HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[kaliazane]

On 8.02.2017 at 2:32 AM, NativeKiller said:

It's amazing how some people just keep on saying "Just put in some effort."

 

All numbers and arguments seem to simply bounce off their thick skulls.

Yes, I can't believe DE didn't listen to all those "numbers and arguments" either.

It's almost like there is nothing here.

On 8.02.2017 at 3:25 AM, MirageKnight said:

only attack people, rather than their points.

Sweet hypocrisy of someone who had his posts removed just for that.

 

All things considered, there really is nothing here. If you guys can't convince few players here, I can't imagine how you are going to coinvince DE with all the facts and figures they have access to.

[Volinus7]

Let's start a new thread "We love hema grind, more like this in the future" and see how many people stand in the white side. Heh...

[ChuckMaverick]

9 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

All things considered, there really is nothing here. If you guys can't convince few players here, I can't imagine how you are going to coinvince DE with all the facts and figures they have access to.

There's really very little reason to draw any inference from a couple of posters in this thread sticking steadfastly to the "Hema costs are fine" line that DE won't listen to the criticism.

Have you seen the latest update thread?

Plenty of mutagen sample and Hema related posts, and not from 'regulars' in this thread.

The dissatisfaction with the Hema cost situation goes far beyond the few who are posting here.

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

There's really very little reason to draw any inference from a couple of posters in this thread sticking steadfastly to the "Hema costs are fine" line that DE won't listen to the criticism.

Have you seen the latest update thread?

Plenty of mutagen sample and Hema related posts, and not from 'regulars' in this thread.

The dissatisfaction with the Hema cost situation goes far beyond the few who are posting here.

Yes, people want to easily get stuff, no surprise there.

Don't worry, once new updates drop I'm sure there will be new reasons to be extremely displeased. Something tells me eximus units will become new Hema.

I enjoy long term goals and can see their resoning behind it, but honestly it makes no difference to me whether they change it or not. Just remember, it's them that you need to convince. 

[John89brensen]

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

 

Yes, but they really have to paint it as such just to keep this thing going.

 

 

Very nice video. What you trying to prove? That a 6 forma rifle with a Riven is great at killing? My 4 (iirc) forma Braton Prime is also great at killing, nothing ground breaking, but real fun.

For the time it requires you to invest in its research, Hema is not worth it. There are better weapons, that require far less effort.

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes, people want to easily get stuff, no surprise there.

I've already got the stuff, yet I'm still criticising the way the friction has been applied. It has nothing to do with it being 'easy' or not.

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Just remember, it's them that you need to convince. 

If there's one thing that companies (should) care about, it's customer satisfaction.

[kaliazane]

27 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Very nice video. What you trying to prove? That a 6 forma rifle with a Riven is great at killing? My 4 (iirc) forma Braton Prime is also great at killing, nothing ground breaking, but real fun.

For the time it requires you to invest in its research, Hema is not worth it. There are better weapons, that require far less effort.

I'd love to see how you do that with your braton prime or any other rifle actually. Could you provide video demonstrating it ? I can even send you 6 formas and catalyst, if thats a problem for you. Even ignoring unique healing on headshots, there is very few rifles that can deal this fast with high level armored enemies. Don't downplay good or maybe even great weapon. Hema requires very little effort to obtain if you are smart about it. But then again, you don't have hema and you never actually used it so you don't really know what it can do or even if it's fun.

24 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I've already got the stuff, yet I'm still criticising the way the friction has been applied. It has nothing to do with it being 'easy' or not.

If there's one thing that companies (should) care about, it's customer satisfaction.

Most of people complaining don't have it (my first quote for example) and considering how well warframe is doing, i'd say most of warframe community is satisfied with this game.

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by ViS4GE

[John89brensen]

13 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

I'd love to see how you do that with your braton prime

No i dont believe my Braton P can do that, its more of a guilty pleasure weapon. But im confident my Boltor prime can do this, or my Tonkor, or my Synoid Simulor. Hell if i want to make efficient murder interesting, i can just Savage Banshee them with my Jat Kittag, or use a CL dagger with a CC build, Fatal Teleport around. Dont even need to worry about health thanks to Life Strike. And guess what, all those previous methods for killing require less grind than Hema reseach. (edit: granted, expect for the vaulted weapons)

 

13 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

considering how well warframe is doing, i'd say most of warframe community is satisfied with this game.

Where are you getting this information? Are you talking about revenue? Do you have access to that information? Does whales spending money mean an unrelated bad desing decision is good? If we are talking about number of active players, according to Steam Charts, there has been a 5% drop in player count over the past 30 days.

I have yet to see a thread thanking DE for making the Hema reseach as expensive as it is, and most other people commenting, agreeing with that sentiment. There is a vast majority of the players that dont participate in the forums, so claiming that they are ok (or against) Hema research is absurd.

Edited February 10, 2017 by John89brensen

[kaliazane]

21 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

No i dont believe my Braton P can do that, its more of a guilty pleasure weapon. But im confident my Boltor prime can do this, or my Tonkor, or my Synoid Simulor. Hell if i want to make efficient murder interesting, i can just Savage Banshee them with my Jat Kittag, or use a CL dagger with a CC build, Fatal Teleport around. Dont even need to worry about health thanks to Life Strike. And guess what, all those previous methods for killing require less grind than Hema reseach.

They can't, trust me. But feel free to grab your boltor and prove me wrong.

Yes you can cheese content in many different ways, it have nothing to do with performance of weapons that we are discussing here.

Quote

 

Where are you getting this information? Are you talking about revenue? Do you have access to that information? Does whales spending money mean an unrelated bad desing decision is good? If we are talking about number of active players, according to Steam Charts, there has been a 5% drop in player count over the past 30 days.

I have yet to see a thread thanking DE for making the Hema reseach as expensive as it is, and most other people commenting, agreeing with that sentiment. There is a vast majority of the players that dont participate in the forums, so claiming that they are ok (or against) Hema research is absurd.

It's quite apparent if you look at steam charts. No, but it surely translates to that. No. There are always drops between new updates, now compare january of this year, to the previous one. Then once february concludes compare it to previous february.

Yes, most people don't understand what clan goals mean and would like to get everything very fast. Usually if you really don't like something you are going to log into forums and talk about it. If you are okay with it or don't care, not so much.

Edited February 10, 2017 by ViS4GE

[John89brensen]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's quite apparent if you look at steam charts. No, but it surely translates to that. No. There are always drops between new updates, now compare january of this year, to the previous one. Then once february concludes compare it to previous one.

January 2016 had a peak of 50777 players, January 2017 had a peak of 47134. Yes there are always drops between updates, and last update was in late November, and yet between November and December 2016, Warframe had a loss of 12000 players, from 68530 (currently the highest amount of players loged in) to 56812. Feel free to compare it to the previous year 37303 in November 2015, to 58502 in December. 

 

9 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes, most people don't understand what clan goals mean and would like to get everything very fast.

So you consider a grind a "clan goal"? What a brilliant decision, increasing reseach costs by 1000%, its clearly revolutionary. I mean dont mind all the negative effects this had in how clans behave, or all the negative feedback.

 

13 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Usually if you really don't like something you are going to log into forums and talk about it. If you are okay with it, not so much.

And yet here you are, liking the Hema, and defending its research. Yes people do log in to give feedback on things they feel are not working, is that so shocking?

[ChuckMaverick]

8 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

increasing reseach costs by 1000%

10000%

[kaliazane]

3 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

January 2016 had a peak of 50777 players, January 2017 had a peak of 47134. Yes there are always drops between updates, and last update was in late November, and yet between November and December 2016, Warframe had a loss of 12000 players, from 68530 (currently the highest amount of players loged in) to 56812. Feel free to compare it to the previous year 37303 in November 2015, to 58502 in December. 

January 2016 had average of  30709 players, January 2017 had average if 31734.

December 2015 had average of 33253 players, December 2016 had average of 33678.

It's doing great.

3 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

 

So you consider a grind a "clan goal"? What a brilliant decision, increasing reseach costs by 1000%, its clearly revolutionary. I mean dont mind all the negative effects this had in how clans behave, or all the negative feedback.

It is clan goal tho, hopefully we will get more of them with shadow of mordor system.

3 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

 

And yet here you are, liking the Hema, and defending its research. Yes people do log in to give feedback on things they feel are not working, is that so shocking?

What can I say, I enjoy helping fellow Tenno.

 

So just to be clear, you dropped your argument of Hema not being worth it due to weapon being bad. 

[John89brensen]

9 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

January 2016 had average of  30709 players, January 2017 had average if 31734.

December 2015 had average of 33253 players, December 2016 had average of 33678.

It's doing great.

It has barely the same number of players, i wouldnt say its great because of that. It is clear considering peak player activity, that Warframe has poor player retention capability. Maybe the fact that most of the game is one huge grind, and there is not much else to offer, influences this.

 

9 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It is clan goal tho, hopefully we will get more of them with shadow of mordor system.

A bad clan goal, and poorly received by a lot of people. They could have done nothing till the "shadow of mordor" thing drops by, because grinds like Hema are not engaging. 

 

9 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

So just to be clear, you dropped your argument of Hema not being worth it due to weapon being bad. 

No, i still consider it a bad weapon, i still dont like the stats. You can show me as many videos of a 6 forma + Riven Hema as you want. The weapon is just not worth the grind it requires.

Edited February 10, 2017 by John89brensen

[kaliazane]

9 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

It has barely the same number of players, i wouldnt say its great because of that. It is clear that considering peak player activity, that Warframe has poor player retention capability. Maybe the fact that most of the game is one huge grind, and there is not much more to offer, influences this.

It also had record breaking spikes, that combined with more average players who consistently play it would indicate it's doing great. It's certainly not end of the world, not even close to it.

Quote

 

A bad clan goal, and poorly received by a lot of people. They could have done nothing till the "shadow of mordor" thing drops by, because grinds like Hema are not engaging. 

That's your opinion and I respect that.

Quote

No, i still consider its a bad weapon, i still dont like the stats. You can show me as many videos of a 6 forma + Riven Hema as you want. Worst of all, is that the weapon is just not worth the grind it requires.

It's a weapon you never even used and you are saying it's bad. I get it that it's your opinion but you really arent basing it on anything.

It deals with very high level armored Heavy Gunners faster than 7 forma + riven tonkor, way faster at that. Saying "it's bad and not worth it because I said so" simply won't cut it. You won't convince DE with that, and that is what you should be focusing on.

Edited February 10, 2017 by ViS4GE

[John89brensen]

15 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It also had record breaking spikes, that combined with more average players who consistently play it would indicate it's doing great. It's certainly not end of the world, not even close to it.

Record breaking spikes? please clarify. The data is clear, Warframe maintains an average playerbase of 30k players, peaks of huge activity are followed by drops, but the average has been around 30k since the second dream, and even lower during April and November 2016. Does this mean that the game is dying? No, of course it doesnt, i never claimed that it did. 

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's a weapon you never even used and you are saying it's bad. I get it that it's your opinion but you really arent basing it on anything.

Im basing it on the amount of grind a clan needs to do to get a rifle with a gimmick. The Hema requires more grind than any other weapon before.

[Flirk2]

2 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

All things considered, there really is nothing here. If you guys can't convince few players here, I can't imagine how you are going to coinvince DE with all the facts and figures they have access to.

True. But not because you are right.

I just can't convince someone who ignores my arguments.

Be it a player, or a developer.

 

I'll even go as far as to say developers may have valid reasons to ignore the arguments against Hema.

For example, they could be not the ones calling the shots. The larger a company gets, the more administration staff it gets. Administration that sometimes had nothing to do with the initial success of the company...

But that's not making Hema less of a mistake.

The ''raining mutagen'' public relations disaster doesn't become less of a disaster because of it's administration and management origins as well.

What's more, if they just were honest with us, and were not treating their ''registered losers'' like mushrooms, they would get only about 10 times less flak from it.

That ''few runs with Nekros'' comment early on set up a really ugly tone, you know. With 1% drop chance that anyone with basic math skills and about 20 minutes of time to acquire  1 mission worth of data can calculate.

[Volinus7]

Nah there is no need to "convince" anyone here. Everybody naturally dislikes grinding. 

It's a failed logic if you try to convince someone to dislike something they already disliked.

[Ditto132]

10 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Don't worry, once new updates drop I'm sure there will be new reasons to be extremely displeased. Something tells me eximus units will become new Hema.

At least DE is still able to make changes from feedbacks to the eximus before releasing it. Unlike the Hema, claiming that there was a mistake but no reasonable action taken.

 

To add on...

8 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

I'll even go as far as to say developers may have valid reasons to ignore the arguments against Hema.

For example, they could be not the ones calling the shots. The larger a company gets, the more administration staff it gets. Administration that sometimes had nothing to do with the initial success of the company...

Thing goes horribly wrong when people who doesn't know what game is about, interfered with game development. And this is from years of experiences.
That is why some developers leave well-known company to be an indie developer.

8 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

The ''raining mutagen'' public relations disaster doesn't become less of a disaster because of it's administration and management origins as well.

Poor response without convincing evidence when there are hundred pages of counter arguments and suggestions, just doesn't cut it.

8 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

What's more, if they just were honest with us, and were not treating their ''registered losers'' like mushrooms, they would get only about 10 times less flak from it.

That ''few runs with Nekros'' comment early on set up a really ugly tone, you know. With 1% drop chance that anyone with basic math skills and about 20 minutes of time to acquire  1 mission worth of data can calculate.

Millions of "registered losers", how many are due to inactive and abandoned accounts? How many are duplicate accounts from the same person and maybe different platforms?
And if there were really that many players playing the game, why are the peaks not as high, especially since this game is time-consuming and rather grindy.
Shouldn't the number of concurrent players be higher? Especially with Hema's cost which "promote" clan goal. Doesn't seem to work, right?

8 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

That ''few runs with Nekros'' comment early on set up a really ugly tone, you know. With 1% drop chance that anyone with basic math skills and about 20 minutes of time to acquire  1 mission worth of data can calculate.

Come on... "few runs with Nekros"? If that is the case, people wouldn't even suggest full meta squad with boosters and still took hours... and most clans would already completed the research...

[(PSN)Silverback73]

11 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

It also had record breaking spikes, that combined with more average players who consistently play it would indicate it's doing great. It's certainly not end of the world, not even close to it.

That's your opinion and I respect that.

It's a weapon you never even used and you are saying it's bad. I get it that it's your opinion but you really arent basing it on anything.

It deals with very high level armored Heavy Gunners faster than 7 forma + riven tonkor, way faster at that. Saying "it's bad and not worth it because I said so" simply won't cut it. You won't convince DE with that, and that is what you should be focusing on.

V, you know at this point you simply aren't going to swing interpretive viewpoints on player activity one way or another.

The two key pieces of statistical data we aren't privy to:

Real $ spent per player account.

Total number of players who spend Real $ relative to the entire player base.

These are the key numbers;

How many.  How much.

I know I'll get roasted for this, but as a business:

Paying Players > F2P Players who pull Plat out of the Economy > Everyone else.

My point?

What makes sense from a business perspective may not make sense to many players

[Hithrenluin]

Is clear that the Hema cost feels more like a punishment. is not like is extremely difficult to get, is extremely annoying to do. Seems poorly idealized, I dunno if they tried to do something "unique" or "different" placing this kind of cost with this kind of resource but is definitely punishing.

I believe this initiative is to improve the game itself, so I hope the best outcome =/

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I know I'll get roasted for this, but as a business:

Paying Players > F2P Players who pull Plat out of the Economy > Everyone else.

My point?

What makes sense from a business perspective may not make sense to many players

That's a very shallow way to look at the F2P business model, and I hope and believe DE are more savvy than that.

Once the F2P players start to leave your game, the paying players aren't far behind.

[Volinus7]

50 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That's a very shallow way to look at the F2P business model, and I hope and believe DE are more savvy than that.

Once the F2P players start to leave your game, the paying players aren't far behind.

Under normal circumstances of F2P P2W yes Freebies will leave first, but also you mustn't underestimate the power of whales. I've seen an official server of heavy garapon p2w mmo survived more than 2 years by just around 50 pure whales. Freebies get rekted in a microsecond is normal, all of them uninstalled at mach 3 speed after experienced cancer war in pvp.

In warframe model however is a game that is easy to enter but harder to leave. Freebies don't get rekted at Lightspeed by whales in pvp and pvp is not mandatory. The ones to leave first are paying players who think the game devolved by each update and feel kinda betrayed because they paid to fund the game. Freebies will keep rotating around until the end and some hardcore freebies won't leave easily because they invested so much time. 

From what I read in this forum, some people can't distinguish fun from being narcotized by the game. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Volinus7

[magusat999]

Isn't the infested the infested wherever they go? How come this only drops in Derelict? What story or lore explains mutagen mass only dropping in Derelict? makes absolutely no sense.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That's a very shallow way to look at the F2P business model, and I hope and believe DE are more savvy than that.

Once the F2P players start to leave your game, the paying players aren't far behind.

Certainly it is up to DE to pull in F2P players and give them a gaming experience that will cause a certain player base to reward them with real $.

But that is only one type of paying player.  

And yes, public relations is an Artform.  

We are all special little snowflakes.

As to your last sentence, I'd need to see data to back it up per causation/correlation.

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

As to your last sentence, I'd need to see data to back it up per causation/correlation.

You're unlikely to find any hard data to back this up as it's not something that games publishers are going to share, but here's a games developer's view...