Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[TheOnlyWarBear]

So WHY is 90 pages+ of ASH COMPLAINTS NOT ENOUGH for a single change IN ANYTHING Ash :( Like nothing has been done :(

[Xaentrick]

On 1/23/2017 at 10:56 AM, AKKILLA said:

Although Im Pro Stance Blade Storm all the way!

This makes two of us, though you already know this as we habe discussed this in many rework idea threads.

[AKKILLA]

1 hour ago, Xaentrick said:

This makes two of us, though you already know this as we habe discussed this in many rework idea threads.

Then rally and push!

We shouldnt give up! Keep up the positive feed back and good ideas

[DEATHLOK]

They always display interest in those two things.

[AKKILLA]

48 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

They always display interest in those two things.

what are you referring to exactly?

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Then rally and push!

We shouldnt give up! Keep up the positive feed back and good ideas

We will never accept defeat.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

Next devstream, ask questions about Ash. Mention him in chat all you can, ask a question in the new Topic they make before hand. We can still get Ash some help.

[AKKILLA]

1 hour ago, Kunsumption said:

Next devstream, ask questions about Ash. Mention him in chat all you can, ask a question in the new Topic they make before hand. We can still get Ash some help.

The thing is we can ask we want certain changes but we need to be in one accord.

Some of us are not agreeing on the same concepts for Ash. If we all agree on the same idea for Ash we have a better chance to be heard. The thing is not everyone will agree and like the same ideas, we just need a large team of peoples who feel the same to push these ideas as much as possible and offer solid concepts that are great in game.

May I ask what You want done to Ash? What ideas do You have an what ideas do You agree with in this Mega thread?

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, AKKILLA said:

May I ask what You want done to Ash? What ideas do You have an what ideas do You agree with in this Mega thread?

I agree on anything that isn't "Press 4 and let clones do everything while you sit on your backside".

I want Ash to be a mobile frame (teleport to location), focused on getting up close, with his melee affinity improved (shuriken scaling off melee combo counter, stance ultimate that doesn't have fancy tricks like invulnerability or AoE or E-spam instead focuses on proper combo use), an actual Smoke Screen, and an improved passive (I would be happy if they add the mostly cosmetical passive of special Finisher animations for bladed weapons similar to what we see in one of the trailers)

Also, some Conclave buffs for Teleport and Blade Storm.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Nazrethim

[AKKILLA]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I agree on anything that isn't "Press 4 and let clones do everything while you sit on your backside".

I want Ash to be a mobile frame (teleport to location), focused on getting up close, with his melee affinity improved (shuriken scaling off melee combo counter, stance ultimate that doesn't have fancy tricks like invulnerability or AoE or E-spam instead focuses on proper combo use), an actual Smoke Screen, and an improved passive (I would be happy if they add the mostly cosmetical passive of special Finisher animations for bladed weapons similar to what we see in one of the trailers)

Also, some Conclave buffs for Teleport and Blade Storm.

Exactly!

Why do you think a Stance style Blade Storm works best?

Conclave as well needs to be taken into account and this new system is a headache to cloak Yourself which can still get you seen and killed then press 4 to look around like a Maniac then after you mark 3 times everything you want dead you repress 4?

Nah, doesnt fit Conclave or Warframe period!

Its a nice design, for Splinter Cell, hey maybe a Ash solo Game. Not a PvE/PvP game.

Press 4 and activate and continuously attack whether it be mashin E cause people will always find an easy way to mash and spin to win. Its still active, it just depends on how each player utilizes whats given out of these Exalted Stance abilities or abilities like Razorwing, Artemis Bow, heck even Peacemaker falls in this category. DE just hasn't designed Peacemaker to be Mobile and utilize her entire abilities this would synergize soo Hard with Peacemaker, like me i use Muzzle Flash build with a negative duration this provides Crowd Control, jamming enemies guns then a Flash occurs when it switches thru allies.

Imagine Mesa this way, the same with Ash instead of pressing 4 and watching it happen we should press 4 to Activate Blade Storm. He can do some type of Jutsu hand seal summoning his clones and unsheathing his Katars. This sounds crazy but its a .1 second animation and from there You are able to use him as You want. This gives the player control. You can refresh a life support, revive an ally, defend a cryopod/tower in Blade Storm mode. I hate sitting there watchin an endless video while the screen says  MISSION FAILED.

Im sure alot of you had this issue in game playing Ash

[Nazrethim]

6 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Conclave as well needs to be taken into account and this new system is a headache to cloak Yourself which can still get you seen and killed then press 4 to look around like a Maniac then after you mark 3 times everything you want dead you repress 4?

Nah, doesnt fit Conclave or Warframe period!

Actually, you can't, in Conclave, ALL ultimates require 100 energy to activate, channeled or not, Blade Storm included, so you need max energy to use it. While marking mode is active aim glide and bulletjump are disabled for some reason. Each mark costs 25 energy, you can only have 1 mark on each player. Range is about 10m. If they die you don't get a refund. If you die or deactivate the ability, it will drain all energy. All the trouble of actually using it to deal...150-170ish Conclave Finisher damage (ignores Armor but not shields). Absolutely pointless. Teleport is too, as it doesn't do anything on the target, at least cast to location would make it useful for something.

[AKKILLA]

11 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Actually, you can't, in Conclave, ALL ultimates require 100 energy to activate, channeled or not, Blade Storm included, so you need max energy to use it. While marking mode is active aim glide and bulletjump are disabled for some reason. Each mark costs 25 energy, you can only have 1 mark on each player. Range is about 10m. If they die you don't get a refund. If you die or deactivate the ability, it will drain all energy. All the trouble of actually using it to deal...150-170ish Conclave Finisher damage (ignores Armor but not shields). Absolutely pointless. Teleport is too, as it doesn't do anything on the target, at least cast to location would make it useful for something.

You just made a huge point!

I hope DE see this. Its POINTLESS to use in Conclave meaning whats the point of playing ash?His Smoke Screen is mediocre, Teleport doesnt stun targets, Blade Storms too expensive and a hassle to use, basically not worth bothering, only ability tbh i see good in conclave is SHURIKEN i got a kill off one cast once but its good when enemies are low health, not an insta kill.

DE need to realize this isnt a single player game and all aspects of warframe abilities should be taken into account, PvE and PvP if they dont function smooth on both, it shouldnt be in game and be corrected.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

You just made a huge point!

I hope DE see this. Its POINTLESS to use in Conclave meaning whats the point of playing ash?His Smoke Screen is mediocre, Teleport doesnt stun targets, Blade Storms too expensive and a hassle to use, basically not worth bothering, only ability tbh i see good in conclave is SHURIKEN i got a kill off one cast once but its good when enemies are low health, not an insta kill.

DE need to realize this isnt a single player game and all aspects of warframe abilities should be taken into account, PvE and PvP if they dont function smooth on both, it shouldnt be in game and be corrected.

Actually Smoke Screen is the only ability worth using in general, it lasts only 4s and breaks if you attack, pick something up or sneeze, but it gives a whooping +0.4 Mobility while active (meaning you go from average joe bulletjump to jump-into-space for the duration). Shuriken doesn't track automaticaly, it only tracks whoever you have on your crosshair, meaning if you throw a shuriken at someone and said target goes behind a wall you can reflex-aim to another player and the shuriken will alter course, the damage is still lacking for the skill requirement to actually land one, at least it should apply a bleed or cripple the target's mobility briefly.

Ash also has really good mobility-to-EHP stats. It's a mixed bag really, just as in PvE.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

 

On 1/25/2017 at 9:06 AM, AKKILLA said:

The thing is we can ask we want certain changes but we need to be in one accord.

Some of us are not agreeing on the same concepts for Ash. If we all agree on the same idea for Ash we have a better chance to be heard. The thing is not everyone will agree and like the same ideas, we just need a large team of peoples who feel the same to push these ideas as much as possible and offer solid concepts that are great in game.

May I ask what You want done to Ash? What ideas do You have an what ideas do You agree with in this Mega thread?

 

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Actually Smoke Screen is the only ability worth using in general, it lasts only 4s and breaks if you attack, pick something up or sneeze, but it gives a whooping +0.4 Mobility while active (meaning you go from average joe bulletjump to jump-into-space for the duration). Shuriken doesn't track automaticaly, it only tracks whoever you have on your crosshair, meaning if you throw a shuriken at someone and said target goes behind a wall you can reflex-aim to another player and the shuriken will alter course, the damage is still lacking for the skill requirement to actually land one, at least it should apply a bleed or cripple the target's mobility briefly.

Ash also has really good mobility-to-EHP stats. It's a mixed bag really, just as in PvE.

If we truly are going to make the change happen, we really need to agree. We can make the change, but only as a majority.

Alright so: We have a lot of different factors here. One of the biggest issues we have, really, is the agreement upon which and how things change for Ash. Considering the over 90 pages of feedback, we need to narrowly adjust every single part we want adjusted.

 

In general, it seems to me the average complaint about Ash is his fourth ability, Bladestorm. I myself was expecting an amazing change to come with his rework. However, in actuality, it made it slower and much more clunky, the worst part being that we STILL have to sit through our animations.

A resolution proposed that I generally like the concept of is being able to use 4 as an exalted form of power, much like that of Valkyr, Excal, Wukong, etc. BUT, I think we can agree (to those who agree with the exalted weapon play) that it needs to differ from the normal function of the other exalted weapons. While I am not entirely sure what this "niche" of Ash's 4th ability may be, he needs one.

Ash's first ability seems fine, however, it seems unusual that at max rank, you only throw 2 stars, instead of at least three.

People say they want the ability to teleport. And when they say teleport, they mean ANYWHERE. This would make ash stand out more in terms of teleporting yes, but to sway DE in our direction, what about being able to keep teleport how it is now, but when teleporting anywhere, you get half the distance, and a little more energy than usual. This is just a spin off of the idea; obviously I would love being able to teleport anywhere I point, it would be the most fun I've ever had.

Smokescreen is seen as somewhat as a joke, but Ash isn't Loki, it should not have to be much longer than it already is. My only suggestion is that an enemy affected is now open to finisher, but instead of using the currently equipped melee weapon, we use Ash's blades.

 

Aside from a few minor tweaks to minor abilities, Bladestorm obviously needs the focus. Many players don't want to be able to sit back and press 4 and watch things die on their screen, providing another lazy frame and essentially a revision of how Bladestorm worked previously; just press 4 and watch. What if when using Bladestorm, as an exalted weapon, teleporting cost is either halved or taken away completely. Assuming, teleporting allowed the ability to teleport where one would point, this would supply Ash with huge amounts of mobility and speed, making the following video seem like a reality:

NOTE: Skip to 2:50.

 

While I am completely aware that in the video, at 2:50, Ash only teleported twice and used Heat Swords, a sense of what I am trying to portray is within the parameters of those few seconds you see. Say, for instance, we switch those heat swords to instead be Ash's blades, and ash can teleport where he pleases, and not just to enemies. I feel this change would allow for Ash to stay finally mobile, and still retain effectiveness. HOWEVER, we are currently aware that exalted weapons are based off of melee mods equipped on your melee weapon. My proposal is simply that the function of using melee mods to change the effectiveness of the blades would be altered to be a fixed set of damage that the blades can do, but have a 100% bleed proc, and damage scales higher with the melee counter. We already have an augment for Ash's fourth ability that is as follows:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/8/83/RisingStorm.png/revision/latest?cb=20160209133209

 

While it is a choice to have that specific augment on, the idea of having the blades get a 100% bleed proc, a fixed base damage, and damage that scales higher with the melee counter makes Ash's fourth ability different and effective in terms of making Ash viable without copying the other exalted weapons. Another way to go about it would to make some part of the ability (be it the bleed proc, the fixed damage, or the melee counter) scale with the level of the enemy; the whole ability will not scale, but part of it could, as to allow a sense of some sort of balance. I suggest making the rate at which we build our melee counter be increased based on the level of enemies fighting, so that damage scales, but only based on the melee counter itself.

I forgot to mention, all ability will also work when his 4th ability is active. The assumption for my proposal is that Teleport energy value is either halved or zero.

 

In terms of conclave, I have a few suggestions, but am currently short on time. I will come back and write a new post on that idea.

But in the meantime, please, for the sake of getting the change we need, give your input to Ash based off of the post I have just made. If you don't like an idea, suggest a change. Or simply suggest to keep something the same. We really need to band together on this one, Tenno. We can't change it separated, but together we can make the change happen. We just have to agree.

[Nazrethim]

44 minutes ago, Kunsumption said:

 

 

If we truly are going to make the change happen, we really need to agree. We can make the change, but only as a majority.

Alright so: We have a lot of different factors here. One of the biggest issues we have, really, is the agreement upon which and how things change for Ash. Considering the over 90 pages of feedback, we need to narrowly adjust every single part we want adjusted.

Agreed

Quote

In general, it seems to me the average complaint about Ash is his fourth ability, Bladestorm. I myself was expecting an amazing change to come with his rework. However, in actuality, it made it slower and much more clunky, the worst part being that we STILL have to sit through our animations.

A resolution proposed that I generally like the concept of is being able to use 4 as an exalted form of power, much like that of Valkyr, Excal, Wukong, etc. BUT, I think we can agree (to those who agree with the exalted weapon play) that it needs to differ from the normal function of the other exalted weapons. While I am not entirely sure what this "niche" of Ash's 4th ability may be, he needs one.

I have a solid idea to make it stand out from every other Stance Ultimate: Make it skill based rather than mindless E-spam and scale it's damage the way Blade Storm currently scales (that is, indefinetly). That would make a world of difference. I will explain later.

Quote

Ash's first ability seems fine, however, it seems unusual that at max rank, you only throw 2 stars, instead of at least three.

People say they want the ability to teleport. And when they say teleport, they mean ANYWHERE. This would make ash stand out more in terms of teleporting yes, but to sway DE in our direction, what about being able to keep teleport how it is now, but when teleporting anywhere, you get half the distance, and a little more energy than usual. This is just a spin off of the idea; obviously I would love being able to teleport anywhere I point, it would be the most fun I've ever had.

Alternative: same range and cost, but no finisher opening. The ability working on a Tap/Hold duality, Tap for regular Teleport-to-enemy (that annoying and buggy teleport-to-object removed) and Hold (for about 1s, with autorelease) to teleport to wherever you are aiming.

Quote

Smokescreen is seen as somewhat as a joke, but Ash isn't Loki, it should not have to be much longer than it already is. My only suggestion is that an enemy affected is now open to finisher, but instead of using the currently equipped melee weapon, we use Ash's blades.

Just the Finisher opening would make it stand out as an hybrid offensive-defensive tool.

Quote

Aside from a few minor tweaks to minor abilities, Bladestorm obviously needs the focus. Many players don't want to be able to sit back and press 4 and watch things die on their screen, providing another lazy frame and essentially a revision of how Bladestorm worked previously; just press 4 and watch. What if when using Bladestorm, as an exalted weapon, teleporting cost is either halved or taken away completely. Assuming, teleporting allowed the ability to teleport where one would point, this would supply Ash with huge amounts of mobility and speed, making the following video seem like a reality:

NOTE: Skip to 2:50.

 

While I am completely aware that in the video, at 2:50, Ash only teleported twice and used Heat Swords, a sense of what I am trying to portray is within the parameters of those few seconds you see. Say, for instance, we switch those heat swords to instead be Ash's blades, and ash can teleport where he pleases, and not just to enemies.

Or.. give Ash those (and similar) Finisher animations for bladed and Claw weapons (Sword, Dual Sword, Nikana, Claws, maybe Daggers and Dual Daggers too) as an expansion of his passive.

Quote

I feel this change would allow for Ash to stay finally mobile, and still retain effectiveness. HOWEVER, we are currently aware that exalted weapons are based off of melee mods equipped on your melee weapon. My proposal is simply that the function of using melee mods to change the effectiveness of the blades would be altered to be a fixed set of damage that the blades can do, but have a 100% bleed proc, and damage scales higher with the melee counter.

My proposal is that it should deal pure Slash damage with 100% bleed proc, scales off the combo counter and can only benefit from certain mods. (more on that at the end)

Quote

We already have an augment for Ash's fourth ability that is as follows:

Rising Storm is a very lackluster Augment, 3s combo counter were super amaizing before Body Count and Drifting Contact arrived.

Quote

In terms of conclave, I have a few suggestions, but am currently short on time. I will come back and write a new post on that idea.

My suggestions at the end will include Conclave stats and mechanics, you may take notes from them :)

Quote

But in the meantime, please, for the sake of getting the change we need, give your input to Ash based off of the post I have just made. If you don't like an idea, suggest a change. Or simply suggest to keep something the same. We really need to band together on this one, Tenno. We can't change it separated, but together we can make the change happen. We just have to agree.

Ok, the following wall of text is mostly from my old suggestion thread, adjusted some minor aspects:

Spoiler

This is a suggestion to rework Ash. I try to aim for these aspects:

- He must keep his theme:

"This is Ash, lethal and elusive. Ash can remain unseen, but his effects on the battlefield can be felt by all. Keep an eye out, Tenno." -Lotus

-The ability set must synergize but at the same time the abilities shouldn't require other abilities to actually work.

- Must be interactive

- Shouldn't require more than a stat tweak to work in Conclave, remaining mostly the same mechanically.

- Must be simple to use, but at the same time allow for skilled players some crazy tactical stuff.

TL;DR version:

Spoiler

Passive: Unchanged in PvE. Weak Bleed on hit in PvP. Also adds new finisher animations to some weapons

Shuriken: Skillshot with punch trough. Tracking or Caltrop functions added trough Augments.

Smoke Screen: cast to make smoke cloud in designated location and stun enemies.

Teleport: teleport to location rather than unit with small AoE finisher opening.

Blade Storm: Duration-based Stance ultimate with clone-summoning multi-kill mechanic on Finisher attacks. Keeps and expands a bit the current targeting mechanic

Flavor Ash Prime speech:

Spoiler

*A grineer ship, a platoon of grineer*

Ballas: War, is like a  wildfire, it starts with a spark.

*a Shuriken out of nowhere kills two lancers*

Ballas:it consumes the trees one by one.

*Ash teleports to 3 consecutive enemies killing them*

*A grineer activates the alarm*

Ballas: Until the smoke darkens the sky

*Ash casts a Smoke Screen on an aproaching platoon and pulls out his wristblades*

Ballas: And the flames consume the forest

*Ash teleports inside the cloud*

*Shrouded inside the cloud, multiple instances of Ash can be perceived executing the platoon with the wristblades*

*beat*

Ballas: And when the fire burns out...

*Mutilated corpses fall to the ground at the same time with a sickening sound as the smoke begins to clear*

Ballas:...and the smoke clears...

*the smoke clears, revealing Ash Prime standing with his blades pulled out and dripping blood*

Ballas: ...what remains...

*black screen*

Ballas: ...is Ash

 

Passive 1: Hemorrhage:

Coop: Increase Bleed damage by 20% and duration by 50%

Conclave: Melee Attacks (Equiped or Quickmelee) inflict a Bleed on the target dealing 2 points of damage every second for 5 seconds. This Bleeds doesn't stack with itself, merely refreshes the duration.

Passive 2: Assassin

Ash performs special Finisher animations with Swords, Dual Swords, Nikanas, Claws, Daggers and Dual Daggers.

1- Shuriken:

Cost: 25

Ash throws a shuriken in a straight line, the shuriken inflicts Slash damage and a high damage Bleed proc. Damage affected by Melee Combo counter. Has 1.5 Punch Trough

Seeking Shuriken (Augment): Shuriken will now seek targets instead of flying in a straight line, doing up to 100º turns and bouncing off walls, to land a headshot if possible. Additionally it removes armor from struck enemies for 5s. Mutually exclusive with Caltdrops.

Caltdrops (Augment): Missed Shurikens create fields of caltdrops with 3m radius for 15s. Enemies who step on them take 50% of Shuriken's damage and Bleed proc and reduce affected enemies movement speed by 30% for 5s. Mutually exclusive with Seeking Shuriken

Conclave: Ash throws a shuriken in a straight line, the shuriken deals 30 Slash damage and inflicts a  Bleed proc dealing 10 points of damage every second for 3 seconds.

Crippling Shuriken (Conclave Augment): Shuriken inflicts a crippling wound on contact. -0.5 Mobility on targets for 2s. Shuriken no longer applies a Bleed proc. Increase Shuriken cost by 5. Mutually exclusive with Homing Shuriken.

Homing Shuriken (Conclave Augment): Casting Shuriken will mark any enemy on Ash's aiming reticle with a visible chevron over it's head for 3s. Shuriken will seek this target if they are within line of sight of Ash.

2- Smoke Screen:

Cost: 35

Ash creates a cloud of smoke at his feet (Tap) or on the aimed surface (Hold for 1s) that chokes enemies who enter it for 3s opening them for Finisher attacks. Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud. The cloud lasts 12s and has a 6m radius. Casting range is 30m

Smoke Shadow (Augment): Allies who enter the cloud become invisible while inside and for 8s after leaving the cloud. Mutually exclusive with Toxic Cloud.

Toxic Cloud (Augment): Smoke Screen also deals Gas damage to enemies inside it and increases any Toxic or Gas damage they take from other sources for 8s after they leave the cloud. Mutually exclusive with Smoke Shadow.

Conclave: Ash creates a cloud of smoke in the aimed location applying Fog to enemies inside the cloud and for 2s after leaving the cloud. Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 4s after leaving the cloud. The cloud lasts 10s and has a 4m radius. Attacking, collecting pickups or taking damage will break the invisibility outside the cloud, but not if Ash is inside it. Graphically a subtle cloud.

Tear Gas (Conclave Augment): Blinds enemies who enter the cloud while they are inside it and for 2s after leaving the cloud. Ash is only invisible inside the cloud, it no longer gives lingering invisibility. Becomes a mustard-gas-like highly visible cloud (similar to Mutalist Osprey's clouds)

3- Teleport:

Cost: 25

Ash teleports to the aimed location, staggering enemies in a 3m radius around Ash after teleporting and opening them to Finisher attacks. Teleport range is 40m

Fatal Cadence (Augment): Casting Teleport reduces the energy cost of the next Teleport or Shuriken by 50%. This effect lasts 5s. Mutually exclusive with Killing Spree.

Killing Spree (Augment): Casting Teleport will initiate a killing spree allowing Ash to kill multiple enemies nearby. Mutually exclusive with Fatal Cadence. In practice casting teleport will initiate a minigame where Ash needs to press one of 3 (E, R, F) different inputs (one of them randomly selected for each window) quickly to chain-kill enemies (each window lasting about 1.5-2s), pressing the wrong key or running out of time will end the spree.

Conclave: Ash teleports to the aimed location. Teleport range is 30m

Ambush (Conclave Augment): Teleport stagger (stun) enemies in a 2m radius around Ash after teleporting. Increase the cost of Teleport by 5

4-Bladestorm:

Cost: 100

"Ash goes on a rampage, unleashing the power of his hidden blades and martial fury upon enemies."

Ash enters into Bladestorm stance, consisting of fast and vicious attacks with his hidden blades which inflict deadly Bleed procs on every hit. Finishing an enemy will make Ash summon smoke copies of himself to execute nearby enemies (Ash and his smoke copies do the same finisher animation at the same time). Ash gains increased mobility and evasive capabilities while in Bladestorm mode. Bladestorm lasts 15s

 Bladestorm  stats:

-100 Slash damage

-20% Crit chance. 2x Critical Multiplier

-60% Block

- Affected by Damage, Attack Speed, Critical Strike Chance/Damage and Channeling mods (not affected by Elemental mods and Shadow Debt Event mods)

- 100% Chance to inflict a Bleed proc on hit

- 'Pause' Combo opens enemies to Finisher.

- 'RMB' Combo focus on covering ground for fast maneuvering

- Performing a Finisher to an enemy will spawn smoke copies of Ash to finish enemies in a 3m radius, up to 5 copies spawned. Copies deal the same damage Ash deals with the Finisher attack and only attack once per Finisher. Finisher animations are the same animations current Blade Storm uses.

-If Ash is affected by Smoke Screen the copies will be invisible and will grant Stealth Kill Affinity buff if they execute unalerted enemies.

-While in Bladestorm Ash gains 20% Sprint, Bulletjump, Wall latch, Aimglide. And Sidespring and Backspring evasive maneuvers are speed up by 50%

- Can be canceled by recasting.

Addition: Aimglide while in Blade Storm mode will mark enemies at 10 energy (5 if invisible) per target. Casting Shuriken or Teleport will cause Ash to either throw a Shuriken to all marked targets or chain teleport until all marked targets are attacked.

Rising Storm (Augment): While Bladestorm is active: Combo counter duration is increased by 10s and increases the melee combo counter by 10 every time Ash performs a Finisher on Blade Storm mode.

Conclave:

-60 Slash damage

-60% Block

-Not affected by melee mods

-100% chance to inflict a 3s Bleed* proc on hit

-While in Bladestorm Ash gains +0.5 Mobility and 1.2 Sprint Speed. And Sidespring and Backspring evasive maneuvers are speed up by 50%

-Lasts 8s

-Ash cannot collect pickups

-Can be canceled by recasting.

-Doesn't trigger Hemorrhage

Blade Storm stance:

Standing/moving animations: same as when a kunai or other throwing knife is equiped.

Basic combo (EEEE):

Spoiler

1&2- Initial Tonfa attacks.

3- Frontal multiple stabs with the right blade, from Malicious Raptor Venging Thrash

4- Stab with both blades, from the final hit of Gnashing Payara's Pincer Strike

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE)

Spoiler

1&2- Initial Tonfa attacks.

3- Grim Fury's Fanning Flame final kick. Opens enemies to finishers.

4- Vermillion Storm's Crimsom Hurricane spinning slash animation.

Combo 2 (EERmb+EE)

Spoiler

1&2- Initial Tonfa attacks.

3- Crossing Snakes's Lacerating Leap final move forward

4- Four Riders' Hungering Encroachment final lunge forward

Slide Attack, Aerial attack Ground finisher and Ground slam share animations with Claw-type melee weapons. Counter and Stealth Finisher use bladestorm finisher animations

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Nazrethim

[TheOnlyWarBear]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Also adds new finisher animations to some weapons

This would take too long to implement. We don't need different looks, per se. We need mechanical fixes.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash throws a shuriken in a straight line, the shuriken inflicts Slash damage and a high damage Bleed proc. Damage affected by Melee Combo counter.

I like, but my only problem with this is that you are taking away a whole shuriken from the only 2 we are allowed to throw right now. I propose we make his first ability throw 3.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

aimed surface (Hold for 1s) that chokes enemies who enter it for 3s opening them for Finisher

I believe that Ash's second ability is at its core just fine, but I suggest that we allow its currents state to allow finishers and a little bit longer of a stun time.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash teleports to the aimed location, staggering enemies in a 3m radius around Ash after teleporting and opening them to Finisher attacks. Teleport range is 40m

So far I am really enjoying that, more in a second after I finish reading.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Killing Spree (Augment): Casting Teleport will initiate a killing spree allowing Ash to kill multiple enemies nearby. Mutually exclusive with Fatal Cadence. In practice casting teleport will initiate a minigame where Ash needs to press one of 3 (E, R, F) different inputs (one of them randomly selected for each window) quickly to chain-kill enemies (each window lasting about 1.5-2s), pressing the wrong key or running out of time will end the spree.

And this I can't say I agree with. Assuming there is a window open for each enemy there, and each window is open for 1.5 seconds, it takes too long for the flow of combat in warframe. I don't want to worry about a 6 second window being open to kill 3 enemies when I can kill 10 with a few well placed rounds. As a whole, in terms of the augments you suggest, I find that no new augments are needed. Asking for different augments may be too much of a change to ask for in this endevour of ours. The augments he has currently, in terms of the proposed in my post, will need little to no change. You are asking for a plethora of change that is highly unlikely to happen.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

4-Bladestorm:

Cost: 100

"Ash goes on a rampage, unleashing the power of his hidden blades and martial fury upon enemies."

Ash enters into Bladestorm stance, consisting of fast and vicious attacks with his hidden blades which inflict deadly Bleed procs on every hit. Finishing an enemy will make Ash summon smoke copies of himself to execute nearby enemies (Ash and his smoke copies do the same finisher animation at the same time). Ash gains increased mobility and evasive capabilities while in Bladestorm mode. Bladestorm lasts 15s

 Bladestorm  stats:

-100 Slash damage

-20% Crit chance. 2x Critical Multiplier

-60% Block

- Affected by Damage, Attack Speed, Critical Strike Chance/Damage and Channeling mods (not affected by Elemental mods and Shadow Debt Event mods)

- 100% Chance to inflict a Bleed proc on hit

- 'Pause' Combo opens enemies to Finisher.

- 'RMB' Combo focus on covering ground for fast maneuvering

- Performing a Finisher to an enemy will spawn smoke copies of Ash to finish enemies in a 3m radius, up to 5 copies spawned. Copies deal the same damage Ash deals with the Finisher attack and only attack once per Finisher. Finisher animations are the same animations current Blade Storm uses.

-If Ash is affected by Smoke Screen the copies will be invisible and will grant Stealth Kill Affinity buff if they execute unalerted enemies.

-While in Bladestorm Ash gains 20% Sprint, Bulletjump, Wall latch, Aimglide. And Sidespring and Backspring evasive maneuvers are speed up by 50%

- Can be canceled by recasting.

Addition: Aimglide while in Blade Storm mode will mark enemies at 10 energy (5 if invisible) per target. Casting Shuriken or Teleport will cause Ash to either throw a Shuriken to all marked targets or chain teleport until all marked targets are attacked.

Rising Storm (Augment): While Bladestorm is active: Combo counter duration is increased by 10s and increases the melee combo counter by 10 every time Ash performs a Finisher on Blade Storm mode.

Conclave:

-60 Slash damage

-60% Block

-Not affected by melee mods

-100% chance to inflict a 3s Bleed* proc on hit

-While in Bladestorm Ash gains +0.5 Mobility and 1.2 Sprint Speed. And Sidespring and Backspring evasive maneuvers are speed up by 50%

-Lasts 8s

-Ash cannot collect pickups

-Can be canceled by recasting.

-Doesn't trigger Hemorrhage

Blade Storm stance:

Standing/moving animations: same as when a kunai or other throwing knife is equiped.

Basic combo (EEEE):

Your suggestion to Bladestorm seems... almost inefficient in a sense. Now please take into consideration, I am not denying your suggestion, but rather am suggesting to supply some change. Your suggestion makes the Devs have to work a little harder than they may need to. They would need to develop Ash's Clones' AI, which is much more work than we should be asking for. We don't necessarily want a new "frame" with different abilities, but actual revisions to what they have already produced. Not to mention that splitting Ash into essentially 6 different parts seems like too much division over the potential power of the ability, and less control over what you as a player want killed.

 

The suggestions I have made require only a major facelift to Bladestorm. You suggestions require work all the way around in ways that DE may not consider. From their last rework you can see they didn't change much, and at this point (90 pages of suggestions in), what we ask for is less of new abilities, and more of just simple viable changes.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

Ash for conclave:

 

First ability: The behavior of Ash's first ability, to throw a shuriken, should act like Frost's first ability. Frost has a great lockon ability, but Ash's instance should require the reticle to be a bit closer the the actual target in order to follow through and make contact, considering  the projectile move much faster.

 

Second ability: The ability in it's current state is fine.

 

Third ability: The only change that should be made is the ability to freely teleport and have a small stagger on enemies you teleport to.

I forgot to mention in my main post: Ash can not teleport to targets in the air. This needs to be change by allowing Ash to do so and refreshing bullet jump/ double jump.

 

4th ability. Ash pulls out his Blades as an exalted ability. Works like Valkyr's or Excaliburs. The only change being a set damage fixed for conclave and to freely teleport with no cost.

 

 

NOTE: I am trying to suggest fixes to ash that don't require DE to work too hard. Am I wrong in wanting this?

 

EDIT: A THOUGHT JUST OCCURRED TO ME: We need attention to get this whole agenda moving. How? Simply, the next devstream. Within the live chat, we need multiple people saying the same thing. Something along the lines of:
 

HELP SAVE ASH: Visit this page to help DE see what needs to be done!

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/725161-ash-revisited-feedback-megathread/?page=90

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Kunsumption

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Kunsumption said:

I like, but my only problem with this is that you are taking away a whole shuriken from the only 2 we are allowed to throw right now. I propose we make his first ability throw 3.

It's one Shuriken with punch trough, so you could technically hit a whole line of enemies instead of the first enemy absorbing the shurikens for his pals behind. The damage of the shuriken could also be adjusted to make up for lack of projectiles, though the melee combo counter boosting it's damage would be enough.

1 hour ago, Kunsumption said:

SAnd this I can't say I agree with. Assuming there is a window open for each enemy there, and each window is open for 1.5 seconds, it takes too long for the flow of combat in warframe. I don't want to worry about a 6 second window being open to kill 3 enemies when I can kill 10 with a few well placed rounds. As a whole, in terms of the augments you suggest, I find that no new augments are needed. Asking for different augments may be too much of a change to ask for in this endevour of ours. The augments he has currently, in terms of the proposed in my post, will need little to no change. You are asking for a plethora of change that is highly unlikely to happen.

You make a good point. To be honest this specific Augment I added it last to the original thread because by then I had the skeleton of the rework mostly "finished". I too prefer changes that don't require a lot of work on DE's part, SPECIALLY after seeing what they have made over months (to be fair, they probably were very busy with TWW to give Ash an actual complete rework, or at least a revisit that fixed most if not all the issues with the frame)

1 hour ago, Kunsumption said:

Your suggestion to Bladestorm seems... almost inefficient in a sense. Now please take into consideration, I am not denying your suggestion, but rather am suggesting to supply some change. Your suggestion makes the Devs have to work a little harder than they may need to. They would need to develop Ash's Clones' AI, which is much more work than we should be asking for. We don't necessarily want a new "frame" with different abilities, but actual revisions to what they have already produced. Not to mention that splitting Ash into essentially 6 different parts seems like too much division over the potential power of the ability, and less control over what you as a player want killed.

There isn't any "clone AI". What my idea in mechanical terms does is turn the blade storm mode's Finisher attacks in old bladestorm triggers. Doing a Finisher triggers old Blade Storm automatic marking on a limited number of targets within a radius, causing the clones to show up, that's why they only attack once and then dissapear.

1 hour ago, Kunsumption said:

 

The suggestions I have made require only a major facelift to Bladestorm. You suggestions require work all the way around in ways that DE may not consider. From their last rework you can see they didn't change much, and at this point (90 pages of suggestions in), what we ask for is less of new abilities, and more of just simple viable changes.

Well, that depends on how you look at it. The Blade Storm stance I suggested is pretty much cobbled together from different animations in short, streamlined combos, not unlike what they did to make the Conclave stances, the multikill bladestorm mechanic is essentially old bladestorm but triggered by finisher attacks and on a lesser scale, Teleport to location wouldn't be different from casting a Decoy, except instead of creating a new entity it swaps the coords of the caster to coords near the aimed location.

On the other hand, I would be happy if they remove that buggy and annoying Teleport-to-object and add an actual Teleport-to-location and revise Rising Storm augment to be worth the slot (like making each target Ash personally attacks with blade storm award 4 hits to the combo counter, essentially surging dash but for blade storm, which would be far superior to +3s combo counter) and do something about Shuriken ignoring targets I'm actually aiming at and hitting undesired targets.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

It's one Shuriken with punch trough, so you could technically hit a whole line of enemies instead of the first enemy absorbing the shurikens for his pals behind. The damage of the shuriken could also be adjusted to make up for lack of projectiles, though the melee combo counter boosting it's damage would be enough.

You make a good point. To be honest this specific Augment I added it last to the original thread because by then I had the skeleton of the rework mostly "finished". I too prefer changes that don't require a lot of work on DE's part, SPECIALLY after seeing what they have made over months (to be fair, they probably were very busy with TWW to give Ash an actual complete rework, or at least a revisit that fixed most if not all the issues with the frame)

There isn't any "clone AI". What my idea in mechanical terms does is turn the blade storm mode's Finisher attacks in old bladestorm triggers. Doing a Finisher triggers old Blade Storm automatic marking on a limited number of targets within a radius, causing the clones to show up, that's why they only attack once and then dissapear.

Well, that depends on how you look at it. The Blade Storm stance I suggested is pretty much cobbled together from different animations in short, streamlined combos, not unlike what they did to make the Conclave stances, the multikill bladestorm mechanic is essentially old bladestorm but triggered by finisher attacks and on a lesser scale, Teleport to location wouldn't be different from casting a Decoy, except instead of creating a new entity it swaps the coords of the caster to coords near the aimed location.

On the other hand, I would be happy if they remove that buggy and annoying Teleport-to-object and add an actual Teleport-to-location and revise Rising Storm augment to be worth the slot (like making each target Ash personally attacks with blade storm award 4 hits to the combo counter, essentially surging dash but for blade storm, which would be far superior to +3s combo counter) and do something about Shuriken ignoring targets I'm actually aiming at and hitting undesired targets.

Fair enough. But we really do need to get this rolling, my friends. If you own a clan, or know the clan master, get the message of the day to change to encourage the fix Ash really needs. Is nobody but Nazrethim replying now?

[LSG501]

On 23/01/2017 at 1:23 PM, GTXproject001 said:

Its just so annoying that you need to mark enemies 3 times -_-

like seriously enemies would be dead before i mark all 3....

just make it 1 time mark!!

and reduce the energy requirements, it's stupidly high. 

I've tried to adapt to Ash and I'm very good at the motion sickness sweep across the screen that we need to do now but the biggest issue is still getting the energy usage down low enough to actually make his 4 viable without having to use an energy pizza after every use or maybe an arcane (haven't got that to try) because zenurik doesn't really give enough back quick enough to compensate. 

I still say the targeting should be line of sight with a single cost for 15 targets, 3 hits per target max and with the ability to stop the attacks (something a lot were asking for and nothing happened).  In a way it's similar to mesa rather than the mark as you go approach, because pretty much EVERY time I have tried to use Ash in a team I end up wasting time marking stuff only for it to get killed before I can trigger the attack sequence.  Essentially making ash a shoot at the enemy type frame or a weak stealth frame because he can't use his main kill enemies ability. 

IMO the rework in essence has tried to make ash a stealth frame over a damage frame but the problem there is that if I want a stealth frame I'll just grab loki, if I want a 'kill a lot of enemies at once' frame, I've got plenty of other choices which don't have the limitations imposed by the rework.

 

Actually having written the above it occurred to me that this rework plus the current stacks approach on nidus are not really suited to anything other than solo play styles, which goes completely against the idea of the game and the latest responses regarding hema and the 'clans must work together to get it'....

Edited January 27, 2017 by LSG501

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Kunsumption said:

Fair enough. But we really do need to get this rolling, my friends. If you own a clan, or know the clan master, get the message of the day to change to encourage the fix Ash really needs. Is nobody but Nazrethim replying now?

Oh wait, I now remember what was the point of

Killing Spree (Augment): Casting Teleport will initiate a killing spree allowing Ash to kill multiple enemies nearby. Mutually exclusive with Fatal Cadence. In practice casting teleport will initiate a minigame where Ash needs to press one of 3 (E, R, F) different inputs (one of them randomly selected for each window) quickly to chain-kill enemies (each window lasting about 1.5-2s), pressing the wrong key or running out of time will end the spree.

It's a slow as sh*t killing tool on it's own, but combined with my proposal for Blade Storm (creating one-attack clones on Finishers) would make it a manual version of old Blade Storm with Clones finishing dudes around you on each window (cause the windows would count as Finisher attacks of course), so instead of sleeping trough the Blade Storm you would have to be aware to press the button, and since there are 3 different buttons and randomly selected macros wouldn't be easy (or possible) to make.

 

Also, @AKKILLA still talks here too.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Nazrethim

[AKKILLA]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Oh wait, I now remember what was the point of

Killing Spree (Augment): Casting Teleport will initiate a killing spree allowing Ash to kill multiple enemies nearby. Mutually exclusive with Fatal Cadence. In practice casting teleport will initiate a minigame where Ash needs to press one of 3 (E, R, F) different inputs (one of them randomly selected for each window) quickly to chain-kill enemies (each window lasting about 1.5-2s), pressing the wrong key or running out of time will end the spree.

It's a slow as sh*t killing tool on it's own, but combined with my proposal for Blade Storm (creating one-attack clones on Finishers) would make it a manual version of old Blade Storm with Clones finishing dudes around you on each window (cause the windows would count as Finisher attacks of course), so instead of sleeping trough the Blade Storm you would have to be aware to press the button, and since there are 3 different buttons and randomly selected macros wouldn't be easy (or possible) to make.

 

Also, @AKKILLA still talks here too.

You know whats funny @Nazrethim? 

Me and a few homies are actually learning Blender to design a Blade Storm, we also spoke about designing an Ash mini Assassination Game. We should collaborate. Something that can show the community what happens when players work together positively. You have some nice ideas, sounds like Shinobi style from Ps2. Im sure all Ash fans know about Ninja games like Tenchu, Ninja Gaiden, Shinobi. All these games have similarities in abilities and game play.  

[Nazrethim]

54 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

You know whats funny @Nazrethim? 

Me and a few homies are actually learning Blender to design a Blade Storm, we also spoke about designing an Ash mini Assassination Game. We should collaborate. Something that can show the community what happens when players work together positively. You have some nice ideas, sounds like Shinobi style from Ps2. Im sure all Ash fans know about Ninja games like Tenchu, Ninja Gaiden, Shinobi. All these games have similarities in abilities and game play.  

That's... completely f-ing AWESOME!

You guys can use any idea I throw around here anytime. If you got some videos I would like to see. Hell, I was on the verge of learning how to program (which I know jack about) to get a WF-like debug build to have them working... until I got a new job that leaves me near dead. But you guys are awesome for actually trying it!

[AKKILLA]

37 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

That's... completely f-ing AWESOME!

You guys can use any idea I throw around here anytime. If you got some videos I would like to see. Hell, I was on the verge of learning how to program (which I know jack about) to get a WF-like debug build to have them working... until I got a new job that leaves me near dead. But you guys are awesome for actually trying it!

Contact me thru inbox we will talk, you can help and be a part of our project. I dont know jack either i just have good ideas and a vision, i can draw a bit and I am a Tattoo artist so i have a bit of creativity to offer. Im sure You can offer a good deal to this project

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I say make put bladestorm back the way it was but with two changes; one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players and two if you don`t want to see the animation press four again and you run around while the clones kill things and it is possible to do this because if you mark one enemy three times the other two marks you don’t do the clones do the two so the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. That`s just common sense.