Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

The clones did so much damage no enemy survived, not to mention they made them even more effective with the introduction of passives. Nothing survived and it made him way too much of a kill hog and very anti-group play.

 

BTW Hydroid would like a word with you about CC abilities being overpowered.

Clones kills can be capped. 

And Hydroid ? yeah good luck marking those enemies with ash during Hydroid's CC abilities. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[kleerr2]

People that don't/won't play Ash be like: "BladeStorm is perfect now! Thank you DE!''. I can't even...

[kyori]

I think people just want and expect bladestorm to be like nova's molecular prime etc which power can let allies kill enemies easily.... 

That is what they meant by not being anti-group play.

[Issxi]

In the end you'll all get over it like us Saryn mains did when DE took a hatchet to her. Just take it on the chin and move on. If he is your favorite frame you will always find a reason to use him.

[WhyNotBro]

1st skill - still the same
2nd skill - now can use in air, but still the same
3rd skill - now can be casted on things with hp bar, but still the same
4th skill - lower cast speed, higher energy cost, less targets, still watching the cutscene where my frame is doing all job and i guess i noticed damage became even less than before ( i couldn't kill 60 lvl guy with 1 hit, in old times i could oneshot lvl 100)

Well, i can not call it "rework".  In my opinion this is a nerf, because all skills remain the same, but the most powerfull skill became less effective. I dont know....feels like a nerf, not a rework. Shame and dissapointment.

Edited November 26, 2016 by WhyNotBro

[Issxi]

Just now, WhyNotBro said:

1st skill - still the same
2nd skill - now can use in air, but still the same
3rd skill - now can be casted on things with hp bar, but still the same
4th skill - lower cast speed, higher energy cost, less targets, still watching the cutscene where my frame is doing all job and i guess i noticed damage became even less than before ( i couldn't kill 60 lvl guy with 1 hit, in old times i could oneshot lvl 100)

Well, i can not call it "rework".  In my opinion this is a nerf, because all skill remain the ame, only the most powerfull skill became less effective. I dont know....feels like a nerf, not a rework. Shame and dissapointment.

They called it a Bladestorm Rework, not an Ash Rework, fyi.

[Xekrin]

Why does everyone think their feedback is much more relevant and important than others and simply must have its own thread?

Already sent a request for this to be merged into the megathread.

[Rain3ternal]

4 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

They called it a Bladestorm Rework, not an Ash Rework, fyi.

Calling it a bladestorm rework was nullified when they changed functions of the other abilities to some extent. So yeah, it is an Ash rework, it's just a terrible one. 

[WhyNotBro]

2 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

They called it a Bladestorm Rework, not an Ash Rework, fyi.

Does this fact change something?:D
I can re-write my words, not a big deal :p

Well, i can not call it "bladestorm rework". In my opinion this is a nerf, because it takes more energy per enemy, takes more time to cast it, deals less damage ( i guess, not sure) and doesnt solve the main issue - invulnerable targets for allies and that ulty animation which is just a short movie.

Better now, Sir?

[WhyNotBro]

7 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

They called it a Bladestorm Rework, not an Ash Rework, fyi.

 

2 minutes ago, Rain3ternal said:

Calling it a bladestorm rework was nullified when they changed functions of the other abilities to some extent. So yeah, it is an Ash rework, it's just a terrible one. 

Bro has a point here :p

[Rain3ternal]

1 minute ago, WhyNotBro said:

Does this fact change something?:D
I can re-write my words, not a big deal :p

Well, i can not call it "bladestorm rework". In my opinion this is a nerf, because it takes more energy per enemy, takes more time to cast it, deals less damage ( i guess, not sure) and doesnt solve the main issue - invulnerable targets for allies and that ulty animation which is just a short movie.

Better now, Sir?

Not to mention that everything will be dead because your team rushed in and killed everything long before you could properly tag it.

 

[TaintedGhost]

I don't think it's useful to change the skill itself, as it will again cause balancing issues.
 Exspecially since it took alot of work and time to create those animations, just as they are loved by a part of the community.

Also, i don't want it to become a spammable press 4 2 win button again. The name Bladestorm is well placed and i'd like to keep it that way.

But as it changed now and in comparison to other warframes ultimates and his own other abilities, i can't see it beeing worth to hit an "Ultimate" skill.

Sadly and that might cause the main trouble in this game is the playerbase which is from time to time focusing on efficiency and speed, but also the Damagetables. And i respect that - when i had done the same mission 100x times a row i dont bother myself to just keep running throu just getting to the mission spot and turning it in asap. Having a damagetable in the End will also encourage me to hit the top of all players making my warframe the most-efficent of all. I've seen that in other games and it is always the same. Exspecially tho in PvE-Situations, where one "should" work as a team it is from my point of view not necessary to show a dmg-table in any way, as the winning situation should be done by the team and not certain players. It might be nice if there was something like "roles" (tank/dd/support/cc) in warframe , but there is not as some warframes have been suggested by the playerbase, developed by the devs and thus it is at the playerbase again to try and work out certain builds which work best in certain situations or maps. And in the end as it is an action-shooter it will go back to the dmg-table because: The faster an enemy is dead the less harm it deals... And the more experienced players will less likely need a support or tank as all frames can particularly fill in all those roles depending on the mods he/she chooses.

That beeing said it might be more useful to adjust skill as an more teammate-friendly skill that probably just hops from enemy to enemy within a certain area. not making it a kill on hit but rather good debuff on press 4 like some other warframes have. This would not fix the issue of the animation not being cancelable tho.

In my mind it could work out like the shuriken-augment, reducing the defences of enemys- maybe taking the strongest first, high-lighting them for other players so they know that theres an easy kill. and if ppl bother about the dmg in early or lategamecontent, it could be a % of the maximum health of the unit being increasable by power strenght.

Another wish that i still have for ash is the point to have a use in increasing his power-duration, which could simply determine the duration of the debuff on the targets.

I tried several builds... extended the power-duration and stopped using (or just in rare cases when knowing no other players are around or they have a hard time to deal with certain enemies) the 4 at all. Currently i feel like a single-target-dd with an support-ability to revive downed players. But Loki could do pretty much the same.

Thanks for the time,

Xankjeli

 

Also if, the press 4 2 win button is a common issue simply but a Cooldown on them. They are Ultimate attacks leave them as that, but make them less spamable... ppl should choose wisely when to use it. Or have it a max. amount per mission... just some thoughts.

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by BattlemageXankjeli
Forgotten Idea:

[Issxi]

2 minutes ago, Rain3ternal said:

Not to mention that everything will be dead because your team rushed in and killed everything long before you could properly tag it.

 

Is this not what pre-rework Ash players were doing to their entire teams beforehand? Why is it a bad thing NOW?

Edited November 26, 2016 by Xylyssa

[Rain3ternal]

1 minute ago, Xylyssa said:

Is this not what pre-rework Ash players were doing to their entire teams beforehand?

No. Thanks for grouping every person who's ever mained ash into a singular entity. It's fine when Mirage or any other frame of that nature nukes a room, but frames like Saryn and Ash have been reworked to basically make their ultimate abilities useless. Not from a damage perspective, but from a mechanical one. I don't have time to use 4 if I'm playing a game with other players. That's the glaring problem with this. 

 

[Issxi]

7 minutes ago, Rain3ternal said:

No. Thanks for grouping every person who's ever mained ash into a singular entity. It's fine when Mirage or any other frame of that nature nukes a room, but frames like Saryn and Ash have been reworked to basically make their ultimate abilities useless. Not from a damage perspective, but from a mechanical one. I don't have time to use 4 if I'm playing a game with other players. That's the glaring problem with this. 

 

I didn't group all Ash players together or else I would've used words such as 'all' or 'ever' so take a seat and calm down. I don't think it is alright for any frame to be able to nuke a room and as a Saryn main I've experienced this dissappointment long before you did so don't try to point the problem out to me.

Yes pre-rework Ash was a one-trick pony like most Press 4 to Win frames are/were.

Yes his rework made him terrible at his job.

DE's trek on ultimate reworks is to remove the easy-mode of Press 4 to Win and with this they succeeded. The unfortunate thing is they made Ash as bad as Saryn and now they will seldom be seen because of it.

I understand the plight of you Ash lovers, really I do. That doesn't change the fact that regardless he needed to change just as Saryn did. I hope for your sakes DE actually listens to your feedback about his rework and change it and in all honesty they probably will because Ash is such an edgelord favorite amongst the playerbase. I wish I could say Saryn was popular enough to be looked at again but she isn't so go to the corner and watch DE fix Ash to be playable while me and other Saryn mains buff out the bullet holes on our Saryns and shelf her for the next day's beatings.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Xylyssa

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

2 hours ago, frohdoe said:

I did some testing in the Simulacrum and it turns out that while Steel Charge does affect the damage of Bladestorm, the Coaction Drift has no effect on it whatsoever. It seems like a bug to me, cause it should increase the Aura strength and it does nothing.

Trickery works in normal missions, i ran a quick test capture  on sedna and it procced just fine, for some reasons though it doesn't seem to proc in the simulacrum

[WhyNotBro]

5 minutes ago, Rain3ternal said:

frames like Saryn and Ash have been reworked to basically make their ultimate abilities useless. Not from a damage perspective, but from a mechanical one. I don't have time to use 4 if I'm playing a game with other players. That's the glaring problem with this. 

Totally agree. In game, where we deal with hundreds of enemies from all directions atacking you, we need something to wipe entire room in emergency case. Now we don't have it. To do this with Saryn, i have to cast like 2-3 times all buttons, before i actually can kill something with ulty. With Ash now...well, i can kill enemies which i see right now ( and it takes precious time), but the thing is...i can kill them with my gun. It is faster and costs me nothing.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

24 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

In the end you'll all get over it like us Saryn mains did when DE took a hatchet to her. Just take it on the chin and move on. If he is your favorite frame you will always find a reason to use him.

Sayrn still has CC, and is still vary good in synerging all her abilities  in High lvl missions. Ash is not. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[KoinStar]

Rework Feedback:

After playing the new Ash, I have to say, it left more to be desired. Shuriken wasn't even touched, Smoke Screen and Teleport were given slight QoL changes, and Bladestorm just became a 2-step process. The uncancel-able animations are still there (one of the problems with Bladestorm, like getting caught on an ancient, not being able to revive the rescue target, etc.), enemies are still invincible in the animation (one of the main problems), its still redundant with Teleport/Fatal Teleport, and trying to mark an enemy in a group ends up marking the entire group. Overall, Bladestorm is still pretty boring. I would propose each ability to get looked at for a more in-depth rework.

Shuriken is pretty simple, so I would suggest adding more to it. I propose that tapping 1 would throw out a fan of (non-homing) shuriken, and holding it would send Ash into a lock-on mode (like current Bladestorm) and when you release, it sends out homing shuriken (like it does now); you would be able to lock on to an enemy multiple times. This would give the player a few more options to play with, and allow them to target specific enemies. Damage would scale with Strength, and possibly the amount of shuriken you can throw would scale with Duration (like how Nova's Null Star works; I'm just attempting to have more stats matter, this isn't required). An augment would replace the homing shuriken with one large non-homing shuriken that deals more damage, but just shoots straight. Also, an idea that I like is to have consecutive casts cost less (like Slash Dash and Landslide).

For Smoke Screen, I would suggest changing it from an invisibility power (which we have 3 of total, 4 if you count Invisibility Arrow, and it is really similar to Loki's) to an actual Smoke Screen. Ash would throw down a smoke bomb, leaving an area of smoke. There would still be a stagger of whoever is caught in the initial blast. Enemies inside would be blind and wander towards noise, and shoot at noise (including their allies). Ash and friends would be able to see the outlines of the enemies, so they could take advantage of the confusion by either escaping, or assassinating them. This gives the ability some CC and makes it more team-friendly. The duration of the initial stagger would scale with Strength, the duration of the smoke itself would scale with Duration, and the range of the smoke would of course scale with Range. An augment idea for it, for people who want the invisibility, would be to give Ash and friends invisibility when they leave the smoke (it lingers on them). This would combine the new ability and current augment. Another augment idea would be for their to be lingering smoke on Ash and co., but instead of turning them invisible, it blinds nearby enemies (the smoke gets in their eyes).

For Teleport, I wouldn't change anything, just add to it. I would add a combo counter that reduces cost on consecutive casts (like Ripline, and the above mentioned abilities). This would allow multiple consecutive teleports at a low cost, allowing players more mobility, and allowing them to manually simulate Bladestorm. This would especially work with Fatal Teleport. For people who like the cinematic kills, Fatal Teleport could do them. The reason I mention this is because, as I said before, it's redundant having both Teleport and Bladestorm; Bladestorm is a less interactive Teleport, and I'd rather retain Teleport.

So, I think a new 4th ability should be made, that's not based on one of his other abilities. It could be anything, but of course I'll give my own suggestion.

Since some unique parts of Bladestorm are the Clones Ash summons and the wrist blades, I would suggest an ability that integrates those, but again, it could be something new. The common idea is that Ash would summon Clones to help him fight, and they could use any of his other 3 abilities, but would be restricted to the wrist blades.

There are many ways to go about this, so I'll offer some different options.

This ability could be channeled or duration-based.

The clones could scale with Ash's melee mods. 

Just the clones could be restricted to the wrist blades, or Ash could be as well.

The amount of clones could be changeable, or restricted to a set number (like 2).

There are 2 different types of the clones' movements, and of those 2, 2 different options they could follow. They could either loosely follow Ash (not like Hall of Mirrors; more loose) or wander freely like Specters. And, they could either only cast abilities when Ash casts them (allowing some degree of control as to where and when they cast) or cast them freely.

So, those are my ideas for an Ash rework. I'm not terribly attached to the 4th, I just wanted to integrate what unique aspects were already present. However, I definitely want the improvements for Shuriken and Teleport, and don't want Bladestorm to just be a lazy, cheaper chain of Fatal Teleports. Also, I think the Smoke Screen change would give Ash more team play, instead of a selfish invisibility which Loki does better, and the augment could still include it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by KoinStar
Forgot to mention bladestorm making enemies invincibile

[Rain3ternal]

2 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

I didn't group all Ash players together or else I would've used words such as 'all' or 'ever' so take a seat and calm down. I don't think it is alright for any frame to be able to nuke a room and as a Saryn main I've experienced this dissappointment long before you did so don't try to point the problem out to me.

Yes pre-rework Ash was a one-trick pony like most Press 4 to Win frames are/were.

Yes his rework made him terrible at his job.

DE's trek on ultimate reworks is to remove the easy-mode of Press 4 to Win and with this they succeeded. The unfortunate thing is they made Ash as bad as Saryn and now they will seldom be seen because of it.

I understand the plight of you Ash lovers, really I do. That doesn't change the fact that regardless he needed to change just as Saryn did. I hope for your sakes DE actually listens to your feedback about his rework and change it and in all honesty they probably will because Ash is such an edgelord favorite amongst the playerbase. I wish I could say Saryn was popular enough to be looked at again but she isn't so go to the corner and watch DE fix Ash to be playable while me and other Saryn mains buff out the bullet holes on our Saryns and shelf her for the next day's beatings.

You very much did. The word "all" was not needed. As you said Ash players. That's pretty much the same thing. It's beside the point though, This ultimate defeats the purpose of having it. Saryn is one of my favorite frames that I simply don't use because of her rework. It sucks, but I'm tired of having to try to like a frame that just doesn't work for my own play style anymore. There's a million different things that could have been done to bladestorm to make it relevant, and none were chosen. 

[WhyNotBro]

13 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

Is this not what pre-rework Ash players were doing to their entire teams beforehand?

Yeah that was bad for a team, indeed. Ash was an issue in turms of team fun. However, we all expected from "rework" this change. Like...make targets NOT invulnerable, that's all we needed.

[KoinStar]

I posted this on the Ash feedback thread, but I thought it should also go here since it's not directly talking about his current revisit, but instead a new rework.

Rework Feedback:

After playing the new Ash, I have to say, it left more to be desired. Shuriken wasn't even touched, Smoke Screen and Teleport were given slight QoL changes, and Bladestorm just became a 2-step process. The uncancel-able animations are still there (one of the problems with Bladestorm, like getting caught on an ancient, not being able to revive the rescue target, etc.), enemies are still invincible in the animation (one of the main problems), its still redundant with Teleport/Fatal Teleport, and trying to mark an enemy in a group ends up marking the entire group. Overall, Bladestorm is still pretty boring. I would propose each ability to get looked at for a more in-depth rework.

Shuriken is pretty simple, so I would suggest adding more to it. I propose that tapping 1 would throw out a fan of (non-homing) shuriken, and holding it would send Ash into a lock-on mode (like current Bladestorm) and when you release, it sends out homing shuriken (like it does now); you would be able to lock on to an enemy multiple times. This would give the player a few more options to play with, and allow them to target specific enemies. Damage would scale with Strength, and possibly the amount of shuriken you can throw would scale with Duration (like how Nova's Null Star works; I'm just attempting to have more stats matter, this isn't required). An augment would replace the homing shuriken with one large non-homing shuriken that deals more damage, but just shoots straight. Also, an idea that I like is to have consecutive casts cost less (like Slash Dash and Landslide).

For Smoke Screen, I would suggest changing it from an invisibility power (which we have 3 of total, 4 if you count Invisibility Arrow, and it is really similar to Loki's) to an actual Smoke Screen. Ash would throw down a smoke bomb, leaving an area of smoke. There would still be a stagger of whoever is caught in the initial blast. Enemies inside would be blind and wander towards noise, and shoot at noise (including their allies). Ash and friends would be able to see the outlines of the enemies, so they could take advantage of the confusion by either escaping, or assassinating them. This gives the ability some CC and makes it more team-friendly. The duration of the initial stagger would scale with Strength, the duration of the smoke itself would scale with Duration, and the range of the smoke would of course scale with Range. An augment idea for it, for people who want the invisibility, would be to give Ash and friends invisibility when they leave the smoke (it lingers on them). This would combine the new ability and current augment. Another augment idea would be for their to be lingering smoke on Ash and co., but instead of turning them invisible, it blinds nearby enemies (the smoke gets in their eyes).

For Teleport, I wouldn't change anything, just add to it. I would add a combo counter that reduces cost on consecutive casts (like Ripline, and the above mentioned abilities). This would allow multiple consecutive teleports at a low cost, allowing players more mobility, and allowing them to manually simulate Bladestorm. This would especially work with Fatal Teleport. For people who like the cinematic kills, Fatal Teleport could do them. The reason I mention this is because, as I said before, it's redundant having both Teleport and Bladestorm; Bladestorm is a less interactive Teleport, and I'd rather retain Teleport.

So, I think a new 4th ability should be made, that's not based on one of his other abilities. It could be anything, but of course I'll give my own suggestion.

Since some unique parts of Bladestorm are the Clones Ash summons and the wrist blades, I would suggest an ability that integrates those, but again, it could be something new. The common idea is that Ash would summon Clones to help him fight, and they could use any of his other 3 abilities, but would be restricted to the wrist blades.

There are many ways to go about this, so I'll offer some different options.

This ability could be channeled or duration-based.

The clones could scale with Ash's melee mods. 

Just the clones could be restricted to the wrist blades, or Ash could be as well.

The amount of clones could be changeable, or restricted to a set number (like 2).

There are 2 different types of the clones' movements, and of those 2, 2 different options they could follow. They could either loosely follow Ash (not like Hall of Mirrors; more loose) or wander freely like Specters. And, they could either only cast abilities when Ash casts them (allowing some degree of control as to where and when they cast) or cast them freely.

So, those are my ideas for an Ash rework. I'm not terribly attached to the 4th, I just wanted to integrate what unique aspects were already present into a new ability. However, I definitely want the improvements for Shuriken and Teleport (the combo counter would be very welcome), and don't want Bladestorm to just be a lazy, cheaper chain of Fatal Teleports. Also, I think the Smoke Screen change would give Ash more team play, instead of a selfish invisibility which Loki does better, and the augment could still include the invisibility aspect.

Edited November 26, 2016 by KoinStar
Forgot to mention bladestorm making enemies invincibile

[Seryin]

Giving myself an additional 10 hours to sit on this change and think about it, I'm even more irritated than before. 

The move is given significantly more complication at the cost of ZERO benefit. This is a NERF from every angle.

The move was weak, but had amazing panic and "oh sh**" usage. Now that has been removed as well. It now has absolutely ZERO utility for me. Completely useless. If I am going to swipe my curser over targets to attack them, than I am just going to click my left mouse button and shoot them with my primary. Why waste the time or energy?

The cost drastically increased per target w/ no improvement to damage is ridiculous. The move was already useless as a damage dealer. Now even more so.

Perks such as targeting large groups through doorways are gone.

Panic usage gone.

Took one step in the right direction by making clones for bladestorm, and then did a complete faceplant and rolled violently back to the bottom of the hill with this change.

Just undo it. God please.
Admit you F'd up and just undo it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Seryin

[Issxi]

Salt and bitterness aside, I'm honestly willing to accept further frames as is instead of having them reworked. Saryn was the first one in what I see as a downward spiral in usefulness for frames and neglection to community feedback regarding said frames. If they don't fix Saryn and Ash, and take time and feedback on what should be changed into consideration for future reworks then DE is going to kill this game, and no matter how much content they come out with it won't bring people back. I really hope DE learns from Saryn and Ash and don't ruin upcoming frame reworks.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

I didn't group all Ash players together or else I would've used words such as 'all' or 'ever' so take a seat and calm down. I don't think it is alright for any frame to be able to nuke a room and as a Saryn main I've experienced this dissappointment long before you did so don't try to point the problem out to me.

Yes pre-rework Ash was a one-trick pony like most Press 4 to Win frames are/were.

Yes his rework made him terrible at his job.

DE's trek on ultimate reworks is to remove the easy-mode of Press 4 to Win and with this they succeeded. The unfortunate thing is they made Ash as bad as Saryn and now they will seldom be seen because of it.

I understand the plight of you Ash lovers, really I do. That doesn't change the fact that regardless he needed to change just as Saryn did. I hope for your sakes DE actually listens to your feedback about his rework and change it and in all honesty they probably will because Ash is such an edgelord favorite amongst the playerbase. I wish I could say Saryn was popular enough to be looked at again but she isn't so go to the corner and watch DE fix Ash to be playable while me and other Saryn mains buff out the bullet holes on our Saryns and shelf her for the next day's beatings.

I dont have to mark targets for spore or misma, You cannot compare Ash and Saryn. Sayrn is still vary viable and synergies well with team play. Ash rework has no place in this game.