use a shot at relics in A and B rotations, with rot C being a guaranteed relic (all only on perfect runs, of course). Finding all caches in sabotage takes forever; giving it the same treatment would only be fair. Exterminate and capture have always had terrible rewards.

I'd honestly prefer to see what it is like with the new endless before considering this idea any further more than just an idea. I want to see if the traces are enough to get people to play endless.

What I talk about is I find that I don't get enough relics at the rate I am using them and to get those relics I am effectively having repeat the same mission type of the same tileset over and over just to then use them all in a matter for a few minutes while taking 20 minutes to get 3-4 decent relics. 

My main issue with relics is that I spend so long getting traces for a radiant and then if I want it to actually mean something I need 4 other people to use theirs (usually ending with no one getting rare) 

It might be a higher chance drop rate when upgraded but for any other time outside of a full upgrade you have a tiny chance to get a rare to drop. 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

12 minutes ago, Coherent_Exile said:

What I talk about is I find that I don't get enough relics at the rate I am using them and to get those relics I am effectively having repeat the same mission type of the same tileset over and over just to then use them all in a matter for a few minutes while taking 20 minutes to get 3-4 decent relics. 

This is actually something I highlighted at length in another thread. It will be a long time before veterans are affected by the difference between relics earned and spent, but it will come much sooner with the opportunity to spend relics at every rotation. It's something new players face right away. 20 minutes is kind of a long time just for 2-3 relics; Heiracon is a major timesaver. That's not being optimal, that's being conscious of the fact that people have bodies that require nutrients, physical activity, sleep, companionship, employment, etc.

So yes, I don't mind more sources of relics. They're not scarce by any means, but time is a factor. A while back, I believe Rebecca or Steve mentioned the possibility of Eximus units dropping relics.

Edited November 3, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[Coherent_Exile]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

This is actually something I highlighted at length in another thread. It will be a long time before veterans are affected by the difference between relics earned and spent, but it will come much sooner with the opportunity to spend relics at every rotation. It's something new players face right away. 20 minutes is kind of a long time just for 2-3 relics; Heiracon is a major timesaver. That's not being optimal, that's being conscious of the fact that people have bodies that require nutrients, physical activity, sleep, companionship, employment, etc.

So yes, I don't mind more sources of relics. They're not scarce by any means, but time is a factor. A while back, I believe Rebecca or Steve mentioned the possibility of Eximus units dropping relics.

I feel if they added them to random mission rewards, Made enemies drop them and allowing for alerts to give them as rewards it would be much better. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Coherent_Exile

[Kimimoto]

5 hours ago, Coherent_Exile said:

1: with each rotation the rarity of your relic would increase, so an unranked relic would be a radiant relic by the fourth reward.

2: so if you use a unranked relic on reward 4 then it would be equivalent to the drop chances of a radiant but for actually radiant relics they would get a buff to their rare drop chances but not as much as an unranked. 

3: Not that I can't handle the grind, it simply falls to the new player experience and just not a fun set of grinding. The grind for relics is boring and isn't productive enough and for a new player getting relics at a decent rate is terrible since to effectively play on the best relic drop spots require mostly higher level gear. 

4: Relics drop in multiples and it scales better with the missions level. A level 39+ giving 3-4-5 relics per turn, I'd say at least at level 15 it should increase to 2 relic drops.

5: Relics come in alerts, dropping also in packs of multiples and some upgraded.  

 

 

1: You've already stated the issue of bringing a none intact relic. Isn't this basically what the scaling traces will be doing in a non-direct way? If relics are going to scale like that then endless shouldn't drop traces. I'd much prefer to see a way to refine relics on the endless check points, than see relics scale like that.

2: This idea isn't horrible but it needs a bit of tweaking. Having the refined relics become more effective as time goes on, but not as drastically as you stated.  For example if the rare piece on Radiant relics has a 10% drop rate, for each rotation this chance will be buffed by a base 5%. By the time you hit the first C rotation the chance will be at 12%, then on the second it will be 14%. A 40% increase on the Radiant base rare drop chance by wave 40 isn't too bad, and it's not too broken.

3: This isn't so much a problem with endless as it is with how relics drop. I remember DE mentioning that they were thinking of having relics drop of eximus(goodbye oberon parts). It would be nice if they made relics drops more consistent between the star chart, because as you stated a good amount of the "good" relic farms are higher levels. Endless should be dropping relics as you do it too, so it should cut the amount of relics you need to use by close to half I imagine.

4: After 5 minutes you get 2 prime parts instead of 1, scaling up as time goes on? That's not a good idea, that will increase drops(rare drops too) way too much. The whole system will be inflated and there will be major economical problems.

5: I agree with this idea, but it has to be reasonable. The difficulty should scale the more upgraded a relic is, Radiant's should be around the difficulty of the last sortie. Having multiple relics drop would be nice as well, it would give me a reason to do some alerts. I do think if this idea were to be implemented there shouldn't be more than 1 every few days.

 

Overall I think the proposed ideas are not alright, but they are a good point to start a discussion

Edited November 3, 2016 by Kimimoto

[Coherent_Exile]

2 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

 

1: You've already stated the issue of bringing a none intact relic. Isn't this basically what the scaling traces will be doing in a non-direct way? If relics are going to scale like that then endless shouldn't drop traces. I'd much prefer to see a way to refine relics on the endless check points, than see relics scale like that.

 

2: This idea isn't horrible but it needs a bit of tweaking. Having the refined relics become more effective as time goes on, but not as drastically as you stated.  For example if the rare piece on Radiant relics has a 10% drop rate, for each rotation this chance will be buffed by a base 5%. By the time you hit the first C rotation the chance will be at 12%, then on the second it will be 14%. A 40% increase on the Radiant base rare drop chance by wave 40 isn't too bad, and it's not too broken.

 

3: This isn't so much a problem with endless as it is with how relics drop. I remember DE mentioning that they were thinking of having relics drop of eximus(goodbye oberon parts). It would be nice if they made relics drops more consistent between the star chart, because as you stated a good amount of the "good" relic farms are higher levels.

 

4: After 5 minutes you get 2 prime parts instead of 1, scaling up as time goes on? That's not a good idea, that will increase drops(rare drops too) way too much. The whole system will be inflated and there will be major economical problems.

 

5: I agree with this idea, but it has to be reasonable. The difficulty should scale the more upgraded a relic is, Radiant's should be around the difficulty of the last sortie. Having multiple relics drop would be nice as well, it would give me a reason to do some alerts. I do think if this idea were to be implemented there shouldn't be more than 1 every few days.

 

Overall I think the proposed ideas are not alright, but they are a good point to start a discussion

I was mainly just giving ideas but it wouldn't scale outside of each set. So an intact would have 2% for a rare again if used on the 5th set. 

[Kimimoto]

54 minutes ago, Coherent_Exile said:

I was mainly just giving ideas but it wouldn't scale outside of each set. So an intact would have 2% for a rare again if used on the 5th set. 

Doesn't this also give the problem of why go past 20 waves, much like people are currently stating why go past 5 waves?

I understand peoples desire for an increase in reward chance, but what most people have proposed will outright break the game. A small gradual increase that rewards players who can go further is the best players may be able to get. I personally don't see a problem with DEs proposed system and will be playing it pretty much exclusively for Fissure missions, but a system that rewards players ever so slightly for going further and further wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Kimimoto]

10 hours ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

This proposed system is just as bad as what we currently have. I hope the feedback given here encourages them rethink the endless revival because traces are not going to bring it back. Not sure how they even thought those were proper motivation.

If I told you back in the old void that if you went longer you could have a higher chance at the Ash BP on the next Defense you run, you don't think you'd be down for that?

Traces = rare chances, that's more than enough motivation

[blackheartstar_pc]

2 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

If I told you back in the old void that if you went longer you could have a higher chance at the Ash BP on the next Defense you run, you don't think you'd be down for that?

Traces = rare chances, that's more than enough motivation

Maybe for you man. Many others like myself have no use for and see no value in Traces.

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

Maybe for you man. Many others like myself have no use for and see no value in Traces.

The only other reason to run Fissures besides getting rarer pieces/traces would be to get Ducats. Which if Endless is anything but 1relic-1reward, than Baro's prices will be adjusted accordingly. I'm really failing to understand what people really want, because if Endless only requires 1 relic that's all people will run. If that's all people run "they really need to rethink capture/spy/MD/exterminate/sabotage" will be the new complaint. See the problem here? If everything is better than the previous thing then it's a constant cycle of trying to keep things relevant, and i think they have more than enough of that already.

 

I feel like all the controversy over endless and really the relic system in general can really boil down to "but I only want to use 1 relic for the whole squad." They're not going to revert it to the old void system that's the whole reason they changed it, maybe after 5-6 years when they re-rework the fissures back into the void.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Kimimoto

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

7 hours ago, Coherent_Exile said:

I feel if they added them to random mission rewards, Made enemies drop them and allowing for alerts to give them as rewards it would be much better. 

I highly doubt alerts would contribute to your relic collection in a meaningful way. They're not just going to give the entire community an Axi T1, for instance. It would only be something meh that even a newer player could easily obtain on their own. Maxing your syndicate isn't the best way for new players to earn them because of daily standing. And although it's rare, capture can award a relic. All endless mission types have them in rot C as well, with missions over lv22 sometimes awarding them in rotations A and B. I've always hated mobile defense, but if it had a little change to its mission structure, it could give multiple rewards like sabotage.

Honestly, eximus are so frequent past lv15 that I think that's all you'd need. It can't be a 100% drop chance, of course, that would result in dozens of relics in just 20m from things like Heiracon or Mot. Maybe a 15-20% drop chance or something, with the era determined by enemy level and identity randomized.

[Coherent_Exile]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I highly doubt alerts would contribute to your relic collection in a meaningful way. They're not just going to give the entire community an Axi T1, for instance. It would only be something meh that even a newer player could easily obtain on their own. Maxing your syndicate isn't the best way for new players to earn them because of daily standing. And although it's rare, capture can award a relic. All endless mission types have them in rot C as well, with missions over lv22 sometimes awarding them in rotations A and B. I've always hated mobile defense, but if it had a little change to its mission structure, it could give multiple rewards like sabotage.

Honestly, eximus are so frequent past lv15 that I think that's all you'd need. It can't be a 100% drop chance, of course, that would result in dozens of relics in just 20m from things like Heiracon or Mot. Maybe a 15-20% drop chance or something, with the era determined by enemy level and identity randomized.

Well if they were added to alerts I'd be able to sometimes randomly get a guaranteed reward of a certain type of relic. 

[I3jionaa]

Regarding scamming relics, lets say squad agrees do 3 radiant relics in 15 waves of defence.

First relic is no problem, u cant scam it. Now second third is a subject. One guy messes up, picks wrong relic or tries to scam in last seconds of picking relics. So the only option is not collect reactant, but u still lose time.

What would help is having a "vote for extraction" button within 1 minute picking up relics is done. Any member can hit "Esc" and can initiate a vote for extraction. Squad members vote through "Esc" aswell. If u initiate such vote you automatically letting know the rest of squad u will be extracting in 30 seconds(voting timer) at this point rest squad members decide if they want to stay or extract aswell.

So person who started vote cannot change his vote at all, while rest of the squad cannot change their votes after 20 seconds passed in vote timer. However if u remained neutral during first 20 seconds of voting u are able to vote one single time during those 10 remaining seconds(not really a vote, just choise between staying and extracting). If all squad picked exactly the same relic of same quality, there should be no such button available. Also should not impact traces runs, one guy leaves who cares right. To make it not that annoying in public runs, this "vote for extraction" button should only be available in "INVITE ONLY" & "FRIENDS ONLY" modes. And can we actually finally see what mode host has selected ?

There should be some sort of deadline as i described & after that collecting reactant is the only problem, if u scam at this point, most likely u will be ignored by the rest of the squad.

Anti-scam police ^^ good lord why do i even bother. Reasons!

[blackheartstar_pc]

13 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

If that's all people run "they really need to rethink capture/spy/MD/exterminate/sabotage"

Even as it is now I'd say this is true. All of the listed mission types need to be lengthened imo. I only enjoy playing Survival and Excavation. Defense even though endless doesn't have enough moving around to keep me entertained. Either way it's a topic for another thread.

[Zoomie-Kaboomie]

On 11/1/2016 at 3:41 PM, Legacy_STALKER said:

So endless are coming back.Yey.But there are some things ppl dont agree upon like having to chose new relic ever round/5min/5waves witch is a problem if you dont have metric ton of them.The problem im seeing here is that if we stay longer we are not getting anything other then more void traces witch I think is meh at best.What i suggest is that if we stay past first 2 rounds/10min/10waves we get % increase to rear drops in relics and it keeps rising ever 5-10 mins in sur or... you get the idea.Or maybe we can chose at break points(end of rund/5 min sur/5 waves im caling them like that now) not to take reward and doing that buffs next relic we chose by %.

Thoughts?

I saw how we had to choose another relic in the "endless" break, and thought... "What is the point in going on if I have to choose another relic?"

This, to me personally, is not the answer I think people were looking for. Before, I could use ONE key and get multiple drops. I see DE's predicament though. We can boost these relics to up the chances of a rare, and if I am endlessly going on one relic, I could potentially get 3 or 4 rares in a row.

Here is my thought. In the breaks, we can choose to stay and keep what reward we got out of the relic, then as we continue let's say our mobility is a little slower now due to the "weight" of what we got. This keeps going and going and pretty soon we are pretty bogged down with rewards we could be running pretty slow. Or something like how the index uses the green things that drop making us a little more squishy.

My last thoughts are; seeing the relic "endless" preview they gave us, I really would never continue. I would exit, then do it again. I'm not interested in staying in by choosing another relic and saving 5 seconds to call it "endless." DE, don't waste your time in that update. It's pointless.

[Nazrethim]

28 minutes ago, Zoomie-Kaboomie said:

I saw how we had to choose another relic in the "endless" break, and thought... "What is the point in going on if I have to choose another relic?"

This, to me personally, is not the answer I think people were looking for. Before, I could use ONE key and get multiple drops. I see DE's predicament though. We can boost these relics to up the chances of a rare, and if I am endlessly going on one relic, I could potentially get 3 or 4 rares in a row.

Here is my thought. In the breaks, we can choose to stay and keep what reward we got out of the relic, then as we continue let's say our mobility is a little slower now due to the "weight" of what we got. This keeps going and going and pretty soon we are pretty bogged down with rewards we could be running pretty slow. Or something like how the index uses the green things that drop making us a little more squishy.

My last thoughts are; seeing the relic "endless" preview they gave us, I really would never continue. I would exit, then do it again. I'm not interested in staying in by choosing another relic and saving 5 seconds to call it "endless." DE, don't waste your time in that update. It's pointless.

I will repeat myself:

ENDLESS IS NOT THE SAME AS FISSURES.

Fissures (and therefore, Prime items) should work the same across all modes: one relic per reward, no exeptions.

Endless modes should give more rewards as you go, maybe rare rewards, but ALL endless, not just fissure ones. The days of endless old void are gone and for good.

[-Sanatorium-]

It's funny because before the old void system actually rewarded you for having the skill to stay 2 hours In a T4 survival, 60 waves in a defense and 30 rounds of interception. Before you start arguing how everyone cheesed the missions, no we didn't. And for those that did bring a banshee/mirage and EV in a T4 interception, they still need the skill to stay up to 30 rounds.

Tell me if you have ever went in a public match for T4 interception and seen cc frames and in the end the team can't do 8 waves... yeah I dare you

Point is, before the void was very rewarding efficient and fun

Why efficient?

Because we didn't have to farm traces, we got more rewards from 1 key

And for all those who say that because now we can make the relics radiant it makes it easier to farm. NO IT DOESN'T. I spent 13 radiants on getting Vauban Prime parts and got none, yesterday I ran the Neo exterminate mission, 2 intacts and got Vauban systems and bp in a row.... yeah tell me now how better it is...

Why fun?

Because staying 2 hours in a survival and cracking jokes with your teammates in the chat was really fun, the anticipation of getting the good part made it even better\

Why rewarding?

Well more rewards from 1 key is way better, doesn't matter if it has 5% drop chance

 

[blackheartstar_pc]

9 hours ago, -Sanatorium- said:

It's funny because before the old void system actually rewarded you for having the skill to stay 2 hours In a T4 survival, 60 waves in a defense and 30 rounds of interception. Before you start arguing how everyone cheesed the missions, no we didn't. And for those that did bring a banshee/mirage and EV in a T4 interception, they still need the skill to stay up to 30 rounds.

Tell me if you have ever went in a public match for T4 interception and seen cc frames and in the end the team can't do 8 waves... yeah I dare you

Point is, before the void was very rewarding efficient and fun

Why efficient?

Because we didn't have to farm traces, we got more rewards from 1 key

And for all those who say that because now we can make the relics radiant it makes it easier to farm. NO IT DOESN'T. I spent 13 radiants on getting Vauban Prime parts and got none, yesterday I ran the Neo exterminate mission, 2 intacts and got Vauban systems and bp in a row.... yeah tell me now how better it is...

Why fun?

Because staying 2 hours in a survival and cracking jokes with your teammates in the chat was really fun, the anticipation of getting the good part made it even better\

Why rewarding?

Well more rewards from 1 key is way better, doesn't matter if it has 5% drop chance

 

So much truth in this post beginning to end.

[VonDodo]

I guess that making rare drop higher at each wave of about a 3% would make endless useful without actually making capture etc useless.

But imho fissure system should be totally reworked or deleted.

Its still bad to spend HOURS to find a matching party for anything that isn t the latest frames/weapons.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

8 hours ago, -Sanatorium- said:

It's funny because before the old void system actually rewarded you for having the skill to stay 2 hours In a T4 survival, 60 waves in a defense and 30 rounds of interception. Before you start arguing how everyone cheesed the missions, no we didn't. And for those that did bring a banshee/mirage and EV in a T4 interception, they still need the skill to stay up to 30 rounds.

Tell me if you have ever went in a public match for T4 interception and seen cc frames and in the end the team can't do 8 waves... yeah I dare you

Point is, before the void was very rewarding efficient and fun

Why efficient?

Because we didn't have to farm traces, we got more rewards from 1 key

And for all those who say that because now we can make the relics radiant it makes it easier to farm. NO IT DOESN'T. I spent 13 radiants on getting Vauban Prime parts and got none, yesterday I ran the Neo exterminate mission, 2 intacts and got Vauban systems and bp in a row.... yeah tell me now how better it is...

Why fun?

Because staying 2 hours in a survival and cracking jokes with your teammates in the chat was really fun, the anticipation of getting the good part made it even better\

Why rewarding?

Well more rewards from 1 key is way better, doesn't matter if it has 5% drop chance

 

This fellow gets it.

[TeaBegging]

This entire Void rework was a bad change.

Coming from a veteran that has played for 3k hours, First of all the game itself went from high risk high reward to no risk high reward.
People basicly can choose their rewards and can stay within the missions as shortly as possible and select the most valuable reward all at once.
Not is this poorly designed the way how the economy works but it also takes away the rarity of those certain set valuable items.

After this entire update went life, a lot of items diminished in value, items became so common. Players were getting sets way to easier so sense of achieving certain items were gone as well. I most likely disliked the update so much that I didn't bother learning it. What's the point anyway it was supposed to be 'easy' to understand and yet it so confusing for me as veteran.

Of course if I give it some time and learned more about then things would be all fine, but the main issue here is 'time' I feel like this game is constantly on a learning curve. I have to constantly learn things, to a certain point that it just discourages players to do so. The key system was so simple that it hardly needed a change. Now every blueprint/item has a specific dropping location and name by their desired loot tables. Considering how much primed gear we have this is terrible way to simplify the old version.

Now lets get to the upcoming Endless runs, The way it was proposed was horrible. Basicly you get to stay longer in the same mission at the price of losing more relics. Not is this the exact opposite of what the keys were doing, but it also takes away the purpose of doing longer runs. There aren't rotations anyway so what's the point of staying longer? Either I am not understanding the process, or this is broken by default.

Instead of releasing a huge change like this, maybe you should have a beta testing going before hand, so we the community can decide if it should be released or not. A game dies when the developer isn't communicating with his audience

[Callback]

I like the idea of just being allowed to pass and continue/retry.  No droprate buffs needed.

 

Just being able to fish for your reward on a single relic radshare is enough.  This works best with def/int, not sure how sur/exc would work.  Instead of the normal extract vs continue, it's now the 4 choices with either claim one or continue.  Continue simply needs to not consume the relic, so if your radshare group gets nothing good, they can just fight another round to try again instead of taking a booby prize and being forced to farm another copy of the relic and several runs of void traces before they can try again.

[aerosoul1337]

The old void key endless: 1 single key for all prime parts for all member, and the rotation drivers people to fight longer.

The new relic endless: it is still each part per relic (per player).
Compare to void key version this isn't worth the time and efforts just for the Void traces.
I will probably still just do multiple fast runs (such as capture) instead of endless.

I feel it is going to the wrong direction.

[aerosoul1337]

My suggestion is simply improving the rewards of void tower endless mission.
The relic quality you get improves with waves.

Example:

For each cycle (rotation A, A, B, C), the quality improves by 1 rank
Intact -> Exceptional -> Flawless -> Radiant
Endo pack multiplier also increases with waves.

Or rewards player unique new stuffs at high waves (new mods/stances/auras and something else).
For example, T4 survival 80 minutes reward specific goodies (guaranteed), challenging based, not RNG based.

In this sample, after 4 cycles, everything is Radiant. (And Lower rank players do not have to worry about the void trace cap, if they are skillful enough)
So you try to do a T4 Interception for 16~20 Waves, if you fail you learn something and then you try different builds... (which is fun to me).
The formula can be fine tuned, this is just an example. (Defense and Survival take more time, maybe those mission improve rewards a bit faster).

For the better reward, I think a key to access void tower is required. But the key should be easier to get, you can craft void keys using materials, just like Derelict keys.
So we keep the relic share system, and endless void missions are tempting and challenging again.

Also, there is still Orokin Derelict there, put it to good use too.

[Dragunova]

Why not a relic for the mission ? As I remember, we had to use 1 key to have the total reward for all the mission

[----Fenrir----]

On 1.11.2016 at 11:25 PM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Actually, it's perfectly balanced. The input/output is the same across all mission types with the proposed changes.

No, because you can easily run 2 capture missions in the time it takes to run 1 survival. The required time input is vastly unbalanced.

Edited November 5, 2016 by ----Fenrir----