The whole "It's a free game so stop complaining" people.

[ChuckMaverick]

33 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

And where are your sources? And the OP's?

Which statement of mine do you want me to back up with sources?

[ArbitUHM]

How about providing some support for the premise of this entire meta-complaint thread that you apparently agree with? That "many people use that excuse [that it's F2P] to attempt debunking or countering valid arguments or feedback to the game"? Why aren't you asking for sources from the OP?

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

How about providing some support for the premise of this entire meta-complaint thread that you apparently agree with? That "many people use that excuse [that it's F2P] to attempt debunking or countering valid arguments or feedback to the game"? Why aren't you asking for sources from the OP?

Because a claim of 'many' is very easy to back up, and unnecessary in this case as I have already observed several cases myself while browsing these forums.

However, a statement that "this false argument almost always come up when non constructive feedback or personal attack occurs" is a much stronger claim, and one that my own experience doesn't validate, hence I asked for sources.

[ArbitUHM]

7 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Because a claim of 'many' is very easy to back up, and unnecessary in this case as I have already observed several cases myself while browsing these forums.

However, a statement that "this false argument almost always come up when non constructive feedback or personal attack occurs" is a much stronger claim, and one that my own experience doesn't validate, hence I asked for sources.

Well what trunks013 describes is what I've observed too, so I don't feel he should have to give any sources either.

Discussion is fun.

edit: in case it's not clear what I'm getting at here, it's that if we're going to hold one side of the discussion to the standard of providing sources, then all sides should be held to that standard, whether it validates you personal beliefs/experiences or not.

Edited December 29, 2016 by ArbitUHM

[Zamio]

16 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

You don't see this as a problem? People ask an opinion about a frame or weapon and I can go back, equip it, and give proper feedback about modding or how to use it. Other people who have to make a decision to keep it or not ultimately explain away why they didn't keep it. Because it's "mastery fodder", or  simply "it's garbage". And they only keep what's the most op or efficient. The meta is killing the game. It leaves no room for variety.

"Meta" is in every single game. 

Its not a problem for the payment model because 1. Its inconvenient enough to want to buy more slots 2. Its not bad enough to be completely tied into buying slots. You have to remember, this is a F2P game. DE need to eat. This is one of the best ways of generating play sales.

[ChuckMaverick]

13 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

Well what trunks013 describes is what I've observed too, so I don't feel he should have to give any sources either.

Well if that's what you've seen the there's no reason for him to give you sources, but that's irrelevant as it wasn't you that was requesting the sources.

If you want to ask the OP for sources then you are of course completely free to do so, I haven't argued against that at all.

[Zamio]

15 hours ago, Noamuth said:

Not everyone has time to grind for Era specific Relics, or even has enough standing with a Syndicate to get the Relic packs, and just about every endless Relic mission I run, at least one person says that ran out of Relics.

And it is grinding, it's just not the same to how it was. 

Rose tinted glasses to the max...

You gain Relics from the same place you do your regular farming though... How do you not have any Syndicate standing? Just run their missions, this is your own fault.

You can easily gain a stockpile of Relics by farming just like how you farmed before in the same places as before. Like really, their acquisition is not a problem that the Relic system has.

12 hours ago, Irorone said:

Except I've seen that used even under the Hema argument.

~100x cost increase on a single research project at a clan tier that can have up to 10 members.  Yet these are literally the "counterarguments" I saw when that math gets brought up.

"Oh what a clan has to work for something now"

"Maybe you shouldn't be a one man clan"

"Maybe you should cull your inactive members/downsize"

"Get a booster"

"Oh you want everything handed to you/now"

"It's a free game, you don't have to play"

"It's just one weapon you don't have to have it"

 

I have literally seen each and every one of these used to try and shutdown feedback. In a single thread even.

Maybe you shouldn't be a 1 man clan? Doesn't excuse the cost but you do know thats not a possibility DE were planning for when they made the clan system right?

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Zamio said:

Maybe you shouldn't be a 1 man clan? Doesn't excuse the cost but you do know thats not a possibility DE were planning for when they made the clan system right?

DE may not have been planning for solo clans when they designed the clan system, but they have known for a long time now that many solo clans exist, so they certainly can't claim to be ignorant of that fact or the effect that their decisions will have on those players' experience.

[Irorone]

12 minutes ago, Zamio said:

Rose tinted glasses to the max...

You gain Relics from the same place you do your regular farming though... How do you not have any Syndicate standing? Just run their missions, this is your own fault.

You can easily gain a stockpile of Relics by farming just like how you farmed before in the same places as before. Like really, their acquisition is not a problem that the Relic system has.

Maybe you shouldn't be a 1 man clan? Doesn't excuse the cost but you do know thats not a possibility DE were planning for when they made the clan system right?

Welp here's the thing.

My first clan was a relatively large clan but died SO hard that there was maybe four people contributing to the research project at the time.

After I switched to a solo clan it took me less time to go through all the research projects then it took for the four active members, including myself, to do that ONE project.

And if DE's "500 samples per person" was anywhere near accurate I'd have enough for three hemas and still have about ~200 samples left over.  Mind you that's still on the order of a 10x increase from previous.  They need to take a hard look at how research costs are determined if they're gonna start boosting resource costs anywhere near the magnitude they did with Hema.

[Zamio]

48 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Welp here's the thing.

My first clan was a relatively large clan but died SO hard that there was maybe four people contributing to the research project at the time.

After I switched to a solo clan it took me less time to go through all the research projects then it took for the four active members, including myself, to do that ONE project.

And if DE's "500 samples per person" was anywhere near accurate I'd have enough for three hemas and still have about ~200 samples left over.  Mind you that's still on the order of a 10x increase from previous.  They need to take a hard look at how research costs are determined if they're gonna start boosting resource costs anywhere near the magnitude they did with Hema.

Well, fair enough I suppose. DE should make Mut samples much more common and drop in like 10-25 per drop. That would make the grind soo much easier.

[Irorone]

1 minute ago, Zamio said:

Well, fair enough I suppose. DE should make Mut samples much more common and drop in like 10-25 per drop. That would make the grind soo much easier.

Sort of.  It would reduce the Hema grind but it would also make earlier research pretty trivial in a complete span of gameplay kind of way.

Personally I don't mind a hike as long as the numbers don't feel like Nef Anyo hacked my research UI.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, Zamio said:

You have to remember, this is a F2P game. DE need to eat.

Yes DE needs to eat, but it's arguably false to claim that DE relies directly and solely on our purchases for survival. 60% of DE was sold to Leyou. That said, DE is more than likely getting their paychecks courtesy of Leyou. DE is a moneymaker for Leyou, so really they're the ones that are keeping DE fed and clothed.

[Zamio]

3 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Yes DE needs to eat, but it's arguably false to claim that DE relies directly and solely on our purchases for survival. 60% of DE was sold to Leyou. That said, DE is more than likely getting their paychecks courtesy of Leyou. DE is a moneymaker for Leyou, so really they're the ones that are keeping DE fed and clothed.

Well, if you stopped buying plat, Leyou start wondering why they are keeping a failing company around..

[Mak_Gohae]

19 hours ago, IKenofoxI said:

I just wanted to say that warframe has a store that people can purchase items from. With people purchasing their product, for them their experience with this game would no longer be free.

They would have every right to make complains or voice their concerns.

If the complain is about some purchase things, sure.

But if it's not, it means nothing.

Quote

As with people who play this game for free, indeed while it's a free game some people spend over thousands of hours into this game, which shows the company their marketing potentials with dedicated players spending time into their game. 

I think the biggest reason people are playing is because it's free and a competent game.

 

Quote

Rather than dismissing legitimate concerns over the game just because it's a free game, I think these people like them need to realize the importance of feedback people are attempting to give to this game to further improve it's experience.  Tldr:No. It's a free game so stop complaining is a bad argument and needs to be stopped because it's regressive.

It's a valid argument when it comes to complaining about not getting stuff fast enough. It's a free game you play as much as you want whenever you want.

[MirageKnight]

Just now, Zamio said:

Well, if you stopped buying plat, Leyou start wondering why they are keeping a failing company around..

Then they would be asking why we're not buying plat / investing in their product...no? If we're not investing in their product because their product is faulty or unappealing due to decisions made by the people making that product...and they can't fix that....they're going to ditch said product and the people that make it. In this scenario, DE would be on its own again with very limited resources.

It sucks, but that's how large companies works.

[MagPrime]

2 hours ago, Zamio said:

Rose tinted glasses to the max...

You gain Relics from the same place you do your regular farming though... How do you not have any Syndicate standing? Just run their missions, this is your own fault.

You can easily gain a stockpile of Relics by farming just like how you farmed before in the same places as before. Like really, their acquisition is not a problem that the Relic system has.

You seem to have horribly misunderstood my post. 

At no point did I say that I'm suffering from a lack of standing or Relics, or even the knowledge of where to get them, I was speaking in the hypothetical about a group of people that don't.  Hence my use of "not everyone..."

I personally have hundreds of Relics and routinely max out my standing, as well as enough Void Traces to max out a large portion of my Relic stash.

As to the Relics vs. Keys; how you obtain them is roughly the same.  However, in my opinion, the overall grind has lessened since switching to the Relics.  Before, it would take me at least two weeks to obtain any of the new Prime items, now, it takes less than half that.  So the grind has improved because I'm spending less time in the void, wasting keys and drowning in Bronco Prime, Fang Prime or Mag Prime parts.  Due the nature of RNG, "the grind" is subjective because everyone experiences it differently. 

But on Topic; "it's F2P" is a useless response, in general, and doesn't facilitate discussion or problem solving. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Noamuth

[Rhekemi]

5 hours ago, trunks013 said:

I understand that the classic line "its a free game so stop complaining" can be annoying from an argument percpective.

But i feel the urge to point out that this false argument almost always come up when non constructive feedback or personal attack occurs. Like a reminder that we can do those super dump arguing both sides. 

Look at steve twitter you will see him answer something like "but its a free game i made for you" but this was an answer at an nasty personal attack from a guy saying the game is bad and he should get fired.

 

Honestly i think its not the first thing to solve. Once the other two would be solved this problem will most likely vanish be itself.

I don't know about it "almost always" being directed at that kind of feedback, and would go so far as to say that is not true.

But I do agree that in that context, the answer has its uses and I have seen it used in exactly that way.

The OP, however, only referred to constructive feedback.

Good point, though. I also like Steve's responses to non-constructive bashing overall.

4 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Except you haven't really pointed it out, just made an unsubstantiated statement.

Do you have sources to back up that claim?

He doesn't have to. It's an anecdotal point and his point does not refer to the OP.

I know it seems like he has to because he made an unsubstantiated claim, but you overlook the core of his point when zeroing in on that.

The Op and trunks, I believe, unintentionally exagerate the nature of the issues raised.

"It's a free game" is not always used to respond to poor feedback and attacks, and "It's a free game" (no matter how often it is leveled at constructive criticism and feedback) does not impede proper feedback.

In the face of proper feedback, the response is nonsense, and this topic is, therefore, a meta-complaint.

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

Yes DE needs to eat, but it's arguably false to claim that DE relies directly and solely on our purchases for survival. 60% of DE was sold to Leyou. That said, DE is more than likely getting their paychecks courtesy of Leyou. DE is a moneymaker for Leyou, so really they're the ones that are keeping DE fed and clothed.

Leyou didn't invest in DE for nothing. They invested in them because DE makes a popular game that we play.

When we play it less, which includes purchases, it still affects DE's livelihood (and Leyou to an extent).

Our actions still affect DE.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Rhekemi

[MagPrime]

7 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

"It's a free game" is not always used to respond to poor feedback and attacks, and "It's a free game" (no matter how often it is leveled at constructive criticism and feedback) does not impede proper feedback.

Agreed. No one is forced to respond to such comments and are fully capable of either ignoring the comment altogether, or placing the commenter on ignore. 

Seriously, there isn't some blinking box on your screen saying "YOU MUST RESPOND TO THIS!!!!"

If it's unconstructive, ignore it and move on. 

[ChuckMaverick]

26 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

He doesn't have to. It's an anecdotal point and his point does not refer to the OP.

I know it seems like he has to because he made an unsubstantiated claim, but you overlook the core of his point when zeroing in on that.

When he claims "almost always" it's in an attempt to legitimise use of the "it's a free game" argument, but it fails on both counts.

Not only is the "almost always" blatant hyperbole (unless proved otherwise, evidence please), but one invalid argument doesn't in any way 'counter' another.

While the OP's case, or at least the need to make a forum post about it, may seem trivial to some, I don't recall any exaggeration in it.

Edit: To add, the request for sources was an attempt to get the exaggeration toned down, in the interest of sensible debate.

Edited December 29, 2016 by ChuckMaverick

[Rhekemi]

30 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

When he claims "almost always" it's in an attempt to legitimise use of the "it's a free game" argument, but it fails on both counts.

He legitimized the phrase in a different context and one that does not refer to the OP's argument at all.

He cannot delegitimize the OP's post, and did not intend to. He clearly said it was annoying in an argument, but had a purpose when responding to a certain kind of feedback.

The OP wasn't talking about that kind of feedback, so what's the bother?

Quote

Not only is the "almost always" blatant hyperbole (unless proved otherwise, evidence please), but one invalid argument doesn't in any way 'counter' another.

That it ("almost always") is untrue and an exaggeration was never disputed by me.

Quote

While the OP's case, or at least the need to make a forum post about it, may seem trivial to some, I don't recall any exaggeration in it.

Do not mischaracterize what I have said.

The OP's post is completely unnecessary, and a meta-complaint.

The exaggeration is in the need to make such a post, since "it's a free game" can never impede proper feedback.

It can annoy you, and making a topic about it is complaining about members' responses to your posts and threads. A meta-complaint by definition.

Quote

Edit: To add, the request for sources was an attempt to get the exaggeration toned down, in the interest of sensible debate.

He wasn't trying to engage in debate. He simply raised a valid point, though he also exaggerated.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Zepp_]

I understand people's passion about this game.  I am also passionate about it.  After much soul searching and arduous research I have determined that this is a free game so stop complaining.

[Rakosta_Kai]

It's a free to play game.

If you dig the game... Buy something you like.

If you don't... Don't.

@Irorone I understand you but find myself hard-pressed to support the notion that avarice on a company's part is bad provided it's not ridiculous.

That said, the argument of, "It's a free game, stop complaining" falls flat when used on truly valid criticisms other than on things purchased (fairly echoes your opinion in fact).

On most of the other game though? It's a weak argument that will always have legs as long as the game's quality remains high.

The moment the quality drops or a competing game launches with similar quality though...

 

[Separius]

23 hours ago, NovusNova said:

Yes, stating "its a free game so you can't voice feedback" is not helpful for anyone when they are trying to voice their feedback.

However the only way change can come is when feedback, both positive and negative, is voice in a respectful and constructive way.

Insulting, trolling, bashing and swearing are not the way to voice negative feedback and only leads to possibly good feedback being ignored as the dev's can't decipher the feedback and likely won't be interested in reading feedback that is just a page of insults being thrown at them.

Yeah, this. It's also a good advice for most areas of life.

23 hours ago, IKenofoxI said:

*the OP's post*

Also, OP, if you are giving constructive criticism and those users who reply still give you a hard time (especially if they are being le ebin trolle ecksdee-s), remember that you are giving DE your feedback and not to the respondants so learn to ignore them.

 

[Irorone]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

It's a free to play game.

If you dig the game... Buy something you like.

If you don't... Don't.

@Irorone I understand you but find myself hard-pressed to support the notion that avarice on a company's part is bad provided it's not ridiculous.

That said, the argument of, "It's a free game, stop complaining" falls flat when used on truly valid criticisms other than on things purchased (fairly echoes your opinion in fact).

On most of the other game though? It's a weak argument that will always have legs as long as the game's quality remains high.

The moment the quality drops or a competing game launches with similar quality though...

 

That whole 10x-1000x cost increase on a research project while not having a similar plat price increase on the cash shop is exactly one of the major reasons the hema argument is a valid criticism.

Also people have been trying to say that there is no trend of increasing costs.  That's a flat out lie.  Look at any launch frame's/weapon's build requirements and compare to anything released in the last six months.  Even if you try to say that it's happening because of player progression the numbers don't add up for the kind of resource explosions we've seen in key instances i.e. sibear, vauban prime, and now hema.

Yet literally the same things that I've said get used as "counterarguments" to those examples are rampant on this forum.  Just look back even in this thread itself and you'll see examples of it being used.

[LordLokai]

ive spent enough cash on this game and played it long enough i have EVERY right to *@##$ if i want to... and nothing anyone else says will change that... =3