Such a thing as "entry level" endgame?

[(PSN)Keaurl]

I'm sure this has been questioned ad nauseam, so i'll just get to the point that i'm only asking if there is any updated benchmark for when something becomes "endgame worthy", for personal evaluation. A lot of people used to throw around the whole 1hr+ of T4 survival being their endgame entry point, and then others denounced this for other definitions like being able to rack in ten hours of survival to get your name on a leaderboard being considered endgame, or litterally having nothing left to do but play syandana dressup. I'm just looking for a circumstance of relative difficulty.

When the star chart got updated there were some who said they found Mot to be way harder than the old T4S used to be, and said even with frames like Chroma they could barely make it half an hour, when they could go one hour plus before. I just want to know if there is any given benchmark, beyond which a pro would call a given piece of gear endgame worthy. What is that point considered currently, just for the personal purposes of someone like me?

Edited December 7, 2016 by (PS4)Keaurl

[shut]

I'd put it as anything that can be fought ingame without having to do an obscenely long Endless mission.

For example, Stage 3 Sorties. These were actually intended to be endgame by DE (except we're able to cheese through them so easily that most people don't consider Sorties to be true endgame at all).

Edited December 7, 2016 by SortaRandom

[Skollolol]

Personal opinion, 40 minutes in a lvl 40 Survival is pretty much endgame.

Going significantly beyond that pidgeon-holes you into a few specific choices.

[(XBOX)BigQuadTodd]

for me, its when I pass that lvl 100, thats when things get very challenging, for me at least, like if you reload in front of a detron crewman, theres no hope for you

[(PSN)Keaurl]

10 minutes ago, Skollolol said:

Going significantly beyond that pidgeon-holes you into a few specific choices.

Word! And therein lies the conundrum for trying to reach the same relative points with a frame that actually fits your desired style, rather than exploiting what is proven...personally.

But it seems all three opinions so far are still around the general 100 level enemy point. Throw in a few eximus's...s's's's for good measure...awesome, back to pushing myself!

[(XBOX)BigQuadTodd]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Keaurl said:

Throw in a few eximus's...s's's's for good measure...awesome, back to pushing myself!

what frame are you going to use? just wondering

[(PSN)Keaurl]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)TomTheImperator said:

what frame are you going to use? just wondering

Sure, i'm a Rhino fan. I know he gets a lot of flak, but i most enjoy the straight out combat frames. I find it most fun to just see how long i can actually fight survive and kill effectively in a straight out battle without relying on abilities to finish anyone off. Stealth isnt out of the question, just not nearly as much a fan...

lol, also aware he's generally not considered anywhere near endgame, just my personal fav

Edited December 7, 2016 by (PS4)Keaurl

[Skollolol]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Keaurl said:

Word! And therein lies the conundrum for trying to reach the same relative points with a frame that actually fits your desired style, rather than exploiting what is proven...personally.

 

Frame choice can be rendered largely inconsequential...if you pick Naramon :S

 

[Mattoropael]

23 minutes ago, (Xbox One)TomTheImperator said:

for me, its when I pass that lvl 100, thats when things get very challenging, for me at least, like if you reload in front of a detron crewman, theres no hope for you

Detrons aren't even the worst. Try not killing a level 100 Corpus Tech before he nukes you with his uber-Supra.

[Skollolol]

Just now, Mattoropael said:

Detrons aren't even the worst. Try not killing a level 100 Corpus Tech before he nukes you with his uber-Supra.

The Mine/Sapping Ospreys are what gets me.

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

Detrons aren't even the worst.

i don't think that was the point - i think the point was they are a fairly high Damage Enemy, and if you need to Reload in the middle of Killing one of them, something is clearly wrong because they are a Trash Unit.

[Coaa]

3 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

Detrons aren't even the worst. Try not killing a level 100 Corpus Tech before he nukes you with his uber-Supra.

Couldn't agree more. Corpus have to have the most BS mechanics out of all the factions. Yes napalms and bombers can suck but nothing gets me as much as immunosphere, atomic mines or at around level 100+ just hearing the very first bullet come out of supersupra that is actually firing world enders at you.

I cant think of anything in the game that'll nuke you as fast as a corpus tech at high levels. The second you miss one you are dead.

[Cortanis]

I think the question in of itself is kind of loaded when it comes to the game.

Fashion frame in and of itself is another challenge to the game that has nothing to do with the game really. How well you can put together a style can be a fun challenge and you really can only gauge how well you're doing by the feedback of others.

Actual gameplay as an end game is even more so of a challenge. The problem is the question of "why?"  Since the void became the defacto drop location for high end loot, it has been the location to go. The more skilled and game breaking the player base became, the more the devs had to increase the difficulty, challenge, and grade of loot being dropped. This became a complicated dance between the player base and the devs. That is, until the devs started to look at the game actually being played and decided that they didn't like everyone just playing a handful of locations. And so they "blew up the void" as they constantly put it. They killed the reasons why anyone went to the void in the first place. We can still play the same missions to an extent and the same applies to non void similarly leveled locations as well. Problem is that the reward for doing so is non existent. So the end game for gameplay, I would have to peg as being high level/skill gameplay that also in turn properly rewarded players for their efforts. In that sense, we have no end game for gameplay at this point.

[Nazrethim]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Keaurl said:

I'm sure this has been questioned ad nauseam, so i'll just get to the point that i'm only asking if there is any updated benchmark for when something becomes "endgame worthy", for personal evaluation. A lot of people used to throw around the whole 1hr+ of T4 survival being their endgame entry point, and then others denounced this for other definitions like being able to rack in ten hours of survival to get your name on a leaderboard being considered endgame, or litterally having nothing left to do but play syandana dressup. I'm just looking for a circumstance of relative difficulty.

When the star chart got updated there were some who said they found Mot to be way harder than the old T4S used to be, and said even with frames like Chroma they could barely make it half an hour, when they could go one hour plus before. I just want to know if there is any given benchmark, beyond which a pro would call a given piece of gear endgame worthy. What is that point considered currently, just for the personal purposes of someone like me?

Well, depends if you are prioritizing gear or skill or both.

In terms of gear, any +1h Endless mode, Sorties and Trials are endgame

In terms of skill, Conclave is endgame for it's high skill required

A combination of two would be a gamemode where you can¡t really cheese it, where you need good gear (as in, properly modded warframes and weapons) without being boiled down to specifics (meaning any frame and decent weapon could do well). Think in WoW's PvE content: the game requires both gear and skill to make it to the finals. In WF, you have sh*t like Miramulor, Slova, Loki, Ivara or Trinity, that can trivialize pretty much all content and eliminate the skill factor, hence why I consider Conclave the true endgame because you can't really cheese it with gear alone, you also need the skill. Back to WoW example, PvP also could be considered an endgame that you can access instantly from the get go, WF shares that, you can jump into Conclave from the start and be on par with veterans if you are skilled enough.

So far, Rathuum and The Index focus a lot on skill, but still don't count as "endgame" because the PvE modding system allows people to cheese them anyway, Trials are a CC fest and Sorties don't offer skill challenge, just stack lvl inflation with bullsh*t modifiers as a form of artificial difficulty that encourages more cheese.

So yeah, the closer you get to endgame here is Conclave, and you can jump on it from the get go.

[Cortanis]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

So far, Rathuum and The Index focus a lot on skill,

I would highly contest this part. Frost + bubble + high dps weapon= cheese. Ivara can do similar things as well as other particular frames.

[Skollolol]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, depends if you are prioritizing gear or skill or both.

In terms of gear, any +1h Endless mode, Sorties and Trials are endgame

In terms of skill, Conclave is endgame for it's high skill required

A combination of two would be a gamemode where you can¡t really cheese it, where you need good gear (as in, properly modded warframes and weapons) without being boiled down to specifics (meaning any frame and decent weapon could do well). Think in WoW's PvE content: the game requires both gear and skill to make it to the finals. In WF, you have sh*t like Miramulor, Slova, Loki, Ivara or Trinity, that can trivialize pretty much all content and eliminate the skill factor, hence why I consider Conclave the true endgame because you can't really cheese it with gear alone, you also need the skill. Back to WoW example, PvP also could be considered an endgame that you can access instantly from the get go, WF shares that, you can jump into Conclave from the start and be on par with veterans if you are skilled enough.

So far, Rathuum and The Index focus a lot on skill, but still don't count as "endgame" because the PvE modding system allows people to cheese them anyway, Trials are a CC fest and Sorties don't offer skill challenge, just stack lvl inflation with bullsh*t modifiers as a form of artificial difficulty that encourages more cheese.

So yeah, the closer you get to endgame here is Conclave, and you can jump on it from the get go.

 

Funny that you should mention WoW, where Blizzard has been trying to reduce the impact of "skill" significantly for years now. (rightfully so as far as I'm concerned, but that's another discussion)

What did they do for the smaller chunk of the community that wanted challenges? For Dungeons, Mythic+ - which are legitimately challenging...because of "lvl inflation with bullsh*t modifiers as a form of artificial difficulty that encourages more cheese."

Also funny that you should argue for the skill thing in WoW, which we have moved away from for at least 4, probably more years, while at the same time saying you could jump into PvP and be on par with Veterans "if you are skilled enough". Decidedly not the case in terms of old-WoW, which is why Blizzard made efforts to close the gap. You were never going to compete with people that played the game for 10 years more than casually, sorry.

Besides that, WoW had and still has it's fair amount of cheese, even in the olden days 1 button classes or rotations that only needed a mouse wheel were a thing.

 

Anyway, back to the "skill" thing - I really don't get the obsession with it, particularly peoples obsession with 'inflicting' it on everyone else.

 

I know there really are people to whom this is very important, and from my own youth I get it - but you are the minority.

Just like Blizzard has realised "gamers" are now also guys and gals in their 30s, so did the rest of the industry.

There are still "hardcore" games, and that is fine, but Warframes appeal to the people around me was that it isn't that.

Instead, Warframe did/does (sacrifices have been made) offer you choices. Want to have fun without investing time and effort? There's a frame/weapon combo for you!

Want the game to be harder? Got you covered.

Want an impossible challenge? Sure thing.

That's great.

Moving to the "strong black coffee" focus-group type of thing where people think they want a thing but probably don't...nah, bad idea.

The market is so saturated with games, a lot of them worth playing, that being a title catering to this minority has to be carefully considered, particularly when your claim to fame is being different...

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Cortanis said:

I would highly contest this part. Frost + bubble + high dps weapon= cheese. Ivara can do similar things as well as other particular frames.

Well, I mentioned that in the rest of the sentence.

 

1 hour ago, Skollolol said:

 

Funny that you should mention WoW, where Blizzard has been trying to reduce the impact of "skill" significantly for years now. (rightfully so as far as I'm concerned, but that's another discussion)

Not really, compare Vanilla to Wrath to Pandaria to Legion dungeons and raids and you see a vast increase in mechanics that demand medium awareness, movement and sometimes quick thinking.

1 hour ago, Skollolol said:

What did they do for the smaller chunk of the community that wanted challenges? For Dungeons, Mythic+ - which are legitimately challenging...because of "lvl inflation with bullsh*t modifiers as a form of artificial difficulty that encourages more cheese."

Yes, it's true, but consider that their First aproach is to add mechanics to make encounters more complex, once they can no longer keep stacking mechanics they go for the lvl inflation. In WF you see lvl inflation from begining to end, a lvl 10 Bombard isn't any different from a lvl100 Bombard, except that the second is a bulletsponge that will oneshot anything but the tankiest frames.

1 hour ago, Skollolol said:

Also funny that you should argue for the skill thing in WoW, which we have moved away from for at least 4, probably more years, while at the same time saying you could jump into PvP and be on par with Veterans "if you are skilled enough". Decidedly not the case in terms of old-WoW, which is why Blizzard made efforts to close the gap. You were never going to compete with people that played the game for 10 years more than casually, sorry.

WoW just naturally increased it's skill requirement over the years. Again, compare what was a "difficult" encounter in previous expansions to what is difficult in current. Older content looks trivial by comparison. The change was so smooth that what was considered uber skill in the past is now the minimum you are supposed to know/do.

1 hour ago, Skollolol said:

Besides that, WoW had and still has it's fair amount of cheese, even in the olden days 1 button classes or rotations that only needed a mouse wheel were a thing.

Yes, but it's not as prevalent and rampant as in WF. In old days there classes with 1 button classes yes, but remember that for example in vanilla  if you had 4 buttons to press it was considered a lot, unless you were a Warlock, who were years ahead in this department compared to other classes.

1 hour ago, Skollolol said:

Anyway, back to the "skill" thing - I really don't get the obsession with it, particularly

peoples obsession with 'inflicting' it on everyone else.

We are talking about endgame, not your regular starchart exterminate or capture. I don't mind regular planetary missions being easy to cheese, but if we are going to get "endgame" at some point, it better feature a lot of skill requirement and cheese-proof, with rewards worth the effort and hopefully with low low rng.

1 hour ago, Skollolol said:

I know there really are people to whom this is very important, and from my own youth I get it - but you are the minority.

Just like Blizzard has realised "gamers" are now also guys and gals in their 30s, so did the rest of the industry.

There are still "hardcore" games, and that is fine, but Warframes appeal to the people around me was that it isn't that.

Instead, Warframe did/does (sacrifices have been made) offer you choices. Want to have fun without investing time and effort? There's a frame/weapon combo for you!

Want the game to be harder? Got you covered.

Want an impossible challenge? Sure thing.

That's great.

Moving to the "strong black coffee" focus-group type of thing where people think they want a thing but probably don't...nah, bad idea.

The market is so saturated with games, a lot of them worth playing, that being a title catering to this minority has to be carefully considered, particularly when your claim to fame is being different...

Yeah. the era of the hardcore games is long gone, and I'm happy with it, but every once in a while you have to add a fair fight that makes you wanna bash your head on a wall until you get it right. What's the point of adding a detailed and awesome boss fight if a Mirage with a Tigris or Simulor is going to wipe it clean in 0.5s? What's the point of adding an elite branch of enemy army if they can be locked down en masse by a single Banshee? etc etc.

[SenariousNex]

Pretty much just sorties right now.