[Spoilers] The War Within Bad Game Design

[AscendingDusk]

8 hours ago, Amarsir said:

It's bad design from before it even began.

Warframe is a game about space ninjas. Fast active combat, flipping and shooting and stabbing. It's fun and that's what brought a lot of people in. And yet they keep making us do crap that isn't any of that. Archwing is a different game. Figuring out secret button combos in random Lua rooms is a different game.  Why is that crap in a space ninja game? 

The only thing I can think of is that they're so arrogant that they can't conceive of saying "no" to an idea. Like they thought of it so obviously everyone will want to do it. But then we don't want to... so they make it mandatory.

I don't want to search for random rooms and trial and error my way through whatever secret they thought was so awesome I needed to experience it. Maybe others find that fun, but to me it's a chore and I don't play games for chores. Archwing is the same way. And I know a lot of people dislike the hacker minigames, which is why ciphers are needed to skip those.

Basically DE, you made a good game. And then you keep blocking it with other games that aren't as good, and dumping people in missions with no idea what to do because it makes you feel clever. Stop it.

I don't normally comment here, but I just had to express my support of your statements, because that is just exactly how I feel. It would be perfectly fine with me if those things were optional, but instead DE insists on making them mandatory in any way possible.

Case in point, even before TWW, unlocking the Sedna Junction requires completing the Orokin challenge rooms. Not only are they (in my opinion) unfun, boring and frustrating, but they are also solo hostile (some are next to impossible to do solo except from complex strategies involving specters, Loki decoys and I don't know what else). Most importantly though, they are also not in any way related to the game premise that brought me to the game itself. And by the way, the same goes about unnecessarily frustrating MR tests that also have no translation in the real game (hey, MR11 test), twitch reflex hacking consoles, and countless other examples.

I don't mind things like void parkour rooms as much because they are there only if you want to do them (even though it’s starting to seem DE want people to do them judging from the increasing push into it, but anyway, I digress). But when you make those things bonded to "main" game progression, then there is an issue, and the only explanation I can find is that for some reason DE is hellbent on having players do this stuff, while the majority simply seems to be not interested.

And if they are, which I honestly don't understand the reason for, then maybe the solution is to improve this stuff and make it fun for more people that for those for whom it already is, instead of trying to force people into (what should be) side content that they simply don’t enjoy (and that to be honest in my opinion is simply badly designed and implemented compared to other games focused on such kind of content, in contrast with core mechanics like shooting and abilities that are pretty great and what are brought me and made me love the game initially). I simply cannot understand how it is supposed to be great game design to force players into content they don't enjoy, and frankly does not even fit in the game, by using blindingly artificial and completely unnecessary means and constraints.

Every time I meat such an obstacle, because that is what it is for me, then I simply try to clear it to get back to the game I enjoy. But seeing even more of this added with an increased focus combined with one of the worst RNG systems I have encountered (but that’s a story for another time) is just starting to take a huge toll in my willingness to play the game, despite how much I love its core gameplay.

Why do I have to go through this frustration just to enjoy the core of the game? Forcing me into it does not make me like it anymore, it takes me from being indifferent about it to hating it with a passion, and by continuation starting to hate the game. What does making these things mandatory offer to the game in the end? For me personally it makes me feel that I am in the edge of burnout. I would suppose I am not alone either. I simply don’t understand what is the point of this. Unfortunately, TWW is full of this content, yet again, and these mods seem to be one of the best (or maybe worst) examples yet.

Bonus point: Let alone, I can’t even imagine how DE is going to balance them in future content. Do you balance high level missions around the idea that players will use some god tier randomly generated weapon mods (which would make the content almost impossible for players who didn’t have as good RNG even if they forced themselves through the extremely frustrating and unfun for me challenges to unlock them) or do you balance around the baseline (which would result in players with the god mods obliterating everything and then complaining the game is not “challenging enough”. Or do you just balance around data-mined stats which means whoever is no the wrong end of the average is simply kinda ***, while whoever is on the upper good end simply gets a lucky advantage, all just because RNG RNGed.

Overall, while I loved the cinematics and the story and the addition of some RPG aspects with player choice, I am very disappointed and conflicted about the gameplay decisions and the way DE seems to have chosen to follow in this regard. That is my honest opinion. Sorry for the essay if anyone actually made it through, I can't help it it seems.

Edited November 12, 2016 by AscendingDusk

[Racter]

I actually didn't mind the quest itself, bugs notwithstanding. I take serious issue with the Riven mods and the fact that the new missions on the new tile set have the same rewards as any other random star chart mission, though.

[LeMoog]

Bugs galore, first quest mission had corpus tileset before settling down, in game chat also disabled. managed to get through until "return to the queen" where lighting on my AMD was so bad I couldnt tell if guard was stunned or not.

In the end teminated game and restarted only to be forced back into the same nightmare of relying upon the force to play.

II like difficulty in game but not the torture of playing when the interface and lighting are broken

Edited November 12, 2016 by LeMoog

[Orix_Regula]

I don't post much and I'm still very new to this game.  I have a few opinions on it.

I don't know if I would call this necessarily bad game design but rather not the most ideal to what player may already be used to.  I found tons of info on what I need to do to be prepared for TWW and I got everything done rather quickly and before it launched.  I'm still not very good at this game but I was able to get the Sedna Junction done one Saturday afternoon.  So I don't see much justification in complaining about the junction unless you just started playing or don't have very much time to play.  I work a full-time job and I'm involved in activities outside of work.  I started a little over a month ago and got everything I needed done.  Yes the junction was annoying but it still only took me a few hrs.  

The archwing part was annoying, as well as the golden maw part.  I remembered that gaming is suppose to be challenging at times and got through it.  Then realized once you know what to do it isn't hard (like how a lot of games work).  I do however wish there was some way to accommodate very new players and players who only have a few hrs a week to play.  Other than that, I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is (maybe an actual tutorial for the archwing part?).  Golden maw was just trial and error for me.

As far as TWW as a whole, I greatly enjoyed it.  It looked amazing, had a few new things to do, new items, and a continuation of the lore.  I do understand how the veteran players may think this was not enough.  I can imagine that someone who's been waiting on this update for months may want a lot more content.  I have no ideas for that as I'm not an authority or professional at game design.  It just sucks for them.   

I've had no trouble with lighting or any of the graphics. Yes I know this is subjective.

I got a horrible riven mod but I didn't let it ruin my day.  I quickly realized there is more than 1 way to get one.

I personally enjoyed it and hopefully everyone else can find a way to enjoy it too.

[LHC20]

I'm done for today with Warframe...

The new update is nice and all... if I could play it. After being stuck in the Liset for ca. 10 repetitions of the 'transferance crashes'-scene, the doors finally opened, now I'm getting instakilled by my Helios in front of the ramp over and over again and I have to sit through every goddamn cutscene again and again...

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

I thought the golden maw was a nice puzzle, it felt great after you unlocked your "5" and could use it well.

[ZiLei]

Still scratching my head on stuff like "I don't want to do Sedona Junction" and "The War within is Hard"... It suppose to be a trial... suppose to be hard? It's not impossible? Majority of us has done and finish with it ease... Yeah I understand some complaints about the stuff after TWW, but over all it was hella fun and a positive experience... I wish things was more challenging... failure is the mother of success... 

[Flirk2]

After getting through the quest finally.

5 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Quest is easy as hell. I only died once with the arcwing part before figuring out what to do.

This quest and people complaining about it is the symtom that Warframe's original contents are so god damn easy you can just turn off your brain and finish everything, and people are too used to having their brain turned off.

1. Archwing part is easy if you can play archwing with the controls that are in the game now without throwing up. I could. Still had to revive because I clipped the beam by what I think was a tip of my archwing's wing.

2.The fights were easy if you find level 30 grineer mobile defense easy. 6 forma corrosive/heat Hek and an Oberon took care of that.

3. Getting out of the ship with a demented Helios while having 100 health and no option to roll was impossible. Alt+F4, Reload, Alt+F4, Cache Verification, Cache Optimization, Reload and a lot of jumping got me through that part.

4. Getting through the cave was impossible. Alt+F4, 3 hour break, Reload, completely removing immersion and remembering Wyrmius and Happy Zephyr got me through that.

5. Getting through the boss fight was easier then expected. But frustrating seeing as I needed to use never before used tactics. And could not heal.

 

I can understand the door bug. With more then 6 months of development... Yet, I can understand it.

What I can't understand is why did I need so much Alt+F4?

What's wrong with a ''Quit Game'' button? Why is it and anathema in Warframe? Since an inescapable tutorial I'm wondering about that and why missions ending in Alt+F4 still count as ''abandoned'' in the profile. It's not like killing the application like that is done just for lols...

 

4 hours ago, Metapoke said:

TWW a Difficult Quest ? Hell no it was easy as fck !

The only thing i can agree one, the boss fight who is quite confusing otherwise it's a free walk

Sure it's easy. Problem is, it needs some 1337 skills in Wyrmius and Happy Zephyr if it won't bug out on you. Playing normal missions did nothing to prepare me for ''Evade the Golden Maw'' thing. Even hacking consoles didn't prepare me for that.

[RockyFish]

10 hours ago, TheZerberus said:

1. No, bugs are not bad Gamedesign, they are lousy work. 2. Bad gamedesign wasn't directed to the bugs, it was directed to the bad gamedesign.

1. Have you ever done coding? If you have, then you will know that bugs are inevitable. Bugs are not a sign of lousy work, it is a sign of rushed testing. If you leave a project to the last minute major bugs are unavoidable.

2. Yes i agree this quest is poorly designed, there are too many cinematics which dilutes its meaning. This entire quest feels more like a mini-game that trains you on how to use your new "powers". I dont even know how to activate my old zenurik powers anymore after the update. I feel DE didn't do a good job at explaining how to use new stuff. Just like how i needed to google up the new mods before i knew what it did.

[Flirk2]

14 minutes ago, RockyFish said:

 I dont even know how to activate my old zenurik powers anymore after the update.

Hold the 5 for focus, tap 5 for transference, if you don't want to rebind keys. You can also still select your focus with power selection keys.

Would not know if myself if not for the forums.

[RockyFish]

Just now, Flirk2 said:

Hold the 5 for focus, tap 5 for transference, if you don't want to rebind keys. You can also still select your focus with power selection keys.

Would not know if myself if not for the forums.

thanks ... thats exactly what i mean by DE didn't explain how to use powers properly .... i might rebind focus to 6 now XD

[Vifany]

4 hours ago, Silvanous said:

number 1 its a BETA game people

It is FOREVER BETA game and final release is only for consoles. I uderstand that on pc bugfixing is much easier but they have enough time to fix some obvious faults like that door. 

 

4 hours ago, Silvanous said:

number 2 the quest came out like 6 hours ago and your all on here whining that the new quest has bugs and glitches

The quest were promised 6 months ago. And then delayed and delayed and finaly delayed again until this moment. Current state would be normal if upd were released in early or mid summer. 

11 hours ago, TheZerberus said:

had similiar experiences with the new quests?

My experience was a little bit worse.Except totaly diapointing plot I encountered pretty hard performance drops, unituitive and quiet inconvenient game mechanics, also black-and-grey fill design. Update contains everything I hate in games: unkillable oneshoting enemies, generic designs, naive plot, false choises without visible consequences.   And for utter amusement the door in last part of quest.

[Golmihr]

The were some false information with them telling us to use Void Blast to stun the worm when what they apparently meant was to teleport through it. And a few too many invisible walls pushing the character during the obstacle courses (Don't hug the ship too close even if it looks like there's room.). I think I ended up out-of-bounds and teleported back 7 times when trying to leave the Grineer asteroid in archwing mode at the end of the mission (Then I spotted a tunnel, went towards it and when I got close enough the waypoint I had been needed popped up.). So it really needed a lot more polish for the gameplay they intended.

I still enjoyed the quest and story though

 

Edit: And for crying out loud. When they change the controls then at least tell us. During the battle with the queens I was running around looking for an area with no jamming as apparently my #5 didn't work despite Teshin constantly hinting that I should use it. Turns out I wasn't tapping the key fast enough which I learned randomly during my running around.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Golmihr

[Snackm4n]

20 hours ago, Amarsir said:

It's bad design from before it even before it began.

Warframe is a game about space ninjas. Fast active combat, flipping and shooting and stabbing. It's fun and that's what brought a lot of people in.

Honestly, ask yourself first, what is a Warframe? The name itself already implies that it's a 'Frame' used for war, right? And that means, there must be someone controlling it. So this is DE's way of building up a beta game into a game that has actual storylines that make sense.

 

20 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Archwing is a different game. Figuring out secret button combos in random Lua rooms is a different game.

Well, if there's nothing else to do, people would quickly shred through the normal content, and possibly get bored quickly. Of course the Archwings need a bit of a polish, and DEFINITELY more missions, because they really don't seem that attractive as of now, at least to me.

 

20 hours ago, Amarsir said:

I don't want to search for random rooms and trial and error my way through whatever secret they thought was so awesome I needed to experience it. Maybe others find that fun, but to me it's a chore and I don't play games for chores.

No, it's called grinding ;3 Warframe is infamous for that.

Overall, Warframe is still in beta, and your post is an opinion too. But I think that DE is so far doing a damn good job on building up storylines.

[Snackm4n]

12 hours ago, AscendingDusk said:

I don't normally comment here, but I just had to express my support of your statements, because that is just exactly how I feel. It would be perfectly fine with me if those things were optional, but instead DE insists on making them mandatory in any way possible.

Case in point, even before TWW, unlocking the Sedna Junction requires completing the Orokin challenge rooms. Not only are they (in my opinion) unfun, boring and frustrating, but they are also solo hostile (some are next to impossible to do solo except from complex strategies involving specters, Loki decoys and I don't know what else). Most importantly though, they are also not in any way related to the game premise that brought me to the game itself. And by the way, the same goes about unnecessarily frustrating MR tests that also have no translation in the real game (hey, MR11 test), twitch reflex hacking consoles, and countless other examples.

I don't mind things like void parkour rooms as much because they are there only if you want to do them (even though it’s starting to seem DE want people to do them judging from the increasing push into it, but anyway, I digress). But when you make those things bonded to "main" game progression, then there is an issue, and the only explanation I can find is that for some reason DE is hellbent on having players do this stuff, while the majority simply seems to be not interested.

And if they are, which I honestly don't understand the reason for, then maybe the solution is to improve this stuff and make it fun for more people that for those for whom it already is, instead of trying to force people into (what should be) side content that they simply don’t enjoy (and that to be honest in my opinion is simply badly designed and implemented compared to other games focused on such kind of content, in contrast with core mechanics like shooting and abilities that are pretty great and what are brought me and made me love the game initially). I simply cannot understand how it is supposed to be great game design to force players into content they don't enjoy, and frankly does not even fit in the game, by using blindingly artificial and completely unnecessary means and constraints.

Every time I meat such an obstacle, because that is what it is for me, then I simply try to clear it to get back to the game I enjoy. But seeing even more of this added with an increased focus combined with one of the worst RNG systems I have encountered (but that’s a story for another time) is just starting to take a huge toll in my willingness to play the game, despite how much I love its core gameplay.

Why do I have to go through this frustration just to enjoy the core of the game? Forcing me into it does not make me like it anymore, it takes me from being indifferent about it to hating it with a passion, and by continuation starting to hate the game. What does making these things mandatory offer to the game in the end? For me personally it makes me feel that I am in the edge of burnout. I would suppose I am not alone either. I simply don’t understand what is the point of this. Unfortunately, TWW is full of this content, yet again, and these mods seem to be one of the best (or maybe worst) examples yet.

Bonus point: Let alone, I can’t even imagine how DE is going to balance them in future content. Do you balance high level missions around the idea that players will use some god tier randomly generated weapon mods (which would make the content almost impossible for players who didn’t have as good RNG even if they forced themselves through the extremely frustrating and unfun for me challenges to unlock them) or do you balance around the baseline (which would result in players with the god mods obliterating everything and then complaining the game is not “challenging enough”. Or do you just balance around data-mined stats which means whoever is no the wrong end of the average is simply kinda ***, while whoever is on the upper good end simply gets a lucky advantage, all just because RNG RNGed.

Overall, while I loved the cinematics and the story and the addition of some RPG aspects with player choice, I am very disappointed and conflicted about the gameplay decisions and the way DE seems to have chosen to follow in this regard. That is my honest opinion. Sorry for the essay if anyone actually made it through, I can't help it it seems.

I second this, but smh not Amarsir's statement.

I totally agree that DE does put some really unfun grinding into the 'main' gameplay. Honestly it would be better if grinding was to make your own 'favourite weapons' good. Basically for your own interest.

[Amarsir]

13 hours ago, ZiLei said:

Still scratching my head on stuff like "I don't want to do Sedona Junction" and "The War within is Hard"... It suppose to be a trial... suppose to be hard? It's not impossible? Majority of us has done and finish with it ease... Yeah I understand some complaints about the stuff after TWW, but over all it was hella fun and a positive experience... I wish things was more challenging... failure is the mother of success... 

Hard isn't the issue.  I mean there's a case to be made about appropriate difficulty for required content vs optional, but that's not what's at hand here. I don't mind a hard fight. Most of the content in this game is too easy and gets repeated not because it needs to be learned but because clumsy reward mechanics require grinding.

No, the problem here is that the activities they're now forcing on us are a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME. Maybe you like both. That's fine. But a lot of people don't. And the more random stuff they add, the more likely it is you'll be forced to do stuff you don't find entertaining. Even you, I doubt you're such a blind fan you'd sit there playing games of backgammon or alphabetizing lists. Or would you?

3 hours ago, Snackm4n said:

Honestly, ask yourself first, what is a Warframe? The name itself already implies that it's a 'Frame' used for war, right? And that means, there must be someone controlling it. So this is DE's way of building up a beta game into a game that has actual storylines that make sense.

They can make whatever story they want. Publish a feature-length film for all I care. Just don't make me stand on secret buttons, fly space invader style, or crawl through a cave dying 800 times because they didn't adequately explain the rules. (Or zero times. I don't want to crawl through caves at all.)

Frankly, your justification works better against you. If Frame is such a critical part, don't take my muther@(*()$ frame away and act like it's the same game.

[Sikelh]

Honestly the bugs and the lack of a progression system for the operator are my only issues with it. And I would imagine there's plans to fix both in the working. I just hope said progression isn't just more mods.

[Snackm4n]

2 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Frankly, your justification works better against you. If Frame is such a critical part, don't take my muther@(*()$ frame away and act like it's the same game.

But... But... I never said that the Frame is a critical part, all I said is that it makes sense that some1's controlling it.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to all the pc tenno for finding all the bugs for us console tenno. Your work is appreciated. Thanks DE for an amazing quest we can look forward too ?? ☕

Edited November 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[SethCypher]

1 hour ago, Sikelh said:

Honestly the bugs and the lack of a progression system for the operator are my only issues with it. And I would imagine there's plans to fix both in the working. I just hope said progression isn't just more mods.

I believe there's a tweet from Steve saying that Focus is supposed to tie into the Operator system or some such along with the Focus reworks.

[IX-44]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:10 AM, MirageKnight said:

"You scrubs need to git gud".

 

[LegioDamnus]

lol everytime I'm killed by the Golden Maw, the game just goes black and I have to close it again.

Lol.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

On 12.11.2016 at 2:14 PM, Amarsir said:

It's bad design from before it even began.

Warframe is a game about space ninjas. Fast active combat, flipping and shooting and stabbing. It's fun and that's what brought a lot of people in. And yet they keep making us do crap that isn't any of that. Archwing is a different game. Figuring out secret button combos in random Lua rooms is a different game.  Why is that crap in a space ninja game? 

The only thing I can think of is that they're so arrogant that they can't conceive of saying "no" to an idea. Like they thought of it so obviously everyone will want to do it. But then we don't want to... so they make it mandatory.

I don't want to search for random rooms and trial and error my way through whatever secret they thought was so awesome I needed to experience it. Maybe others find that fun, but to me it's a chore and I don't play games for chores. Archwing is the same way. And I know a lot of people dislike the hacker minigames, which is why ciphers are needed to skip those.

Basically DE, you made a good game. And then you keep blocking it with other games that aren't as good, and dumping people in missions with no idea what to do because it makes you feel clever. Stop it.

This folks is how you provide constructive criticism!

[MrGazza]

Bad game design indeed.

Because, the quest was boring, confusing (it still is) and not challenging at all. (Struggle is not challenge IMHO)  

- Too much walking (injured), then running, jumping, without action. The enemies are easily avoidable... well they were just on the map, bullet jump = bypass done. Adding no or barely any challenge or content to a long awaited update/mission is a fail and very bad game design. 

- Cloudy or missing guides on new skills, and skill combos (trans-whatevering into the orokin worms and then the kuva guardians. Especially the latter, I found annoying that Teshin was shouting in the background that you should do something with your new power... "eh, thanks mate, I'm struggling here to kill the unkillables, so if you know something then say that, otherwise STFU." I could figure out myself that I have to do something, no need keep stating the obvious in every 30 seconds, that doesn't help but annoying) Leaving the players in the dark, expecting them to figure out the untold. Forgetting that this game is a fast action ninja massacre and not a guessing game, is a bad game design.

- Using button 5 which has been assigned for the special. (Did the game give any hints that now there's a short press and press and hold? I must have missed it... that's definitely bad game design. And anyway why the 5? What's wrong with keys like 6, 7, 8, etc?! ) Messing up the original controls without any good reason, that's a very bad game design.

- The operator stealth + jump combo doesn't work well. If you bash them too fast or the same time, the operator won't do it, just awkwardly jumps up and potentially just gets a hit from somewhere and dies... well, returns to the warframe. (try again... oh no, no energy, no jumpy-bumpy, kuva cloud gone, yaay!!!)
Implement a lousy solution for a key action, that's bad game design.

- The operator virtually has no hp/armor/shield = defense. Why the hell would anyone get out from a pimp-modded WARframe??? Why would anyone mess around in a freakin jumpsuit to get some kuva? Operator = lvl1, npcs = lvl30+ How does that makes any sense? Forcing a total different game/play style on the player community, that's bad game design.

- I made my choices through the quest three times, and made no difference three times. The mission gave no reason why and what the choices, and  will/would/could be the consequences. I didn't know what those icons symbolise, nor that they have any meaning? It makes no sense giving choices if it has no influence at all... especially the last choice. (Ok, I drank all of it... that Teshin guy talked to me like Morpheus... aaaand?! What now? Am I going to be rich or what?) Releasing an unfinished/non-existing/unimplemented feature, that's bad game design. 

- after I finished the quest, it left me with a strange feeling. You know the one: WHAT THE F WAS THAT?!
Who were these characters? You know the one in the d.i.c.k-costume (have look at the new loading screen to the left of the operator) or the little button eyed freak. And who the h is this Teshin guy who constantly calling me child or kiddo? I was expecting a SW scene when he would tell me "khmm... kiddo, I am you father". What role they are playing in this constant-farming game? They just forced in a little piece of the lore... wait is this a role playing game at all?! Hmm.. nope. Forgetting what type of game they create, that's bad game design. 

- after quest, kuva farming issues, many of the players have no clue how that should be done, and frankly that's not their fault that no adequate info tutorial or anything was given to a brand new aspect of the game. And that should be part of the game design.

What is the purpose of this quest? Increasing the frequency of confused players' visits on warframe wiki? Than it's a huge success.
If the purpose was to introduce a new aspect of the game, well, then I don't even have to say. 

And after all, this is my subjective opinion about the War Within quest/update. If you enjoyed it I am happy for you. If you enjoy the kuva farming, I am just as much happy for that. Don't bother trolling, nothing will change my experience nor my opinion of this topic. It's past. If you feel/think different that's superb. I'll try to enjoy the game without it, and will wait to get the mess fixed. Or not.
 

Edited November 27, 2016 by MrGazza

[Naqel]

Everything related to the Operators is bad: bad design, bad writing, bad shoving them down people's throats even though nobody likes them. Everything.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Naqel