Saryn Needs To Be Reworked, Again.

[Gelkor]

10 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

It was more or less poking fun at the person directly above me, not at  the people showing what's passable.

Also, in some testing, since the year when that post was made it looks like some of these issues may have been resolved. One shotting enemies with spore on them seems to be yeilding me energy. (Found it, Hotfix 17.10.2) As well it seems to proc the toxin on melee one-shots, looking like it is registering melee one shots as popping spores before they register killing the target. No notes on that, just observed behavior in simalacrum.

Not sure about the rest of the issues though, don't really have the patience to test and see if any of the stacking been addressed in the last year, I just know I kill things just fine in Sorties and endless, and usually end up 60-80%. I may not be having issues with Toxin stacking because I only apply toxin via Toxic Lash on a melee weapon, so it's a consistent amount every time.

[ThatOddDeer]

4 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Also, in some testing, since the year when that post was made it looks like some of these issues may have been resolved. One shotting enemies with spore on them seems to be yeilding me energy. (Found it, Hotfix 17.10.2) As well it seems to proc the toxin on melee one-shots, looking like it is registering melee one shots as popping spores before they register killing the target. No notes on that, just observed behavior in simalacrum.

Not sure about the rest of the issues though, don't really have the patience to test and see if any of the stacking been addressed in the last year, I just know I kill things just fine in Sorties and endless, and usually end up 60-80%. I may not be having issues with Toxin stacking because I only apply toxin via Toxic Lash on a melee weapon, so it's a consistent amount every time.

I still reliably get the toxic lash not spreading issue, and as I use Blind justice,  i reliably one shot enemies with toxic lash and its infuriating knowing much damage i'm losing. I will give you the energy thing but it's one small fix among many. 

As for the other issues, 100% still exist and are preventing me from fully enjoying the frame i play almost exclusively (it feels good being adept enough for your frame to not matter 95% of the time)

I pray for her to get re-visited since they did they in devstream 62 that they were still monitoring her performance. Seems nothing so far.

 

[Gelkor]

8 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

As for the other issues, 100% still exist and are preventing me from fully enjoying the frame i play almost exclusively (it feels good being adept enough for your frame to not matter 95% of the time)

Heh, I suppose I will caveat that practically any time anyone says any frame is a dog turd and squishy, it's a frame that I can reliably perform well on and have no survivability problems.

So, Idunno, it either means things are balanced, or I at least have the mods, weapons, and reflexes to brute force my way through any of the content we have. 

*shrug*

Except Limbo. 

I won't even try to figure out how to play him.

F*** Limbo. 

*proceeds to start researching Limbo*

Edited November 25, 2016 by Gelkor

[ComfyOlivia]

4 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I still reliably get the toxic lash not spreading issue, and as I use Blind justice,  i reliably one shot enemies with toxic lash and its infuriating knowing much damage i'm losing. I will give you the energy thing but it's one small fix among many. 

As for the other issues, 100% still exist and are preventing me from fully enjoying the frame i play almost exclusively (it feels good being adept enough for your frame to not matter 95% of the time)

I pray for her to get re-visited since they did they in devstream 62 that they were still monitoring her performance. Seems nothing so far.

 

I'd love for her to get looked at and made more synergetic and well rounded. The only problem is how DE operates. If they went in and changed things to be more efficient and more up to what she is described as being able to do, DE would nerf her anyway. Then all we'd be able to say is she matches what she's being advertised as. 

[ThatOddDeer]

4 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

I'd love for her to get looked at and made more synergetic and well rounded. The only problem is how DE operates. If they went in and changed things to be more efficient and more up to what she is described as being able to do, DE would nerf her anyway. Then all we'd be able to say is she matches what she's being advertised as. 

If she worked as advertised, she'd have scaling with how many enemies there are and how well you can stack toxin.

She'd do buckets of damage, ala Mag's new magnetize, but at least she'd work rather than being a frame where i have to just brute force my way through things. 

I know i could do my won job better by picking oberon and using his 1's augment to give every one radiation damage and way more eHp reduction to enemies than saryn can provide; viral is effectively 2x damage and so is smite infusion however infusion also scales with power strength.

[ThatOddDeer]

6 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Heh, I suppose I will caveat that practically any time anyone says any frame is a dog turd and squishy, it's a frame that I can reliably perform well on and have no survivability problems.

So, Idunno, it either means things are balanced, or I at least have the mods, weapons, and reflexes to brute force my way through any of the content we have. 

*shrug*

Except Limbo. 

I won't even try to figure out how to play him.

F*** Limbo. 

*proceeds to start researching Limbo*

I think we're both in the same boat of just brute forcing things, as saryn is at least innately durable enough to do that, and in my case I just shadowstep to make up for my frame's horrid eHP scaling in endgame endless.

[Gelkor]

11 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I think we're both in the same boat of just brute forcing things, as saryn is at least innately durable enough to do that, and in my case I just shadowstep to make up for my frame's horrid eHP scaling in endgame endless.

I just punch things before they hit me.

#Maduraiway

I will say I was kinda surprised on one of the sorties the other day, it was the shotgun only interception sortie, built my Tainted Shell Boar Prime to be a gas machine and proceeded to to do 80% dps/kills with just that and spore. Whole team of well geared MR 22's too, really pissed off the Ash player. I don't even know how it worked, like I said, I usually go melee on Saryn.  I think it might have been the tighter spread on the tainted shell though, I was going for individual spore pops instead of all at once.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Gelkor

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

I just punch things before they hit me. YOLO

#Maduraiway

I will say I was kinda surprised on one of the sorties the other day, it was the shotgun only interception sortie, built my Tainted Shell Boar to be a gas machine and proceeded to to do 80% dps with just that and spore. Whole team of well geared MR 22's too, really pissed off the Ash player. I don't even know how it worked, like I said, I usually go melee on Saryn.  I think it might have been the tighter spread on the tainted shell though, I was going for individual spore pops instead of all at once.

There's also the fact that the game doesnt' count overkill damage, I usually overkill things with damage, so that means modding for things that do lots of small instances of damage over a wide area, such as spore and gas, means your EPEEN meter will be very high but y our actual usefulness will be much lower because you're not actually ending enemies' lives. I use enemies killed as a metric of contribution as its far easier to get damage done than kills.

[Gelkor]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

There's also the fact that the game doesnt' count overkill damage, I usually overkill things with damage, so that means modding for things that do lots of small instances of damage over a wide area, such as spore and gas, means your EPEEN meter will be very high but y our actual usefulness will be much lower because you're not actually ending enemies' lives. I use enemies killed as a metric of contribution as its far easier to get damage done than kills.

True, I did have top kills by quite a margin too. Usually I run bows and heavy melee, I just had to run the shotgun due to the sortie requirement. Hek, I use bows so much my number of hits landed on my profile is 1/3 that of one of my clan-mates who's been playing for a year, despite having about 10 times the kills. I don't care if it's overkill, headshot crits are satisfying. 

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

True, I did have top kills by quite a margin too. Usually I run bows and heavy melee, I just had to run the shotgun due to the sortie requirement. Hek, I use bows so much my number of hits landed on my profile is 1/3 that of one of my clan-mates who's been playing for a year, despite having about 10 times the kills. I don't care if it's overkill, headshot crits are satisfying. 

If only saryn herself was satisfying to play as instead of just for her assets.

[Gelkor]

2 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

If only saryn herself was satisfying to play as instead of just for her assets.

*shrug* She's fun to me but I don't play her all the time, I play a lot of frames to suit my moods at the time, or the mission, and/or my team-comp. 

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

*shrug* She's fun to me but I don't play her all the time, I play a lot of frames to suit my moods at the time, or the mission, and/or my team-comp. 

I'm a type A personality, I love to give a S#&$ about how useful i am, I can never justify bringing saryn other than "I can brute force my way through this, so i can take her even if she's outclassed by oberon" 

Until I can justify bringing her for her merits alone, I will say that she needs further work

 

[StinkyPygmy]

Wait what? She's one of the tankiest frames in the game, especially with regen molt. Please leave my baby alone. She does insane amounts of damage with just spore alone at high levels. I think you need to tak a look at your play style and mod set up OP cause I have no idea how your having difficulty with her.

[Gelkor]

10 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I'm a type A personality, I love to give a S#&$ about how useful i am, I can never justify bringing saryn other than "I can brute force my way through this, so i can take her even if she's outclassed by oberon" 

Until I can justify bringing her for her merits alone, I will say that she needs further work

 

Oberon's Buff still works when you keep up viral, and when Rhino has Roar up, and when Nova has M. Primed. It's not always an either or. 

Also why just Oberon, there's and augment like that for Ember, Frost, Volt, and Saryn too. Then again, all those augments only work on weapons and a few abilities. Rhino's buff works on everything, so you should use that instead of Oberon. But by that token if you want some reliable CC and to double team damage you should use Nova. You can go up the chain all the way to justify for or against taking a frame for the team.

IMO Viral Procs alone is enough of a justification for Saryn in a team, combined with above average durability to not be a liability to the team. Idunno, I weigh my mood and my team comp. If we already have a nova and a rhino, bringing Saryn could be icing on the cake. I could take my Buffberon but I actually don't like playing him as much due to poor range, he's only good for buffing and an unbeleivably pimptacular Phoenix Renewal due to his Strength and Duration.  It also depends on the mission, if we are roving and exterminate or something, Spore is pretty good. If we have to hunker down, I may bring my Bunker-Buffer volt and keep allies shock-troopered and behind long lasting shields. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Gelkor

[Xekrin]

3 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Can you PLEASE take a second look at her rework finally?

The worst part about her rework is she needs immense range to do any real damage.  Beyond that, with a major range increase she does great dps.

[ComfyOlivia]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I'm a type A personality, I love to give a S#&$ about how useful i am, I can never justify bringing saryn other than "I can brute force my way through this, so i can take her even if she's outclassed by oberon" 

Until I can justify bringing her for her merits alone, I will say that she needs further work

 

To each their own, I guess, but all I've ever had a problem with on her is energy efficiency, which means almost nothing with a good squad.

Otherwise, I've personally never even sensed the brute force thing you're speaking of. She takes more work than others, but even through all of the other frames I've made crazy build for, nothing outputs as much damage and kills as Saryn does. I'm in a clan where the player to hour ratio is like a 1 to 1100, and I out DPS and Kill just about any other frame/build I've faced. The only Frame that managed to beat me out on a level playing field on multiple occasions was an Ash.

I guess it just really depends on whether or not you have good squadmates. My friends and I all compliment each other. A trin for heals, a Saryn for the AOE DPS/Enemy Debuffs, a Nova for Extra damage to the enemy, and the fourth depends on the mission type. Nekros for Survival, and Frost for Defense. Literally never had to compensate for bad mechanics.

I just press 2, cast 1 on the 2, shoot it a bit to spread the spores, and press 4 when there's people getting too close.

 

If we're just aiming for peak efficiency, I'm not sure how you play Warframe without going insane. There's literally nothing in the game that does exactly what it should.

 

Also, what do you mean she's outclassed by Oberon? I saw your earlier explanation, but that didn't explain how he outclasses her. It just showed that there's another possible route that's honestly more limited than a Spore build. 

[ThatOddDeer]

6 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Oberon's Buff still works when you keep up viral, and when Rhino has Roar up, and when Nova has M. Primed. It's not always an either or. 

Also why just Oberon, there's and augment like that for Ember, Frost, Volt, and Saryn too. Then again, all those augments only work on weapons and a few abilities. Rhino's buff works on everything, so you should use that instead of Oberon. But by that token if you want some reliable CC and to double team damage you should use Nova. You can go up the chain all the way to justify for or against taking a frame for the team.

IMO Viral Procs alone is enough of a justification for Saryn in a team, combined with above average durability to not be a liability to the team. Idunno, I weigh my mood and my team comp. If we already have a nova and a rhino, bringing Saryn could be icing on the cake. I could take my Buffberon but I actually don't like playing him as much due to poor range, he's only good for buffing and an unbeleivably pimptacular Phoenix Renewal due to his Strength and Duration.  It also depends on the mission, if we are roving and exterminate or something, Spore is pretty good. If we have to hunker down, I may bring my Bunker-Buffer volt and keep allies shock-troopered and behind long lasting shields. 

It's about opportunity cost, why take a saryn when i could take a bufferon, which adds radiation(which has better damage increases on health types than toxin and has a better status proc and most of your damage comes from weapons anyways so?)  when you can mod for pure viral on your weapons; which you always should be and thus inflicting viral proc is pointless. And in terms of a better choice, you can take a banshee, or the secret OP buffer ember which can provide a flat 40x damage buff to her entire team that banshee needs 3 overlayed fuil power strength sonars to acheive. There is never a time when saryn is the best choice when ember can do her job, when oberon can do her job and banshee can do her job better while also offering more to the team than she could ever hope to do.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I've always never understood Saryn either. When it comes to killing, Mirage, Ash, Mesa, Ember just do it better.

However, if you want an end game build I'd recommend an efficiency build that allows you to spam miasma when you need it to stun enemies. Spam some spores and use the pox with corrosive/blast and an ammo mutation. No enemy can survive.

[Gelkor]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

There is never a time when saryn is the best choice when ember can do her job, when oberon can do her job and banshee can do her job better while also offering more to the team than she could ever hope to do.

Well, there's meta farms, but the less said of that the better.

I'm just saying that most of the game isn't so tightly tuned that the degree of increase you bring from other frames is enough to make the difference between life and death.  Unless you only have fun at being the best support/dps/trombone player/whatever, bring what you want and your skills to the table and it's fine, IMO.

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

To each their own, I guess, but all I've ever had a problem with on her is energy efficiency, which means almost nothing with a good squad.

Otherwise, I've personally never even sensed the brute force thing you're speaking of. She takes more work than others, but even through all of the other frames I've made crazy build for, nothing outputs as much damage and kills as Saryn does. I'm in a clan where the player to hour ratio is like a 1 to 1100, and I out DPS and Kill just about any other frame/build I've faced. The only Frame that managed to beat me out on a level playing field on multiple occasions was an Ash.

I guess it just really depends on whether or not you have good squadmates. My friends and I all compliment each other. A trin for heals, a Saryn for the AOE DPS/Enemy Debuffs, a Nova for Extra damage to the enemy, and the fourth depends on the mission type. Nekros for Survival, and Frost for Defense. Literally never had to compensate for bad mechanics.

I just press 2, cast 1 on the 2, shoot it a bit to spread the spores, and press 4 when there's people getting too close.

 

If we're just aiming for peak efficiency, I'm not sure how you play Warframe without going insane. There's literally nothing in the game that does exactly what it should.

 

Also, what do you mean she's outclassed by Oberon? I saw your earlier explanation, but that didn't explain how he outclasses her. It just showed that there's another possible route that's honestly more limited than a Spore build. 

By brute force we meant overcoming saryn's uselessness by bringing way better mods/weapons/pets/focus to make up for her glaring weaknesses.

 

As to what i mean about oberon is that his augment can be modded for over 300% bonus damage to all your weapons as pure radiation, which is the second best damage type for all factions, except pure infested; and this is comparing saryn with 1 augment, as her rework was balanced over always having Regen molt, to oberon with 1 augment.

[ThatOddDeer]

3 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Well, there's meta farms, but the less said of that the better.

I'm just saying that most of the game isn't so tightly tuned that the degree of increase you bring from other frames is enough to make the difference between life and death.  Unless you only have fun at being the best support/dps/trombone player/whatever, bring what you want and your skills to the table and it's fine, IMO.

It's a matter of personality differences is all. And for those that care strongly about helping their teammates, you can't justify saryn even with off meta builds like buffer ember.

Lots of people love being the best they can be, but when their favorite frame is just utter dog tier it can cause cognitive dissonance which can lead to stress and unhappiness.

[Gelkor]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

It's a matter of personality differences is all. And for those that care strongly about helping their teammates, you can't justify saryn even with off meta builds like buffer ember.

Lots of people love being the best they can be, but when their favorite frame is just utter dog tier it can cause cognitive dissonance which can lead to stress and unhappiness.

I guess I don't consider "not being the best" = "dog tier."

Then again, I also play solo a lot and when I do group, I don't feel the need to justify anything I do to the group that I usually carry anyways, no matter the frame.  

But I may just be dead inside after my favorite frame from when I started 3 years ago is universally reviled as the "noob frame" despite bringing the strongest universal damage buff and reliable CC and durability.

[ComfyOlivia]

25 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

I'm just saying that most of the game isn't so tightly tuned that the degree of increase you bring from other frames is enough to make the difference between life and death.  Unless you only have fun at being the best support/dps/trombone player/whatever, bring what you want and your skills to the table and it's fine, IMO.

Exactly how I feel. A perfect comp doesn't mean much anyway without the people behind it knowing what they're doing. Potential is different from actually being capable.

 

24 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

By brute force we meant overcoming saryn's uselessness by bringing way better mods/weapons/pets/focus to make up for her glaring weaknesses.

 

As to what i mean about oberon is that his augment can be modded for over 300% bonus damage to all your weapons as pure radiation, which is the second best damage type for all factions, except pure infested; and this is comparing saryn with 1 augment, as her rework was balanced over always having Regen molt, to oberon with 1 augment.

"By brute force we meant overcoming saryn's uselessness by bringing way better mods/weapons/pets/focus to make up for her glaring weaknesses."

I'm going to be honest, I feel like you're over exaggerating. Her damage output is higher than most of the frames in the game simply for the fact that she can consistently proc an entire map without much effort. Add in the fact that you are also halfing the proc'ed enemies eHP, plus the extra damage with Miasma, and you are looking at amazing numbers. Add in Squad Members who know what they're doing, and you can easily lock down a room.

Furthermore, I still don't understand. I have brought plenty of trash weapons/builds/loadouts with my Saryn and still got done what I needed to. Yea, she has some holes, but if DE were to fill them up, they'd just do a general nerf on her. You can't have a perfect frame. That's unbalanced.

 

"As to what i mean about oberon is that his augment can be modded for over 300% bonus damage to all your weapons as pure radiation, which is the second best damage type for all factions, except pure infested; and this is comparing saryn with 1 augment, as her rework was balanced over always having Regen molt, to oberon with 1 augment."

You're neglecting the fact that a good squad negates the need for Regen molt. 

A 300% bonus damage to weps is cool and all, but is not nearly as encompassing as a full map coverage of halved eHP. You're limited to what you can shoot. Unfortunately for that idea, this is a horde shooter. The scaling of the viral proc is limited to how high the enemy can rise in eHP, which is currently limitless, as far as we know. A weapon's damage on the other hand, is completely limited to how much you can mod it. CC and AOE is all important in anything late game. To compensate for the limited AOE the average weapon would do, you'd have to go for more powerful weapons, which turns this into a situation of needing meta weapons, which is one of the reasons you're citing as Saryn having uselessness.

 

19 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

It's a matter of personality differences is all. And for those that care strongly about helping their teammates, you can't justify saryn even with off meta builds like buffer ember.

Lots of people love being the best they can be, but when their favorite frame is just utter dog tier it can cause cognitive dissonance which can lead to stress and unhappiness.

It's honestly more a matter of opinion than anything.

Anything less than perfect isn't trash. It's just not inherently unbalanced.

Edited November 25, 2016 by CoRRh

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, Gelkor said:

I guess I don't consider "not being the best" = "dog tier."

Then again, I also play solo a lot and when I do group, I don't feel the need to justify anything I do to the group that I usually carry anyways, no matter the frame.  

But I may just be dead inside after my favorite frame from when I started 3 years ago is universally reviled as the "noob frame" despite bringing the strongest universal damage buff and reliable CC and durability.

Sorry to hear that buddy, but that doesn't mean saryn doesn't need work when she's worse than oberon; a frame constantly in demand of a rework.

As for best universal damage buff, I'd say it's the best as long as they're no fire immunity going around as buffember's ability to increase damage by 40x to all enemies is no joke.

But Rhino is definitely a king of all spades instead of a jack and far from a noob frame, he has both a high skill ceiling and a low skill floor.

[ThatOddDeer]

3 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

 

 

A 300% bonus damage to weps is cool and all, but is not nearly as encompassing as a full map coverage of halved eHP. You're limited to what you can shoot. Unfortunately for that idea, this is a horde shooter. The scaling of the viral proc is limited to how high the enemy can rise in eHP, which is currently limitless, as far as we know. A weapon's damage on the other hand, is completely limited to how much you can mod it. CC and AOE is all important in anything late game. To compensate for the limited AOE the average weapon would do, you'd have to go for more powerful weapons, which turns this into a situation of needing meta weapons, which is one of the reasons you're citing as Saryn having uselessness.

 

Ima stop you right there as it's aparent you're not 100% right on how bonus damage works. 

Dealing 100% more damage, which base oberon augment  does, is the same as viral proc, halved eHP.

Dealing 300% more damage is the same as cutting an enemy's hp by 75% and it goes above that because you can mod a weapon for viral and make a saryn's spore completely redudant. 

 

Also when it comes to regenerative molt. If that augment didn't exist i would never have a reason to ever press 2. That's not balanced at all.