Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[BronzeWolf]

1 minute ago, kleerr2 said:

Is it going to be difficult? Maybe DE could compensate a few things, and make things right, its not all that hard, is it?

When you say ''Ash's alternative builds that are better for team play", what builds do you mean, or do you just mean that:

a) Bladestorm is inefficient so players have to use ash's other skills.

b) Bladestorm no longer renders the enemy untargetable.

Maybe something else? And how did Ash become a ''teamplayer'', or rather a team contributor?

Why the Ash rework made Ash more than a one button frame.

The rework has made Smokescreen easier to cast, and with the changes to Bladestorm it can now be used as a single target assassination. Or if you want to Bladestorm a horde of enemies just swipe your mouse once or twice.

The Smokescreen and Bladestorm changes now give us three stealth frame types, the long single frame stealth (Loki), the multiframe moderate duration stealth (Ash), and the static multiframe stealth (Ivara). (You could say that we've had that since the augment for smokescreen, but it was never used in builds because of the sheer use of negative duration, high range, and high power strength Bladestorm builds. These changes make Smokescreen easier to access while Bladestorm can still be used)

Bladestormed enemies no longer being immune to damage means the entire team can kill more enemies. However the increased cost for the same amount of enemies that the old Bladestorm targeted means that Bladestorm will not be able to be used as often anymore. However since stealth melee multipliers given by Smokescreen more than makes up for the change so killing fodder enemies can still be done easily with melee, and Bladestorm being used on heavier targets.

My bias.

I personally prefer to use duration builds on Ash, so this rework was a buff to my playstyle when I play Ash.

[LeeoBSL]

Doubt this will make a change at all or if someone at DE beside a moderator will read this so called feedback megathread but it is worth trying.

I will start with the good points:

1. The Smoke Screen tweak is great and very welcome

2. The teleport got tweaked slightly so i cannot complain especially when i used these 2 abilities before the rework most of the time.

Now the bad....

You see...the "rework","revisit" (or whatever you want to call it) of Ash was focused on bladestorm and..that was kind of it. Before i start with bladestorm, i have to mention that shuriken remained the same ability, which is pointless to use since it just kills the target(at lower levels) and provides no CC or anything like that as a first ability(unlike frost,volt,ember etc. which are viable enough even at higher levels because of the procs).

This iteration of bladestorm is the same we saw in the devstream where they showcased this so called rework, nothing changed from then. Is the same clunky ability we feasted our eyes upon. What really bothers me as an Ash player is not that bladestorm is not as efficient as before, is just that remained the same movie ability only slower because you have to tag enemies for that movie to play again. This is simply a band aid and just ruins the killing potential of Ash, and also bringing nothing new to the table beside a marking system that is just worthless. I would strongly appreciate if DE would actually rework Ash and i have some ideas:

Smoke Screen could become an actual smoke bomb that Ash throws at his feet leaving a huge cloud of smoke with a certain range and duration that is affected by mods, stunning enemies and opening them to finishers (some might not like this idea, and it could also bring performance issues).

Bladestorm...the way it is now could be moved to the third ability slot (let's face it is just an inefficient fatal teleport now) combining bot the mark system that it is now and the current teleport.

The 4th ability could be something new, making Ash actually reworked, an idea is making Ash draw his hidden blades and while the ability is active make his attacks deal slash damage, and when the enemy hp reaches *insert % value* he can be finished off with a cool animation (even one from the actual bladestorm, just slightly tweaked so it won't look as clunky).

 

 

[aegondark]

A few sugestions for the new bladestorm...

1 - Put some indicator on the HUD to show when the ability is active or not...The black smoke and the black and white scenarios may pass unnoticed in some tilesets...Also, people with trouble to see colors cant see it properly...

2- Change the target system to allow us to mark the same enemy three times without moving the cursor away and move it back to that enemy to place a new mark..this new mark system may work like a conical FOV .... while an enemy remain in this FOV they will receive a new mark after a few moments(1s).

Edited November 26, 2016 by aegondark

[CorrinAvatan]

2 minutes ago, aegondark said:

A few sugestions for the new bladestorm...

1 - Put some indicator on the HUD to show when the ability is active or not...The black smoke and the black and white scenarios may pass unnoticed in some tilesets...Also, people with trouble to see colors cant see it properly...

2- Change the target system to allow us to mark the same enemy three times without moving the cursor away and move it back to that enemy to place a new mark..this new mark system may work like a conical FOV .... while an enemy remain in this FOV they will receive a new mark after a few moments(1s).

Your #2 already happens.  If you leave your mouse over a target, it gets multiple marks.  I'd say it happens after about .5 seconds

[AutoPhox]

I'd like to see marks give debuffs, like slow% and extra slash damage. That would make Ash more of a team player and give the 'marking' some worth for the effort.(then I might use BS for once)

I know this doesn't address the "storm" part, but it adds a bit of tactics and interactive function to the overall Uber ability.

[kleerr2]

5 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

The rework has made Smokescreen easier to cast, and with the changes to Bladestorm it can now be used as a single target assassination. Or if you want to Bladestorm a horde of enemies just swipe your mouse once or twice.

Do you remember the question i asked you not too long ago now? What is the incentive to use bladestorm instead of your weapon? You say that: "Oh bladestorm needs a build up so you need to use your only defensive skill, so you can use the offensive one'', but in reality you dont have to use bladestorm, you can just smokescreen and kill the enemies with your guns... Your ultimate ability is supposed to be atleast up to par with just weapons, atleast, but its kind of not...

11 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

The Smokescreen and Bladestorm changes now give us three stealth frame types, the long single frame stealth (Loki), the multiframe moderate duration stealth (Ash), and the static multiframe stealth (Ivara). (You could say that we've had that since the augment for smokescreen, but it was never used in builds because of the sheer use of negative duration, high range, and high power strength Bladestorm builds. These changes make Smokescreen easier to access while Bladestorm can still be used)

Again, the incentive to be using bladestorm... while i agree that nerfing bladestorm promoted his other abilities in a sense(and their augments), what are we doing about his ultimate(supposedly) ability?!

15 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

Bladestormed enemies no longer being immune to damage means the entire team can kill more enemies. However the increased cost for the same amount of enemies that the old Bladestorm targeted means that Bladestorm will not be able to be used as often anymore. However since stealth melee multipliers given by Smokescreen more than makes up for the change so killing fodder enemies can still be done easily with melee, and Bladestorm being used on heavier targets.

It actually means the team can kill ALL enemies, before Ash does a thing... Not too optimistic about Bladestorm in party play, just sayin...

17 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

My bias.

I personally prefer to use duration builds on Ash, so this rework was a buff to my playstyle when I play Ash.

Hey man, good for you, whatever works, but in all honesty, and i hate to repeat myself... why use bladestorm instead of any meta weapon??

[rartist]

Yup. the Ash nurf SUCKS. Don;t like Ash? Don't play Ash. Don't ruin it for everyone else. I spent a LOT of time developing my Ash Prime, and now its durability has gone into the toilet. On high-level missions the time it takes to "aim" (or whatever you want to call that lame mechanic) gets me killed. So, to be fair, the "aim" mechanic needs to be applied to all other WF's #4's.

Ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for bad thinking.

 

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

there is only 1 blatant problem in the new bladestorm, and it's that we still have the cinematic mode.

Scott, please remove that and let us send the clones while we can still move, would make more sense with the new "aim" mechanic for bladestorm.

it makes no sense to give more movement to Ash (smoke screen) and still lock him in cinematic mode when you press 4.

just my two cent.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Virtus_Dei_Est

[K4r4k4s4]

19 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Bladestormed enemies no longer being immune to damage

But actually bladestormed enemies was NEVER immune to damage of other players. They was harder to hit because of break dance animation and immune to control but they not immune to any damage, esp. AoE damage that easily hit marked mobs helping Ashe to finish 'em.

Edited November 26, 2016 by K4r4k4s4

[PsiWarp]

Now that I've had time to test out new Ash, here are my thoughts on the changes:

Smoke Screen

• Excellent changes to complement maneuverability. Warframe is a fast-paced game, and many Warframe powers still require the player to stand on the ground. If future changes can make them cast-friendly on the move and/or in the air, that will be much welcomed.
• It would be awesome if Smoke Screen emits a smoke-cloud-like aura (like Banshee's Silence or Equinox's Maim) while Ash is invisible, that staggers each enemy coming into range once per cast. This can help Ash become a better contender for crowd control when his team needs the backup and he can still be on the move (not having to be locked into Blade Storm cutscenes to CC).

Teleport

• Seems to be quite inconsistent for many objects, probably just a bit buggy. I would love it more if it wasn't just destructible objects, but all interactive objects (lockers, broken crates, consoles, datamasses, power cores, Life Support Capsules, etc)

Blade Storm

• I've had quite a bit of fun figuring out the new targeting mode, props for that. I really like the instant activation/deactivation, zero initial activating cost, and the smoke effect on Ash. The black and white I will have to get used to first.
• I wish that the highlighting color on marked enemies matched my energy color!
• The problem I have with Blade Storm has always been the cutscenes taking player control away from me. It was jarring, time-consuming, and got old quickly after the initial cool factor (it reminded me of that trailer with Capitain Vor). Now, the cutscenes are playing even more quickly (I believe my Primed Fury contributes to that), and it has began to nauseat me with the speed and length of which I have no choice but to sit through if I ever want to use my ultimate ability.
• The cutscenes are cool, but please place a limit on them so marking more enemies doesn't equal more pause between actual gameplay. I would suggest that Ash only teleports and attacks a maximum of 3 separate enemies before his clones take over for him for the rest of the marks. 3 cutscenes should be enough time of an invulnerability period for Ash.
• Also, temporary invulnerability or invisibility for Ash as he exits Blade Storm would be wonderful, since he becomes vulnerable standing there for half/a second before the player regains control.

The next steps:

Out of all these changes, I would have to say that giving players more control over their abilities is the best thing that you (DE) have done right. Please expand on this aspect more in the future. However, as you've began to walk the path to more interactivity, I would like that you continue to adjust and add to these features. Many players have suggested more synergy between Ash's abilities, and what more perfect way to implement that than through Blade Storm's new mode?

1. Shurikens - each hit adds 1 mark up to the maximum 3 marks, able to tag enemies outside of Blade Storm range (good for negative Power Range builds). If a target has 3 marks (or maximum marks achieved before overkill damage) already, Shurikens hitting him will instead make one of your clones perform Blade Storm attack on him. 2 Shurikens 2 clones, just the right number.
2. Smoke Screen - on cast, enemies around Ash are automatically marked, for 10 energy each as marking enemies this way considers Ash as being invisible.
3. Teleport - using Teleport on a marked enemy summons a clone to use Blade Storm attack on that enemy.
4. Blade Storm - during Blade Storm, while Ash and his clones are attacking, we know that enemies are invulnerable in this time to guarantee that Ash inflicts damage on them. Is it possible to add a mechanic similar to Nyx's Mind Control, where all damage dealt to those enemies are accumulated and dealt at the end of the ability? This would be a great change for teammates, who feel as though they can't outright kill the enemies with weapons or their abilities while Ash is "hogging" the enemies.
5. Please consider increasing Ash and Ash Prime's default energy pool, or slightly reducing Blade Storm's per target energy costs, in light of the new Blade Storm's demand for energy and Power Efficiency.

Cant wait to see what you guys have down the pipeline.

[BronzeWolf]

2 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Do you remember the question i asked you not too long ago now? What is the incentive to use bladestorm instead of your weapon? You say that: "Oh bladestorm needs a build up so you need to use your only defensive skill, so you can use the offensive one''

I'd say the incentive is that it is finisher damage and ignores armor. Also I need a source on that quote since I don't remember saying that, if you're paraphrasing please add that in.

9 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

But in reality you dont have to use bladestorm, you can just smokescreen and kill the enemies with your guns... Your ultimate ability is supposed to be atleast up to par with just weapons, atleast, but its kind of not...

Again, the incentive to be using bladestorm... while i agree that nerfing bladestorm promoted his other abilities in a sense(and their augments), what are we doing about his ultimate(supposedly) ability?!

It actually means the team can kill ALL enemies, before Ash does a thing... Not too optimistic about Bladestorm in party play, just sayin...

In honesty I feel that discretion is advised when using warframe abilities since if you gun is just as capable as your ult to kill an enemy than your choosing the wrong targets or the wrong time to use it. However I do agree that you shouldn't have to cast smokescreen in order to spend less energy on Bladestorm, because forced 'synergy' isn't synergy.

Again I feel that discretion is advised since if your team can kill all of your marked targets then it isn't the time or place to use Bladestorm.

[pyrocraziac]

Due to the intensive nature of how marking takes place there is too much incentive to avoid using the skill because player concentration is shifted to the offensive and defensive awareness suffers.

Ivara has prowl which drains energy per second while channeling.

Please implement a similar effect for Ash. While holding 4 to mark, Ash enters an invisible state (since that is part of his kit already) that drains energy per second to allow marking to happen safely.

If full invisibility is too much of a conflict with his smoke screen, then at least give him reduced visibility which reduces enemy accuracy significantly.

As observable in the rest of the game, there are no abilities that put the player in as much danger to use. Even Mesa has shatter shield to compensate for being immobilized while using her ultimate. Even Mesa got a few extra passes to make the skill satisfactory to the players.

Please consider rounding out his new kit to make bladestorm usable in nearly the same context as it has been used before - to quickly and safely eliminate threats.

[TheGoodDarius]

Dude, you are literally encouraged to cast Bladestorm while in the safety of the invisibility of Smokescreen, it even costs less energy!

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

Smokescreen 

his 2

you know

IT'S LITERARY RIGHT THERE 

[PsiWarp]

I don't know if it is necessary, since you have full control over other abilities, weapons, and your movement while in marking mode. Weave and dodge, Bullet Jump, Smoke Screen, the usual evasion tactics.

However, it would be nice if Ash was invulnerable or invisible as he exits Blade Storm. After the cutscenes, any players' head would spin and that half or full second before you regain control/situational awareness is enough to get you downed.

[Adix321]

RIР Esh .Wi love you .

[Elyann]

my feedback :

- really positive changes about smoke screen and teleport

- blade storm rework sucks...
 Targeting enemies ? Fine. I mean...it will slow down my dps a little but I'm okay with it...it will lower my survivanility due to the fact blade storm could be used as an invincibility skill but that's still fine ! 15 energy x target ? No....it makes bladestorm not worth using...teleport is just as good as my 4 rn to take out high priority targets and its cost is a LOT lower....and 10 energy units x target by using efficiency mods is still too much for a 4th skill .

[Valthryn]

I will list my beefs with Ash here, after running a 20 minute solo Mot survival with him (that's about as long as he could go solo).

 

1. His invisibility doesn't last long enough, and the animation to cast it is too long.

Solution: Cut the animation for casting in half, and increase the duration to match Loki's Invisibility. Since this is the only protective skill that Ash has, it needs to be good. 4 spam doesn't work anymore, so now Ash actually needs to protect himself while he's not in Bladestorm.

 

2. Bladestorm is useless when there's an Ancient Healer in the vicinity.

Solution: Have Bladestorm check for Ancients when initiated, and if an Ancient is found, have Bladestorm attack it first until it dies.

 

3. Bladestorm no longer attacks enemies until they die, and the mark system is clunky and borderline unusable in high end content (even the first 10 minutes of a Void survival mission on Mot). This causes Ash's DPS to fall off quickly and radically on pseudo-high end missions, and even more so against the Corpus faction, to the point where you can't even justify using him at all. Especially since the incredibly high energy cost per mark makes modding for maximum power efficiency the only option for Ash.

Solution: Have Bladestorm attack an enemy until they die, just like before, but have the energy cost increase on the same scale as the mark system, up to the equivalent of 3 marks. So, for example, if an enemy needs 3 marks now to kill them, then 3 marks worth of energy would be spent on that enemy in this new system. However, if another enemy needs 5 marks to kill them, then 5 Bladestorm animations will be activated for that enemy, but the energy cost would still be capped at 3 marks worth.

 

4. The energy cost per kill on Ash is exponentially higher than other frames. Too high.

 Solution: Decrease the cost per mark to, at the most, 10 energy per mark while not invisible.

 

5. The uninterruptable animation right after Ash exits Bladestorm is just long enough to get him killed.

Solution: Have Ash's invincibility last up until 2 seconds after he exits Bladestorm; problem solved.

 

These are my current problems with Ash, and solutions for them.

 

 

[achromos]

Don't people say invisibility is OP for defense...?  You know, because of naramon and loki? 

 

You have invisibility on demand.

 

Press 2 young padawan.

[Dawn11715]

You are aware, that you can litterally have the marking mode on ALL the time, with barely any downsides....

And Theirs smokescreen...

Its called synergy....

[Elyann]

7 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Smokescreen 

his 2

you know

IT'S LITERARY RIGHT THERE 

Smokescreen

his 2

You shouldn't be forced using it

Ash is not Saryn 2.0

Nor Mag


Apart from jokes....the energy cost on bladestorm is too heavy right now, even with efficiency mods ( 10 energy x target ) and even though ash is a stealth frame we shouldn't be forced to 2 -> 4 and so spend more energy when at this point you could just play a broken soundquake banshee and get a ton more damage done...or an ember...or lots of other frames whose abilities are just better in any case...and many of them have always been.
Teleport's new augment does make it feel way more appealing than bladestorm atm...and this shouldn't happen since every frame's 4 is meant to be some really powerful ability ( which is why they are usually the only ones to get nerfed ) .
Smokescreen is nice...but it's not something I want to get used spamming, even cause at this point if I really want to be a stealth frame I'd rather go on Loki...more duration , decoy , switch teleport working with decoy , disarm...
I think the only thing they should have tweaked was the "lock on" part...and make no changes to bladestorm's energy costs....it would have been more than enough to slow people's dps down a bit...and so lower it while they were trying to figure out on which mobs it was worth locking their 4 on.
This feels like an unneeded nerf though....and like a bad  solution that was maybe not even tested into end game content.

[Elyann]

1 minute ago, Dawn11715 said:

You are aware, that you can litterally have the marking mode on ALL the time, with barely any downsides....

And Theirs smokescreen...

Its called synergy....

forced sinergy isn't sinergy

[Vifany]

Frankly if DE merge 2nd and 4th together and add some other *@##$ ninja move istead 2nd it will be quiet nice. At least it will make some poit out of that creepy smokes and B&W filter.
 

16 minutes ago, TheGoodDarius said:

encouraged to cast Bladestorm while in the safety of the invisibility of Smokescree

Is it another "Guess what devs want you to do" game or some sandboxxy pve shooter with builds and stuff? Instead of encouraging us to use invis they should, nope, must just add it to 4th. And encourage us to give them some money for good work.

[SamuraiPizza]

Not sure if this has been posted here yet, but Brozime has made some pretty good constructive suggestions. 

EDIT: INB4 "oh here's another brozime fanboy" comments. 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Legion216

[Tengu_Bruxo]

2 minutes ago, Legion216 said:

Not sure if this has been posted here yet, but Brozime has made some pretty good constructive suggestions. 

EDIT: INB4 "oh here's another brozime fanboy" comments. 

 

 

I just watched this, very good stuff