Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Yaerion]

3 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

-

Siphoned within: 

 

[DEATHLOK]

51 minutes ago, CAM237 said:

TBH, I hate having clones running around doing all the killing. It sort of defeats the purpose of having a badass Ninja warframe if someone else is always doing all the killing.

No different than any other Warframe using AoE to kill enemies the player cannot even see. Not an argument well thought through.

[Oleoay]

Not sure I understand why the fast Ash now has an ultimate that fires off slowly because you have to click targets. I don't think any other ultimate really does that. I'd wager quite a few players either stealh before ultiing or die trying to click three targets (before those three targets die).

[Tigercloud]

Here's what the Ash rework NEEDS:

A targeting system where every time you put your mouse over an enemy, a big RED TARGETING CROSSHAIRS surrounds the enemy, then reduces in size as it zooms in on the target. (Anyone who's played anime-style mecha games where you launch tons of missiles will know what I mean) One red triangle appears on the upper left side of the targeting reticle. For each additional mark, you get another red triangle, on the upper right side, and on the top.

Increase speed of the initial, no-control animation by 50%.

Reduce the energy cost of Bladestorm to 7/5.

Allow us to cast Smokescreen mid-Bladestorm.

Do this DE, and I will play Ash ALL THE GODDAMN TIME

[ImagoMortis]

Well, ash is more fun to play but with no survability at all. Could mark a number of enemies, in a small radius, when use skill 2, could mark with skill 1 or could have a augment when everytime a enemy is killed by the teleport + finish, the enemies around it would be marked. This last doesnt change to much because if you leave the 4 on and press 3, the enemies will be mark, but only what is in front of ash. This could be interesting to make people use skill 3 even more.

[Hypernaut1]

people keep saying they got rid of the clones...thats not true. They are still there, but i think they are only used for the extra marks on a target. His kill animation has slowed down, they need to speed it up.

my feedback:

1. Ability is a bit more "fun" to use but its slower. I cant cruise my way to most kills anymore. BS is much more deliberate now. It feels more like an attack than just a nuke button. i do kind of like it. Its definitely a nerf though.

pros:   I can target 2 different areas at same time now. 2 sides of a defense object, kill enemies surrounding 2 different teammates, etc. 

            I can run around in BS mode, attacking, teleporting and using BS to clean up at the end. It feels good when i get a rhythm going. I feel like my                 orientation is a bit better too because of the way i mark before executing. i think this was DEs goal. Old Ash pretty much checked out when                   it was time to spam 4. The new BS feels a bit more like a decision to kill than a panic nuke.

            Targeting isnt as clunky as i feared. Its pretty easy to sweep and mark most targets and the targeting area feels generous. 

            When invisible, Ash looks cool as a dark smoke cloud. 

 

Cons:   BS is much slower now. The animations are slower, and the time it takes to mark a group of enemies. Ash doesnt kill mobs of enemies as                    fast now. 

             Targeting is smooth when it works, but unfortunately it doesn't feel 100% reliable. especially when trying to mark a target multiple times.

              The camera wiggle you need to do to now to mark a crowd. Its just weird for WF gameplay. I'm getting use to it now though, i just dont                      know if it will wear on me in time.

             Sometimes its hard to tell when youre in BS mode. Sometimes pressing 4 doesnt respond as well (due to locked animations maybe) and                      wont activate.

 

My suggestions

1. Add more synergy with BS mode. Turn shurikens into clones while in BS. Let us run around and toss out clones to kill as an option. Increase cost of 1, or lower damage to compensate. 

2. Speed up BS kill animations PLEASE! and use more clones to do Ash's dirty work. while i like the cutscene and want it to stay, after a few kills, i get the point already and wouldn't mind seeing clones doing more work for me even for enemies not marked multiple times. Ideally Ash should only be involved in every 3rd kill or so. Marking six enemies should be 2-3 scenes, the rest will be clones.

3. Smarter marking. If an enemy is tanky, it should triple mark a bit faster without needing to wiggle wildly over the enemy. 

             

           

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[RistN]

Just one thing bugged me in all of DE 's decisions when doing some change...Why always making things complicated when there are a lot simple solutions?If they wanted to nerf BS why not leave it as it is and decrease number of enemies killed to let say 8 instead of 18 or make some melee mods like Body count not affecting BS so players wouldn't kill everything with just intensify on or change effect range to only affect enemies in sight(like Mirage Prism change ).....

It's easy to tweak some numbers instead of making all toghether new ability that not all may like..

[Cubewano]

Just going to note, the new targeting for Bladestorm feels super clunky and out of place, like seriously, nothing kills the flow of combat like a skill that requires you to suddenly sweep your reticle wildly across the screen for a moment. (and don't say i should be more specific on my targeting, because it that's the case why wouldn't i just use fatal teleport or shoot said target instead, seeing as they have the same requirements but are more effective)

As someone who was no fan of the old Bladestorm, this change managed to make it even less appealing. 

[Aquifn]

This is only about the new Bladestorm.

6 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting.

 

What Changed:

• Bladestorm now requires holding down 4 to target things. Things must be visible, and able to be targeted.
• The above directly results in a loss of output from the skill, as it no longer simply targets everything around the main target. We got zero return for this nerf.
• I can move while holding 4, but have you ever actually tried doing that? Its beyond frustrating.

 

The Bad:

• Feels horrible holding down four while trying desperately to target enough targets to make the hassle worth it.
• Direct nerf to output.
• Wasting multiple marks on small targets, while missing large targets behind them entirely.
• Being knocked down mid-mark, forcing you to go on what you have, because you can't start marking again.
• Doing a mark sweep, letting go to shoot something, and then seeing another large group and wanting to mark them before we go but being unable to.
• Actually using the skill, as the player, FEELS TERRIBLE. Its just beyond frustrating to know that you're going to do less, for no gain compared to before.
• Dying while trying to mark enough targets to make it worth while, because moving while holding 4 is annoying, frustrating, and going to get you murdered.
• Rising Storm Augment is now worthless.
• New ..?minigame? that's ultra frustrating to enter the same old cinematic.
• The stated issue was not changed at all.

The Good:

• Possibly cheaper energy costs? Math guys will have to figure that out.
• ????

 

Feedback:

My biggest issue by far, is that you didn't address your stated issue. Like, at all. You still have to go through the entire animation issue. Personally, I didn't mind this, but I can understand it being something you wanted to change. But you didn't. It doesn't even feel play tested by someone who actually regularly used Ash. You just made Bladestorm worse. In almost every regard:

• Activating it feels way worse.
• Ignores stated issue
• Damage loss
• Forces Smokescreen used to keep you alive while you target things in high level.
• Makes playing the suit more frustrating for zero return.

 

Things You Could Have Done:

• Bladestorm turns you invis, you then target someone and press E, teleporting to them and instantly performing a finisher. This ability lasts X seconds as long as you kill within X seconds. Example: Lasts 30 seconds so long as you get a kill within 5 seconds of last kill.
• Made it a channeled ability, with two clones of Ash going apeS****; on the battlefield while you continue to use other abilities. Tune the damage down for that, as you have access to other things, but still far better then the current situation.
• Allowed allies to kill red targets.
• Make copies of his current equipped weapon spring up around him, automatically reaching to backstab anything in range for the duration.
• Simply made his current bladestorm able to be canceled and left it as is.

 

 

I loved Ash before this, his bladestorm offered a unique interaction found nowhere else in the game. It could be a touch boring, but it wasn't painful to use. It has its perks. You could get out of a terrible situation and buy time, by pressing 4 quickly. You could allies across the map by quickly pressing 4 to kill things around them, while they rezzed a downed ally. It was quick, responsive, and useful. The new version, makes Ash unplayable for a simple reason:

Ash is now frustrating to get a full return out of, and not fun to play. You know your'e sitting on a bunch of power, but every time you go to use it, you're forced into a unrequired, stupid mini-game that does NOT go well with Warframe. Warframe is a fast paced, on the move, slaughterhouse. When you're forced to stop doing everything to try and target the mad-house going on around you, its not fun. Its not simple, its not easy, and its not rewarding.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Aquifn

[TaintedGhost]

3 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Just going to note, the new targeting for Bladestorm feels super clunky and out of place, like seriously, nothing kills the flow of combat like a skill that requires you to suddenly sweep your reticle wildly across the screen for a moment. (and don't say i should be more specific on my targeting, because it that's the case why wouldn't i just use fatal teleport or shoot said target instead, seeing as they have the same requirements but are more effective)

As someone who was no fan of the old Bladestorm, this change managed to make it even less appealing. 

true

[Yaerion]

2 minutes ago, Aquifn said:

This is only about the new Bladestorm.

 

Teleported within: 

 

[------X------]

Just played ash revised so the feedback:
2. Smoke screen - cool, thank you! As many mentioned here would be nice to recast it while active.
3. Teleport - never understood why teleport teleports ash inside the warframe cryopod in defense missions. Now it will teleport to the nearest ferrite deposit. He should fight right?
4. Blade storm - minigame [3 then 4 then pick targets and then 4 again] is nice, however not for shooter/not when overwhelmed by enemies. As well as it absolutely invalidates Rising storm augment (it usually resets while you're picking the another batch of targets, yeah I know need to dash 4 all the time...).

As an option I would leave automatic targeting but maybe each target would cost 10-5 energy?

The minigame - I'm sure there is a way to adopt it to something else.

To me ash lost its uniqueness with this update, looks just like another variant of loki.
Hope he will get it back.

-- edit --
Just got into energy reduction mission - max energy 75, no 4th skill at all :)

Edited November 26, 2016 by ------X------
updated feedback with new experience

[xVenom.]

I guess Bladestorm spam isn't possible anymore.

I use the new Ash (like the old one btw) with duration, neutral range, 170 % efficiency, a bit of Strength and Vitality/Rage.

It's a melee focused build : I mostly rely on my smoke screen to increase the damage dealt by my sword and escape from danger in close combat. This new animation is awesome.

I use Bladestorm too. Like a sniper. To kill some groups of enemies far away from me. And his 3th for VIP target. I love it.

Now I really feel I'm playing with a ninja. A deadly bloody killer, with slash procs all the way!

Thank you DE.

[UvBenServed]

Random Smoke Screen idea:

Killing enemies with finishers (the actual animation, not just finishing damage) will increase the duration of smoke screen up to a cap, similar to how Valkyr's eternal war augment mod works.

[RoniLumen]

I'm partly glad for the rework, it was really boring to Bladestorm sortie missions and ridiculous to see people bladestroming low lvl missions.

I just don't find the new feature a feature, it is more like an obstacle .

When they presented this rework, my suggestion was to make Bladestorm a "state" like Valkyr's hysteria:
Target one enemy then activate, show ash doing the kill while the player can aim the next target or group of targets in 3 seconds.
Target effect should be similar to codex scanner, Ash only see red silhouettes and can target them through walls, until it is in range.

[SemperSupra]

My former favorite frame is now ruined. Gee thanks.

[Krius]

Think the energy cost is too high even with max efficiency it's 3.5 per mark, For 18 enemies we need to spend 63 energy while Ember gets away with her 4 with only 0.75 energy per second when you use max efficiency and you can even use Firequake augment for crowd control. Wonder how much fun does other players have when Ember is on their team killing everything before they arrive. I know that it only works on low level mission but really Ash Bladestorm is not really effective too when you are doing higher level mission

Edited November 26, 2016 by Krius

[Arcira]

hm.. bladestorm changes are nice but personally I miss some more immersive changes to his kit.. smoke screen is still a simple invisible ability instead of an actual "smoke screen" and teleport is far to similar to blade storm in my opinion.

Shuriken are okayish I geuss. Not everything has to be super special but honestly if I want to throw shuriken I would use hikou.. 

[SDGDen]

29 minutes ago, Aquifn said:

This is only about the new Bladestorm.

 

What Changed:

• Bladestorm now requires holding down 4 to target things. Things must be visible, and able to be targeted.
• The above directly results in a loss of output from the skill, as it no longer simply targets everything around the main target. We got zero return for this nerf.
• I can move while holding 4, but have you ever actually tried doing that? Its beyond frustrating.

 

The Bad:

• Feels horrible holding down four while trying desperately to target enough targets to make the hassle worth it.
• Direct nerf to output.
• Wasting multiple marks on small targets, while missing large targets behind them entirely.
• Being knocked down mid-mark, forcing you to go on what you have, because you can't start marking again.
• Doing a mark sweep, letting go to shoot something, and then seeing another large group and wanting to mark them before we go but being unable to.
• Actually using the skill, as the player, FEELS TERRIBLE. Its just beyond frustrating to know that you're going to do less, for no gain compared to before.
• Dying while trying to mark enough targets to make it worth while, because moving while holding 4 is annoying, frustrating, and going to get you murdered.
• Rising Storm Augment is now worthless.
• New ..?minigame? that's ultra frustrating to enter the same old cinematic.
• The stated issue was not changed at all.

The Good:

• Possibly cheaper energy costs? Math guys will have to figure that out.
• ????

 

Feedback:

My biggest issue by far, is that you didn't address your stated issue. Like, at all. You still have to go through the entire animation issue. Personally, I didn't mind this, but I can understand it being something you wanted to change. But you didn't. It doesn't even feel play tested by someone who actually regularly used Ash. You just made Bladestorm worse. In almost every regard:

• Activating it feels way worse.
• Ignores stated issue
• Damage loss
• Forces Smokescreen used to keep you alive while you target things in high level.
• Makes playing the suit more frustrating for zero return.

 

Things You Could Have Done:

• Bladestorm turns you invis, you then target someone and press E, teleporting to them and instantly performing a finisher. This ability lasts X seconds as long as you kill within X seconds. Example: Lasts 30 seconds so long as you get a kill within 5 seconds of last kill.
• Made it a channeled ability, with two clones of Ash going apeS****; on the battlefield while you continue to use other abilities. Tune the damage down for that, as you have access to other things, but still far better then the current situation.
• Allowed allies to kill red targets.
• Make copies of his current equipped weapon spring up around him, automatically reaching to backstab anything in range for the duration.
• Simply made his current bladestorm able to be canceled and left it as is.

 

 

I loved Ash before this, his bladestorm offered a unique interaction found nowhere else in the game. It could be a touch boring, but it wasn't painful to use. It has its perks. You could get out of a terrible situation and buy time, by pressing 4 quickly. You could allies across the map by quickly pressing 4 to kill things around them, while they rezzed a downed ally. It was quick, responsive, and useful. The new version, makes Ash unplayable for a simple reason:

Ash is now frustrating to get a full return out of, and not fun to play. You know your'e sitting on a bunch of power, but every time you go to use it, you're forced into a unrequired, stupid mini-game that does NOT go well with Warframe. Warframe is a fast paced, on the move, slaughterhouse. When you're forced to stop doing everything to try and target the mad-house going on around you, its not fun. Its not simple, its not easy, and its not rewarding.

uhm dude.... you may want to read up on bladestorm. its click to start marking, click again to execute.

most of your complaints are about the holding down.

 

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[Azamagon]

Alright, tested him out a fair bit.

Overall, I'm re-enjoying playing Ash again :) Was more fun and engaging using him in the Sorties now.

Shuriken

This is the only ability that feels truly redundant in his kit now. I'll propose a few things for it:
1) Throws a 3rd Shuriken as well, but this 3rd one goes straight where you aim, and it has punchthrough (punchthrough distance modifiable by Power Range)
2) All enemies struck are staggered and marked for Bladestorm (with shadow clone attacks, not by Ash himself)
3) Each enemy hit adds +1 to the melee combo counter, and the Shuriken damage benefits from the melee combo counter too

Smoke Screen

Love it! Amazing change to it.
Small changes I'd add though:
* Enemies staggered by the cast also lose accuracy for a few seconds (accuracyloss potency modifiable by P.Strength, duration by P.Duration)
* Augment: Make it leave a lingering cloud behind, which allies can walk through to gain the invis (enemies going through get the accuracy-loss constantly refreshed on them)

Teleport

Needs more variety in it. An idea would be:

* Tapcast = Current teleport
* Holdcast = Freeaim teleport. If you land on a wall, you will autocling to the wall with X bonus cling-duration (modifiable by P.Duration) (Note: Just tap aim to let go)
Potentially, the targetted teleport could be removed entirely (then make it so he causes an AoE-effect where he lands, which opens enemies up for finishers, and potentially could mark all of them for Bladestorm too. AoE radius affected by P.Range)

Bladestorm

Just reduce the cost per mark to 10 at all times. Forcing synergy is always dull, imo. The natural synergy between Smoke Screen and Bladestorm is enough. Other than that, I see no problem with current Bladestorm, really.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Azamagon

[lLegion]

Its just NEEDS to be remade, it needs to give Ash the power to be Shadow itself. A Ninja needs to be quick and lethal, Ash's old Ultimate gave him that, but if you want it to be more interesting, you can just make it as a State like Nekros new Desecrate, this way you could teleport to any enemy you want, do the animation, sending clones to the 2 nerby enemies to the target doing the same and done, that would make the Ultimate the same way it used to work, but YOU would be the one controlling Ash while using it, not to mention that we could have buffs while on that "State", like Dodge Chance since he's literaly covered in Shadows, or even more speed or movement speed, to give the feel of a real Ninja.

[SDGDen]

15 minutes ago, kreep2.0 said:

My former favorite frame is now ruined. Gee thanks.

so you are mad at having to have more skill?

[Aquifn]

3 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

uhm dude.... you may want to read up on bladestorm. its click to start marking, click again to execute.

most of your complaints are about the holding down.

 

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Single targeting dozens of things in a faced paced shooter isn't realistic. But thanks for the feedback

[SDGDen]

7 minutes ago, Aquifn said:

Single targeting dozens of things in a faced paced shooter isn't realistic. But thanks for the feedback

sigh.... singletarget? again dude. READ. UP. you press once. and it activates the ability in mark mode. a little like a drain based ability. but without a drain. then when you press the button again. it will lock in those marks and bladestorm them.

so it went from:

press 4.

to

press 4

look at important enemies that must die

press 4 again

here ya go. stop yer whining

[NyxCrab]

So far I'm really enjoying the changes. It makes Ash not so boring to play, his invis is actually usable now, and his bladestorm still feels strong but isn't as boring to use. Still wish he got a different 4th, and his shuriken got a buff in some way, but overall I actually enjoy playing Ash now.

5 minutes ago, Aquifn said:

Single targeting dozens of things in a faced paced shooter isn't realistic. But thanks for the feedback

It's not single targeting. You press 4, mouse over all the enemies you want to kill, they get marked, you press 4 again, and you activate bladestorm and kill them all.

Edited November 26, 2016 by NyxCrab