Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Literally any setup ever since you're never the only one killing.

It was about 3 times as bad back then when old BS was still around.

I thought we were discussing actual values of Ash on a solo, default stats sciency enviroment, not your average lagfest, rushing madness that is every single damn Pub.

You may as well claim now that BS is now more effective because you have a Trinity around you.

And you still haven't given a single math proof.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

34 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

And you still haven't given a single math proof.

 

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Let's see... 18 targets hits for 100 energy or 18 9 targets or 18 hits for 270/810 energy 10x9=90 / 15x9=135 energy.. 

Ye? did i not or did you just try to manipulate the numbers and ignore my reply?

90x2=180

135x2=270

just on a sidenote.

wiki

 

• Applying a mark during targeting mode will consume 15 energy. If Ash is invisible by any means (e.g. using Smoke Screen) when the mark is applied, then only 10 energy is consumed. Per mark energy costs are affected by Power Efficiency.

It actually got a bit cheaper in invisibility AND stronger due to builds, what lowers the energy/damage efficiency even further. Not to mention the still present factor of orbs.

 

And yeah, it's quite obvious that your whole point only somehow works on paper. A paper where you'd choose Ash to deal finisher damage  on enemys that are easily oneshot by ember.

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

On 14/6/2016 at 7:04 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

We decided to rework Blade Storm after almost a full year of the same themed feedback showing up. We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting. We have been increasingly committed to participatory powers (especially ultimates) and focused on emphasizing that for Blade Storm.

In 37 days it will be a full year since the revisit. Let's review it again:

Quote

Blade Storm Changes:

• Blade Storm now has a new 'Mark Enemy' mode that is activated when you hit 4. Ash enters target mode, which you can freely target enemies with your reticule up to 3 times each for attack. Once you're satisfied, press 4 again, Blade Storm begins and all targeted enemies are attacked!
• Each mark costs Energy (15) which is affected by Mods. If a marked enemy is killed by a squad mate, you will get the energy back. 
• Marks made while invisible by any source will have a cheaper base cost (10). 
• Enemies killed by Blade Storm will dissolve, leaving no corpse behind to detect!

-Cost Skyrocketed for groups larger than 6 enemies by 170% to 710% depending on number of marks. Invisibility 33% cost reduction still isn't enough to counter this, and from a cosmetic point of view it eliminates the charm of the finishers since you can't see your warframe during it.

-Since Ash attacks all targeted enemies and the average non-PrimeFury powered animations takes about once second the overall cutscene duration increased.

-Enemies killed by Blade Storm don't dissolve, it's been a bugged/inactive feature since release.

 

Math Proof (extracted from a recent conversation in another thread)

Spoiler

Previous BS: 18 targets for 100 energy. Less than 18 targets meant Ash used his remaining attacks on whoever was still standing, so you could get 5 or even 10 attacks on the same target.

Current BS: 15(45) per target, if the enemy dies (from the attack damage, not the bleed, because clones will show up regardless if the bleed would finish the target or not) you get refounded the remaining marks. Max 3 marks per target.

If you mark 18 targets like old BS, you spend 15(45) x 18 = 270 (810) energy.

Now if you mark, say, 5 enemies. 15(45) x 5 = 75 (225). Yeah, marking small groups cost the same (single mark) or twice (3 marks) as old BS did

-

Energy orbs are RNG based, so not accountable for math, and old BS also picked up orbs so it's the same thing. What's more, old bs required 4 orbs to refund it's cost, while current BS requires 11 orbs (with one mark) if you mark 18 targets.

-

The multiple hits per attack (which feed the combo counter) are smoke and mirrors really, as each assault (regardless of hits) deals a fixed damage ...and since Damage  per assault remained the same, both old BS and current BS would deal the same damage given their maximum number of targets. And assuming they are all Grineer Butchers (just to set an example) old BS would finish them far faster and for less energy.

As I said, current BS has a 50 enemy cap. Old BS had a 18. So let's go with 50 enemies for both.

Old BS would require 3 casts to kill everyone, which amounts to 300 energy. And since the 18 attacks are split between Ash and his clones you would watch 6 finishers per cast. Give each finisher 1s duration and you get 6x3=18 seconds of cutscene.

Now let's do the same to current BS.

Cost: 15(45) x 50 = 750 (2250)

Since Ash attacks everyone and each finisher would last 1 second you get 50 seconds of cutscene.

Oh, in the above example the 3 marks cost between () is just for reference, in the scenario both old and new would instantly kill their targets.

Conclave BS current mechanics (let's play a game of Spot the issues!)

Spoiler

Well, I will give you the details of Blade Storm in Conclave so you can get and idea what we are dealing with:

-Requires 100 energy to activate.

-Deals 150 Finisher damage (doesn't ignore shields) (average frame has near 280ehp, and AoE ultimates can deal around 250 damage if they don't straight up instagib you)

-Mark costs 25 per target and cannot multimark (that means you are limited to 4 targets)

-If target dies by something that isn't you, you don't get energy refunded.

-You cannot parkour, jump or sprint while marking mode is active (your marked targets don't experiment any of this)

-If you die while you have at least 1 mark active you lose all your energy

-8m marking range, if the target goes beyond 8m the mark dissapears refunding cost

-You can die mid animation by stray fire or AoEs (for example, trying to Blade Storm a Banshee mid quake would resutl in you dying without touching her)

-While BS does knockdown the target, that knockdown is slightly faster than the recovery animation you experience after finishing BS.

 

 

Quote

Teleport Changes:

• Teleport will now allow you to target anything with a health bar! Instead of being limited to Teleporting to allies or enemies, you can now teleport to objects. 

-Still pointless in Conclave, since it doesn't do anything to the target it's now a mobility tool, which limited only to other players so you can't use it to disengage or flank because you can't teleport to terrain. It's basically a glorified bulletjump that costs 30 energy.

-In PvE it isn't a reliable mobility tool either since you need a crate or sensor or camera for it to work, which means your potential mobility is RNG-based.

Quote

Smokescreen Changes:

• Smoke Screen can now be cast while running (no lower body movement lock).
• Smoke Screen can now be cast while in-air! 

 

Arguably the only improvements overall.

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Please note that we will be closely monitoring your practical feedback - please feel free to share videos and discussions after playing this rework. It'll help us if you include details on your build used too.

I've been playing Ash-only since I started the game 3 years ago. My builds are 3:

A-Balanced: all stats set at default 100%

B-Max Efficiency

C-Max Duration.

A&C cannot possibly use BS for large groups as the cost is just unbearable. Old BS build focused on ditching duration in favor of max efficiency, that got enforced even more by the revisit as the math in a previous comment proves.

 

Conclave full problems (on top of the aforementioned about BS  and Teleport):

-Passive Hemorrhage is good with it's Bleed on hit, but it's only limited to Nikanas. What are we supposed to do? use 10 loadout slots with nikanas and different cosmetic appearance on each?

-Shuriken deals less damage than pre-revisit, while having lost it's tracking capabilities, which means the ability is largely useless.

-Smoke Screen, despite having only 4s duration and breaking on any offensive action or pickup, doesn't make Ash fully invisible unless one is using Black energy.

-Tear Gas Augment currently bugged. You wouldn't blind someone staring at you even if he/she is standing right next to you.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Nazrethim]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

Ye? did i not or did you just try to manipulate the numbers and ignore my reply?

Interesting how you DID JUST THAT.

Quote

wiki

 

• Applying a mark during targeting mode will consume 15 energy. If Ash is invisible by any means (e.g. using Smoke Screen) when the mark is applied, then only 10 energy is consumed. Per mark energy costs are affected by Power Efficiency.

It actually got a bit cheaper. AND stronger due to builds. Not to mention the still present factor of orbs.

You don't have to lecture me on mechanics, I know Invisibility reduces the cost by 33%.

And look at how it drains same energy as old BS for 9 targets. That's HALF the targets old BS used to be able to mark.

Let's factor what would have happened if old BS also got that 33% reduction.

Old BS would use 66 energy to hit 18 targets (or hits)

Current BS would use 10x18= 180 energy. 540 if you account for all 3 marks.

But let's go to 9 targets. Each taking 2 hits from old BS.

Old BS 66 energy.

Current BS 10x9=90. 270 for 3 marks.

You can't win this one. Resistance is futile in the face of actual methematical proof.

-It's over expense, not stronger because damage is the same per assault. And I've proven orbs are even a more beneficial factor for old BS.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

 

Old BS would use 66 energy to hit 18 targets (or hits)

 

100.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

100.

Invisibility is not part of Bladestorm, is an external source of efficiency. It's not just smoke screen, it's ANY invisibility. Therefore if we are going to use it, then we need to apply it to old BS too.

We are comparing BS in vacuum here. No invisibility, no extra efficiency or other power stats. Just default values. Any external effect you apply to it must apply to both, as DE could have used that cheaper while invi mechanic in old BS too.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Invisibility is not part of Bladestorm, is an external source of efficiency. It's not just smoke screen, it's ANY invisibility. Therefore if we are going to use it, then we need to apply it to old BS too.

Still didn't cost 66 but 100 energy.

Are we comparing old bs to new bs or your fantastic concept of what old bs could've been to new bs as it is?... or rather what new bs could've been made? Where do the 270/870(?) come from exactly?

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Still didn't cost 66 but 100 energy.

Are we comparing old bs to new bs or your fantastic concept of what old bs could've been to new bs as it is?...

I'm comparing both on a scientific way. Old BS was, overall, better than current one and way more efficient in terms of energy use. I'm not claiming it needs to return, that is not my intention. My point is that current BS is actually worse than old BS and thus we need a rework.

And I even proved that even without 33% invisibility cost reduction, current BS costs more than old if you mark more than 9 targets. The 33% cost reduction doesn't make up for the ridiculous cost increase.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I'm comparing both on a scientific way. Old BS was, overall, better than current one and way more efficient in terms of energy use. I'm not claiming it needs to return, that is not my intention. My point is that current BS is actually worse than old BS and thus we need a rework.

And I even proved that even without 33% invisibility cost reduction, current BS costs more than old if you mark more than 9 targets. The 33% cost reduction doesn't make up for the ridiculous cost increase.

The "a scientist said so on facebook" kind of science or what exactly?

Cause 133% of 270 sure as hell ain't 800+. Not to mention that 270 is the highest possible energy cost on default efficiency, thus allready 133% of 180 energy, for 18 targets aka 36 hits. Old bs's ideal hitcount twice - 200 energy. With 2 range mods on the build to even cover those targets. Thus doing about half the damage. On a build that allows hardly anything but p4tw. Less energy orbs that would simply despawn otherwise.

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The "a scientist said so on facebook" kind of science or what exactly?

It's a way to explain what is my aproach, I HAVE some game developing and balancing experience in case you don't know (okay, I just did that for 3 unknown indy games, and countless hours working with W3 and SCII editors and Unreal Engine and Cryengine, but still, that's arguably more than the average player)

Quote

Cause 133% of 270 sure as hell ain't 800+. Not to mention that 270 is the highest possible energy cost on default efficiency, thus allready 133% of 180 energy, for 18 targets aka 36 hits. Old bs's ideal hitcount twice - 200 energy. With 2 range mods on the build to even cover those targets. Thus doing about half the damage. On a build that allows hardly anything but p4tw. Less energy orbs that would simply despawn otherwise.

Where exactly do you get this 133% from? What it refers to?

Invisibility reduces the cost by 33% after all other modifiers have been applied. Meaning if you get 33% efficiency before hand to down BS cost per mark to 10, invisibility would only reduce the cost to 6.6 (or a net reduction of 3.3). In the same thread, if you lower your efficiency so BS costs 33% more at 20 per mark, using invisibility would reduce the cost by 6.6 energy.

You got all your math wrong.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

13 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

It's a way to explain what is my aproach, I HAVE some game developing and balancing experience in case you don't know (okay, I just did that for 3 unknown indy games, and countless hours working with W3 and SCII editors and Unreal Engine and Cryengine, but still, that's arguably more than the average player)

Where exactly do you get this 133% from? What it refers to?

Invisibility reduces the cost by 33% after all other modifiers have been applied. Meaning if you get 33% efficiency before hand to down BS cost per mark to 10, invisibility would only reduce the cost to 6.6 (or a net reduction of 3.3). In the same thread, if you lower your efficiency so BS costs 33% more at 20 per mark, using invisibility would reduce the cost by 6.6 energy.

You got all your math wrong.

Did it tho or did it not?

And sry, it's actually 100% and 66%. or 100% and 150%.

Meant to say that the 270 you mentioned as "min" value previously is allready the default value. 100% or 150% of 180 energy on 18 Targets doing 36 hits. Or 90 energy on 9 targets doing the same ammount of hits.

 

It is worth mentioning too that the enemy count limitation was implemented shortly before Bladestorm was changed. Means every level range was spammed enough to be able to hit 18 targets, also means that even those, or especially those level ranges only allowed an average of 8 hits. Anything above that made you get stuck on Eximus units. Thus again only unleashing 18 hits on an average of 8 targets.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

How exactly was p4tw, less energy gain, getting stuck on enemys for potentially more cost even on the unrealistic, ideal hitcounter, literally any of this better?

New BS is not less efficient then Old BS was. Nor is it slower on anything above level ranges where picking finisher damage aoe over elemental aoe actually made sense.

I'm making a assumption here...you're simply a fan of p4tw right?

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

On 08/05/2017 at 2:25 PM, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Speaking of Ninjas might as well use this time right? any ideas for Augments?

For the Blade Storm stance? Sure. These are the ones I use in my concept, but you can use it too or tweak them to your hearts desire.

PvE: Rising Storm

Increase Combo counter duration while in Blade Storm mode by 4s (base+2s per mod rank for a total of 10s) and the combo increase by 0.5x (+0.25x per rank, for a total of +1.25x)

 

PvP: Sinister Shadows

Dodging in any direction while in BS mode makes Ash invisible for 1s and leaves an illusory copy of him behind that lasts for 2s.

Note: the copy doesn't have collision (meaning you can walk or shoot trough it), nor moves or attacks, it's a freezeframe of Ash's last position before the dodge and it's purpose is only as a distraction. The copy would banish in a poof of smoke shortly after.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Let's see... 18 targets for 100 energy or 18 targets for 270/810 energy.. 

That's it. You only changed the topic and still didn't explain this totally accurate math.

150% of 270, the 100% value that can and will be lowered to 66% in actuall gameplay= 810?

But you're going ahead and calculating off a mechanic old BS didn't have, to proove how much better it was?....yea, that works.

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

On 08/05/2017 at 2:17 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And sry, it's actually 100% and 66%. or 100% and 150%.

Meant to say that the 270 you mentioned as "min" value previously is allready the default value. 100% or 150% of 180 energy on 18 Targets doing 36 hits. Or 90 energy on 9 targets doing the same ammount of hits.

 

It is worth mentioning too that the enemy count limitation was implemented shortly before Bladestorm was changed. Means every level range was spammed enough to be able to hit 18 targets, also means that even those, or especially those level ranges only allowed an average of 8 hits. Anything above that made you get stuck on Eximus units. Thus again only unleashing 18 hits on an average of 8 targets.

 

On 08/05/2017 at 2:26 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

How exactly was p4tw, less energy gain, getting stuck on enemys for potentially more cost even on the unrealistic, ideal hitcounter, literally any of this better?

New BS is not less efficient then Old BS was. Nor is it slower on anything above level ranges where picking finisher damage aoe over elemental aoe actually made sense.

I'm making a assumption here...you're simply a fan of p4tw right?

I'm calculating BS in vacuum. Of COURSE enemies resistant to it would make the whole thing longer. External modifiers, which include Eximus and Ancient Disruptors among others, are not being considered in the calculations.

If you bothered to EVER read the ideas I propose, I'm not fan of p4tw, it arguably the only good thing that came out of this BS change. I propose ideas that make BS good as old, without falling in P4tW, without overlapping with Teleport, Shuriken and without enforcing max efficiency, while at the same time being easy to balance for Conclave. And making it interactive non-braindead to booth. You are the one coming ot as the p4tw with you minmaxed builds and metaarguments.

On 08/05/2017 at 2:39 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

and you only changed the topic and still didn't explain this totally accurate math.

150% of 270, the 100% value that can and will be lowered to 66% in actuall gameplay= 810?

And you clearly cannot read apparently. 270 is the absolute minimum cost with Current BS to mark the SAME amount of targets old BS had a cap at. The 810 is the actual cost of marking every single one of those 18 targets with all 3 marks. Lowered to 66% by invisibility takes us to..180 and 540 respectively, which is still dumb as hell.

AND SOMETHING ELSE!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

44 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

.

And you clearly cannot read apparently. 270 is the absolute minimum cost with Current BS to mark the SAME amount of targets old BS had a cap at. The 810 is the actual cost of marking every single one of those 18 targets with all 3 marks. Lowered to 66% by invisibility takes us to..180 and 540 respectively, which is still dumb as hell.

 

still:

15x18=270.             -100%

10x18 (min)=180   -66%

270x3(!)=810          -300%

not the min value

Only max x3

 

It's sad how your whole point builds on this while also ignoring the actuall hits done, builds that don't require range, the higher damage due to the absence of range (default range is old max range), even the energy regen due to the bigger physical covered ground.

Old BS hit those 18 targets only once ya know. It also didn't refund you energy on marks that didn't get the attack.

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

nope.

15x18=270.             -100%

10x18 (min)=180   -66%

270x3(!)=810          -300%

not the min value

neather max + 1/3 but max x3

Still you will note that all of those values are way higher than old BS cost for no justified reason. Math is against you I told you. Math rules the universe and you can't escape it no matter how much you force yourself to deny it.

And if you account for Smoke Screen cast, the 'min' cost goes up to 205

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

45 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Still you will note that all of those values are way higher than old BS cost for no justified reason. Math is against you I told you. Math rules the universe and you can't escape it no matter how much you force yourself to deny it.

And if you account for Smoke Screen cast, the 'min' cost goes up to 205

Ah gotcha, thought the marks off the innitial mark were free.

It indeed is 180 and 270 for all of the 18 marks.

 

Point remains that it still easily does double the damage doing so and that the clones became the autopilot BS got by default.

 

The vanished need for extra range in soecific and thus 2-3 mod slots less, they're still gonna be ignored i assume? Meaning the still same dmg/energy ratio. Doing the same damage to the same targets would've cost old bs none the less ya know. Like, literally. 

Energy refund too, that indeed lowers the cost for anything below 18 targets? Cause, again, old bs hitting 18 targets OR times was a exceptation.

Same actuall hit targets-Double the damage, thus halved cost per damage. That's most likely what this was balanced around.

 

Oversimplified math sure does not. We would be 2 Dimensional if it did.

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

36 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

For the Blade Storm stance? Sure. These are the ones I use in my concept, but you can use it too or tweak them to your hearts desire.

PvE: Rising Storm

Increase Combo counter duration while in Blade Storm mode by 4s (base+2s per mod rank for a total of 10s) and the combo increase by 0.5x (+0.25x per rank, for a total of +1.25x)

 

PvP: Sinister Shadows

Dodging in any direction while in BS mode makes Ash invisible for 1s and leaves an illusory copy of him behind that lasts for 2s.

Note: the copy doesn't have collision (meaning you can walk or shoot trough it), nor moves or attacks, it's a freezeframe of Ash's last position before the dodge and it's purpose is only as a distraction. The copy would banish in a poof of smoke shortly after.

Rising Storm sounds interresting, a mod to give those who like Bladestorm a way to be more focusing on it and be rewarded for it. Yeah i like it!

 

Sinister Shadow is interresting but maybe make him invisible for 2 seconds, also maybe the Clone will walk around blocking so it looks like Ash is planning somehting.

Though i have to say its gonna have kind of a limited use as players catch on to the trick. Its not like spy who can do a million things with his clocks.

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Rising Storm sounds interresting, a mod to give those who like Bladestorm a way to be more focusing on it and be rewarded for it. Yeah i like it!

Thank you. Honestly I think that, since stance ultimates don't benefit from Body Count/Drifting Contact, their augments should give them such effect +something special.

Quote

Sinister Shadow is interresting but maybe make him invisible for 2 seconds, also maybe the Clone will walk around blocking so it looks like Ash is planning somehting.

Though i have to say its gonna have kind of a limited use as players catch on to the trick. Its not like spy who can do a million things with his clocks.

Well, that depends on how you look at it. It would definetly confuse twich-reflex players, specially in the heat of battle. The invisibility isn't actually present in my concept because in it Ash gets all his dodge maneuvers replaced by manic-like teleport-dashes that make him effectively dissapear and reappear a few meters away. But since your concept doesn't have that I thought that 1s invisibility (so your enemy doesn't exactly know which way you dodged to) would be enough.

Edit: If anything, the copy could dodge in the opposite direction you are doing it.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

20 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Thank you. Honestly I think that, since stance ultimates don't benefit from Body Count/Drifting Contact, their augments should give them such effect +something special.

Well, that depends on how you look at it. It would definetly confuse twich-reflex players, specially in the heat of battle. The invisibility isn't actually present in my concept because in it Ash gets all his dodge maneuvers replaced by manic-like teleport-dashes that make him effectively dissapear and reappear a few meters away. But since your concept doesn't have that I thought that 1s invisibility (so your enemy doesn't exactly know which way you dodged to) would be enough.

Edit: If anything, the copy could dodge in the opposite direction you are doing it.

Hmmm actually i like that idea, kinda like how Limbo has a Void Slide thingie, maybe when he goes into Hidden Blades he gains those cool Manic dodges by default?

[Nazrethim]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Point remains that it still easily does double the damage doing so and that the clones became the autopilot BS got by default.

That depends on how you look at it. The damage per assault remained the same, only now you are capped at 3 attacks per target, each additional attack increasing the cost. Old BS, when used against fewer than 18 target cap would continue to attack still-living targets until the 18 attacks were done, if it was down to a single enemy the clones dissapeared and Ash continued until the 18 cap, which meant you got stuck on enemies resistant to it. The same enemies are still resistant to it but you don't get stuck. If you had, say, 9 targets, BS would attack twice each, if 4 of them died instantly the other 5 remaining would eat more attacks, thus increasing the damage they take due to more attacks plus stacked bleed procs.

Quote

Extra range and thus 2-3 mod slots still gonna be ignored i assume? Meaning the still same dmg/energy ratio. Doing the same damage to the same targets would've cost old bs none the less ya know. Like, literally.

Not, the extra range is actually a buff, and at best it only saved 2 slots (Drift mods didn't exist at the time) and only if you really really wanted that much range, as Stretch was usually enough to paint most rooms, sans the 3 or 4 largest rooms in the game, which few abilities can cover anyway. The dmg/energy used ratio only improves if you mark fewer than 9 enemies with a single mark each, otherwise the cost goes trough the roof by comparison to old BS. Current BS is designed as a mass slaughter tool just like old BS was. Why do you think the target cap was increased to 50 and the marking range to 50m? Also explains the soft-lock marking, so you can swipe the screen and mark large groups of enemies. Yet it's not practical to use the ability for it's intended purpose due to the prohibitive cost.

Quote

Energy refund too, that indeed lowers the cost for anything below 18 targets? Cause, again, old bs hitting 18 targets OR times was a exceptation.

That also depends. To not dive into actual values, let's say BS deals 100 damage per attack with 35 per second for 7 seconds Bleed. That gives us a total of 345 total damage PER attack.

Energy is only refunded if the target dies before the additional attacks occur. Let's say you blade storm targets that have 250 health. You attack (1 mark, 100 damage+35 first bleed tick)>clone attacks (2nd mark, damage done so far 200+105 combined of inital bleed tick+second 1st strike tick+2nd strike first bleed tick)>second clone attack (using up the last mark). In this specific case the third mark wasn't used and was refunded, but if you bladestormed a target with 340 health it would have, despite the target being a second or two of dying by bleeds.

Also, I'm not accounting here for Hemorrhage Bleed damage buff.

As you can see, even if your Bleed would have taken out the target on it's own, the clones would continue to attack and thus using the marks. So the energy saved only works if you instakill the targets, at which point multimarking becomes pointless. And if the target can endure more than the intial attack plus it's first 2 bleed ticks, then energy is wasted. The refund mechanic it's actually there so you don't lose energy if your allies kill the marked targets before you get to them, helping Ash's energy management isn't really it's function.

Quote

Oversimplified math sure does not. We would be 2 Dimensional if it did.

I could dive into more advanced formulas, but since there must be some people who are following our discussion without commenting on it, I try to put in layman terms to make it a relatively easy read. It's the same reason I avoid talking about game mechanics in the proper technical words in general.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Nazrethim]

21 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Hmmm actually i like that idea, kinda like how Limbo has a Void Slide thingie, maybe when he goes into Hidden Blades he gains those cool Manic dodges by default?

That's pretty much the idea. In actual mechanical change, Ash's dodge rolls would be replaced by Limbo-like slides, only with more distance traveled (about 4m), a puff of smoke effect on both ends (similar to the puff of smokes present during blade storm or teleports) and Ash becoming invisible for a fraction of a second, even to the player. The whole thing would look like a short teleport to the eyes of those who don't know how it actually works.

As I said many times, my concepts don't add anything to the game, they just rearrange present mechanics and features in interesting ways :D

For example, I picture in my mind your Ashiko running as reusing the same animation we have while running on zip lines.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

18 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

That's pretty much the idea. In actual mechanical change, Ash's dodge rolls would be replaced by Limbo-like slides, only with more distance traveled (about 4m), a puff of smoke effect on both ends (similar to the puff of smokes present during blade storm or teleports) and Ash becoming invisible for a fraction of a second, even to the player. The whole thing would look like a short teleport to the eyes of those who don't know how it actually works.

As I said many times, my concepts don't add anything to the game, they just rearrange present mechanics and features in interesting ways :D

For example, I picture in my mind your Ashiko running as reusing the same animation we have while running on zip lines.

Why dont you share those ideas with the group? maybe the add to more than you think :D

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Overextendet+stretch, generally max range was a definitive mandatory back then when actually aiming for it's purpose as not only the actuall attack range but also the innitial mark range was a factor worth considering, playing for the purpose of a mass slaughter tool. Those generally 2 slots undoubtful raised the damage due to the remained 60% strength that would've been lost otherwise and had to be compensated, what didn't that you had 60% less damage but also locked away one of the 3 existing strength mods, when only 2 allowed efficiency/max efficiency in the first place.

 

Efficient builds that COULD hit 18 times hit for -60%, +55%, +30%, up to 2500 damage x18 - 45k damage on 100% efficiency - 2,2~ energy per 1000 damage.

The missing need for the same purpose allows 185% strength for 180 or 270 energy - 3700 x 18 - 66,6k - 2,7 energy or 4,05 energy per 1000 damage power drift, which possibly would be cunning drift now would've raised it to straight 4000 hit damage 2,5 per 1000 on definitive 18 hits

Energy efficiency on Old BS would've of course dropped for every not marked enemy

2,2 for 18

2,35 for 17

2,5 for just 16 hits on a single activation, what's the milestone for the min value

 

4,0 for 10, the milestone for the max value.

excluding bleed and easyer combo for simplicity too.

 

It was hypotetical more efficient back then but only in really high levels, that made you waste "marks" on eximus units, that remained better off killed with teleport (now fatal). 

 

Min eff trough a easy to access tool in his kit equals 16 actuall hits. There was a loss but only for about 12% on ideal hits vs invisibility and the eximus thing, that represents max cost most likely.

 

Pretty sure that it was less of a downgrade then you'd believe it to be.

Edited May 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108