Rhino 8.3: Feedback Thread

[UberChio]

Rhino's pvp capbabilites is op. once he gets to the second round with 50 energy all he has to do is grab one energy ball and its over :( (whines of a volt 3 times polarized with max redirection and almost maxed vitality)

[Zizox]

Any of you notice that IS takes FRIENDLY FIRE????!! Yes, fellow Tenno, it does. I put on IS on Xini Defense, then my EMBER friend casts World on Fire near me and then just in 4-5 my IS went off (we were goofing around waiting for next wave).

 

Sorry if this is a re-post, cause I just noticed, cheers.

[Dipstick]

Any of you notice that IS takes FRIENDLY FIRE????!! Yes, fellow Tenno, it does. I put on IS on Xini Defense, then my EMBER friend casts World on Fire near me and then just in 4-5 my IS went off (we were goofing around waiting for next wave).

 

Sorry if this is a re-post, cause I just noticed, cheers.

I know, isnt it awesome when you shoot a rhino with the vandaltron and they go POOF!, no more immortality for you!

[Hyandra]

Why are you guys taking this much damage in the first place? Not to mention Rhino has very high shield and health pools. If you're taking a lot of damage, rhino stomp, kill everything, pop iron skin again, seriously. Rhino is fine, I STILL feel overpowered with him and feel invincible again, if you're complaining about him now, you just suck at the game.

Great work devs, keep it up, sorry you have to deal with whiners. :)

[RubAxy]

I can't understand, why some people still hate new Rhino.

  Iron Skin gives you 1200 damage cap (that is more than Rhino's HP&Shields combined), plus protection from poison, knockdowns and Anc.Infested attacks, that could kill you immediatly on high levels.

 Also Roar is very effective, especialy in some boss-kill and defence missions after 30th wave - help to save ammo and time.

 And Rhino Stomp. Yes, it's not the most powerfull ability, but don't forget that Rhino is not full-offensive warframe, he have abilities for stopping enemies. If you disslike it, then Rhino Charge must be banned too - it has lower damage than Excalibur power.

For now Rhino is good.

Any of you notice that IS takes FRIENDLY FIRE

Game is still Beta, so there are lot of bugs, and this one not the worst

Edited July 11, 2013 by RubAxy

[zavadius]

Hi Guys, about the iron skin skill, it was 80% damage reduction, then it became flat damage absorb...so, to give a boost to high lvlcontent, why dont add that 80% damage reduction to the 1200 flat hp of the iron skin? that will be tanky..and about the roar..i disagree about rhino getting an offense buff..if it was a defense, or hp, or shield booster it was going to soud better..a def buff for a tanker..ty for reading.

[Ax-Stark]

Why not add damage buff + defense buff (about 50% at max like damage) to his Roar ?

[Callback]

I don't get the complaints.  The IS buff is great.  It's like having a second layer of shields, but with CC immunity.  Sure it can wear off quickly on high level missions, but so do your base shields.  That's the point.  If the complaint is it "doesn't scale", then nerf it for lower level players.  Make it use 25/50/75/100% of your max shield value (including frame level and redirection) as the absorb value.  Now it scales into late as well as anything else.  Not much better at max than the current version, but much worse at low levels.  People who buy or craft rhino early on are getting the wrong impression of what he does.  Maybe  a weaker rhino for newer players will fix the community mentality on how he is supposed to behave.

 

Also, it sort of DOES scale towards end game, since it scales with focus.  You do need to make some progression to fully benefit from it.

 

I love everything about the new Rhino.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Callback

[Ganpot]

I don't get the complaints.  The IS buff is great.  It's like having a second layer of shields, but with CC immunity.  Sure it can wear off quickly on high level missions, but so do your base shields.  That's the point.  If the complaint is it "doesn't scale", then nerf it for lower level players.  Make it use 25/50/75/100% of your max shield value (including frame level and redirection) as the absorb value.  Now it scales into late as well as anything else.  Not much better at max than the current version, but much worse at low levels.  Do you hate noobs that much?  These complaints are so insensitive.

 

The complaints were never about hating on newbies.  Iron Skin, from a purely factual standpoint, is a failure of game design.  From a design perspective, everything needs to be consistent (unless the game is designed to be sadistic towards players).  The game should be teaching players how to play better as they progress.  Negative behavior is punished (with death, health loss, etc.) while positive behavior is rewarded (with exp, kills, etc.).  For the first 80% of the game, Iron Skin teaches players that they are basically invincible.  Except when fighting bosses for extended periods of time, Iron Skin will almost never break.  Then, upon reaching end-game content (endless defense, Void, solo Pluto runs), Iron Skin suddenly fails to provide that accustomed invincibility (for more than a couple of seconds).  From a clueless player's perspective, the game is breaking its own rules.  That is why players want Iron Skin to scale.  It's almost god-mode at low levels, and utterly useless at high levels. 

[McVolker]

This may already be mixed in with the other posts, but here it is anyway.

 

-Iron Skin is NOT immune to the knockdown of Railgun MOA's, and sometimes will be staggered by them instead of knocked down.

-Excalibur's #4 ability has a knockdown effect on Iron Skin during Dojo Dueling.

-Banshee's #1 ability does knockdown/knockback on Iron Skin during Dojo Dueling.

-Slide-Kicking has a knockdown during Dojo Dueling.

 

There may be more, but this is all I have seen so far.

[Specskill]

The complaints were never about hating on newbies.  Iron Skin, from a purely factual standpoint, is a failure of game design.  From a design perspective, everything needs to be consistent (unless the game is designed to be sadistic towards players).  The game should be teaching players how to play better as they progress.  Negative behavior is punished (with death, health loss, etc.) while positive behavior is rewarded (with exp, kills, etc.).  For the first 80% of the game, Iron Skin teaches players that they are basically invincible.  Except when fighting bosses for extended periods of time, Iron Skin will almost never break.  Then, upon reaching end-game content (endless defense, Void, solo Pluto runs), Iron Skin suddenly fails to provide that accustomed invincibility (for more than a couple of seconds).  From a clueless player's perspective, the game is breaking its own rules.  That is why players want Iron Skin to scale.  It's almost god-mode at low levels, and utterly useless at high levels. 

 

Wouldn't a better fix be to not make it god mode at early levels? Its seems kind of counterintuitive to be giving people godmode at end game content as well. If you make Iron Skin scale to endgame that it gives you godmode, what would be the point of endgame for rhino? Endgame content is suppose to be challenging.

 

Also I think your going a little far by saying its useless. Consider for a moment that even with a maxed our Redirection, your not going to get higher than 1110 shields. A maxed out Iron Skin is giving you a 1200 damage shield. By your logic we should be increasing the shields on the Warframes to compensate for endgame content. 

 

Just 1 last thing ... what the hell are you doing that's shredding 1200 worth of shields in a couple seconds? I mean I run a lvl 30 Loki on Pluto and even without my abilities I don't take damage that fast, and I have 300 hp and 300 shields. Just because the Rhino can tank, doesn't mean you shouldn't be actively taking cover.

[BlueIstari]

Just because the Rhino can tank, doesn't mean you shouldn't be actively taking cover.

 

And that's sort of the problem. Iron Skin draws aggro, ergo it should enable survival under sustained gunfire while protecting allies. Taking cover means that not only is Iron Skin failing to perform its implied function, but it is also indirectly disabling you with absolutely zero gain for the rest of the team as long as you're cowering behind a crate. If you're going to end up having to take cover anyways, you may as well never use Iron Skin, and instead save your energy for another Roar or Rhino Stomp while allowing damage to be spread across the entire group. Hell, even take the ability card off and give yourself three more levels of Redirection. At least shields perform as advertised and regenerate without wasting energy.

 

Now, how can we solve this problem? Well, we COULD keep repeating the cycle of people complaining and DE making changes that still won't work in the long run, but square one is looking a little worn, so I have a much simpler idea... Stop fooling ourselves: Remove Iron Skin's aggro draw, and rebrand Rhino as a heavy gunner. Let's face it, direct tanking really isn't working for this game. He'd be better off as a frontline support who's merely sturdier than other frames, and I suspect that there will be fewer complaints about Iron Skin's current damage cap if it ceases to be a "KICK ME" sign.

[Ganpot]

Wouldn't a better fix be to not make it god mode at early levels? Its seems kind of counterintuitive to be giving people godmode at end game content as well. If you make Iron Skin scale to endgame that it gives you godmode, what would be the point of endgame for rhino? Endgame content is suppose to be challenging.

 

Also I think your going a little far by saying its useless. Consider for a moment that even with a maxed our Redirection, your not going to get higher than 1110 shields. A maxed out Iron Skin is giving you a 1200 damage shield. By your logic we should be increasing the shields on the Warframes to compensate for endgame content. 

 

Just 1 last thing ... what the hell are you doing that's shredding 1200 worth of shields in a couple seconds? I mean I run a lvl 30 Loki on Pluto and even without my abilities I don't take damage that fast, and I have 300 hp and 300 shields. Just because the Rhino can tank, doesn't mean you shouldn't be actively taking cover.

 

You're correct, Iron Skin shouldn't be god mode at lower levels.  I have never proposed a return to straight-up invincibility with no downside.  But Iron Skin needs to scale in order to preserve good game design.  That's mathematically indisputable.  Otherwise it will either be overpowered or underpowered in a large section of the levels. 

 

By saying an extra 1200 damage buffer is useless, I mean that at endgame mobs (even the basic ones) deal so much damage that complete mitigation is the only way to avoid a quick death.  That's why Chaos and Snowglobe are considered invaluable.  A dozen level 60+ Grineer will tear down Iron Skin within 5 seconds.  A Grineer Bombard at that level can probably deal more than 1000 damage in a single shot.  Not to mention that using Iron Skin taunts enemies into attacking. 

[thecolin-]

This may already be mixed in with the other posts, but here it is anyway.

 

-Iron Skin is NOT immune to the knockdown of Railgun MOA's, and sometimes will be staggered by them instead of knocked down.

-Excalibur's #4 ability has a knockdown effect on Iron Skin during Dojo Dueling.

-Banshee's #1 ability does knockdown/knockback on Iron Skin during Dojo Dueling.

-Slide-Kicking has a knockdown during Dojo Dueling.

 

There may be more, but this is all I have seen so far.

That is because Railgun MOA's are dealing crazy damage, as far as I know

[Kaoticfury]

I`m not sure if I'm the only on that has noticed this issue, but IS is removable by allies. I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but my friend runs a rhino frame, and one maybe two shots with a shotgun to the face and it takes IS off. If it is not intended a fix would be awesome. However, the troll factor is pretty hilarious. He thinks he's all tough, then I shoot him and hyena sends him launching, lol

[inthephonebox]

I'm sure this has been stated and ground into the dust by the opposition already, but I really don't see what was wrong with the original Rhino. He wasn't OP or redundant, he fit a role, a very specific role of Tank and crowd control. I liked that he was a purely defensive frame. His powers did next to no damage and his slow move speed meant he was never going to keep up with fast paced kills, but he could distract, immobilize, or straight up take most of the enemies in order for a team of squishier frames to get to work. That truly supported a co-op play style. Now Rhino is just the same as every other frame: 3 damage skills and a semi-useful utility. I know in a recent livestream the devs mentioned that they didn't want to embrace the standard MMO class triangle, but it is a widely used character system for a reason: it works! As it is, all the frames feel more or less the same. Sure, they use different abilities along the way but they all only seem to focus on one goal: kill, and kill as fast as possible. It doesn't lead to cooperation, it leads to kill stealing, rushing, and overall redundancy of every mission type. Rhino used to break that monotony by allowing me to focus not on damage and moving as fast as possible, but on keeping everyone alive and engaging or distracting only the big targets so others didn't get rushed with everything at once. Now all I do is the same thing every other frame does: 1 to kill small stuff, 4 to kill big stuff, maybe throw 3 in there once in a while just so my 1 and 4 button don't get eroded away. 

 

Guys, balance does not need to equal standardization. 

 

</end_rant>

[Darxio]

Vauban:  Okay guys, I'ma do a vortex.  Everyone else use all your awesome skills on top of them while they're grouped up.

 

Volt:  Overload!

 

Excalibur:  Radial Javelin!

 

Rhino:  CANNOT USE IN AIR

 

Saryn can make the same arguement about CANNOT USE IN AIR with Miasma as Rhino does with Rhino Stomp, for example.  Just one of the many reasons why the new Rhino Stomp is not an acceptable replacement to Radial Blast.

 

PS:  I have no strong feelings one way or the other to stomp getting damage.  That's fine or whatever(It was fine without it too, it just makes stomp better).  It does NOT replace Radial Blast, however, even with its damage.  They serve two different functions and giving stomp damage doesn't give it Radial Blast's function.

[Ganpot]

Saryn can make the same arguement about CANNOT USE IN AIR with Miasma as Rhino does with Rhino Stomp, for example.  Just one of the many reasons why the new Rhino Stomp is not an acceptable replacement to Radial Blast.

 

PS:  I have no strong feelings one way or the other to stomp getting damage.  That's fine or whatever(It was fine without it too, it just makes stomp better).  It does NOT replace Radial Blast, however, even with its damage.  They serve two different functions and giving stomp damage doesn't give it Radial Blast's function.

 

What is it with people and Radial Blast?  The ability wasn't even that good....  It didn't deal Armor Piercing damage (which the new Rhino Stomp does), and it had a far smaller area of effect.  Roar is also a much better ability than Radial Blast ever was.  The only thing you could potentially miss (other than being able to use Radial Blast in mid-air, which I had actually never tried) is the 25 cheaper energy cost.  But even with that in mind, the positives far outweigh the negatives. 

[Morgdred]

Not so serious response: Lets ask DE to make another frame call: Godino! Only skill he will get from 1 ~ 4 are God Mode laste 60 seconds with cost only 25 energy. So who ever misses the old God Mode Rhino can leave all of those whom are mostly happy with current Rhinos in peace.

 

Serious response: Only thing I would like to see implanted is visual for Iron Skin to change, currently it IS pointless to even think about recolouring Rhino; afterall only thing we can see is silver glowing Rhino running around (when we uses Iron Skin) I do agree that armor should serve more purpose in game though, but that could classified as whole game improvement not just Rhinos

[Mak_Gohae]

What is it with people and Radial Blast?  The ability wasn't even that good....  It didn't deal Armor Piercing damage (which the new Rhino Stomp does), and it had a far smaller area of effect.  Roar is also a much better ability than Radial Blast ever was.  The only thing you could potentially miss (other than being able to use Radial Blast in mid-air, which I had actually never tried) is the 25 cheaper energy cost.  But even with that in mind, the positives far outweigh the negatives. 

 

It was a quick-cast knockdown.

Not everyone is worrying about damage falloff, some folks were fine with the other benefits it offered.

[Thaumatos]

Only thing I would like to see implanted is visual for Iron Skin to change, currently it IS pointless to even think about recolouring Rhino; afterall only thing we can see is silver glowing Rhino running around (when we uses Iron Skin) I do agree that armor should serve more purpose in game though, but that could classified as whole game improvement not just Rhinos

Don't worry, you won't have Iron Skin on for long. Your colors will show about 99.9% of the time you play Rhino.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Thaumatos

[NetBlaise]

Rhino is a Tank.. Stop with the damn Dmg buff.... More Health then SHield.. Give a reason to use +50% Armor Mod..... No one use's this... You would think a tank would have high HP not Shield...... SHield is for casters and dps....

[ShadowGhosting]

With the new level balance changes, and Nightmare mode, I'm sure a lot more people are going quickly notice the short comings of IS.

[Mak_Gohae]

With the new level balance changes, and Nightmare mode, I'm sure a lot more people are going quickly notice the short comings of IS.

 

Vamp mode means that you dont even need it and the timer mode you will just be rushing to objectives.

I still pop it but with stomp it isnt something that is extremely needed, and i dont even have energy syphon.

 

This has been in PUGS so far with the smallest group being me with one other person. Maybe alone there might be a bit of a problem but i dont think its that big of a deal.

 

Folks that got used to the old IS need to adjust with the times. You are not going to be able to do what you did before with this frame, call for the creation a new ACTUAL tank frame to be built and just let go of rhino. Start the building the wave for HIPPO! The (actual) tankiest frame ever!

Edited July 13, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[seth]

I went to test Rhino on Raptor guy, and all I can say is.... Iron Skin was 0.5sec there and than pooofff!!! No Iron Skin. ^^

It's also miserable versus normal enemies, maybe IS should scale with enemy level.