Can we please nerf Mirage + Simulor?

[Kintair]

Okay. So many people who need to see this but I don't feel like digging through the thread to reply to them all.

While people saying that one's mission-to-mission game experience suffers from the *presence* of some overly-powerful weapon, frame, or combination thereof is a valid concern, it is not the true reason why outliers like Simulor+Mirage NEED to be brought into check.

The reason the problem can't be solved ONLY by playing solo or with predefined groups, or leaving every time you see a Mirage, etc. is because the very existence of ANYTHING that trivializes content is a threat to EVERY other weapon, frame, and playstyle. If this outlier is allowed to exist, then further additional content or balance tweaks will raise the difficulty of the game to account for this, in an attempt to make it so that this weapon/frame/etc. no longer trivializes the game. This will continue to the point where less "effective" strategies become completely ineffective, until this outlier becomes the standard by which everything else is measured. THIS IS A BAD THING. This is how, even if I personally never see a Mirage holding a Simulor ever again, that combination can STILL RUIN MY GAME EXPERIENCE.

Balance in a game is a GOOD THING. Yes, even in PVE. Not all weapons need to be equal, but when something lies so far outside the power "curve", it needs to be brought in check.

[UncaIroh]

On 12/5/2016 at 3:06 PM, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

And also, mirage have been nerfed before. She was able to shoot 5 balls at once, each clone can shoot a simulor ball. Now only 2 of her clones can (meaning 3 balls including herself), and now you want to nerf her again? 

Yes, basically any overly convenient combo/power needs to be adjusted or DE will have to deal with the question "Is this going to be better than mirage + simulor (or whatever meta weapon/power is currently dominant)?" 

By bringing down the combo closer to where it's supposed to be in the game's power progression, DE won't have to worry about any new weapons being overshadowed by some ancient combo.

I'm pretty confident DE's looking at how to adjust the combo already, it's too convenient to get overlooked for balancing.

[Fast_98]

3 minutes ago, Kintair said:

Okay. So many people who need to see this but I don't feel like digging through the thread to reply to them all.

While people saying that one's mission-to-mission game experience suffers from the *presence* of some overly-powerful weapon, frame, or combination thereof is a valid concern, it is not the true reason why outliers like Simulor+Mirage NEED to be brought into check.

The reason the problem can't be solved ONLY by playing solo or with predefined groups, or leaving every time you see a Mirage, etc. is because the very existence of ANYTHING that trivializes content is a threat to EVERY other weapon, frame, and playstyle. If this outlier is allowed to exist, then further additional content or balance tweaks will raise the difficulty of the game to account for this, in an attempt to make it so that this weapon/frame/etc. no longer trivializes the game. This will continue to the point where less "effective" strategies become completely ineffective, until this outlier becomes the standard by which everything else is measured. THIS IS A BAD THING. This is how, even if I personally never see a Mirage holding a Simulor ever again, that combination can STILL RUIN MY GAME EXPERIENCE.

Balance in a game is a GOOD THING. Yes, even in PVE. Not all weapons need to be equal, but when something lies so far outside the power "curve", it needs to be brought in check.

How will you fix it then? You going to nerf the simulor which isn't even op in other frames hands as it take it 15 sec to kill a level 100 gunner but you're willing to let mirage go? 

Mirage will just go and use a new aoe weapon and this same thread will pop up in a week. Heck just look at this thread everyone is extremely BIAS even me. Either you think this weapons is Satan work or you think it god greatest gift. The most simplist rework would be so that the clones can't interact with each other's orbs which destroy this combination and allow both weapon and mirage to continue being good but instead we have 20+ page rage war happening.

[Kintair]

1 hour ago, Fast_98 said:

How will you fix it then? You going to nerf the simulor which isn't even op in other frames hands as it take it 15 sec to kill a level 100 gunner but you're willing to let mirage go? 

Mirage will just go and use a new aoe weapon and this same thread will pop up in a week. Heck just look at this thread everyone is extremely BIAS even me. Either you think this weapons is Satan work or you think it god greatest gift. The most simplist rework would be so that the clones can't interact with each other's orbs which destroy this combination and allow both weapon and mirage to continue being good but instead we have 20+ page rage war happening.

You are right that I didn't include a potential fix in my post. That wasn't the aim. The aim was to get people to stop trying to deny that there is a problem. The first step toward fixing a problem is admitting there is one, after all.

But since you asked... Perhaps remove the "blast" AoE from joining singularities entirely and up their DPS? So it becomes less of a general-purpose nuke and more of a strategist's weapon. Or maybe shift it so the blast happens upon destruction of the singularities, rather than creation/addition? That might be better, since detonation could still be achieved on demand by the alt-fire. And then make the blast deal self-damage to discourage spam, since you'd have plenty of time to get away from one, but if they were all over...

As for Mirage using another AoE weapon, that's fine. With almost (*stares at Tonkor*) every other AoE weapon self-damage is a real issue. That's the tradeoff. With Mirage, there's three times the AoE and damage, but also three times the danger of hitting yourself with your own AoE. A powerful combination with a powerful drawback you need to be careful to avoid. That feels fair to me.

[(PSN)SageHeed]

2 hours ago, Kintair said:

Okay. So many people who need to see this but I don't feel like digging through the thread to reply to them all.

While people saying that one's mission-to-mission game experience suffers from the *presence* of some overly-powerful weapon, frame, or combination thereof is a valid concern, it is not the true reason why outliers like Simulor+Mirage NEED to be brought into check.

The reason the problem can't be solved ONLY by playing solo or with predefined groups, or leaving every time you see a Mirage, etc. is because the very existence of ANYTHING that trivializes content is a threat to EVERY other weapon, frame, and playstyle. If this outlier is allowed to exist, then further additional content or balance tweaks will raise the difficulty of the game to account for this, in an attempt to make it so that this weapon/frame/etc. no longer trivializes the game. This will continue to the point where less "effective" strategies become completely ineffective, until this outlier becomes the standard by which everything else is measured. THIS IS A BAD THING. This is how, even if I personally never see a Mirage holding a Simulor ever again, that combination can STILL RUIN MY GAME EXPERIENCE.

Balance in a game is a GOOD THING. Yes, even in PVE. Not all weapons need to be equal, but when something lies so far outside the power "curve", it needs to be brought in check.

This ought to be required reading. It's good stuff.

[achromos]

4 hours ago, DxAdder said:

Yes, now you get it.

If you Join a PUG there is NO guarantee that your are going to make any significant contribute if your not a running a meta setup or if other members of the PUG Are running a Meta set-up.

If you want to see a massive kill count go Solo, but in a PUG you are in direct competition with three other people for kills so bring your A game setup or get left in the dust.

Don't come to the boards and ask that everybody to play the game with mastery fodder weapons & frames.

 

 

 

Ok so obviously everything other then Mirage + Simulor is Mastery fodder.  Got it DxAdder.  Understood, hey... when are you going to petition to DE to rename Warframe to MirageFrame: The Second Simulor?

 

 

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, Kintair said:

But since you asked... Perhaps remove the "blast" AoE from joining singularities entirely and up their DPS? So it becomes less of a general-purpose nuke and more of a strategist's weapon. Or maybe shift it so the blast happens upon destruction of the singularities, rather than creation/addition? That might be better, since detonation could still be achieved on demand by the alt-fire. And then make the blast deal self-damage to discourage spam, since you'd have plenty of time to get away from one, but if they were all over...

That would completely destroy the Simulor as a viable weapon for large parts of the game.

Basically unless you're completely stationary, it would be useless as you'd need to fire four or five shots before it did any damage at all.

I think the best 'solution' would be to treat the orbs from Mirage's clones like multishot, so that they are already considered merged with Mirage's shot and don't get the blast damage, but they do contribute to forming a singularity.

[(PSN)W0Wbaggr]

Forgive me for not having read the whole thread, but isn't the problem with Mirage using Synoid Simulor that she can pretty much instantly form singularities? What if the projectiles she and her clones fire didn't merge with each other, thereby forcing her to spend more time creating singularities in any one place? At the moment, it feels like she can be everywhere at once, leaving nothing for others to do, and it's therefore mind-numbingly boring to play in a squad with one.

Edited December 9, 2016 by (PS4)W0Wbaggr

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

13 hours ago, tnkfreexx3 said:

Playing in a public game with a mirage and her simulor, who basically taking all the enemies away from the map, leaving her team mates just walk around with nothing to do, and you are telling me that i should leave the team if i don't like it?

what is the point to play in public? so i can afk for the most of the game? or it is for some fun team play?

seriously they need to do something with that mirage and simulor combo. 

God. I really hate people like you. people who think that their feeling are more important that everyone else's and cry about something not going their way. sickening.

[ChuckMaverick]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)W0Wbaggr said:

Forgive me for not having read the whole thread, but isn't the problem with Mirage using Synoid Simulor that she can pretty much instantly form singularities? What if the projectiles she and her clones fire didn't merge with each other, thereby forcing her to spend more time creating singularities in any one place? At the moment, it feels like she can be everywhere at once, leaving nothing for others to do, and it's therefore mind-numbingly boring to play in a squad with one.

The problem is not so much with the singularities, but the damage from the orbs combining.

While stopping Mirage's clones' orbs from combining would reduce the merging damage, it would also create three times as many singularities on the screen, and for many people the visual clutter is a big part of the problem.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The problem is not so much with the singularities, but the damage from the orbs combining.

While stopping Mirage's clones' orbs from combining would reduce the merging damage, it would also create three times as many singularities on the screen, and for many people the visual clutter is a big part of the problem.

In that case, having the clone shots act as multishots would fix both problems.  Mirage would spend more time forming vortexes and there would be fewer on screen to bleach your eyeballs with.  The weapon would be unaffected in the hands of another frame, and mirage would be unaffected with another weapon.

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

5 hours ago, Kintair said:

Okay. So many people who need to see this but I don't feel like digging through the thread to reply to them all.

While people saying that one's mission-to-mission game experience suffers from the *presence* of some overly-powerful weapon, frame, or combination thereof is a valid concern, it is not the true reason why outliers like Simulor+Mirage NEED to be brought into check.

The reason the problem can't be solved ONLY by playing solo or with predefined groups, or leaving every time you see a Mirage, etc. is because the very existence of ANYTHING that trivializes content is a threat to EVERY other weapon, frame, and playstyle. If this outlier is allowed to exist, then further additional content or balance tweaks will raise the difficulty of the game to account for this, in an attempt to make it so that this weapon/frame/etc. no longer trivializes the game. This will continue to the point where less "effective" strategies become completely ineffective, until this outlier becomes the standard by which everything else is measured. THIS IS A BAD THING. This is how, even if I personally never see a Mirage holding a Simulor ever again, that combination can STILL RUIN MY GAME EXPERIENCE.

Balance in a game is a GOOD THING. Yes, even in PVE. Not all weapons need to be equal, but when something lies so far outside the power "curve", it needs to be brought in check.

Just one thing. I tried using mirage simulor against 8 level 105 heavy gunners. it took forever. I can just use exalted blade and radial blind and take down those same enemies in seconds. also mag/lanka and banshee/atterax. 

[S0V3REiGN]

 

31 minutes ago, (PS4)TheANSER-42 said:

Just one thing. I tried using mirage simulor against 8 level 105 heavy gunners. it took forever. I can just use exalted blade and radial blind and take down those same enemies in seconds. also mag/lanka and banshee/atterax. 

It's simple, you have the wrong build, I can clean entire maps of level 100+ heavies in seconds. I know the damage it can do, there is a reason why it's meta.

[(PSN)Tsion]

17 hours ago, tnkfreexx3 said:

Playing in a public game with a mirage and her simulor, who basically taking all the enemies away from the map, leaving her team mates just walk around with nothing to do, and you are telling me that i should leave the team if i don't like it?

what is the point to play in public? so i can afk for the most of the game? or it is for some fun team play?

seriously they need to do something with that mirage and simulor combo. 

I'm saying, finish the mission and move onto the next map. I rarely run into Mirage Simulor combos unless I'm running the "special' event at that time or the would be relic farms of the Meta. (I'm looking at you Hieracon) I do think it takes away from the fun of killing something but that's typically because it's a lower lower level mission. It's no different than running with an Ember who's got World of Fire or an Equinox with his bleed up. Things die and you either just walk past it or hope said frame moves along. I've never seen any issues with any of these frames on the higher tier missions as they add a quick bit of AOE stun for the other frames to finish the job. 

If you wanted my opinion on how this could be fixed if it was deemed a community issue, than just make the Simulor projectile sources separate from each other and therefore unable to combine for the blast. (ex. Clones = Purple, You = Red, Team Mates = Green and can only join with themselves) I'm sure the coding on such an endeavor would be a pain in the buttox, but it would stop the whole idea of INSTA NUKES and keep the weapon / frame where they both are. . .in a good place. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by (PS4)Tsion

[DxAdder]

6 hours ago, achromos said:

Ok so obviously everything other then Mirage + Simulor is Mastery fodder.  Got it DxAdder.  Understood, hey... when are you going to petition to DE to rename Warframe to MirageFrame: The Second Simulor?

Your are referring to just one of many Meta Setups that exist. There are many.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Tsion said:

Playing in a public game with a mirage and her simulor, who basically taking all the enemies away from the map, leaving her team mates just walk around with nothing to do, and you are telling me that i should leave the team if i don't like it?

what is the point to play in public? so i can afk for the most of the game? or it is for some fun team play?

seriously they need to do something with that mirage and simulor combo. 

In a 4 man PUG you are competing with three other people for Kills, If you can't pull at least 25% of the kills go get better gear.

 

[CaptainEras]

I wonder if the OP was around at the beginning of Mirage when it really was a 'kill all' frame . . . then it got nerfed and fell into line with the other frames.

As for the Simulor ? c'mon, i think some here are 'bigging up' its capabilities. OK! . .it has some power but I'll take my Ignis or Vaykor Hek. I think that the Simulor is very much a noobs weapon as they can just point it in a vague direction and fire.

I'll just slip on my 'arrogance' hat and let you into a little secret.

Take a fully pollied Ignis for sweeper killing up to around the level 35-40 enemies. Then switch to a fully pollied Sonigor, which will clear anything above that level. Take a Broken War or Kesheg as the melee . . . fully pollied, of course. Make three mod builds for each weapon for the three kinds of enemy and check which one you need for the mission, although these weapons modded just to max power will handle any mission.

The real power in this rig is using the Ignis for up to a certain level and the Sonigor after.

I have tried all 'Blast' weapons but they are limited in controlling every eventuality. The Ignis isn't, and anyone who disagrees doesn't know how to 'fully polly' the weapon. In missions I have seen many comments like; "what the hell is he using" ? as I clear everything in sight over and over again.

Last point. Try a 4x pollied Titania. The Razorwing ability makes Mirage's abilities small time by comparison as it will take down anything instantly. Level 100+ become small fry as she flies around zapping every super trooper in sight with not one of them making a mark on her. However, your gameplay here matters. I keep around 100 of each restore at all times so it's easy to keep max energy up without relying on help from squad mates . . . this is needed to keep Titania's Razorwing permanently on point.

Edited December 9, 2016 by CaptainEras

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

2 hours ago, S0V3REiGN said:

 

It's simple, you have the wrong build, I can clean entire maps of level 100+ heavies in seconds. I know the damage it can do, there is a reason why it's meta.

But Excalibur and banshee can do the same thing.

[White_Matter]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Tsion said:

This argument reminds me of the ol' Saryn just hitting 4 to win epidemic. People getting mad that someone found an insanely efficient way to kill things in a game about killing things. If someone wants to run around spamming that god awful noise of a gun, let 'em. Play the game the way you want to play it. If you don't like playing with someone using that combo then leave the group and move on. 

Ya'll complain a lot about things working the way they were intended. 

"If you don't like it then leave."

I love productive posts like these.

20 hours ago, (PS4)TheANSER-42 said:

I actually don't use it very often.

Sure you don't champ.

[White_Matter]

I'm also totally fine with removing one thing from the game to make tens of other things relevant. 

So I don't care if they tweak simulor and turn it into an awful weapon. It is not the end of world. I built simulor, used it a couple of times and shelved it never to use it again. This game can be played without the horrible mirage simulor meta. I repeat, this game can be played without simulor. And if by doing so, you improve the overall gameplay of individuals and the group, then I see no reason why not. Just nerf the damage, cap the orbs, and prevent Mirage's illusions from firing the orbs. It would still be a viable weapon outside sorties or endless missions.

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by White_Matter

[Rolunde]

Maybe if Mirage's Clones were turned into a solely defensive ability that could really help bridge the gap between the sort of "2 sides" here

1 - Mirage+SS = "too OP"
vs
2 - Mirage is too squish, she's a dps frame it's all she's got. It's "kill or be killed out there"

1+2 =

3 - Clones no longer adding any form of damage boosting interaction but mitigation. They could act similar to the Amesha archwing's "Watchful Swarm" ability/power absorbing damage that would be taken by Mirage boosting her survivability. 

Cheers.
~R~

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Rolunde said:

Maybe if Mirage's Clones were turned into a solely defensive ability that could really help bridge the gap between the sort of "2 sides" here

1 - Mirage+SS = "too OP"
vs
2 - Mirage is too squish, she's a dps frame it's all she's got. It's "kill or be killed out there"

1+2 =

3 - Clones no longer adding any form of damage boosting interaction but mitigation. They could act similar to the Amesha archwing's "Watchful Swarm" ability/power absorbing damage that would be taken by Mirage boosting her survivability. 

Cheers.
~R~

Nope, you're proposing a complete rework of an ability just because of its interaction with one weapon. There are much better fixes.

[DxAdder]

26 minutes ago, Rolunde said:

Maybe if Mirage's Clones were turned into a solely defensive ability that could really help bridge the gap between the sort of "2 sides" here

1 - Mirage+SS = "too OP"
vs
2 - Mirage is too squish, she's a dps frame it's all she's got. It's "kill or be killed out there"

1+2 =

3 - Clones no longer adding any form of damage boosting interaction but mitigation. They could act similar to the Amesha archwing's "Watchful Swarm" ability/power absorbing damage that would be taken by Mirage boosting her survivability. 

Cheers.
~R~

Won't Matter in the least.. Sure a frame and/or a weapon get turned into Mastery Fodder, we just move on to the next Meta Set-up.

All that will happen is that people who have invested time and forma in the Mirage & Simulor may quit the game since they won't get anything for compensation for the nerfs.

And this is why Nerf things is toxic to this game, people quit every time they nerf something.

 

 

 

[Rolunde]

37 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Nope, you're proposing a complete rework of an ability just because of its interaction with one weapon. There are much better fixes.

Such as... ?

and apologies if you already made some suggestions, the thread's too long and honestly I care too little to go back and re-read everything.

But clearly something needs to happen this thread has done on for almost a week now and 21 pages and at this point seems to be heading more towards repeating the same things said already and/or starting to pick at each other and throw out that good old word "toxic" =p

Cheers
~R~

Edited December 9, 2016 by Rolunde

[SenariousNex]

On 12/7/2016 at 0:32 PM, SolaireTheSunWalker said:

yep pretty much the same for me I dont like the setup but I also dont care if someone uses it because its only good early/mid game. 

On a side note most frames would get completely rekt against lv145 Battalysts

Praise The Fun.

[(PSN)Tsion]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

"If you don't like it then leave."

I love productive posts like these.

 

You just love to think things need to change because you don't agree with them. I'm open to a discussion but the fact remains that the Weapon and the Frame are working as intended. Just because the interaction kills things better than people not using the combo doesn't mean it's bad. This argument is equivalent to saying "We should stop High Level players from being allowed in low level areas because they'll steal my kills. Rabble Rabble Blah Blah!" If you jump into a public match and get someone with Mirage + Simulor combo then just finish that mission and go into the next one. Nowhere in that statement did I say just Abandon the Mission. Finish what you came to do and remake the group. It's a multiplayer game with everyone doing their thing and playing their own way. You don't always get to be the All Star there Smashmouth. 

Plus, what missions are you all running where 1 PERSON is doing all the work? Not once have I run a mission and felt like I wasn't doing anything. If that's your experience then you're clearly doing something off.

Edited December 9, 2016 by (PS4)Tsion