Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Not by kills ~

There's also this augument that makes him ripp armor.

And don't mind that guy with his stance. He beats that agenda into ash threads like it ows him money.

Edited May 1, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[W01fe]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Not by kills ~

There's also this augument that makes him ripp armor.

And don't mind that guy with his stance. He beats that agenda into ash threads like it ows him money.

what is not by kills? sorry sometimes without quotes its hard to understand.

augment for rip armor? you mean seeking shurikens? abilities should also have uses without mods.

i dont mind a stance idea, its just a bit harder to conceptualize for him imo. 

edit:  generally a stance 4 is reflected in the frames passive or overall kit.

ash's passive is about slash status.  

Therefore it makes sense if shurikens had slash procs, heck id go as far as to take away its initial damage entirely and give it 100% slash procs along with punch through just in case your in a hallway.  Simply scale its slash damage off of the combo multiplier.

his 4 could simply be called bladed soul, giving all his attacks 100% chance to proc slash damage and allow weapons with 100% slash status to do something more, wich would also change the shuriken to doing something more as well as it starts with 100% slash status procs.

 

Make ash slash focused basically.

Edited May 1, 2017 by W01fe

[Nazrethim]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And don't mind that guy with his stance. He beats that agenda into ash threads like it ows him money.

Excuse me? My only comment about stance ultimates on this thread was an answer to one of OPs comments that mentioned them and how they compare in general to nuke abilities. The rest of my comments is mostly about general rework ideas (that is, identify what needs to be changed and what would be the most optimal, interesting and Fun).

I'm prodding the OP into improving his ideas by careful contemplation of all the different things that can be done. I've seen Ash threads that propose interesting non-stance ideas and I fully supported them because they did tackled most issues of the frame while keeping the theme.

What is YOUR agenda? Keeping Ash in enforced efficiency hell?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Birdframe_Prime]

All valid points, except this:

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Except they forgot to keep the relative Cost per Enemy ratio of old BS

The cost of BS was literally what made it so appealing as a 4TW strategy. The fact that you could nyx duration in favour of a max efficiency build on this one ability and have it guarantee the kills on up to 18 enemies above and beyond the limit of any other frame for just 25 energy was certifiably insane.

There was no way DE would have let that go on even if they didn't change how BS was triggered, not after the other changes to abilities that scaled or otherwise nuked.

[W01fe]

i personally think it would be best to doaway with 4's whole theme and make something from the ground up that could synergize with his overall kit better.  it swings from press4 to win to 4 whats that?  its just no good.

[Nazrethim]

6 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

All valid points, except this:

The cost of BS was literally what made it so appealing as a 4TW strategy. The fact that you could nyx duration in favour of a max efficiency build on this one ability and have it guarantee the kills on up to 18 enemies above and beyond the limit of any other frame for just 25 energy was certifiably insane.

There was no way DE would have let that go on even if they didn't change how BS was triggered, not after the other changes to abilities that scaled or otherwise nuked.

Reminds me a discussion I had with another player a couple of days ago, how he convinced me that the problem is that Efficiency works wrong by reducing the cost at the rate it currently does. To make the long story short, the formula he showed me if Efficiency worked as Efficiency and not the current cost reduction, a 100 energy spell, at max 175% efficiency, would cost ~57 energy, which is more than twice what we get when we max effi.

On the other hand, other abilities in a similar fashion have no such cost per enemy, Loki can disarm unlimited targets within it's non-LoS-requiring radius, Nova can Prime anybody, Mirage, Frost, Nidus. All their AoE or multiple target abilities have no limit.

If anything, the base cost of 1 mark should equal to old BS cost, which would set it to about 6 energy per mark, 18 if you apply all 3.

Or, you know, rework Ash in such a way that Fleeting Expertise becomes a choice with drawback rather than the de facto setup-

Edited May 1, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, W01fe said:

.

Refering to the op, that loki is superior to ash in every ways, but that's definitly not the case with kills.

 

Bladestorm got its uses as it is and so does the passive, specially as combo has never been so strong on melee as it is now.

Bladestrom, beein a damage beast aside substains combo, what pushes and substains those kinda combo centered builds indefinitly (WAY harder to do it with melee only then just marking enemys from afar, especially with strong groups and as you actually kill and not only tickle enemys) what pushes theyr damage (crit, red crit w blood rush) and status (weeping wounds - max max slash boost trough the crit), all while adding and reseting stealth multipliers (smoke bomb does that too), what currently affects not only the damage but also the slash status...

Not good enough? The combo substain is good enough to play melee offhand too (pure, solid gold if you got maiming strike - blood rush calculates AFTER maiming strike, meaning off a 90+basecrit percentage), what gives you the option to play a primary and still use melee to its peak (Ignis wraith for example - Aoe Viral plus slash status on this broken base kills you everything in this game)

All while having mobility finishers, armor ripp and access to every type of stealth in the game (SB, naramons shadow step, trickery)

And did you notice that marked enemys can do jack while BS is active? (Especially usefull in interceptions)

 

The resulting slash proccs, especially with his passive are sheer insanity. He adds damage to the group ya know, constant, substainable, max max damage on a status type that is finisher where literally any other frame starts falling off BAD.

 

For shurikens to do that too- adding combo- is a rather nice idea actually, you could get more combo outa different ranges, thumbs up for that one. This other dude had the idea that it could scale of them too, what's also a good idea but seeking shuriken works for him, ripping armor thus boostig damage in a spammable onehandet action, especially with how easy he is to build: no need for extra range, clones double BS damage-hardly need for strength more then seeking needs, you can keep duration ballanced with shadow step and trickery beein a thing and energy isn't an issue with sentinels picking up orbs while bladestroming and what does teleport need? I got 155 strength, max effi wo p flow, 115 duration and 2 auguments on him and not a single regret.

He works hella fine as is if you ask me.

Edited May 1, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Or, you know, rework Ash in such a way that Fleeting Expertise becomes a choice with drawback rather than the de facto setup-

And, whether you think they got it right or not, this most recent change was actually an attempt to do that. The reason being that the synergy with Smokescreen was designed to reduce the cost of a mark beyond what efficiency could do, so modding for a longer duration Smokescreen would overall reduce the cost of BS to compensate for the loss of Fleeting Expertise. Again, whether this is actually successful, that's entirely not the issue. 

I mean, as to your other points, I could go into how Loki's RD isn't harming enemies or making them actually easier to kill, it's barely even a CC with its 3 second stun on any formerly armed enemies, but not on melee enemies. Yes it makes the game easier overall for players, because a bunch of melee enemies is less of a threat than gun-equipped enemies, but no easier than it is for a good Zephyr player using Turbulence. The take-away from this is that the other frames have other abilities designed for different purposes, while Ash is designed for damage against enemies, and there should be limits to how effective that can be when compared to other frames that are designed to do the same.

I guess if I had a point to all this discussion, it's that I would rather see damage, armour scaling and enemy AI fixed than get further changes to Blade Storm, you know what I mean? Fix the enemies and the way damage works first, then we're free to see how BS would work better against them.

[W01fe]

bladestorm a damage beast? hate to break it to you but its not.  and even if it is, it could do all the damage in the world, still takes too long to setup without spasming around your mouse like your having a seizure, no gameplay should involve that requirement period.  And then the animation takes so long any other  damage frame could have wiped the entire room in less time.  

Every frame offers damage to a group, and if you build your mods/weapons correctly you dont have to worry about falloff until very unreasonable levels/times and then you can just run 4x CP and still not care (wich basically removes the need for seeking shuriken entirely)

his slash passive just means your better off using slash focused weapons, it doesnt do a lot for his base warframe kit.  

 

[Nazrethim]

9 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

And, whether you think they got it right or not, this most recent change was actually an attempt to do that. The reason being that the synergy with Smokescreen was designed to reduce the cost of a mark beyond what efficiency could do, so modding for a longer duration Smokescreen would overall reduce the cost of BS to compensate for the loss of Fleeting Expertise. Again, whether this is actually successful, that's entirely not the issue. 

That works only in theory, as the reduction granted by invisibility is inversely affected by efficiency: It reduces BS cost by 5 or 33% of it's base cost, which means if you equip Streamline alone (30%) BS mark cost is just 11 and Smoke Screen reduces that by 3.5.

If anything, another posibility to adress this inflated cost, is to make only the initial mark cost 15 and the additional marks only 5, which would be a massive QoL. Still doens't fix the issues in general with the frame, but at least the cost is brought down to more reasonable values.

Quote

I guess if I had a point to all this discussion, it's that I would rather see damage, armour scaling and enemy AI fixed than get further changes to Blade Storm, you know what I mean? Fix the enemies and the way damage works first, then we're free to see how BS would work better against them.

I agree on fixing enemies, and fixing us (because honestly, Shadowtep, Zenurik, EV, Energize, Pizzas and the way Effi works; are mostly responsible of things like broken enemy scaling and nullifiers).

Though Ash problems aren't really related to enemy scaling, rather poor QoL that stem from poor forethought on developing and adressing his abilities.

I'm enjoying this conversation.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

It's finisher that sends clones after it what still makes it the strongest damage dealing ability in the game with endless scaling beeing a factor. I didn't say it's the fastest, nor the best aoe ability but it's the strongest.

 

And theoretical envirements aside, what's the chance to actually get a group with 4x CP ever since the void got replaced with random fissures... Hell, the recruitment tab has been dead ever since that change on consoles. Is it bad to have a frame that is able to overperform despise that?

His passive indeed adds to weapons and so does his kit. Is this bad of a role for a frame? Weapon buffer? SLASH STATUS WEAPON BUFFER, in a time where it's as potent as it is now? All while beein mobile, supporting invisibility and having finisher damage moves?

Chroma is actually beein recognized as one with none of that and among the most played frames in the game. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[midtarget]

10-13 energy per target is not "too high" when I clear a room, it uses about 130 energy, which is very useful condsidering the old version uses 100 energy unmoded even if it's one target

[W01fe]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It's finisher that sends clones after it what still makes it the strongest damage dealing ability in the game with endless scaling beeing a factor. I didn't say it's the fastest, nor the best aoe ability but it's the strongest.

 

And theoretical envirements aside, what's the chance to actually get a group with 4x CP ever since the void got replaced with random fissures... Hell, the recruitment tab has been dead ever since that change on consoles. Is it bad to have a frame that is able to overperform despise that?

His passive indeed adds to weapons and so does his kit. Is this bad of a role for a frame? Weapon buffer? SLASH STATUS WEAPON BUFFER, in a time where it's as potent as it is now? All while beein mobile, supporting invisibility and having finisher damage moves?

Chroma is actually beein recognized as one with none of that and among the most played frames in the game. 

its not overperform,, it merely makes the mod slot useless.  im not saying i dislike seeking shuriken either, im simply stating the shuriken needs a use outside of "mod it"

 

i didnt say his passive was bad, merely that his abilities could be tweaked to offer more synergy towards it, and i stated that most stance 4's are based around there kit and/or passive.

[W01fe]

16 minutes ago, midtarget said:

10-13 energy per target is not "too high" when I clear a room, it uses about 130 energy, which is very useful condsidering the old version uses 100 energy unmoded even if it's one target

and in that time i killed 90% of the room by using melee only.  for no energy cost.  

[midtarget]

That isn't a dropkcick, it's a dragon kick

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Though Ash problems aren't really related to enemy scaling, rather poor QoL that stem from poor forethought on developing and adressing his abilities.

Forethought is difficult when you have to consider that Ash is one of the original 8 frames, and the game has been moving and changing from under him for four years now...

All frames need work over time simply because of this, while some of them need looking at because of problems that relate to gameplay, such as Limbo starting out as a cool concept, but his execution in game and abilities meaning that he basically lacked gameplay overall, a similar problem has developed with Zephyr, and yet a different way of looking at it happened with Oberon thanks to the efforts of making him a jack-of-all-trades but master of none.

For Ash I still put the problems down to the complete split purposes of the community leading up to the actual rework, the problem is that they listened, not that they made changes, but that they didn't do it their way. If you need any better example of the main difference between DE's own working method and when they feel they have to listen to the community, just look at the Limbo/Oberon differences.

Limbo is one where DE decided to go their usual method, and what ended up happening? Over power; Limbo ended up with several exploitable aspects and a singularly over-powered ability, which then gets nerfed over time back to just 'good' again. However with Oberon they felt needed listening to the community and the result was that they simply tried to buff all aspects of what he does, and try to please everyone, but the result is pretty much under powered. Forced synergy making us spam abilities on a low base energy frame and quite a few buggy mechanics (like the scaling damage with no base damage meaning that Smite couldn't actually kill a level 1 enemy...) didn't work as well as they hoped. And all because they didn't use their usual methods.

Ash was the latter, they listened to what the community wanted and, like humanity in general, every single opinion under the sun (and under a rock) came to light. DE had no idea which was right and so made the Path of Least Resistance change, where they pleased the 'no change ever' group and kept the base ability and all its damage, tried to please the anti-4TW method guys by making it harder to pull off a room wipe, while at the same time trying to please the 'I find 18 cutscenes boring' crowd by making it incredibly easy to screw that one specific enemy into the floor with extreme prejudice with only 1 scene, or two or three if you preferred.

Blade Storm has been side-graded, not buffed or nerfed, it's as boring now as it was then, however it does fit more with the methodology that DE are currently working towards.

But they should have done it their usual way. I prefer the methods of making it powerful first and balancing back as the community finds all the exploits, to the way of trying to please everyone and so getting an underwhelming change and having to buff that change up to 'good enough'.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

49 minutes ago, W01fe said:

its not overperform,, it merely makes the mod slot useless.  im not saying i dislike seeking shuriken either, im simply stating the shuriken needs a use outside of "mod it"

 

i didnt say his passive was bad, merely that his abilities could be tweaked to offer more synergy towards it, and i stated that most stance 4's are based around there kit and/or passive.

Fun fact: It had slash for the longest time but it was irrelevant ammounts and it would again be.

 

I mean making it substain bs's potential in lower levels certainly is worth taking a look at and that whole combo thing i fully support but he really doesn't -need- it. His synergys are in kit making weapons perform...i mean name one frame that can go all gun and still go kicking a** with a fully wound up combo counter under invisibility. There is none other then ash.

Full melee Saryn comes close with this whole viral thing her spores have a chance to procc but that only substains a weapon choice and she doesn't have the kit to back it up.

Edited May 1, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

10 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

-snip-

So, Ash got scr*wed by the million different directions the community wanted to go? Probably.

On the other hand let's also consider that their first idea was World on Bladestorm, and was the community who pointed out that was a dumb idea. There was also the community's general opinion that Smoke Screen should make an actual smoke screen and be castable while on the move, they did one of those which was nice but SS is still invisibility but shorter and with pointless stagger.

The Conclave side is horrendous too, to the point Ash's strong point is that he can dedicate his energy to channeling melee exclusively as the powers are useless outside of very very specific situations, and even in those situations the chance of wasting energy is almost guaranteed.

But now it has been a year, and bar some recent Ash rework threads, only a handful of individuals kept posting feedback and proposing solutions that could work. Yet DE has not given any sign of life on the subject. True, they are busy now with lots of other stuff, but by this point even a "We will consider giving him another pass in the future" would be enough.

But you may be right and they are waiting for players who got used to old BS to let it go (which judging by recent world on bladestorm and "let clones kill while I shoot" posts isn't likely to happen soon) and then put actual work on him.

[W01fe]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Fun fact: It had slash for the longest time but it was irrelevant ammounts and it would again be.

 

I mean making it substain bs's potential in lower levels certainly is worth taking a look at and that whole combo thing i fully support but he really doesn't -need- it. His synergys are in kit making weapons perform...i mean name one frame that can go all gun and still go kicking a** with a fully wound up combo counter under invisibility. There is none other then ash.

Full melee Saryn comes close with this whole viral thing her spores have a chance to procc but that only substains a weapon choice and she doesn't have the kit to back it up.

 

his kit is still 3/4 useless when not modded and 2/4 niche when modded.

he is a good solo frame and the pros you mention mainly work in solo.  

outside of that tho, he is a weaker loki.  Because his other 3 abilities dont play well in groups.  

He also offers no utility to the group.  I disagree with the bassis that a frame shouldnt have to have something more then damage to offer to a group.  

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Not good enough? The combo substain is good enough to play melee offhand too (pure, solid gold if you got maiming strike - blood rush calculates AFTER maiming strike, meaning off a 90+basecrit percentage), what gives you the option to play a primary and still use melee to its peak (Ignis wraith for example - Aoe Viral plus slash status on this broken base kills you everything in this game)

All while having mobility finishers, armor ripp and access to every type of stealth in the game (SB, naramons shadow step, trickery)

I got 155 strength, max effi wo p flow, 115 duration and 2 auguments on him and not a single regret.

Good. Now try do the same without broken stuff. See how much you can sustain that. After all, if Ash is so starsparkling awesome as you claim, I'm sure you won't have trouble with basic non-meta values. Right? right?

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, midtarget said:

That isn't a dropkcick, it's a dragon kick

RYUJIN NO KEN WO KICKARSE!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

14 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Good. Now try do the same without broken stuff. See how much you can sustain that. After all, if Ash is so starsparkling awesome as you claim, I'm sure you won't have trouble with basic non-meta values. Right? right?

Why would i when he's literally the only frame that uses them to perfection?

Go tackle high levels with chroma using a mk1 and a similar build. Go use mesa without a propper gun build or excal with the same.

Why would you measure a frames affinity on anything below of what the game has to offer?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

35 minutes ago, W01fe said:

He also offers no utility to the group.  I disagree with the bassis that a frame shouldnt have to have something more then damage to offer to a group.  

When random and solo are definitive options?

Why is it bad to have frames that offer A++ results on that basis? There's more then enough frames that offer just what you're looking for, and then there's frames like chroma, Warcry valkyr and ash, frames that neather give, nor have to rely on that kinda stuff.

Why would you'all want to take this from him instead of just choosing another frame? This goes beyond me. It really does.

Edited May 2, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[W01fe]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

When random and solo are definitive options?

Why is it bad to have frames that offer A++ results on that basis? There's more then enough frames that offer just what you're looking for, and then there's frames like chroma, inaros, Warcry valkyr and ash, frames that neather give, nor have to rely on that kinda stuff.

Why would you'all want to take this from him instead of just choosing another frame? This goes beyond me. It really does.

because this is a co-op game, im fine with him being a good solo frame, i want him and every frame to be a good co-op frame.  

you seem to think ash is good, hes not, at least not in this context.  

id also hardly call it A++ for his solo viability, any frame that can solo well either does 1 of 3 things

 

near impossible to kill through EHP (tanking)

near impossible to take damage due to controlling enemies (aoe CC)

stealth

ash survives on the virtue of stealth, nothing more.  you can get the same results with loki and be faster, or ivara and not worry about stealth timers.  

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

18 minutes ago, W01fe said:

 

Co-op =/= Cc

Makes you wonder if all that talk would finally stop if they'd actually go ahead and balance WF closer to other mmorpg's, where roles like single/aoe DD, support and tank actually matter beyond simple playability. Cause people clearly can't accept anything but low level bombing or High level Cc as it stands.

Anyways, bye. Feel free to quote me, don't expect me to further reply tho. This thread can sink into the abys for all i care, combo shuriken or not.

But you sure got to discuss a thing or two to discuss with Naz, who wants to make Ash another kind of the same role. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108