Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Rain3ternal]

3 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

Salt and bitterness aside, I'm honestly willing to accept further frames as is instead of having them reworked. Saryn was the first one in what I see as a downward spiral in usefulness for frames and neglection to community feedback regarding said frames. If they don't fix Saryn and Ash, and take time and feedback on what should be changed into consideration for future reworks then DE is going to kill this game, and no matter how much content they come out with it won't bring people back. I really hope DE learns from Saryn and Ash and don't ruin upcoming frame reworks.

I completely agree, the rework needs a rework for both frames. Until then like Saryn, I won't be touching Ash again. Time to completely devote my attention to Ivara who also has a place in my heart. Soon enough she won't be able to use her 4 because of arrow spam. Can't wait. 

[Xastien10]

First:

SHURIKENS SUCK! Why would I use 2 500 slash damage stars for 25 energy instead of marking 2 targets for 30 energy?

It needs a combo counter like Atlas but with a twist: combo counter increases efficiency but not damage, instead it increases number of Shurikens to 2/4/8 (or maybe 6?)

Shuriken prioritizes marked targets and hits them with infinite punch through before any other enemy, if a marked target is hit, it gains an extra mark, with limit of 1. (If it is 1, it becomes 2 but can't become 3 after that and no longer prioritizes)

This would:

1. Make shurikens more useful

2. Make shuriken augment more useful (more shurikens = more enemies you can strip armor of)

3. Allow you to choose who to shuriken

4. Allows you to mark an extra time with less energy if combo is achieved

DE, please make Shuriken more useful. With new Bladestorm, there is 0 reason to use it other can breaking Sensor Bars..

[Ombrenoirz]

In my opinion Ash should have a counter of many ennemies she marked with Blade Storm. Maybe the counter should be on the icon of the ability in bottom right. I will appreciate a counter because at the moment the best way is to look at your energy bar, and a counter would be good to activate Blade Storm at the right time when you judge you have marked enough ennemies and when you spin your mouse and you don't have the time to check how many markers you see on every ennemies.

Well it's just my opinion. Thanks for reading :)

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ombrenoirz

[Efro_D_Siac]

It's catching a lot of flack but IMO Its a step in the right direction,  lve always loved ash but never relied on bladestorm until tonight where I gave it an active try along with alot of smokescreen and melee 

 It kicked a$$  in sorties solo and on a team and was fun in a way to try something new that took player participation I just know they can do much better and should keep working on it 

[Issxi]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I dont have to mark targets for spore or misma, You cannot compare Ash and Saryn. Sayrn is still vary viable and synergies well with team play. Ash rework has no place in this game.

Exactly, having frames specifically tailored towards Solo or Group play is bad. Saryn lost her independance and Ash gained it, Saryn being good ONLY with a team as a crutch and now Ash ONLY as a lone wolf.

DE needs to start thinking about reworking frames to compliment and improve both preferred playstyles instead of favoring (intentional or otherwise) one. Also complexity doesn't count as a rework. In a game as fast-paced as Warframe we shouldn't have these abilities that require more than one ability to function with minimal results or overly complex and time-consuming mechanics such as the new Bladestorm. I'm not saying they need to be an instant payoff, but they don't need to take an abundance of time to pull off. The more work that is required, the bigger the payoff. That is how it should be, not visa-versa.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Xylyssa

[WhyNotBro]

i'm thinking...only 2 aoe dps frames left (Ember and Equinox), so...how long we should wait for their "rework"? Let's clean all frames who can kill enemies in area, we are not playing fast-phased game with tonns of enemies all over the player, right?

[Rain3ternal]

This overall just feels like the rework was made to do one thing, and that's pander to those who had people who spammed bladestorm. Not all players even used the move with any frequency myself included. I didn't like sitting through an animation back then, and I don't like having a useless move now. There has to be a compromise. 

[Issxi]

Just now, WhyNotBro said:

i'm thinking...only 2 aoe dps frames left (Ember and Equinox), so...how long we should wait for their "rework"? Let's clean all frames who can kill enemies in area, we are not playing fast-phased game with tonns of enemies all over the player, right?

Ember most likely is safe because she was one of the first to be reworked. Equinox on the other hand has so many mechanics that she will of course get changed to be more of a risk than a reward.

[_Iye]

11 minutes ago, Ombrenoirz said:

she marked...!!

Well you guys dont get it do you? The time efficient killing machine has finally brought down to justice to please the vocal minority. What will you actually do with the counter when running survivals long enough or even 80-100+ enemy missions as now endless has returned with a different appearance. Will you be able to or like to take him to radiation sorties now with the new rework as this was one of the most shouted reasons to kill ash. It actually depends on how, when and to what extent you will use him. Usual regular missions wont bother a thing even if you dont run Bladestorm a single time.

Edited November 26, 2016 by AhmadIvu

[Dima19U]

Well the problem whit ash is that the 4 still borring, must be changed to make tour clons kill the enemies wile you can do other things. I love the improvments un the other habilities but 4 still needing this little change. Im the only who thinks this?

[WhyNotBro]

8 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

Ember most likely is safe because she was one of the first to be reworked. Equinox on the other hand has so many mechanics that she will of course get changed to be more of a risk than a reward.

Yeah, i know :D That was just a salt-soul-scream :D

I had 2 fav frames. Saryn and Ash. Yes, i used Saryn as a room-cleaner, but i think i had a right for it :D I am mr 22 with 3.5k hours in game with everything unlocked and sometimes i, honestly, don't want to have an asspain, so i would like to press 1 button and solve my problem. Ash...mostly i used 3rd skill to do dmg and ulty to clean an area fast when i was having dangerous situation ( like 5 bombards lvl 60 around me, we all understand this is a oneshot for any frame, so to survive this, i had to kill them asap). I am trying to say, yes they both had "press 4 to win" mechanics, however that was depending on player. I could kill enemies with my gun or ulty, that was my personal choice (and mostly i was choosing the gun way). But now...When i face hard situation all i can do is...to die.

 

Those 2 were my fav because of their look + survability + ability to do a lot of dmg in an area. I loved them as an universal choice for any type of mission. Now it is locked to me -_-

Edited November 26, 2016 by WhyNotBro

[IcedZea]

so the more i play with blade they more i hate honestly. this rework was promised to be balanced in one of the live streams a month or so back and to be honest this was a massive nerf. as far as i can tell you no longer do finisher dmg, a massive amount of energy to hit the same amount of target the old blade storm could for even less dmg, and ontop of it all it feels clunky. this should have never went live in it current form this is the ember nerf all over again watch it will be years before we see a fix for this like ember.

oh and lets not forget the person Rebecca outed on the live stream for having a legitimate question/concern about this rework.

SO what is the point of using bladestorm now when a soma can nuke everything faster? 

Edited November 26, 2016 by IcedZea
#salt

[K4r4k4s4]

You'd better nerf Banshi and Nova because they are making game boring. Not the Ash.

[Ombrenoirz]

Sorry, played LoL too much today :S Ash Ashe Ash :S

[Ombrenoirz]

4 minutes ago, AhmadIvu said:

Well you guys dont get it do you? The time efficient killing machine has finally brought down to justice to please the vocal minority. What will you actually do with the counter when running survivals long enough or even 80-100+ enemy missions as now endless has returned with a different appearance. Will you be able to or like to take him to radiation sorties now with the new rework as this was one of the most shouted reasons to kill ash. It actually depends on how, when and to what extent you will use him. Usual regular missions wont bother a thing even if you dont run Bladestorm a single time.

I know it's not a BIG OP MEGA change but it's a little plus that can be great. Especially during defense mission when ennemies comes on all sides.

[Issxi]

3 minutes ago, WhyNotBro said:

Yeah, i know :D That was just a salt-soul-scream :D

I had 2 fav frames. Saryn and Ash. Yes, i used Saryn as a room-cleaner, but i think i had a right for it :D I am mr 22 with 3.5k hours in game with everything unlocked and sometimes i, honestly, don't want to have an asspain, so i would like to press 1 button and solve my problem. Ash...mostly i used 3rd skill to do dmg and ulty to clean an area fast when i was having dangerous situation ( like 5 bombards lvl 60 around me, we all understand this is a oneshot for any frame, so to survive this, i had to kill them asap). I am trying to say, yes they both had "press 4 to win" mechanics, however that was depending on player. I could kill enemies with my gun or ulty, that was my personal choice (and mostly i was choosing the gun way). But now...When i face hard situation all i can do is...to die.

 

Those 2 were my fav because of their look + survability + ability to do a lot of dmg in an area. I loved them as an universal choice for any type of mission. Now it is locked to me -_-

You and I are as cheesy as it sounds, quite alike when it comes to Warframe. My Saryn rework pain will never go away, hopefully the Ash pain can lessen it's sting.

I will always use Saryn, her being my most favorite of the two, regardless of how bad she is. Even though my heart breaks when I can't survive 2 minutes in almost anything, she will always be my main. I just hope someday DE fixes the things they've broken for her, and everyone's mains (potentially).

[Varacal]

i know right?

 

"the problem with bladestorm was you just watch as you target one enemy and ash kills them automatically, now with the rework, you can now target multiple enemies and still watch ash kill them automatically"

this rework didnt do what it was set out to do

[Casval_Rouge]

And yes I don't like the new BS rework.  But no, not because he is not doing as much damage as before with as little effort as possible.  I don't like it because it didn't make the ability better to play, and therefore a waste of everyone's time, especially the poor guy(s) who had to program it.

I've already explain why the new BS is bad in the post below, so not going to do it here. 

This is about a rework of Ash, more specifically Shuriken and Blade Storm.

1st Power, Teleport - Teleport is now Ash's first power because it is both energy efficient and provides excellent utility and potential.  Nothing else is changed.

2nd is still Smoke Screen and unchanged.

3rd Blur - New power.  When toggled on, whenever Ash cast a power, he generates an afterimage that will absorb all incoming damage for 1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (unaffected by duration).  Enemies will also become unaware of Ash for the same duration.  It is effectively invisibility minus stealth damage bonus.  The power itself cost 25 to activate.  Each time you cast another power, an extra 25 energy will be drain.  If you only have enough energy for the power cast, then the power takes priority and afterimage will simply have no effect.  So if you cast Smoke Screen with Blur toggled on, you will lose 60 energy.  If you have less than 60 energy, then Smokescreen will still be cast, and you'll only lose 35 energy.

4th is Blade Storm - When you hold 4, a cone directly in front of Ash will begin to expand starting at 50m long and tall, 36 degree wide at the end of it.  As you hold the button down the angle of the cone expands at a rate of 36 degree every half a second.  Whenever you decide to release, Ash throws shurikens at up to 12/18/24/30 enemies, dealing slash damage with 100% status chance.  Then Ash and 5 shadow clones will attack all targets hit by a shuriken, splitting targets amongst themselves.  Each of them can only attack twice maximum.  Meaning the less targets there are, the more damage you can deal to each of them.  Bladestorm does not hinder Ash's movement and he can channel this targeting cone freely both on the ground and in the air.  On top of that, when used in the air,  Ash will gain infinite gliding energy until he releases the power.  Ash requires line of sight to hit targets with his shuriken.  The damage of the clones, shuriken, and Ash are the same from what they are now.  So they still build combos.  Both Shuriken augment and Blade Storm's augment will work with this and no design changes needed, just some coding work.  Cost 100 energy.  Blur will trigger on press of 4, not on release.

 

To explain a bit.  Blur is a powerful defensive power that requires action from the player, unlike Iron Skin and Shatter Shield and you name it.  And when you cast a power like Teleport, Blur will effectively give Ash 2.5 seconds of invulnerability.  On top of that it will also work for stealth purposes because as long as you are casting powers, enemies cannot see Ash.  What this means is, rather than trying to keep casting Smoke Screen to maintain invisible up time to survive or stay in stealth, (a power that isn't merely invisibility yet it is often only used for that purposes) you can now freely time when you use Smoke Screen to maximize the stun component as well.  If combo and chain along with Teleport, Blur can give Ash incredible damage mitigation, or avoidance to be precise, which is the point.  This is about avoiding damage as a ninja without relying on CC or boring "up time" powers like Iron Skin, Vex Armor, Turbulence, etc.  This requires action.  But because of that, it also has the potential to be far more powerful and therefore more rewarding when done right.

This new Bladestorm is what in my opinion what the rework should have been.  DE want more input from players?  Give them tactical reasons to do so.  This rework gives Ash the power to control whether he wants AOE or high value target elimination.  And all of this can be done simply by holding down 4 and aiming in the general direction of the enemies.  Because the cone continues to expand, it will only get easier and easier to target more enemies if you need the AOE.  Furthermore, if used with the Seeking Shuriken, you can now reduce a massive amount of enemies armor.  Now you probably won't need the debuff if you don't plan on using BS as big AOE, but just focused damage.  But that's the beauty of it.  Because the damage is spread when there are many targets, the augment then changes BS into an AOE debuff power.  Which then mitigate the downside of too many targets.  And further more this might also mean Corrosive Projection is not as important to have on high levels.  Lastly this system is much better than marking targets with your cursor because you need to aim your guns with your cursor.  This allows you to shoot and still acquire targets in front and around you.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Casval_Rouge

[megastorm]

I would be fine if they reworked the armor debuff mod and made it innate. Or just give us 2 more mod slots to work with. The later is more reasonable.

 

Edited: If anything I think the syndicate mod for teleport is a little redundant with bladestorm. But for some reason I don't want them to take that away.

Edited November 26, 2016 by megastorm

[WhyNotBro]

1 minute ago, Xylyssa said:

You and I are as cheesy as it sounds, quite alike when it comes to Warframe. My Saryn rework pain will never go away, hopefully the Ash pain can lessen it's sting.

I will always use Saryn, her being my most favorite of the two, regardless of how bad she is. Even though my heart breaks when I can't survive 2 minutes in almost anything, she will always be my main. I just hope someday DE fixes the things they've broken for her, and everyone's mains (potentially).

I feel your pain, bro :D
About cheesy...i think this is just a logical, completely natural thing. I am pretty sure, this is an issue of the very game mechanic.

Let's be fair, when dozens of infested running to me, what exactly i should do? Shoot them with something like boltor or soma? Takes ages. Use melee? Yeah this is an option, but they can kill me faster than i kill em. So, what else i can do? Use invis and hide myself? But this doesn't solve the problem, enemies still there waiting for my &#!. Run away? Same scenario as invis. So, maybe i can press 4 and kill them all? Sounds good! 

When i reached everything i could in this game, saw thousands of times all enemies and locations, and for example, there is an Nitain exterminate alert...i don't have a right to want to finish the mission as fast as it possible? I think i have a right to do so!

The only thing needs changing / reworking is the main gameplay mechanic.

DE gave you a grenade launcher against an army standing in front of you, what will you do? I think every mentally healty person would like to win the battle with less efforts and time, am i wrong?:D And then, when you came closer with your grenade launcer to wipe the army, they took it away and gave you a stick instead, what will you feel?:D

[kleerr2]

35 minutes ago, WhyNotBro said:

i'm thinking...only 2 aoe dps frames left (Ember and Equinox), so...how long we should wait for their "rework"? Let's clean all frames who can kill enemies in area, we are not playing fast-phased game with tonns of enemies all over the player, right?

CC >>> Damage. So they have alot of work to do...

[GTX49]

You want a feedback, here's a goddamn feedback:

- the annoying cutscene thing is still there.

- marking every enemy is really slow, if there are a lot of enemies. Considering marking the same enemy 3 times if it's a high lvl one.

- by the time ash finishes marking, squad members would have already killed everything. It's still not teamplay friendly as this will encourage players even more to play ash in solo mode.

- marking a lot of enemies opens ash to hell fire of bullets, so every time he wanna mark any high lvl group of enemies he would easily die because you are forced to stand in open fire and to to mark enemies not once but 3 times.

- the energy drain is plain too much.

Edited November 26, 2016 by GTX49

[MokutoBunshi]

Played the rework all day and as Mogamu said: What does this solve?

 

]\'[

[TalonKitsune]

I doubt my words could possibly be heard among so many voices, but I've been around a really long time, I've risen in rank, mastered nearly every weapon in the game, so maybe just maybe these words might carry a little weight.

"Please reduce the energy costs on Mesa and Ash. They are just too high to be fun any more."

 

P.S. "Please make it so Mesa can walk while shooting to leave us at least a little gun-kata awesomeness back?"

[Circle_of_Psi]

Readed into it and while we can all share our own opinions, all well and good, this just makes ash back to the Press 4 To Win. 

I main Ash and this combines the Armor stripping Augment mod, with OP bladestrom, to make an even MORE OP press 4 to win. So sorry, but not happing. On top of that your giving Ash a power he does not need, if you find yourself dying quickly, then people just need to mod him correctly. Both powers you desirableness here does not fit Ash and will make him more OP.

 

What confuses me is, Why do players demand Power Creep?, Yet when they get it, they complain its too much?, its so confusing

 

 

But all in all, Ash's Bladestrom is great (Not perfect) but good for a right-start, if they just removed the fact, the targets effected by Bladestrom are unkillable by other players, then people will like Ash. (Besides The press 4 to wins) 

Oh and perhas made Ash's Augments, part of his powers, and give him new ones

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by LegionCynex