Saryn Needs To Be Reworked, Again.

[erny0507]

I agree with you, the mold is nothing on high level, the cc for miasma is bad (4 sec for 100 energy) she has 0 surviabily for her own.

[Foefaller]

 

I play a Saryn Prime with maximized Range, Max Blind Rage and Intensify, Prime Continuity and no efficiency mods (That's right, I pay 55% more energy for everything I do) and I rock.

Someone last page mentioned that unlike most frames, Saryn scales inversely, becoming better as enemies get tougher, and I find that to be 100% true. I've played endless missions with Equinoxs, Ashs, Novas, Mirages, Embers vs. Infested, and most of the time it always goes the same way; Sure I start behind on kills and damage with those "meta" frames, but as it goes on, when enemies become too tough and/or numerous to be killed off before the spores start going, I start to take the lead, usually between the 3rd and 4th rotations. If you're measuring your success compared to those frames after just the first or second rotation, yeah she's going to look (and feel) like she's struggling, or just getting into a grove right before the plug is pulled. After that? You're the damage MVP.

Only thing I can't beat or match on the long haul is a Banshee that has a friendly Trinity or who's willing to dump the pizzas to keep Sound Quake up as much as possible, and I feel like that has as much to do with everything getting stun-locked in their spawn rooms as the incredible damage it does; Can't spread a proper plague if noone comes out to mingle. I also try to avoid Grineer sorties with her unless I can get a group that's at least 3/4 CP, because of the brick wall that is ridiculous armor scaling. Toxin and viral might not be weak to armor (in fact I think toxin has bonus damage vs. ferrite), but it doesn't bypass it entirely like slash procs and finisher damage either.

As for Molt, while I do have Regenerative Molt, I find I use it less for health/decoy and more as a platform to start spread spores. Especially in the first couple of waves, it can be hard to get things going by trying to tag an enemy with spores and popping them (especially if there's one of the frames I've mentioned on the team)

Toxic lash I try to remember to use if I'm going to get somewhere hairy, since it will boost the damage reduction for blocking up to it's 90% reduction cap for nearly any melee weapon I use. Yes, toxic Lash has a defensive component, it's not just for popping spores w/ toxic damage for energy.

Miasma is the weak link, but I also feel like it gets a bad rap as being "only" a 100 (or 155 in my case) energy 4 sec stun. On top of the corrosive proc and the bonus damage to those affected by viral and toxin, it's also popping every single spore in range all at once. Depending on how many toxin procs you've built up before hitting Miasma, that can be an incredible amount of damage on it's own. That being said, there are several frames and weapons that could accomplish the same thing with less energy, so it doesn't really offset the otherwise poor quality of it. Think it should have some kind of energy refund/cost reduction for popping spore like Toxic Lash does.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Foefaller
Grammar

[Skaleek]

Yeah I just use spores now (with the occasional molt and toxic lash), Saryn's 4 got turned into garbage when they reworked her.

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, Foefaller said:

-snip-

Just FYI. Miasma only procs on the killing tick to trigger the corrosive death animation. It's dumb.

[Wolfglaive]

7 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Molt also removes all the Status you're being affected by. That cannot be considered useless.

Yes, I'm nearly sure Loki can facetank bombard as well if you put 8 defensive mods on him.

Here's the thing. If people want to complain about how squishy Saryn is, 2 defensive mods (Vitality and Quick Thinking) on her is hardly unreasonable. In addition, Rage is not defensive, it is an energy source, and Lifestrike is a melee mod. And yes, it's correct that using that combination does allow many frames to be more durable, what exactly is your point? The lack of durability people report isn't a problem inherent with their frame, it's a problem inherent with their modding (if they expect to take enough damage to have to worry about it, they should mod accordingly). Take your snark elsewhere.

[Dimzor]

21 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

As a solo Saryn, I can't do anything without dying. My abilities cost TOO much energy, you are required to press all her abilities consecutively to even get a minuscule payoff. Her health and armor is laughable as she can be one shot by almost anything. She is still slow and cumbersome. Her Molt works SOMETIMES as a distraction and the only redeeming factor about her is Viral, which again takes up almost your entire energy pool to get off once.

Can you PLEASE take a second look at her rework finally?

The only time I see Saryns is in relays to look good or in Defense missions hiding in an enemy spawn spamming all her abilities in the corner with max range most likely using a Simulor. She isn't fun. She can't survive half as good as even some of the trashier frames, not to mention to even have a slim chance of survival you are REQUIRED to have Regenerative Molt, Energy Restores, and Naramon:Shadow Step. She has too many prerequisites to her payoffs and only fits one style of play: Viral Debuffer & Trinity Lover.

She is still by far the worst rework done so far.

 

At least, can someone give me a good end-game Solo build for her? Nothing I mod onto her works.

I will never stop my crusade against her rework. Pressing 4 to win is bad, but Pressing 2-1-3-4 in the exact order EVERY TIME is worse and more importantly not fun. Please for the love of Lotus redo her rework.

As I am sure many others will reply to you and suggest builds and such. Please don't say Saryn needs rework.. Saryn prime has high armor, high energy, her abilities are all awesome and she is like one of the most OP warframes atm.. There are other warframes that are begging to get reworked and seriously need it!

[DEATHLOK]

22 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

She is still by far the worst rework done so far.

Wait until you've seen what they just did to Ash.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Saryn has a disgusting learning curve....

At least for me it was that way. The whole time i was playing her, i hated it, until it just sort of started feeling normal.

She is a horrible solo frame. You have to put in work to survive, i dont take her to corpus just because corpus, but grineer and infested always one shot me after 40-50 minutes solo, with no warning. I near have to break my fingers flipping her all over the place to not get hit. She has no means of defending herself other than miasma after that much time because molt doesnt mean anything anymore. Not as a way to spread spores. Not as a way to distract enemies. It might save you from q bombard missile, but odds are the splash damage will still destroy you. She is squishy.

[ThatOddDeer]

5 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

Wait until you've seen what they just did to Ash.

I feel for all Ash Mains. 

My condolences to you all

[RealPandemonium]

19 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I feel for all Ash Mains. 

My condolences to you all

My poor afk-cutscene got removed, boo-hoo.

[ThatOddDeer]

7 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

My poor afk-cutscene got removed, boo-hoo.

I'm fine with it being more interactive, that was a necessary change.

However, it's power and damage per energy spent is so abyssmal now and the rest of his abilities are so lack-luster (3 is okay but is outclassed by a large amount of abilties) that his kit as a whole is massively undertuned.

 

At least saryn has a few passable half-abilties and can cheese low level enemies, ash really has nothing outside smoke shadow, which is a cutrate stealth arrow.

Edited November 26, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[RealPandemonium]

45 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I'm fine with it being more interactive, that was a necessary change.

However, it's power and damage per energy spent is so abyssmal now and the rest of his abilities are so lack-luster (3 is okay but is outclassed by a large amount of abilties) that his kit as a whole is massively undertuned.

 

At least saryn has a few passable half-abilties and can cheese low level enemies, ash really has nothing outside smoke shadow, which is a cutrate stealth arrow.

BS isn't one of the most powerful abilities in the game?  I'd say the cost nerf is warranted (also keep in mind that the cost is reduced against small groups.)  His other abilities have only been buffed, as well.  

Edited November 26, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

BS isn't one of the most powerful abilities in the game?  I'd say the cost nerf is warranted (also keep in mind that the cost is reduced against small groups.)  His other abilities have only been buffed, as well.  

Bladestorm in it's current state is an energy hog more than miasma is and that's saying something.

The smokescreen changes just make it look like a worse version of invisibility, still a welcomed buff.

Teleport's changes are good and makes it his best ability.

The rework is a step in the right direction but still needs more work, just like saryn.

[Issxi]

At least Saryn isn't alone in the trash bin.

 

Do you guys think they'll ever fix Molt's scaling, add Regen. Molt as part of the base ability, or fix the broken synergy between her abilities? :(

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, Xylyssa said:

At least Saryn isn't alone in the trash bin.

 

Do you guys think they'll ever fix Molt's scaling, add Regen. Molt as part of the base ability, or fix the broken synergy between her abilities? :(

I maintain that hope. Otherwise i'd probably just vendor my saryn knowing if they'd never touch her.

[Issxi]

I remember when they said they would change her and adjust her based on feedback but almost ignored all feedback regarding her rework unless it was a graphical bug.

[Goodrich]

Because I can't be bothered to read every comment; here's the build I run for solo-sorties and other nonsense (Nightmares, including no-shield)
Works rather fine for me.

[tnccs215]

8 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

However, it's power and damage per energy spent is so abyssmal now and the rest of his abilities are so lack-luster (3 is okay but is outclassed by a large amount of abilties) that his kit as a whole is massively undertuned.

That is quite simply untrue.

It deals a total of 6900 base finisher damage per mark (base damage + bleed proc), affected by the combo counter. In two uses, it can easily destroy six level 135 corrupted heavy gunners.

If you find 15 base energy per 6900 raw damage (not counting mods) is a bad balance, than you've simply taken efficiency freakism to the next level

[tnccs215]

6 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

I remember when they said they would change her and adjust her based on feedback but almost ignored all feedback regarding her rework unless it was a graphical bug.

I honestly think that that would be a valid point if it wasn't you --- who obviously don't know how to use her and are piggybacking the only person that agrees that she is in a terrible state in order not to face the fact that you are ignorant of how to player --- who were saying it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by tnccs215

[Misgenesis]

Breaking news (not). A frames ultimate is _____ so the whole frame must be useless.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hi all, just going to jump in here, don't mind me, I've read the thread and I'm not going to argue anything except one specific point here:

On 25/11/2016 at 1:37 AM, ThatOddDeer said:

Miasma is an energy hog that does less damage per energy with a full combo than a reckoning with equal power strength.

Hey there. So I was curious about this, and... I believe you're wrong. I ran the numbers and for the same power strength, no, Miasma does more, because the damage is DoT and the tick damage is lower, but with any kind of duration Miasma out-does Reckoning.

Now, please, I'm not looking to stick my oar in any further than this one, specific comment, and I'll go. Here's my explanation;

Reckoning, with a maximum strength (killing your efficiency to -55%, like the Saryn build from earlier that somebody mentioned) Reckoning does a just over 3700 damage, 50% Impact, 50% Radiation. On many enemies, this isn't much, as the only things that take extra damage from Impact are Shields and Machinery, and Radiation despite Radiation's bonus to Sinew, Robotic and Alloy. Duration does nothing to the damage, only to the length of the blind effects.

Miasma, on the other hand, can be maxed with Strength, and have Duration returned to negate the reduced duration (actually, it's really easy to do, I can build her for maxed strength and still get +22.5%, but we'll say neutral for now), so that she gets her base 4 ticks of Corrosive. At max strength that's a total of over 4260 damage, all in corrosive, which is neutral against everything but Ferrite and Fossilised, which is has huge bonuses against, and weakness against Proto Shield, which only a few units use. If I include the boost from duration, which if I went for neutral Range, I could get a total of +50.5 duration, I can get a total damage over 5770 corrosive. This also extends the stagger time to 4.5 seconds.)

Base damage and effective damage from Miasma is more than Reckoning, even at neutral duration.

In point of fact, if you look at the other abilities in the same class, very few abilities that are 'press button, animation, full damage applied immediately and through procs' (for example Avalanche, Crush, Radial Javelin, Fire Blast, Stomp and so on) actually come close to this. Avalanche is the closest, dealing around 4k cold in the first instance and then around 1k blast in the second part, with a freeze and an armour reduction. The surprising front-runner is actually Tentacle Swarm with a combination of strength and duration to deal over 7k Finisher damage to enemies if they're picked up in the initial cast (finisher damage on tentacles... lewd).

And then there's the 'synergy' aspect, which I'll say, yes, is way too forced.

If you add in the gimmick of dealing +100% damage to everything with a toxin proc and an additional +100% if it also has a viral proc, the build I mentioned earlier can deal over 17k damage to its (admittedly small) radius of targets that are on half effective health from the viral proc. If you take into account that casting causes a Molt to detonate before the damage is applied, this can cause a Molt with Spores on it to instantly afflict every enemy in range with a guaranteed toxin and viral proc, meaning that all you need is to just have that thing drawing aggro, and your 4th ability can almost deal as much damage to a group of enemies as a max-strength Blade Storm attack... although BS was Finisher damage and Bleed damage, and can attack the same enemy more than once to stack the damage and bleed, so... yeah, more effective.

So... yeah, Miasma actually has the potential to do proportionately incredible amounts of damage. Just the fact that modding for it is terrible, and we should stick to Spores, Molt and Lash for overall better results ^^

But like I said, I'm just addressing the one comment, I really haven't got much of an opinion on the rest of the discussion.

If I had to fall on any side, though, I happen to think Saryn isn't in a bad place, she has the potential to be very good, and also to be very bad, she's certainly not for everyone. So the point would be that DE are more likely going to focus on the frames that have not yet been attempted, like Limbo, Zephyr and Hydroid, before they come back to Saryn and try again.

[bubbabenali]

Git gud!

 

I hope, I'm not late to the party.

[JalakBali]

I don't know if you people just solo all the time or blind but Saryn in most defense maps just get the highest kills and damage and somehow this is considered "weak"? The only problem with Saryn (like someone else already said before) is that Miasma cannot synergize better since to make it great you have to dump the other powers but to make Miasma greater you also need the other powers. It's a weird synergy.

 

I don't main Saryn but some of my clanmates do. And whenever they brought her out, she will outdamage and outkill old Bladestorm specced Ash every time. I tried playing her before and yes, it's very button press heavy. You have to keep doing things at a fast pace. She's like playing Zerg in Starcraft 2. You need high APM (action-per-minute) to be any effective, otherwise Saryn/Zerg is just plain bad. She's not a frame for beginners. But if you're not getting good results from her, it's because of you, not because of the frame.

[akira_him]

14 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

Breaking news (not). A frames ultimate is _____ so the whole frame must be useless.

A frame from 1 useful ability to have 1 useful ability after rework is a magnificent improvement! with augment it will have 1.5 useful ability in total!

[Azurein]

Saryn is not a terrible frame by any means. People who say so clearly don't know how to use her. Saryn's molt is supposed to distract and help spread spores, nothing more. Use molt to group up enemies and take them out with a weapon like hikou prime with concealed explosives and watch them drop.  I don't bother using regenerative molt, I personally think it is a waste of a mod slot because I rarely have trouble staying alive using rejuvenation alone. 

In terms of how miasma is used: STOP relying on it for damage, that is no longer it's main function. It is a panic button to help Saryn get out of sticky situations by stunning groups of enemies. It is especially useful in high level missions when such a situation does occur.

Mobility is key to Saryn's survival, which isn't difficult at all unless you're new to warframe.  You don't need to be stationary to spread spores. You can be, but I wouldn't advise it.  

Edited November 27, 2016 by Azurein