DE, No More Frame Reworks Please. Just Stop

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 hours ago, Naqel said:

Consistency =/= homeganisation.

I can also assure you that the game would be infinitely better if things like accessing Rip-Line were a matter of flavor, and not tied permanently to Valkyr.

The whole problem people have with most of the current changes stems from the fact that DE wants to move away from "push button to not play the grind" ultimates, but it's really hard to do that while pleasing the crowd that they appealed to in the first place.

There is literally nothing having ultimates in the game brings to the table in terms of variety, that couldn't be achieved with smart use of weaker abilities. Hell for some frames(like Loki), the ultimate was so irrelevant to their identity or performance, that people wouldn't even slot it in, back when it was possible.

I used Invisibility and Disarm on Loki when skills were still mod cards.

[ChaellExE]

On 11/26/2016 at 9:23 AM, BattlemageXankjeli said:

As i mentioned in another post from my point of view it would be rather useful to set "Cooldowns" for certain skills that are currently OP, than reducing there effectiveness.

In the End those Ultimates are their "Ultimates" they should do something awesome, just not being every second available. Thereby it would be easy to look at the current Metabuilds of the warframes and accelerate cds on those skills... wouldn't it? :o

 

I do agree with you that ultimates should be ultimates, but I rather don't want DE to setup countdowns.
Especially with their way of rework "fixing / balance" is :

• more energy use per action -> energy per tick per action within the same skill + the initail energy use to activate the skill
• reducing of certain resources as whole but increasing the use thus forcing more farming
• RNG systems on RNG system on RNG systems
• % of whatever + max of 20% increase of percentage of whatever with a decrease somewhere else that isn't equally as good
• introducing awesome things then completely remove them or change them in a way that it becomes useless, but you have invested something thus it is meaningfull to you in a sense of having value but unusable in any other way
• Decreasing something with out an equal increase else where
• Reworking frames, one by one while introducing new frames and mechanics without taking those in mind = broken frames forever
• mandatory mods and forma's for something to be usable
• NERFS
• change something because it is populair
• and this list could go on and on

Edited November 28, 2016 by ChaellExE
missed a letter

[shootaman777]

1 minute ago, ChaellExE said:

 

I do agree with you that ultimates should be ultimates, but I rather don't want DE to setup countdowns.
Especially with their way of rework "fixing / balance" is :

• more energy use per action -> energy per tick per action within the same skill + the initail energy use of to activate the skill
• reducing of certain resources as whole but increasing the use thus forcing more farming
• RNG systems on RNG system on RNG systems
• % of whatever + max of 20% increase of percentage of whatever with a decrease somewhere else that isn't equally as good
• introducing awesome things then completely remove them or change them in a way that it becomes useless, but you have invested something thus it is meaningfull to you in a sense of having value but unusable in any other way
• Decreasing something with out an equal increase else where
• Reworking frames, one by one while introducing new frames and mechanics without taking those in mind = broken frames forever
• mandatory mods and forma's for something to be usable

Exactly.  DE has a nasty habit of just making things worse when they get involved, because of people like the person who you responded to complaining about how things need a nerf, whereas the people who are just fine with how things are don't hit the forums because they're just fine with how things are, then get blindsided by nerfs, like how they nerfed Mirage, Trinity, Volt, and Mag all at the same time a few months ago.  

The first bullet point sounds like what happened to Valkyr and Ash.  The second sounds like what happened with nitain.  The third sounds like the entire game.  The fourth, I don't really get what you're saying.  The fifth seems like it curtails nicely with your last point, of having to build for one specific build of something that is then removed from the game.  I can't tell you how annoying it is to have to forma OUT a polarity, or to forma a formad slot.  Yeah, Warframe is a mess right now, and the devs aren't really helping on the subject.  

[shootaman777]

Also, can we sign this post like a petition?  Is that a valid thing?  

[ChaellExE]

4 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Exactly.  DE has a nasty habit of just making things worse when they get involved, because of people like the person who you responded to complaining about how things need a nerf, whereas the people who are just fine with how things are don't hit the forums because they're just fine with how things are, then get blindsided by nerfs, like how they nerfed Mirage, Trinity, Volt, and Mag all at the same time a few months ago.  

The first bullet point sounds like what happened to Valkyr and Ash.  The second sounds like what happened with nitain.  The third sounds like the entire game.  The fourth, I don't really get what you're saying.  The fifth seems like it curtails nicely with your last point, of having to build for one specific build of something that is then removed from the game.  I can't tell you how annoying it is to have to forma OUT a polarity, or to forma a formad slot.  Yeah, Warframe is a mess right now, and the devs aren't really helping on the subject.  

Have you ever noted that you can't make crit build for most of the weapons besides the one that are OP in the first place or have base damages that even the crit dmg muliplier can't do anything? refrence to my 4th point

Edited November 28, 2016 by ChaellExE

[shootaman777]

5 minutes ago, ChaellExE said:

Have you ever noted that you can't make crit build for most of the weapons besides the one that are OP in the first place or have damages that even the crit dmg muliplier can't do nothing because the base is so low?

Actually, not with melee, thanks to Blood Rush, Maiming Strike, and Body Count.  I generally make melees that far outclass primaries.  
And it's a bit easier to make secondaries into crit builds, with Primed Target Cracker and that Primed crit chance mod.  
But with other classes of weapons that aren't melees or secondaries, yes.  I've noticed this.  
Essentially, I can only make crit builds for a few primaries, the ones that are already OP in the first place, yes.  

Edited November 28, 2016 by shootaman777

[(PSN)tater9tot06]

I may not be the best Saryn player out there but I sure as hell have alot of fun playing her and learning how she works , I was not here when she was "press 4 to win" but I agree with removing the cheese and making her abilities work together.

No one is forcing you to play her there are alot of options in WF :) 

Also are other frames who need the rework more than her.

Sorry if links are not allowed Mods or De can remove 

forgive my messy typing :)

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)tater9tot06 said:

No one is forcing you to play her

And no one was forcing the whiners to play her before the "rework." That argument works both ways.

I used to enjoy Saryn, now I doun't. I hate the concept of melee focused frames or needing to use a handful of specific "snowflake" weapons to be decent, such as how Zephyr is only good with the Tonkor.

[shootaman777]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)tater9tot06 said:

I may not be the best Saryn player out there but I sure as hell have alot of fun playing her and learning how she works , I was not here when she was "press 4 to win" but I agree with removing the cheese and making her abilities work together.

No one is forcing you to play her there are alot of options in WF :) 

Also are other frames who need the rework more than her.

Sorry if links are not allowed Mods or De can remove 

forgive my messy typing :)

 

I really hate it when people say 'don't like it, don't use it', or 'no one is forcing you to play her' or 'there are a lot of alternatives'.  It's essentially saying 'F*** your opinion, deal with how it is, and I don't care to hear how you think it should be'.  She was never really 'press 4 to win' where it counted, the endgame.  She did viral damage, not with the largest number of procs, so her damage fell off hugely against any armored targets.  She did lots of damage in short periods of time, based on how small your duration was.  Which is why the arcane helmet that decreased her duration was so valuable.  However, she was not broken.  Excalibur did better than her where it counted, in the endgame.  How many people demand nerfs to Excalibur's Radial Javelin?  Think about that.  

Plus, she never was, and still is not, survivable.  She can't solo now, because you have to either build for survivability or ability usage, and not having both results in a painful death.  And the way Saryn is, standstill ability spam is promoted, as casting her 1st on her Molt costs half the energy of casting it on an enemy.  

It's true that a lot of Warframes need reworks more than Saryn.  However, we're arguing that she didn't need a rework, and saying that we much would've preferred that DE had stayed away from how Saryn used to be and fixed a worse Warframe to be usable.  They only paid attention to her and reworked her because it was when her primed version came out that she was reworked.  I can tell you, it was the prime that I was least looking forward towards, because it came packaged with a large nerf.  I'd have preferred that she stay non-prime than be primed and nerfed.  As someone who wasn't here when she was 'press 4 to win', in your words, I don't know how you can say that she was 'press 4 to win', since you weren't here to know whether or not she was ever 'press 4 to win'.  You're just hopping on someone else's bandwagon, and it's sickening.  So, where did you get the opinion that Saryn was ever 'press 4 to win'?  Because I'd like to ask that person where they got their opinion.  If you got your opinion on Saryn, from someone who knows nothing about how Saryn was, then your opinion is entirely invalid anyways.  

You said you have a lot of fun playing her and learning how she works.  Try having fun bringing her to every sortie mission from now on.  Let me know how much fun you have constantly dying.  And being useless.  Please, let me know.  I'd love to hear it.  

[Tricky5hift]

Haha yeah thats not gonna happen.

[shootaman777]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

Haha yeah thats not gonna happen.

Sad but true.  

[Tricky5hift]

Just now, shootaman777 said:

Sad but true.  

On the contrary, I'm glad DE actually looks into changing abilites and updating them.

Bladestorm was a bullcrap ability and it needed to change.

Its amazing how it managed to stay in its previous iteration for so long.

[shootaman777]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

On the contrary, I'm glad DE actually looks into changing abilites and updating them.

Bladestorm was a bullcrap ability and it needed to change.

Its amazing how it managed to stay in its previous iteration for so long.

I'd beg to differ on that count.  Now, it's barely usable.  What exactly was your gripe about BS?  What exactly made it bullcrap, in your opinion?  

[Misgenesis]

16 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Try having fun bringing her to every sortie mission from now on.  Let me know how much fun you have constantly dying.  And being useless.  Please, let me know.  I'd love to hear it.  

If DE started to balance everything around sortie levels we would be going nowhere. Most frames cant take a hit at sortie levels, its not just Saryn.

[shootaman777]

8 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

If DE started to balance everything around sortie levels we would be going nowhere. Most frames cant take a hit at sortie levels, its not just Saryn.

Exactly, and this is where the logic of the person I responded to ("nobody's forcing you to play as Saryn") comes into play.  Because, what if I want to main Saryn?  What if, like other Warframes that have endgame builds, I want to make and use one for Saryn?  Well, there is no endgame build for Saryn, using Saryn as the sole agent of success.  And that's the problem I have with this Saryn 'rework' (nerf).  It takes it out of the endgame, entirely.  Saryn can take a hit, actually, if you build an armor/Pflow/QT/Rage/Vitality/Molt Augment build, and rather reliably.  However, with that build, you'd be better off with Inaros, because Inaros has abilities that synergise with being a tank, as opposed to Saryn, who once you use 5/8 mod slots just for survivability, the three remaining slots can't make your abilities good enough to hack it in the endgame.  However, an all-around build with a Saryn has little to no bulk, but can kill a lot of enemies, very quickly, with viral proc after viral proc.  In this case, a Saryn wouldn't be able to survive, though.  Meaning that any solo Saryn usage in the endgame is impossible.  I like soloing the endgame, so I don't like this.  And even with a team to support her, she'd still be dying constantly if she had an ability build rather than a tank build.  Which gets rather tiresome.  

In other words, now she's a bit SOL.  

Edited November 28, 2016 by shootaman777

[Tricky5hift]

25 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

I'd beg to differ on that count.  Now, it's barely usable.  What exactly was your gripe about BS?  What exactly made it bullcrap, in your opinion?  

Barely usable?

Buddy, you can still get a metric crap ton of kills without getting downed too often what the hell is barely usable about that???

My problem with Bladestorm was that it was the epitome of the "press 4 to win" problem and everyone defended it like it was their dying mother.

It was literally the most braindead(oof thats cold) ability of them all.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Tricky5hift

[shootaman777]

12 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

Barely usable?

Buddy, you can still get a metric crap ton of kills without getting downed too often what the hell is barely usable about that???

My problem with Bladestorm was that it was the epitome of the "press 4 to win" problem and everyone defended it like it was their dying mother.

It was literally the most braindead(oof thats cold) ability of them all.

In an endgame mission, however, you're almost certainly dead before you can use the ability to take out a sizeable amount of enemies, because that's just the thing - you can't catch everything.  And an Ash isn't the most survivable Warframe.  Unless one runs the universal flow/QT/Rage/armor/Vitality build, which takes the point out of modding, since it removes build diversity.  

True, it was a braindead ability.  Completely agreed.  You can still get kills, but certainly not a metric ton.  And getting downed happens fairly often.  

True, people spamming 4 with Ash was quite boring.  However, that's not how I used Ash.  I used Ash for his passive, and the only time I used his 4th was as an oh s**t button.  I didn't designate myself as the mass slaughterer and hit 4 a few times while watching a YouTube video.  Now, if I ever get caught out as an Ash, I'm pretty much screwed 6 ways to Sunday.  

Everyone defended "press 4 to win" like it was their dying mother?  I most certainly did and do not.  However, now as an Ash, I'm stuck using a pointless ability, Smokescreen, to give me time to target enemies, if I want to use BS.  The energy cost goes up, with fewer returns in terms of dead enemies.  Additionally, I'd have to mod for duration, conflicting with Fleeting Expertise's duration reduction, so the energy cost goes up even higher.  

At that point, this 'rework' crosses the line between rework and nerf, and for what?  To punish people for a playstyle that the metagame encourages, ability spam in set-piece action?  

I'd be better off using Fatal Teleport and Covert Lethality, for all the good using Ash will do me.  And then, what's the point of using Ash to build for a niche ability with an augment and a s***ty dagger?  

Edited November 28, 2016 by shootaman777

[Misgenesis]

2 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Exactly, and this is where the logic of the person I responded to ("nobody's forcing you to play as Saryn") comes into play.  Because, what if I want to main Saryn?  What if, like other Warframes that have endgame builds, I want to make and use one for Saryn?  Well, there is no endgame build for Saryn, using Saryn as the sole agent of success.  And that's the problem I have with this Saryn 'rework' (nerf).  It takes it out of the endgame, entirely.  Saryn can take a hit, actually, if you build an armor/Pflow/QT/Rage/Vitality/Molt Augment build, and rather reliably.  However, with that build, you'd be better off with Inaros, because Inaros has abilities that synergise with being a tank, as opposed to Saryn, who once you use 5/8 mod slots just for survivability, the three remaining slots can't make your abilities good enough to hack it in the endgame.  However, an all-around build with a Saryn has little to no bulk, but can kill a lot of enemies, very quickly, with viral proc after viral proc.  In this case, a Saryn wouldn't be able to survive, though.  Meaning that any solo Saryn usage in the endgame is impossible.  I like soloing the endgame, so I don't like this.  And even with a team to support her, she'd still be dying constantly if she had an ability build rather than a tank build.  Which gets rather tiresome.  

Fair enough, ive mained Saryn since her release myself. But i believe WF is a game in which you just have to change your gear to fit the situation, especially solo.

I have to disagree on Saryns rework being a 'nerf'. Compared to old Miasma, which was pure damage, Spore scales endlessly and with how easy it is to spread its a buff in my books. Not to mention that a bug like that shouldnt be what makes a frame good.

[Tricky5hift]

Just now, shootaman777 said:

In an endgame mission, however, you're almost certainly dead before you can use the ability to take out a sizeable amount of enemies, because that's just the thing - you can't catch everything.  And an Ash isn't the most survivable Warframe.  Unless one runs the universal flow/QT/Rage/armor/Vitality build, which takes the point out of modding, since it removes build diversity.  

True, it was a braindead ability.  Completely agreed.  You can still get kills, but certainly not a metric ton.  And getting downed happens fairly often.  

True, people spamming 4 with Ash was quite boring.  However, that's not how I used Ash.  I used Ash for his passive, and the only time I used his 4th was as an oh s**t button.  I didn't designate myself as the mass slaughterer and hit 4 a few times while watching a YouTube video.  Now, if I ever get caught out as an Ash, I'm pretty much screwed 6 ways to Sunday.  

Everyone defended "press 4 to win" like it was their dying mother?  I most certainly did and do not.  However, now as an Ash, I'm stuck using a pointless ability, Smokescreen, to give me time to target enemies, if I want to use BS.  The energy cost goes up, with fewer returns in terms of dead enemies.  Additionally, I'd have to mod for duration, conflicting with Fleeting Expertise's duration reduction, so the energy cost goes up even higher.  I'd be better off using Fatal Teleport and Covert Lethality, for all the good using Ash will do me.  And then, what's the point of using Ash to build for a niche ability with an augment and a S#&$ty dagger?  

Thats what Smokescreen is for...

Yeah how convenient for a damage-dealing monster like Ash to have invisibility...

He actually has some real synergy in his kit now. Playing him now reminds me a lot of Zer0 from Borderlands 2.

[Aridum]

I haven't played or seen how this rework... works yet. But from the way the DE and players describe it, it sounds far to convoluted to simply kill a couple of enemies. I'm on the fence on this, but I'm really starting to lean on hating this.  Strictly on the fence.

[StinkyPygmy]

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

I really hate it when people say 'don't like it, don't use it', or 'no one is forcing you to play her' or 'there are a lot of alternatives'.  It's essentially saying 'F*** your opinion, deal with how it is, and I don't care to hear how you think it should be'.  She was never really 'press 4 to win' where it counted, the endgame.  She did viral damage, not with the largest number of procs, so her damage fell off hugely against any armored targets.  She did lots of damage in short periods of time, based on how small your duration was.  Which is why the arcane helmet that decreased her duration was so valuable.  However, she was not broken.  Excalibur did better than her where it counted, in the endgame.  How many people demand nerfs to Excalibur's Radial Javelin?  Think about that.  

Plus, she never was, and still is not, survivable.  She can't solo now, because you have to either build for survivability or ability usage, and not having both results in a painful death.  And the way Saryn is, standstill ability spam is promoted, as casting her 1st on her Molt costs half the energy of casting it on an enemy.  

It's true that a lot of Warframes need reworks more than Saryn.  However, we're arguing that she didn't need a rework, and saying that we much would've preferred that DE had stayed away from how Saryn used to be and fixed a worse Warframe to be usable.  They only paid attention to her and reworked her because it was when her primed version came out that she was reworked.  I can tell you, it was the prime that I was least looking forward towards, because it came packaged with a large nerf.  I'd have preferred that she stay non-prime than be primed and nerfed.  As someone who wasn't here when she was 'press 4 to win', in your words, I don't know how you can say that she was 'press 4 to win', since you weren't here to know whether or not she was ever 'press 4 to win'.  You're just hopping on someone else's bandwagon, and it's sickening.  So, where did you get the opinion that Saryn was ever 'press 4 to win'?  Because I'd like to ask that person where they got their opinion.  If you got your opinion on Saryn, from someone who knows nothing about how Saryn was, then your opinion is entirely invalid anyways.  

You said you have a lot of fun playing her and learning how she works.  Try having fun bringing her to every sortie mission from now on.  Let me know how much fun you have constantly dying.  And being useless.  Please, let me know.  I'd love to hear it.  

Thats funny because I solo sortes with her on the regular. But hey, what would I know? Only been playing this game for the last 3 years.

[shootaman777]

1 minute ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Thats funny because I solo sortes with her on the regular. But hey, what would I know? Only been playing this game for the last 3 years.

I solo sorties with her, but it depends on the sortie.  I'm just exaggerating a bit to make a point.  I usually pair her with other things to compensate for her abilities or lack thereof in the endgame, and I was talking about with just her, as opposed to what she's paired with.  

[StinkyPygmy]

19 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

I solo sorties with her, but it depends on the sortie.  I'm just exaggerating a bit to make a point.  I usually pair her with other things to compensate for her abilities or lack thereof in the endgame, and I was talking about with just her, as opposed to what she's paired with.  

Well I manage it without a synoid similor or tonkor if thats your point. The thing is, as someone who has mained both her and banshee since they were released I can say that without a doubt, if you know what you're doing and set yourself up right (like with any frame) then she is more then endgame(TM) applicable. I use the term endgame loosely because not only do we have a distinct lack of endgame(TM), but no one can seem to agree on exactly what that is.

I cast spore and toxic lash, I slap some dudes with my duel Ichors, drop misama occasionally and wham bam thats a map of level 100 dudes with their faces melted off. Sortie done. The results speak for themselves. 

[Larvatheoz]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 5:56 AM, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

The thing is, when they get it wrong, it tends to stay that way or they issue some bandaid fixes then leave it to decay for a year or two instead of frequently fine-tuning until they get everything into a fully functional state.

It´s not just the warframes skills but a lot of stuff on the game. I believe in my personal point of view.... idk what others believes but.... i agree they can stop adding new content and concéntrate on the things that already are in the game as playable content.

Some clear examples can be the music, some worthless mods, reality in the planets sky and enviroment, weapons, the NINJAS designs... because since oberon they look like medieval knights instead of ninjas... not even the stalker could be saved.... hes a medieval ninja now....

The Clipping of the syandanas and capes with the weapons, the accents of the armors with the syandanas... same accents please!... some aspects of the melee 2.0, ordis not giving any useful info just noise contamination almost all the time, codex, and so many other stuff that i believe it does needs attention, before adding things like this:

With the new Operator system in The War Within, lots of fans had questions about what is to come with this new mechanic. Here’s a quick rundown of our answers:
Yes, Operators in Relays will come soon.
You will be able to pet your Kavat/Kubrow as the Operator in the future. ( Quoted from https://warframe.com/news/devstream-83-overview ).

I love WARFRAME ít´s a very good game i enjoy playing it but yes i cant be more agree with the idea they maybe should stop and look at his beauty that they have created and care for that beauty not adding things to it; but making it so much perfect in the aspects that already have right now.

That said... I remark my point  already told in other posts: I can really care less of the operator or to pet the kubrows.... i do care about the main game 1st idea the space NINJAS and the tennos (the real people behind the keyboard). Also game mechanics, aesthetics and renovation of the game as it was before the introduction of the operator to the game.

Greetings Tennos!

Edited November 28, 2016 by Larvatheoz

[Voltage]

On 11/26/2016 at 6:59 AM, Kagisnad said:

a stagnant game is a dead game

a game without changes is a stagnant game

warframe is not a stagnant game

it's frustrating to see your favorite frame changed, but understand the necessity. the day DE stops reworking, rebalancing, and re-thinking the game, is the day warframe dies.

games do die when Devs do not please it's players though. Sure sometimes you need to take the heat for much needed changes such as ash, BUT sortie changes, the riven system, and the delays of major updates BY MONTHS that take 1 HOUR to complete doesn't show efficiency. All I am saying is that this nerf was needed, but ~60% of the reworks DE does are not very good. DE has nerfed:

Prova

Limbo

Hydroid

Mag TWICE (Gmag, Rework)

Mirage TWICE

Excalibur

Trinity

Nekros

and more ....

U17.0.4
- The drop rates from the Pilfering Swarm Augment Mod will no longer be affected by Power Strength.
U18.4.12
- The Rift and its interaction with hacking terminals has now been consistently applied to be not-hackable.
U19
- Reduced the damage of the Static Discharge Mod due to the Prova dealing (at least) 5 ticks of damage during the charge attack.

Edited November 28, 2016 by -1459.Voltage-