If Trinity Has Invulnerability, Why Doesn't Rhino?

[Niryco]

Wrong, So wrong it hurts. I think you do not understand what support means. Roar is support. Iron Skin is defense/agro (and sucks) and Rhino stomp is control along with Rhino charge.

 

At least give the illusion you play Rhino and use the correct power name. Its Rhino Charge, not Slash Dash.

Also if you think 600 damage is worth anything in endgame content then you clearly are stuck on Sedna. (end game being wave 20+ Xini or higher or t3 void solo). 1000 damage certainly is barely decent when factored that it is attached to a control power. But it is not nearly enough on its own to merit stating in endgame content.

 

And that is thing. I really wonder what you "Rhino Lovers" play. It certainly cant be the same content I am running or you would understand how much damage gets thrown around and the HP's of mobs at that level (t3 void Heavys are th eonly ones that count and even then they go down to a forma'd supra in 3 seconds (head spray).

 

Regardless, Rhino has 2 CC skills, One support and one defensive skill. If you take all of that into account he is a Defensive CC/support frame. If you want an offensive frame you have many to choose from (Ash, Ecal, Sarin, Ember ect.). Would you call Vauban a offensive frame? Of course not. Rhino shares far more in common with Vauban than he does with any of the four frames I mentioned in the line above.

 

TLDR. You are wrong and should be sad about it.

 

No, there is no wrong because technically the devs don't want a frame to fit into one profile. Also you seem very intent on &!$$ing me off. I admit to making mistakes because i too was slightly &!$$ed at that moment and thank you for correcting my mistake. The Rhino i play for me uses CC skills, i have Rhino charge and radial blast, iron skin at rank 2. What i did every time, even on high level defense with my friend on outer terminus is just spam radial blast.

 

I just keep spamming it or Charge and my gun finished off enemies that don't die. Because no matter how, no skill, with the exception of certain casters skills(link, sayrn's ulti and some other) can scale to end game. The rest can't, it is fact and thus no matter how all frames are even built, they aren't built with end-game in mind except for those with skills which can work in end-game.

 

The Rhino gets me through most of my pluto missions, which even my trinity can't get through which is very odd. Probably it is also the fact that the rhino had good armor and that trinity didn't meant that once i ran out of energy i would be in deep trouble if i can't find cover. Energy vampire is my would be savior, however even the armor on the rhino does a way better job.

 

We don't share the same experience, but i had successes, much more in higher level missions than my trinity with braton(my main build funnily enough). I eventually sold him to make room for other frames so that i can move up the mastery ranks. Why no keep it? My trinity had a potato and the famine made me overall reluctant to sell it. The Rhino game me a high amount of success compared with the other frames i played (only exception is nyx with chaos). The number of frames i played isn't alot, but i can say that the rhino is a very good frame which is a very awesome Crowd control frame which i use it aggressively every time.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Jacate

[Xylia]

It is quite simple.

 

Trinity's Link does allow you to "become invincible", but only for a short duration.

 

You have to keep casting it and keep casting it and keep casting it, and from my experiences in playing Trinity, there are times that I have trouble getting Link up on a mob because it is kinda finicky about aiming sometimes.

 

If you're ever caught with Link down, you die in 2 seconds (or less!) because you have almost zero armor.

 

And we can't balance the whole game around Lv100 Endless Defense, either. Not when Pluto maxes at Lv50 and Void 3 is 70-80 and even with Void 3, the only things that REALLY hurt are the Heavy Gunners (although if you ignore the Small Fry, they'll kill you quick too if you have 4-5 of them shooting at you).

 

I've seen Trinities dropping dead quite often in Void because their link went down and they didn't even get it back up until a Gunner chewed through their shield. Meanwhile, as Rhino, I've run up to a Gunner, did a Rhino Stomp, used my Iron Skin and successfully revived the person and we both got behind cover before the Heavy Gunner's Gorgon had a chance to wind back up.

 

And this was BEFORE 8.3.

 

Let's not forget, Rhino has an awesome Damage Buff for his team now too.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Xylia

[Keltik0ne]

I'm actually enjoying the new Rhino, he's way better than the new Mag.

 

Volt of course, still looks the coolest.

[xXlURMOMlXx]

Community meaning some really bored forum posters who hadn't actually played the game much but posted like crazy.

 

not only that, but when they dont have something, they go mad, for an example just cause people dont have the braton vandal, they say it has to be nerfed just because they dont have it and alot of people dont have acess to it\\

Edited July 6, 2013 by xXlURMOMlXx

[-Kittens-]

It is quite simple.

Trinity's Link does allow you to "become invincible", but only for a short duration.

You have to keep casting it and keep casting it and keep casting it, and from my experiences in playing Trinity, there are times that I have trouble getting Link up on a mob because it is kinda finicky about aiming sometimes.

If you're ever caught with Link down, you die in 2 seconds (or less!) because you have almost zero armor.

And we can't balance the whole game around Lv100 Endless Defense, either. Not when Pluto maxes at Lv50 and Void 3 is 70-80 and even with Void 3, the only things that REALLY hurt are the Heavy Gunners (although if you ignore the Small Fry, they'll kill you quick too if you have 4-5 of them shooting at you).

I've seen Trinities dropping dead quite often in Void because their link went down and they didn't even get it back up until a Gunner chewed through their shield. Meanwhile, as Rhino, I've run up to a Gunner, did a Rhino Stomp, used my Iron Skin and successfully revived the person and we both got behind cover before the Heavy Gunner's Gorgon had a chance to wind back up.

 

And this was BEFORE 8.3.

Let's not forget, Rhino has an awesome Damage Buff for his team now too.

If it was that simple, the solution would be equally simple.

Context is king, and always will be, which is one of the ways that defensive powers get turned into offensive troll tactics to begin with.

If by the spirit of IS can't be returned to what it was and it now HAS to draw aggro to prevent Rhino from running away from the team (which is why I think it might have been implemented at all, though frankly the image of Rhino running away is pretty laughable, because implementing rush or acrobat is an absolutely COLOSSAL waste oh rhino's mean setup, but trolls will be trolls and I'm equally sure it did happen)

 

jealous

I know that's equally a thing and has been in other games as well (MEMP, WoW, LoL etc) but that really is up to DE to decide how much that is an actual thing, and how much the metrics they get back support it, and doesn't really explain HOW Rhino can be fixed to be as effective as before, because right now he's not, even with the new stuff, which is good.

The issue right now is that IS is a waste of both energy time and cost after 30, ->CONTEXTUALLY SPEAKING<- and certainly doesn't support any kind of worst-case-scenario clutch play unless you're literally within feet of soft cover. The "supra-shield" implementation mentioned above is fine for levels lower than that, but as an emergency game/pod/day saving clutch device the economy of power and usage don't track very well, especially with aggro tacked on top.

To deal with high level clutch aggro Rhino now has to spend 150 points and deal with cooldown if sh!t is really nasty. I'm not going to even to waste typing with describing how completely ridiculous that is.

Perhaps IS should deal redirection damage at 25% per level for X meters per level in a wide radius, complete with bounce back effects, thus becoming IS of a different sort while still keeping the status immunity, which is actually the only real reason to use it now on high level missions.

 

supra

Not everyone has a supra, not everyone wants a supra, and any WF in the game can fire a supra; if the supra was a super heavy weapon that only a big warframe like Saryn and Rhino could use, that would be a salient point. The context is the power itself, not weapons used to plow you way through with sufficient speed to not have to use your powers in the first place. Secondly, when the GREAT RESET comes, all the people who had multishot and serration drop like endless mana candy from the sky pre 7 aren't going to have these cards anymore, they're going to have to scrounge around like everyone else.

 

100 level defense

Every frame has to be able to compete SOLO with 100 level enemies in a group in one way or another; it's part of the game, love it or hate it.

Edited July 6, 2013 by -Kittens-

[WARLOCKE]

I love -Kittens-, you say what I try to say but you are less of a abrasive jerk about it than me.

Edited July 6, 2013 by WARLOCKE

[Mak_Gohae]

Every frame has to be able to compete SOLO with 100 level enemies in a group in one way or another; it's part of the game, love it or hate it.

 

One way or another so.... Charge and Stomp?

[JariWeis]

Why does the most defensive Warframe in the game not have this?

The new change to IS is literally meaningless, It does NOTHING.

The argument seems to be "at high levels, Rhino can exploit timing and pattern weaknesses to kill bosses or survive heavy assaults by ignoring damage behavior".

Umm, isn't that the entire point of having the Rhino in the game in the first place?

Secondly how is that ANY different from going invisible with Ash or Loki or going super poison/DoT with Saryn/Ember or using Link with Trinity to manhandle bosses solo ANYWAY.

I am at a loss here.

 

Rhino has damaging abilities, Trinity does not.

Trinity is a team buff player (Blessing heals and immunifies the whole team), Rhino is a straight up tank built to recieve damage.

Blessing is more of a panic button and a game changer, Rhino uses Iron Skin to tank and aggro, something Blessing does not.

[-Kittens-]

One way or another so.... Charge and Stomp?

 

Again, 125 energy as opposed to 150 energy isn't actually super spendy savings time, it's like more like buying Air Insurance.

 

I can already breathe air, thanks, I don't need an economic indicator to tell me when I should or shouldn't.

 

ACT NOW, ONLY 12000 platinum!

 

AIR INSURANCE!

 

It's also entirely an subjective slant on the other side, though IS is actually objectively sub-par compared to other frames' skillsets and themes.

 

Lots of folks want Rhino to be a big slow juggernaut that shrugs off horrendous damage and doesn't look back as he walks away from the explosion with a naked chick on each shoulder.

 

I'm one of those people.

 

The other changes to Rhino were welcomed. If you play on a team you can roar all the stuff and your broses and sisses can damage all the things while you catch up with your slow &amp;#&#33; self.

 

If you play pugs, you now have a free slot where roar used to be to polarize so that you can have all four defensive mods and all three power cost/extension mods on one warframe, and become pretty well troll proof except for speedrunners ganking all your xp.

 

Meanwhile, IS still not unilterally useful or good. It simply isn't, and that has nothing to do with "Rhino should have a drawback or weakness OR Rhino has cooler stuff than my frame and I refuse to buy a slot so f@ck Rhino and the ninja horse he rode in on". Everyone should get that love, and DE has stated pretty unilaterally everyone will.

 

Rhino should be this, IMO

 

 

because it's awesome, and the WarFrame context and thematics support it, and it's a signaure and unique paradigm.

Edited July 7, 2013 by -Kittens-

[Mak_Gohae]

Again, 125 energy as opposed to 150 energy isn't actually super spendy savings time, it's like more like buying Air Insurance.

 

I can already breathe air, thanks, I don't need an economic indicator to tell me when I should or shouldn't.

 

ACT NOW, ONLY 12000 platinum!

 

AIR INSURANCE!

 

This applies to half of the frames in this game.

 

it's also entirely an subjective slant on the other side, though IS is actually objectively sub-par compared to other frames' skillsets and themes.

 

Lots of folks want Rhino to be a big slow juggernaut that shrugs off horrendous damage and doesn't look back as he walks away from the explosion with a naked chick on each shoulder.

 

I'm one of those people.

 

The other changes to Rhino were welcomed. If you play on a team you can roar all the stuff and your broses and sisses can damage all the things while you catch up with your slow &amp;#&#33; self.

 

If you play pugs, you now have a free slot where roar used to be to polarize so that you can have all four defensive mods and all three power cost/extension mods on one warframe, and become pretty well troll proof except for speedrunners ganking all your xp.

 

Meanwhile, IS still not unilterally useful or good. It simply isn't, and that has nothing to do with "Rhino should have a drawback or weakness OR Rhino has cooler stuff than my frame and I refuse to buy a slot so f@ck Rhino and the ninja horse he rode in on". Everyone should get that love, and DE has stated pretty unilaterally everyone will.

 

Rhino should be this, IMO

 

 

because it's awesome, and the WarFrame context and thematics support it, and it's a signaure and unique paradigm.

 

Rhino's theme was CC, he was never meant to be a tank. Folks were spoiled because of one power that was never balanced to the rest of his set. People would just IS and almost never use anything else, that was a problem. You folks have endlessly called for that to be brought back and after all the changes made it should extremely obvious that IS is not going to return to what it was. It's best to hope for an actual tank frame to be built than to hope to turn this one into one.

 

I mean, look at it now.....it has a buff ability, what the hell is all that about?

[PaperAlien]

The problem here is that a damage cap mechanic simply doesn't work. 1200 shields is nothing compared to flat-out invulnerability (Link) or DR (Overheat). Rhino needs to have a DR mechanic again. It might have worked, except the initial version was bugged and people cried it away before they even got the chance to fix the bugs. Link.... needs to be completely removed and replaced by a new power. Apart from making very little sense as a power for any frame, it makes even less sense on the support frame. If they're that unwilling to remove it, at least let it work both ways, so a Trinity can't just solo a boss by Linking and then shooting them directly. But replacing is still much better. Overheat..... *Flameshield (the irony) up* needs to have its DR nerfed to the 40-60% range. There's not much point giving a caster frame like Ember low defensive stats when she can have 91% DR to out-tank frames like Volt or Frost. I don't mind if you increase damage or add utility, but the DR is actually too high at the moment.

[-Kittens-]

This applies to half of the frames in this game.

 

 

 

 

Rhino's theme was CC, he was never meant to be a tank. Folks were spoiled because of one power that was never balanced to the rest of his set. People would just IS and almost never use anything else, that was a problem. You folks have endlessly called for that to be brought back and after all the changes made it should extremely obvious that IS is not going to return to what it was. It's best to hope for an actual tank frame to be built than to hope to turn this one into one.

 

I mean, look at it now.....it has a buff ability, what the hell is all that about?

 

DE has stated flatly they're looking at lots of things about lots of frames, so your statement really doesn't propel the discussion anywhere.

 

I've also never asked for a DIRECT return 1:1, although it would be the easiest thing to implement, it's clear by livestreams it isn't going to happen and I have no clue who "you folks" are since I haven't endlessly asked for anything other than the application of common sense and the essence of Rhino's original implementation to be preserved and post history thereof woud back that up. Other people seem to want that too, as evidenced above. His ult being a non damaging event also is no way shape or form point to a singular anything other than an obvious choice to add as a power if radial blast and Iron skin are cheaper and had the roles they had at the time.

 

By your example, Ember is best example of CC in Waframe cause you know crawling damage on everything in forever radius, so she must be the master of all CC, right?

Edited July 7, 2013 by -Kittens-

[Niryco]

 

DE has stated flatly they're looking at lots of things about lots of frames, so your statement really doesn't propel the discussion anywhere.

 

I've also never asked for a DIRECT return 1:1, although it would be the easiest thing to implement, it's clear by livesteams it isn't going to happen and I have no clue who "you folks" are since I haven't endlessly asked for anything other than the application of common sense and the essence of Rhino's original implementation to be preserved and post history thereof woud back that up. Other people seem to want that too, as evidenced above. His ult being a non damaging event also is no way shape or form point to a singular anything other than an obvious choice to add as a power if radial blast and Iron skin are cheaper and had the roles they had at the time.

 

By your example, Ember is best example of CC in Waframe cause you know crawling damage on everything in forever radius, so she must be the master of all CC, right?

She is a caster CC, your rhino is like your sword man CC. Both differ in the implementation of their CC skills.

[-Kittens-]

Saryn, Ash, and Loki would have a better handle on that though.

[SoulEchelon]

The only thing. ONLY thing Trinity has for herself is her support abilities. No damage dealing abilities, and no armor. She runs out of energy, or is caught between her abilities, and she's dead. Trinity can survive, but she can't do good damage on her own. That's the tradeoff.

 

Rhino HAS damage dealing abilities and large AOEs capable of massive CC. His new "support" ability? Did you know tanks in almost every damned game have support abilities for their party? Infact, it should've been a Defensive buff - but of course there'd be even MORE people crying about it since "HURR DURR DPSDPSDPSDPSDPDSPSDPSDPPSDP"

 

I've come to realize that most (KEYWORD: MOST) Rhino players will never be happy unless they're back to their original godmode selves. *sighs*

[Mak_Gohae]

DE has stated flatly they're looking at lots of things about lots of frames, so your statement really doesn't propel the discussion anywhere.

 

I've also never asked for a DIRECT return 1:1, although it would be the easiest thing to implement, it's clear by livestreams it isn't going to happen and I have no clue who "you folks" are since I haven't endlessly asked for anything other than the application of common sense and the essence of Rhino's original implementation to be preserved and post history thereof woud back that up. Other people seem to want that too, as evidenced above. His ult being a non damaging event also is no way shape or form point to a singular anything other than an obvious choice to add as a power if radial blast and Iron skin are cheaper and had the roles they had at the time.

 

By your example, Ember is best example of CC in Waframe cause you know crawling damage on everything in forever radius, so she must be the master of all CC, right?

 

The original implementation was that of a CCer. You folks ( the other people you speak of ) are looking for one specific power to be looked at rather than the whole overall frame and that isn't really the way to balance game play. Rhino's game play did not revolve around not being able to take damage by the effect of one single ability, this should have been achieved by the combination of all his abilities which involve disabling the enemy. But that power was so unbalanced compared to the others that this became the go to power and that needed a change. The fact that when IS was changed and there was this uproar saying that Rhino was useless proves that. The dude had 3 CCs which are useful at any level but that gets completely ignored over that one single power.

 

She is a caster CC, your rhino is like your sword man CC. Both differ in the implementation of their CC skills.

 

Exactly, but Rhino's CCs were extremely more easy to perform since they werent based on the effect of one element.

[Niryco]

Exactly, but Rhino's CCs were extremely more easy to perform since they werent based on the effect of one element.

So are you agreeing or against? I can't decide.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Jacate

[Mak_Gohae]

So are you agreeing or against? I can't decide.

 

I'm agreeing. I just said that because of resistances to elements her's is a bit harder to pull off compared to just knocking everyone down.

[Niryco]

I'm agreeing. I just said that because of resistances to elements her's is a bit harder to pull off compared to just knocking everyone down.

Thank you for clearing it up. Just to add that once say an earth frame comes out that acts sorta like a full tank people would still complain about the rhino as being a sucky tank. Why can't people just see the big picture that he is a crowd control frame?

[ColdPawrizzle]

Rhino's Iron skin costs 50 energy and lasts until the damage is knocked off. It can be recast instantly afterwards. Iron skin also has an aggro generating component.

Trinity's link costs 75 energy, lasts for eight seconds max and needs an enemy near them.

 

Every multiplayer game tends to give healers an effect that lets them take some damage because it they don't have survivability, they're as good as dead in those instances when the tank loses aggro. Does link need to be connected to an enemy (Ehh not really) but trinity does need that OH SHI- button.

[pain4u]

No it isn't.

This isn't an MMO.

You're right this is not an mmo. This is A MMO. MMO stands for massive (check) multiplayer (check) online (check). so yeah... YOU'RE WRONG

[Niryco]

You're right this is not an mmo. This is A MMO. MMO stands for massive (check) multiplayer (check) online (check). so yeah... YOU'RE WRONG

WOAH calm down, its ok to be wrong. No need to put a huge poster in other people's faces.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Jacate

[(NSW)DracoHouston]

Why does the most defensive Warframe in the game not have this?

The new change to IS is literally meaningless, It does NOTHING.

The argument seems to be "at high levels, Rhino can exploit timing and pattern weaknesses to kill bosses or survive heavy assaults by ignoring damage behavior".

Umm, isn't that the entire point of having the Rhino in the game in the first place?

Secondly how is that ANY different from going invisible with Ash or Loki or going super poison/DoT with Saryn/Ember or using Link with Trinity to manhandle bosses solo ANYWAY.

I am at a loss here.

I feel it is important that both Trinity and Rhino are great tanks, in case content comes out that actually need them. It is good when a role can be filled by multiple classes. Roar and Vampire bring a ton of utility. I've felt bad for people using Rhinos ever since I got my Trinity. Frankly, I'm amazed that people are saying Rhino is OP now. With 4 siphons and a Trinity the new iron skin could probably have 100% uptime. But really, a Trinity can do it all on their own. And when they take damage they only have to worry about duration (end is indicated visually anyway) Rhino has to worry that their skin will break, and if they cast too early they waste energy and EHP

 

 

The problem here is that a damage cap mechanic simply doesn't work. 1200 shields is nothing compared to flat-out invulnerability (Link) or DR (Overheat). Rhino needs to have a DR mechanic again. It might have worked, except the initial version was bugged and people cried it away before they even got the chance to fix the bugs. Link.... needs to be completely removed and replaced by a new power. Apart from making very little sense as a power for any frame, it makes even less sense on the support frame. If they're that unwilling to remove it, at least let it work both ways, so a Trinity can't just solo a boss by Linking and then shooting them directly. But replacing is still much better. Overheat..... *Flameshield (the irony) up* needs to have its DR nerfed to the 40-60% range. There's not much point giving a caster frame like Ember low defensive stats when she can have 91% DR to out-tank frames like Volt or Frost. I don't mind if you increase damage or add utility, but the DR is actually too high at the moment.

What would Trinity have if link were removed? Healing (not generating shields, HEALING) and being a mana battery? If anything they should look at blessing and how it does what well of life and link does but worse

 

The only thing. ONLY thing Trinity has for herself is her support abilities. No damage dealing abilities, and no armor. She runs out of energy, or is caught between her abilities, and she's dead. Trinity can survive, but she can't do good damage on her own. That's the tradeoff.

 

Rhino HAS damage dealing abilities and large AOEs capable of massive CC. His new "support" ability? Did you know tanks in almost every damned game have support abilities for their party? Infact, it should've been a Defensive buff - but of course there'd be even MORE people crying about it since "HURR DURR DPSDPSDPSDPSDPDSPSDPSDPPSDP"

 

I've come to realize that most (KEYWORD: MOST) Rhino players will never be happy unless they're back to their original godmode selves. *sighs*

Yeah I felt roar was a good companion to energy vampire.

 

You're right this is not an mmo. This is A MMO. MMO stands for massive (check) multiplayer (check) online (check). so yeah... YOU'RE WRONG

I get your point but that was the correct use of a/an. The acronym MMO starts with an e sound ('em')

Edited July 7, 2013 by DracoHouston

[BenHoliday]

You're right this is not an mmo. This is A MMO. MMO stands for massive (check) multiplayer (check) online (check). so yeah... YOU'RE WRONG

 

Double check on Massive? Does 4 = Massive? Didn't think so. Nothing to see here, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

I feel it is important that both Trinity and Rhino are great tanks

 

While I don't have a Rhino (and don't care to get him other than for mastery perhaps) I'd like to point out that Link no longer prevents stagger or knockdown, while I was under the impression that IS did.

 

Perhaps what they should do with IS is have it be a damage absorber, but prevent all damage from the final attack that ends IS regardless of how much excess damage was dealt. So, even if 1200 damage isn't a lot, it still means you can't be one hit KO'd with IS, which would make it moderately useful at endgame. Alternatively, have it prevent up to X damage or up to Y hits whichever is last, so at endgame it would be able to take more than 1 hit even if that Ancient hit you for >1200, while at lower levels it would be the 1200 damage absorb that matters more.

 

[Karma_Ghost]

Why are so many people hung up on Rhino being a tank? Why does a shooter even need a tank? The way I see it, the whole point of damage mitigating abilities in a game like this is so players can be more aggressive or careless, not so they can stand in place and adopt the traditional RPG tank and spank strategy. If you absolutely insist on sitting out in the open, instead of moving and utilizing cover, just use Frost.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Karma_Ghost